6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

ITALY VS SCOTLAND

Date: Saturday 18th March
Venue: Murrayfield Edinburgh
Kick Off: 12h30
Referee:  Pascal Gauzere (France)
TV Coverage: Live on BBC

Scotland and Italy will get proceedings underway on the final weekend of the 2017 Six Nations Championship when they meet at the BT Murrayfield Stadium in Edinburgh on Saturday 18th March.

Scotland ended a run of nine straight Six Nations defeats when they beat Italy 36-20 in the 2016 Championship.

Scotland and Italy have contested a total of 26 rugby test matches since their first meeting in 1996. Scotland have won 18 of those matches, whilst Italy have won 8 matches.

Teams

Scotland

TBC

Italy

TBC

Was hoping it would be Monica.

Italy for the clean sweep that nobody wants.

Thought us scotland fans could do with a bit of theorapy by coming on here and looking forward instead of back... Italy.

With all the injuries potentially arrayed against us, can we still expect a TBP?

I still think we will win the game, at home we have looked strong and I have a feeling the lads will want to bury the memory of what happened on Saturday pretty quickly.

Well, i think we might struggle to get a team out

Plus I think Brown may not be available....

They definitely owe Vern and the departing coaches, not to mention the fans, a performance.

The sheer number of injuries does worry me somewhat though, we could be missing half a team if they are all ruled out. I am fully expecting some announcements of some squad re-enforcements at some point today.

R!skysports wrote:

Plus I think Brown may not be available....

By the current law interpretations, landing a tipped player on his back is a yellow. That's what the officials were mulling over during the TMO interval at the time and they got it right. I don't think there will be any further sanction.

BigGee wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

Plus I think Brown may not be available....

By the current law interpretations, landing a tipped player on his back is a yellow. That's what the officials were mulling over during the TMO interval at the time and they got it right. I don't think there will be any further sanction.

and so what do I know, he has just been cited!

BigGee wrote:

BigGee wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

Plus I think Brown may not be available....

By the current law interpretations, landing a tipped player on his back is a yellow. That's what the officials were mulling over during the TMO interval at the time and they got it right. I don't think there will be any further sanction.

and so what do I know, he has just been cited!

I'd suspect 3 weeks. However if it's been dealt with on the pitch I thought that was case closed? He's got a terrific disciplinary record so this will be his first offence, I'd expect a bit of leniency.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

BigGee wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

Plus I think Brown may not be available....

By the current law interpretations, landing a tipped player on his back is a yellow. That's what the officials were mulling over during the TMO interval at the time and they got it right. I don't think there will be any further sanction.

and so what do I know, he has just been cited!

I'd suspect 3 weeks. However if it's been dealt with on the pitch I thought that was case closed? He's got a terrific disciplinary record so this will be his first offence, I'd expect a bit of leniency.

3 weeks will cost him the Sarries game as well, which would be very harsh.

Not sure I see the logic of the citing, as you say it was dealt with on the pitch. If it goes to a hearing though, he will inevitably get a longer ban, which makes a bit of a lottery of the directives they give to the refs.

Just have to see how it pans out. It was not a good tackle and there was a price to be paid.

BigGee wrote:

BigGee wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

Plus I think Brown may not be available....

By the current law interpretations, landing a tipped player on his back is a yellow. That's what the officials were mulling over during the TMO interval at the time and they got it right. I don't think there will be any further sanction.

and so what do I know, he has just been cited!

I would hope that it is not taken further, as you say - it was dealt with on the pitch and he landed on his back.

It was bad, but under the current laws not a red

But I think they will give him a ban

Can cite anything that they deem worthy of a red, if it's been dealt with or not.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:...However if it's been dealt with on the pitch I thought that was case closed?.

Don't think it's been that way for a while now. If the citing officer thinks a red card should have been shown, then he can call attention to it regardless of how it was dealt with at the time.

R!skysports wrote:I would hope that it is not taken further, as you say - it was dealt with on the pitch and he landed on his back.

It was bad, but under the current laws not a red

But I think they will give him a ban

Not a red in terms of the specific rules for that sort of tackle maybe, but any tackle can be considered dangerous. A late tackle with a drive into the ground probably fits, even if he landed on his back (upper back with head contact soon after).

Is there any fear of Italy winning this one? Playing those horrible ruck / tackle tactics?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is there any fear of Italy winning this one? Playing those horrible ruck / tackle tactics?

Not using that tactic, our pick and go game, even against England was pretty good. We made some good ground around the fringes of the rucks, that's the sort of territory Watson excels in.

