Wales squad to go on Pacific Islands tour

by international198 Thu 02 Mar 2017, 2:38 pm

1. Wyn Jones (Scarlets)
2. Ken Owens (Scarlets) (captain)
3. Rhodri Jones (Ospreys)
4. Jake Ball (Scarlets)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys)
6. Sion Bennett (Cardiff Blues)
7. Nic Cudd (Newport Gwent Dragons)
8. Taulupe Faletau (Bath)
9. Aled Davies (Scarlets)
10. Rhys Patchell (Scarlets)
11. Steffan Evans (Scarlets)
12. Scott Williams (Scarlets)
13. Jonathan Davies (Scarlets)
14. George North (Northampton)
15. Rhys Preistland (Bath)

16. Emyr Phillips (Scarlets)
17. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues)
18. Samson Lee (Scarlets)
19. Luke Charteris (Bath)
20. James Davies (Scarlets)
21. Gareth Davies (Scarlets)
22. Dan Jones (Scarlets)
23. Jamie Roberts (Scarlets)

by Shifty Fri 03 Mar 2017, 7:40 pm

Most of the first team will be available as their so poor. We are by far the 4th best British team.

by Guest Fri 03 Mar 2017, 9:44 pm

Shifty wrote:Most of the first team will be available as their so poor. We are by far the 4th best British team.

England
Scotland
???
Wales

by Gwlad Sat 04 Mar 2017, 1:15 am

One hopes the OP is ~~wumming~~ touring too

by Gooseberry Sat 04 Mar 2017, 8:04 am

I think he's including jersey Griff

by Guest Sat 04 Mar 2017, 9:14 am

I was thinking of putting that, Gooseberry. Then I remembered that Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of Man, etc are not part of Britain.

by Blueschief Sat 04 Mar 2017, 9:46 am

There's me thinking Jamie Roberts plays for Quins ... When did he sign for Scarlets?

by Guest Sat 04 Mar 2017, 1:21 pm

Good point! Actually, you can tell he's a Scarlets fan. Only 2 Ospreys players but 1000 Scarlets players. Sheesh!

by Shifty Sat 04 Mar 2017, 5:11 pm

Griff wrote:
Shifty wrote:Most of the first team will be available as their so poor. We are by far the 4th best British team.

England
Scotland
???
Wales

Cornwall

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 06 Mar 2017, 10:35 am

international198 wrote:1. Wyn Jones (Scarlets)
2. Ken Owens (Scarlets) (captain)
3. Rhodri Jones (Ospreys)
4. Jake Ball (Scarlets)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys)
6. Sion Bennett (Cardiff Blues)
7. Nic Cudd (Newport Gwent Dragons)
8. Taulupe Faletau (Bath)
9. Aled Davies (Scarlets)
10. Rhys Patchell (Scarlets)
11. Steffan Evans (Scarlets)
12. Scott Williams (Scarlets)
13. Jonathan Davies (Scarlets)
14. George North (Northampton)
15. Rhys Preistland (Bath)

16. Emyr Phillips (Scarlets)
17. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues)
18. Samson Lee (Scarlets)
19. Luke Charteris (Bath)
20. James Davies (Scarlets)
21. Gareth Davies (Scarlets)
22. Dan Jones (Scarlets)
23. Jamie Roberts (Scarlets)

by Shifty Sun 19 Mar 2017, 9:41 pm

Sadly Robin Mcbryde is going to lead the tour, so if you look at the last Japan tour it will probably be 20 new caps and a load of players pushing 30 who are squad members of regional teams, who most of us won't know who they are. He might even throw in a 17 year old from the Welsh Premiership just for the hell of it like last time.

Though these may come into contention:

1 Nicky Smith / Wyn Jones
2 Kristian Dacey / Sam Parry
3
4 Adam Beard / Macauley Cook / Matthew Screech
5 Rory Thornton / Rynard Landman (eligible yet?)
6 Ellis Jenkins / Olly Cracknell
7 Josh Navidi / Nic Cudd
8 Dan Baker / Tom Phillips
9 Lloyd Williams
10 Sam Davies / Matthew Morgan / Dan Jones
11 Eli Walker / Dafydd Howells
12 Tyler Morgan / Jack Dixon
13 Cory Allen / Owen Watkin (back in April?)
14 Keelan Giles / Hallam Amos
15 Dan Evans / Gareth Anscombe / Tom Prydie

Others:
Jordan Williams (bristol) - I like him
Dan Thomas - Gloucester, openside
Luke Hamilton, leicester, flanker
owen williams, leicester, fly half
Sam lewis, worcester, flanker openside

long shots:
callum bradbury - huge lock from cardiff blues academy
ryhs carre - 20stone prop from blues

by majesticimperialman Sun 19 Mar 2017, 9:55 pm

Shifty wrote:Sadly Robin Mcbryde is going to lead the tour, so if you look at the last Japan tour it will probably be 20 new caps and a load of players pushing 30 who are squad members of regional teams, who most of us won't know who they are. He might even throw in a 17 year old from the Welsh Premiership just for the hell of it like last time.

Maybe they will give a start to all the new players that did not get a look in this 6ns.

Because Wales stuck to the tried and tested team.

The same team that took Wales to FiFth Place in this years 6ns.

That is just above Italy by the way.

by Shifty Mon 20 Mar 2017, 11:20 am

Well it's funny the one time Gatland did really well in a world cup he threw caution to the wind and picked a load of kids just before the tournament. He seems to of become very risk adverse, but it's causing us to go backwards.

by Shifty Mon 20 Mar 2017, 3:08 pm

Just a head up, but Wales are playing Samoa in Apia, and a final decision on where the Tonga game will be played will be made in October.

Wales will NOT play Fiji. Scotland will go there instead after visiting Australia.

by Gwlad Mon 20 Mar 2017, 3:21 pm

Shifty wrote:Just a head up, but Wales are playing Samoa in Apia, and a final decision on where the Tonga game will be played will be made in October.

Wales will NOT play Fiji. Scotland will go there instead after visiting Australia.

? Touring this summer not next

by Shifty Mon 20 Mar 2017, 10:15 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Shifty wrote:Just a head up, but Wales are playing Samoa in Apia, and a final decision on where the Tonga game will be played will be made in October.

Wales will NOT play Fiji. Scotland will go there instead after visiting Australia.

? Touring this summer not next

Oh yeah... Doh

by Gwlad Mon 20 Mar 2017, 10:46 pm

my understanding shifty is that a decision has been made to play it in NZ (so the few Welsh boys not on Lions tour can back up if required) Whistle

by Gwlad Tue 21 Mar 2017, 3:41 am

Evans, Jones
Baldwin, Dacey
Francis, Lee
Ball, Charteris, Thornton
Moriarty, King, Cracknell, Young, Baker
Davies, Williams
Sam Davies, Owen Williams
Williams, Morgan, Allen, Dixon
Walker, Prydie, Amos, Morgan, Hewitt, Giles.

Gethin will probably want to go assuming not Lion.

by wayne Tue 21 Mar 2017, 7:40 am

Gwlad wrote:Evans, Jones
Baldwin, Dacey
Francis, Lee
Ball, Charteris, Thornton
Moriarty, King, Cracknell, Young, Baker
Davies, Williams
Sam Davies, Owen Williams
Williams, Morgan, Allen, Dixon
Walker, Prydie, Amos, Morgan, Hewitt, Giles.

Gethin will probably want to go assuming not Lion.

Gwlad pretty good squad there, I'd have Smith before Jones in the front row, Parry before either of the hookers, wouldn't mind instead of Baldwin, I would have either of the other Scarlet scrum halves before Gareth Davies and I believe Beck would be a better option before any of those centres.

by chris_501 Tue 21 Mar 2017, 8:32 am

Gwlad wrote:Evans, Jones
Baldwin, Dacey
Francis, Lee
Ball, Charteris, Thornton
Moriarty, King, Cracknell, Young, Baker
Davies, Williams
Sam Davies, Owen Williams
Williams, Morgan, Allen, Dixon
Walker, Prydie, Amos, Morgan, Hewitt, Giles.

Gethin will probably want to go assuming not Lion.

I would take Parry and Dee as my hookers, Beck as a centre, Steff Evans as a back 3 player. I would also take Patchell.

by wayne Tue 21 Mar 2017, 8:36 am

chris_501 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Evans, Jones
Baldwin, Dacey
Francis, Lee
Ball, Charteris, Thornton
Moriarty, King, Cracknell, Young, Baker
Davies, Williams
Sam Davies, Owen Williams
Williams, Morgan, Allen, Dixon
Walker, Prydie, Amos, Morgan, Hewitt, Giles.

Gethin will probably want to go assuming not Lion.

I would take Parry and Dee as my hookers, Beck as a centre, Steff Evans as a back 3 player. I would also take Patchell.

Yes Walker will not go, too injury prone unfortunately, I also wouldn't take Prydie or Morgan, totally forgot about Evans good choice.

by Gooseberry Tue 21 Mar 2017, 8:53 am

No Underhill?

by Gwlad Tue 21 Mar 2017, 2:25 pm

Well Howley has heavily indicated that this will be a development tour i.e. a tour where we get beaten by sides that wouldn't normally get anywhere near us so i expect that some big names will get left at home. Baldwin and Charteris for example.

I would definitely lie to see more of Patchell and quite rightly Evans needs to be given a run.

by Shifty Tue 21 Mar 2017, 7:16 pm

Gooseberry wrote:No Underhill?

He's English and is moving to England at the end of the season I think.

by Guest Tue 21 Mar 2017, 8:47 pm

Shifty wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:No Underhill?

He's English and is moving to England at the end of the season I think.

He's WUMming.

by Guest Tue 21 Mar 2017, 8:50 pm

wayne wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Evans, Jones
Baldwin, Dacey
Francis, Lee
Ball, Charteris, Thornton
Moriarty, King, Cracknell, Young, Baker
Davies, Williams
Sam Davies, Owen Williams
Williams, Morgan, Allen, Dixon
Walker, Prydie, Amos, Morgan, Hewitt, Giles.

Gethin will probably want to go assuming not Lion.
Gwlad pretty good squad there, I'd have Smith before Jones in the front row, Parry before either of the hookers, wouldn't mind instead of Baldwin, I would have either of the other Scarlet scrum halves before Gareth Davies and I believe Beck would be a better option before any of those centres.

Agree with both of you, largely. Although I do think Rob Evans does stand a pretty good chance of making the Lions Tour, he's had a very good Six Nations, and loosehead isn't particularly a position of strength. I think we need to have a look at hookers outside of Dacey who is never going to be good enough, and Baldwin who's had his time. Only take one of them, and try and bed in younger, better players at the same time. I think James Davies and Navidi stand a good chance of touring, and I think both deserve a shot. I wouldn't take Baker.

Gareth Davies just needs game time, his decision making and composure is poor at Test level now that he's no longer relying on the novelty of finally playing (RWC '15), but that'll come with experience. He's still only 26, so should be hitting his prime. Not the time to lose patience with him. Jonathan Evans does deserve a shot though, he's been a revelation at the Scarlets. Aled Davies will never quite be good enough for Test rugby in my opinion. I like the look of the young Blues scrum half, Tomos, not Lloyd. Talent depth looks good at 9.

I'd take Steff Evans over Eli Walker, and probably look to start Beck (who's still only 26!?) in the midfield. Dixon has a bulk we don't really have, but he probably misses out. You know that they'll likely take Jamie Roberts on Tour, and I can sort of see the rationale: we left Ryan Jones and James Hook behind when we toured Japan, and the team clearly lacked leaders. We're also going to be taking youngsters who will struggle to get momentum over the gainline and who could struggle physically. Jamie Roberts could be both captain and a useful midfield option around which we can look to create some attacking rugby. I think Scott Williams stands an outside chance of making the Lions Tour. Might be called up as an injury replacement (likewise Roberts...!? Shocked

).

I wouldn't take Prydie. I also think at least one of Walker, Hewitt, Giles, and Morgan misses out. Too many nippy but weak players in our 3/4s there. We'll need some bulk. Could Howells make the tour? Has good speed, but also a bit more size to him than those four? The likelihood is they'll take Cuthbert to 'play himself into form'. After all, he is still only 26, and if the game does break up, he's probably the best open field finisher Wales have...as long as he just has to run. Including Evans, I think Cuthbert, Amos, Giles, and either Morgan for versatility or Howells make up the back 3.

In many ways, there really aren't that many young, exciting players putting their hands up. Even amongst that above squad, most are in their mid 20s now. I also think we have to consider the likelihood of a few surprise omissions from the Lions, and McBryde won't repeat the mistakes of last time and take a 'development' team.

We should go out there to 'develop' the likes of Sam Davies, Gareth Davies, Hal Amos...players who- should- be around the Welsh squad at least beyond the next RWC, and are for the most part second choice in their positions. It's then also a chance for Giles etc. to integrate on tour, and finally get some game time in a less pressurised environment than the AIs or 6Ns. It's not the time to cap a Dafydd Howells to Japan equivalent.

You can also guarantee that players like Anscombe and Lydiate will be under consideration as well. I think most Welsh fans will be disappointed with how few promising youngsters are selected, but I sort of see the rationale behind it if it works (win the games and give a few select/the most promising youngsters a shot).

by Gwlad Tue 21 Mar 2017, 9:32 pm

Hibbard may have a chance too

by Guest Tue 21 Mar 2017, 9:35 pm

33 years old and just signed a new contract with Gloucester. Think there would have to be a serious injury crisis for that to happen.

I'd be pretty happy with Parry and Dee. Probably take Parry and Baldwin to be honest for a bit of consistency.

by Gwlad Tue 21 Mar 2017, 9:58 pm

miaow wrote:33 years old and just signed a new contract with Gloucester. Think there would have to be a serious injury crisis for that to happen.

I'd be pretty happy with Parry and Dee. Probably take Parry and Baldwin to be honest for a bit of consistency.

by the same token why take Lydiate, if it is a pure development tour then Baldwin, Ball, Anscombe, Charteris, G Davies, Williams, should all be left out. Just take a purely development side with a skipper like Thornton or Moriarty.

by Guest Tue 21 Mar 2017, 10:34 pm

I don't think they're in the same boat.

Lydiate's only just turned 29, has captained Wales relatively recently, and is playing club rugby in Wales. He's going to be available for the next RWC, even if he doesn't get selected, whereas Hibbard certainly isn't. Having had a long injury lay off, he could also do with the game time, and having been a midweek Lions captain, brings leadership to the squad that- frankly- Hibbard wouldn't.

Of course it shouldn't be "purely" a development squad, I never suggested that. I do think however that there should be a cut off between old players who can make the 2019 RWC, and old players who won't. So I'd be tempted to leave Charteris and take Bradley Davies if fit, but I think Charteris will go because of the Lions and his ability to slot in there if needed.

Gareth Anscombe is 25
Jake Ball is 25
Gareth Davies is 26

Those are hardly old players, and still very much ages where I'd say they need 'developing'.

Lloyd Williams is 27, albeit I'd leave him as there are better younger options, and- at best- he's 3rd choice.
Baldwin is 28, but I'd be tempted to take him for the sake of experience, and take Parry as the best young prospect.

We'll get hammered if we don't take experience for most of the first XV, but Hibbard's the wrong side of 30, and frankly not good enough, either.

by Gwlad Tue 21 Mar 2017, 11:34 pm

Anscombe is poo and Davies and Ball have peaked.

I'd start this

Evans Baldwin Francis
Ball Thornton
Lydiate Capt, Youngs Moriarty
Davies, Davies
Hewitt, S Williams, Beck, Evans
Patchell

Bench
Jones Dacey Lee, King, Cracknell, No 9?, Dixon, Amos.

Its a great balance with lots of experience in the pack and lots of new blood. Backs are inexperienced but ground will be hard and I want runners.

by Shifty Wed 22 Mar 2017, 8:20 am

Based on Wales this 6N we may find most of the first choice are in the Pacific Islands anyway.
If that is the current Wales squad, and we assume Green players are going on the Lions and Yellows are possibles. Then we can work from whats left. Then we assume Wales will take 27 men based on their last Lions parity tour to Japan in 2013.

Scott Baldwin
Kristian Dacey
Ken Owens
Scott Andrews
Rob Evans
Tomas Francis
Rhodri Jones
Samson Lee
Nicky Smith
Jake Ball
Luke Charteris
Cory Hill
Alun Wyn Jones
Rory Thornton
Olly Cracknell
James King
Ross Moriarty
Justin Tipuric
Sam Warburton
Thomas Young
Taulupe Faletau
Aled Davies
Gareth Davies
Rhys Webb
Dan Biggar
Sam Davies
Owen Williams
Jonathan Davies
Jamie Roberts
Scott Williams
Alex Cuthbert
Steffan Evans
Ashton Hewitt
George North
Leigh Halfpenny
Liam Williams

So this is what we have left for the PAcific tour:

15 Steffan Evans (age 22, 0 caps)
14 Alex Cuthbert - Don't moan at me, Howley picks the team not me. (age 26, 45 caps)
13 Scott Williams (age 26, 45 caps)
12 Jamie Roberts (Captain) (age 30, 90 caps)
11 Ashton Hewitt (age 22, 0 caps)
10 Owen Williams (age 25 0 caps)
9 Gareth Davies (age 26, 24 caps)
8 Talupe Faletau (Make sure we bring him back from Tonga, don't want him jumping off a ship like Manu Tuilagi did). (age 26, 65 caps)
7 Ross Moriarty (age 22, 16 caps)
6 James King (age 26, 11 caps)
5 Cory Hill (age 25, 5 caps)
4 Jake Ball (age 25, 25 caps)
3 Tom Francis (age 24, 21 caps)
2 Scott Baldwin (age 28, 32 caps)
1 Rob Evans (age 24, 16 caps)

16 Nicky Smith (age 22, 11 caps)
17 Kristian Dacey (age 27, 3 caps)
18 Scott Andrews (age 27, 13 caps)
19 Rory Thornton (age 22, 0 caps)
20 Olly Cracknell (age 22, 0 caps)
21 Aled Davies (age 24, 0 caps)
22 Sam Davies (age 23, 6 caps)
23 Hallam Amos (age 22, 5 caps)

Extras:
Rhodri Jones - Prop (age 25, 14 caps)
Adam Beard - Lock (age 21, 0 caps)
Tyler Morgan - Center (age 21, 3 caps)
Keelan Giles - Wing (age 19, 0 caps)

I think that will pretty much be it.

by wayne Wed 22 Mar 2017, 9:37 am

Gwlad wrote:Anscombe is poo and Davies and Ball have peaked.

I'd start this

Evans Baldwin Francis
Ball Thornton
Lydiate Capt, Youngs Moriarty
Davies, Davies
Hewitt, S Williams, Beck, Evans
Patchell

Bench
Jones Dacey Lee, King, Cracknell, No 9?, Dixon, Amos.

Its a great balance with lots of experience in the pack and lots of new blood. Backs are inexperienced but ground will be hard and I want runners.

Gwlad you start off and say Ball has peaked and then you select him in your team? In the back 5 you select there is only 1 recognised lineout jumper Thornton. Has Ball been used as a target in this 6N, I don't think so and neither has Moriarty, only on very rare times has Lydiate for us (Ospreys) and never for Wales or Dragons, wouldn't know about Young. No 10 coverage on the bench, I don't think so.

by exile jack Wed 22 Mar 2017, 11:47 am

Personally,i hope all the Ospreys follow Tandy and make themselves unavailable for the Summer headhunting tour.Something is broken with Welsh international coaching and highly promising young players should avoid being ruined by the current coaching regime.

by Guest Wed 22 Mar 2017, 12:21 pm

Gwlad wrote:Anscombe is poo and Davies and Ball have peaked.

I'd start this

Evans Baldwin Francis
Ball Thornton
Lydiate Capt, Youngs Moriarty
Davies, Davies
Hewitt, S Williams, Beck, Evans
Patchell

Bench
Jones Dacey Lee, King, Cracknell, No 9?, Dixon, Amos.

Its a great balance with lots of experience in the pack and lots of new blood. Backs are inexperienced but ground will be hard and I want runners.

Really? Jake Ball's had his best ever season at both club and Test level, he played very well against England in particular. It's worrying if you'd give up on a 26 year lock as having 'peaked', particularly as we don't have many of his kind of physical brutes in Wales to do the hard yards.

Out of interest, if you think they've peaked, why start them?

by Guest Wed 22 Mar 2017, 12:39 pm

Shifty wrote:Based on Wales this 6N we may find most of the first choice are in the Pacific Islands anyway.
If that is the current Wales squad, and we assume Green players are going on the Lions and Yellows are possibles. Then we can work from whats left. Then we assume Wales will take 27 men based on their last Lions parity tour to Japan in 2013.

Scott Baldwin
Kristian Dacey
Ken Owens
Scott Andrews
Rob Evans
Tomas Francis
Rhodri Jones
Samson Lee
Nicky Smith
Jake Ball
Luke Charteris
Cory Hill
Alun Wyn Jones
Rory Thornton
Olly Cracknell
James King
Ross Moriarty
Justin Tipuric
Sam Warburton
Thomas Young
Taulupe Faletau
Aled Davies
Gareth Davies
Rhys Webb
Dan Biggar
Sam Davies
Owen Williams
Jonathan Davies
Jamie Roberts
Scott Williams
Alex Cuthbert
Steffan Evans
Ashton Hewitt
George North
Leigh Halfpenny
Liam Williams

So this is what we have left for the PAcific tour:

15 Steffan Evans (age 22, 0 caps)
14 Alex Cuthbert - Don't moan at me, Howley picks the team not me. (age 26, 45 caps)
13 Scott Williams (age 26, 45 caps)
12 Jamie Roberts (Captain) (age 30, 90 caps)
11 Ashton Hewitt (age 22, 0 caps)
10 Owen Williams (age 25 0 caps)
9 Gareth Davies (age 26, 24 caps)
8 Talupe Faletau (Make sure we bring him back from Tonga, don't want him jumping off a ship like Manu Tuilagi did). (age 26, 65 caps)
7 Ross Moriarty (age 22, 16 caps)
6 James King (age 26, 11 caps)
5 Cory Hill (age 25, 5 caps)
4 Jake Ball (age 25, 25 caps)
3 Tom Francis (age 24, 21 caps)
2 Scott Baldwin (age 28, 32 caps)
1 Rob Evans (age 24, 16 caps)

16 Nicky Smith (age 22, 11 caps)
17 Kristian Dacey (age 27, 3 caps)
18 Scott Andrews (age 27, 13 caps)
19 Rory Thornton (age 22, 0 caps)
20 Olly Cracknell (age 22, 0 caps)
21 Aled Davies (age 24, 0 caps)
22 Sam Davies (age 23, 6 caps)
23 Hallam Amos (age 22, 5 caps)

Extras:
Rhodri Jones - Prop (age 25, 14 caps)
Adam Beard - Lock (age 21, 0 caps)
Tyler Morgan - Center (age 21, 3 caps)
Keelan Giles - Wing (age 19, 0 caps)

I think that will pretty much be it.

I think you're largely right in terms of how many first team players will be available, and therefore selected. Maybe on or two changes.

Faletau, if fit, is nailed on for the Lions squad. There's no outstanding 8 for the Lions other than the obvious two. Vunipola will tour, as will Faletau. Heaslip looks unlikely, Stander will cover 8 and 6, I can't see a Scottish 8 going, and I don't think Moriarty is at the level of Stander, O'Mahony, even Robshaw just yet of being a defensive nuisance who can play across the back row if needed. If Stander earns a Test start at 6, with his ball carrying ability, I think Faletau becomes favourite to start the Tests at 8.

Sam Davies is a lot better than Owen Williams.

I'd hazard a guess and say they'll give a scrum half other than Aled Davies a shot at being Gareth Davies's back up, presumably Jonathan Evans given his form. They selected Lloyd Williams and then Tomos Williams for the AIs without playing the latter, Aled in the 6Ns. Evans was overlooked at the Dragons, perhaps a bit harshly, but it would be very unfair not to call him up after the season he's had. He's been the best 9 at the Scarlets, and deserves to be on the bench for this tour.

Is Hewitt better than Giles?

I'd add Scott Williams into you list of yellow potential players for the Lions. Francis above Lee, too, in that regard. He's had a very good season for Wales, really improved his performances in open play, and adds a lot more than Lee, as well as looking a better scrummager.

Likewise, we also have to consider the likelihood of injury ruling out quite a few players from both the Lions and the Welsh Tours. We have Lydiate and Bradley Davies as notable squad players coming back from long term injuries, both of whom would probably be selected if they are deemed fit.

I don't think we're particularly well stocked at second row if we're having to take Rory Thornton, Adam Beard, and Cory Hill. Likewise, I'd be worried if Ross Moriarty is the third best openside in Wales, and Ellis Jenkins, James Davies, and even Josh Navidi covering 6/7/8 would be a better fit.

by Gwlad Wed 22 Mar 2017, 6:16 pm

miaow wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Anscombe is poo and Davies and Ball have peaked.

I'd start this

Evans Baldwin Francis
Ball Thornton
Lydiate Capt, Youngs Moriarty
Davies, Davies
Hewitt, S Williams, Beck, Evans
Patchell

Bench
Jones Dacey Lee, King, Cracknell, No 9?, Dixon, Amos.

Its a great balance with lots of experience in the pack and lots of new blood. Backs are inexperienced but ground will be hard and I want runners.

Really? Jake Ball's had his best ever season at both club and Test level, he played very well against England in particular. It's worrying if you'd give up on a 26 year lock as having 'peaked', particularly as we don't have many of his kind of physical brutes in Wales to do the hard yards.

Out of interest, if you think they've peaked, why start them?

Balance. We need to win, we've seen before what happens when we send the pups on tour. I still think the team is very developmental but there is a solid seam of experience particularly up front that will be needed in hugely confrontational games. For me Ball is a journeyman, somewhat like Brad Davies i think he has reached his potential and we need to look for an x factor elsewhere while obviously keeping him solidly in contention. I don't think he's cooked bu ti do think we won't see anything more than we have seen from him so far.

by Shifty Wed 22 Mar 2017, 10:27 pm

miaow wrote:I think you're largely right in terms of how many first team players will be available, and therefore selected. Maybe on or two changes.

Faletau, if fit, is nailed on for the Lions squad. There's no outstanding 8 for the Lions other than the obvious two. Vunipola will tour, as will Faletau. Heaslip looks unlikely, Stander will cover 8 and 6, I can't see a Scottish 8 going, and I don't think Moriarty is at the level of Stander, O'Mahony, even Robshaw just yet of being a defensive nuisance who can play across the back row if needed. If Stander earns a Test start at 6, with his ball carrying ability, I think Faletau becomes favourite to start the Tests at 8.

Sam Davies is a lot better than Owen Williams.

I'd hazard a guess and say they'll give a scrum half other than Aled Davies a shot at being Gareth Davies's back up, presumably Jonathan Evans given his form. They selected Lloyd Williams and then Tomos Williams for the AIs without playing the latter, Aled in the 6Ns. Evans was overlooked at the Dragons, perhaps a bit harshly, but it would be very unfair not to call him up after the season he's had. He's been the best 9 at the Scarlets, and deserves to be on the bench for this tour.

Is Hewitt better than Giles?

I'd add Scott Williams into you list of yellow potential players for the Lions. Francis above Lee, too, in that regard. He's had a very good season for Wales, really improved his performances in open play, and adds a lot more than Lee, as well as looking a better scrummager.

Likewise, we also have to consider the likelihood of injury ruling out quite a few players from both the Lions and the Welsh Tours. We have Lydiate and Bradley Davies as notable squad players coming back from long term injuries, both of whom would probably be selected if they are deemed fit.

I don't think we're particularly well stocked at second row if we're having to take Rory Thornton, Adam Beard, and Cory Hill. Likewise, I'd be worried if Ross Moriarty is the third best openside in Wales, and Ellis Jenkins, James Davies, and even Josh Navidi covering 6/7/8 would be a better fit.

I agree with every single point you have made. The one thing I will say though is I used Robert Howleys Six Nations squad as a starting point. As clearly those players are the highest ones on Howleys mind, as their in the squad at the moment Figured out how many players he's likely to take on the 2 match tour, using the previous 2 match Japan tour as a guide. Then added in the final few places based on which positional vacancies were missing in the squads comparison.

I wasn't justifying the selection of players, i.e. Francis over Lee, or Aled over Gareth, as such. I'm simply looking at what Howley is doing and his selections, then filling in the blanks.

by Guest Thu 23 Mar 2017, 9:14 am

Shifty wrote:I wasn't justifying the selection of players, i.e. Francis over Lee, or Aled over Gareth, as such. I'm simply looking at what Howley is doing and his selections, then filling in the blanks.

No of course, I get it. It's a useful thing to do. The temptation amongst the fans is to start looking at the youngsters and the 3rd and 4th choices and try to piece them altogether in a starting 15, when the reality is the squad will mostly be 1st and 2nd choices with one or two there for 'development'.

by chris_501 Thu 23 Mar 2017, 9:54 am

1. Evans (Smith)
2. Parry
3. Francis (Lee)
4. Ball
5. Charteris
6. Cracknell
7. Young
8. Moriarty

9. G. Davies
10. S. Davies
11. Giles
12. S. Williams (Roberts)
13. Beck
14. Amos
15. S. Evans

16. Dee
17. W. Jones
18. Andrews
19. Hill
20. E. Jenkins
21. J. Evans
22. O. Williams
23. Hewitt

The players bracketed are in case first choice are on Lions duty.

I don't see the benefit of taking the likes of Bradley Davies, Lydiate or Gethin. The only exceptions are Charteris and Roberts in if Scott Williams gets called up to the Lions as forwards and back leaders.

Players like Francis, Moriarty, Ball should be given the chance to continue cementing their first XV places that they have worked so hard to earn.

by bedfordwelsh Sun 26 Mar 2017, 5:16 am

Smith Parry Francis
Charteris Ball
Cracknell Moriarty Young

G Davies S Davies
Evans O Williams S Williams Hewitt
Halfpenny

by Shifty Sun 26 Mar 2017, 12:23 pm

chris_501 wrote:I don't see the benefit of taking the likes of Bradley Davies, Lydiate or Gethin. The only exceptions are Charteris and Roberts in if Scott Williams gets called up to the Lions as forwards and back leaders.

Lydiate won't be going anyway he's out till the start of next season at the earliest. Owen Watkin the Ospreys center may make it though.

by wayne Sun 26 Mar 2017, 1:38 pm

Shifty wrote:
chris_501 wrote:I don't see the benefit of taking the likes of Bradley Davies, Lydiate or Gethin. The only exceptions are Charteris and Roberts in if Scott Williams gets called up to the Lions as forwards and back leaders.

Lydiate won't be going anyway he's out till the start of next season at the earliest. Owen Watkin the Ospreys center may make it though.

Alyn, Owen wont be going either if our pre match PC this week is anything to go by, because Gruff said he will not be available to us this season and he's told me the same personally.

by Guest Sun 26 Mar 2017, 3:14 pm

I worry about a bit of a massacre out there. We struggle at home in the AI games against supposed 'lesser' nations when we play a developmental or 2nd string side. Away to a PI team, who we traditionally struggle against anyway due to the physicality they bring, requires the strongest team possible IMO. Yes, this is the time to experiment. But I don't want essentially a step on from Wales U20 with a just few old heads in there. I think the starting sides should be made up mainly from the best of the rest left behind by the Lions with a sprinkling of inexperienced players who are showing form in the Pro12. It's that old adage for me: they won't learn anything from a mauling.

by Shifty Sun 26 Mar 2017, 3:56 pm

wayne wrote:
Shifty wrote:
chris_501 wrote:I don't see the benefit of taking the likes of Bradley Davies, Lydiate or Gethin. The only exceptions are Charteris and Roberts in if Scott Williams gets called up to the Lions as forwards and back leaders.

Lydiate won't be going anyway he's out till the start of next season at the earliest. Owen Watkin the Ospreys center may make it though.

Alyn, Owen wont be going either if our pre match PC this week is anything to go by, because Gruff said he will not be available to us this season and he's told me the same personally.

Ok thanks Wayne, I read he was due back in April.

by wayne Sun 26 Mar 2017, 5:48 pm

Shifty wrote:
wayne wrote:
Shifty wrote:
chris_501 wrote:I don't see the benefit of taking the likes of Bradley Davies, Lydiate or Gethin. The only exceptions are Charteris and Roberts in if Scott Williams gets called up to the Lions as forwards and back leaders.

Lydiate won't be going anyway he's out till the start of next season at the earliest. Owen Watkin the Ospreys center may make it though.

Alyn, Owen wont be going either if our pre match PC this week is anything to go by, because Gruff said he will not be available to us this season and he's told me the same personally.

Ok thanks Wayne, I read he was due back in April.

Yes you are right, because April was the return date originally and up to the last month or so, don't know if he has had a relapse?

by irnbrew Sun 26 Mar 2017, 11:00 pm

Did none of you see the Ospreys game going on that evidence about 8 of those put for the tour on here should not be considered

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 9:03 am

irnbrew wrote:Did none of you see the Ospreys game going on that evidence about 8 of those put for the tour on here should not be considered

Based on 1 game? They're 3rd in the league and in with a good shout of the play offs. Why ignore a season worth of results and focus on 1 game? It would be like saying lets take the whole Dragons team if they win 1 game towards the end of the season (unlikely!)!

by Shifty Mon 27 Mar 2017, 5:03 pm

I think the Ospreys have a VERY young squad, nearly all of their players come from their academy. So just because they lost one game to Treviso doesn't really mean those young players have no Welsh future. Quite frankly the Ospreys rarely sign players outside their development squad, though if they do they are normally gems no other teams have noticed or want, though if they turn out to be any good they soon leave us. Kahn Fotuali'i being an example, he was off everyone's radar, yet joined us and was a great success.

by Guest Mon 27 Mar 2017, 8:25 pm

With Howley away with the Lions this Summer, and McBryde leading the team on this Tour, I wonder where that leaves us in terms of coaching if the succession plan doesn't go as anticipated.

If Gatland decided to not return to Wales after the Lions for whatever reason, and if Dai Young doesn't want to job, considering so few people like Howley in Wales, who would/could be the next Welsh coach?

Taking it even further, to 2019, which is more likely: if Dai Young rules himself out, other than the current assistant coaches, who takes over from Gatland?

To my mind, there is basically no-one putting their hand up to show they are looking like a competent Welsh coach who could step up to international level, which leaves us looking overseas again.

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