What's more of a worry is if Hogg and Seymour can't get over their head knocks. Seymour got absolutely rattled so he is more of a concern at the moment I think. I still didn't see what even happened to Hogg.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still didn't see what even happened to Hogg.

Went back to look at this because I saw someone claim Itoje punches him (Itoje is nowhere near him).

Hogg is standing around, near no player, and crouches down holding his nose. I went back to watch the previous 3 minutes or so and he seemed absolutely fine and took no contact.

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still didn't see what even happened to Hogg.

Went back to look at this because I saw someone claim Itoje punches him (Itoje is nowhere near him).

Hogg is standing around, near no player, and crouches down holding his nose. I went back to watch the previous 3 minutes or so and he seemed absolutely fine and took no contact.

I think he got clattered by Itoje a few plays previous to that one. He seemed alright at the time, but then just took a knee after the ball went into touch.

BigGee wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still didn't see what even happened to Hogg.

Went back to look at this because I saw someone claim Itoje punches him (Itoje is nowhere near him).

Hogg is standing around, near no player, and crouches down holding his nose. I went back to watch the previous 3 minutes or so and he seemed absolutely fine and took no contact.

I think he got clattered by Itoje a few plays previous to that one. He seemed alright at the time, but then just took a knee after the ball went into touch.

Maybe, must be a significant amount of time beforehand then.

They need to start planning a team without Brown for this game. He is going to be in bits about all of this in any case, whatever the outcome and may not be in the right place to play in any case.

In some respects hooker is the least of our worries, as Ford will slot back in with little problem and McInally will fill in the bench spot. That will weaken us a lot less than some of the other gaps we may have to fill.

Scottrf wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still didn't see what even happened to Hogg.

Went back to look at this because I saw someone claim Itoje punches him (Itoje is nowhere near him).

Hogg is standing around, near no player, and crouches down holding his nose. I went back to watch the previous 3 minutes or so and he seemed absolutely fine and took no contact.

I think he got clattered by Itoje a few plays previous to that one. He seemed alright at the time, but then just took a knee after the ball went into touch.

Maybe, must be a significant amount of time beforehand then.

Itoje's a big bloke, but a clean player as far as I've seen I wouldn't think he would throw a cheap punch.

Hogg was only on for 20 or so minutes but seeing him strip Lawes of the ball in contact was a thing of beauty. We really missed him on Saturday.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still didn't see what even happened to Hogg.

Went back to look at this because I saw someone claim Itoje punches him (Itoje is nowhere near him).

Hogg is standing around, near no player, and crouches down holding his nose. I went back to watch the previous 3 minutes or so and he seemed absolutely fine and took no contact.

I think he got clattered by Itoje a few plays previous to that one. He seemed alright at the time, but then just took a knee after the ball went into touch.

Maybe, must be a significant amount of time beforehand then.

Itoje's a big bloke, but a clean player as far as I've seen I wouldn't think he would throw a cheap punch.

Hogg was only on for 20 or so minutes but seeing him strip Lawes of the ball in contact was a thing of beauty. We really missed him on Saturday.

I don't think he punched him, I have heard on the other forum about a hand off. I would go back and look but I am way to traumatised.

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

BigGee wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

Plus I think Brown may not be available....

By the current law interpretations, landing a tipped player on his back is a yellow. That's what the officials were mulling over during the TMO interval at the time and they got it right. I don't think there will be any further sanction.

and so what do I know, he has just been cited!

I'd suspect 3 weeks. However if it's been dealt with on the pitch I thought that was case closed? He's got a terrific disciplinary record so this will be his first offence, I'd expect a bit of leniency.

3 weeks will cost him the Sarries game as well, which would be very harsh.

Not sure I see the logic of the citing, as you say it was dealt with on the pitch. If it goes to a hearing though, he will inevitably get a longer ban, which makes a bit of a lottery of the directives they give to the refs.

Just have to see how it pans out. It was not a good tackle and there was a price to be paid.

All a citing means is they want another look at it. They can deem that a penalty/yellow card was sufficient, or they may deem it a red card offence and add a ban.

Football has a ridiculous clause were a citing commissioner cannot overrule a referee if he has dealt with it on the pitch and included it in his report, but rugby allows the citing commissioner another look if he thinks it merits one, and he can overrule the decision if he thinks it was wrong.

It's right on the borderline for me. Any better/worse than Warburton in 2011 - which was probably the watershed moment for "tip" tackles?

I heard that Hogg got an accidental bsh to the face from one of the Gray boys!

Hogg could be back but Seymour looks less likely.

We've got maitland to cover one of them if needed!

We need to put italy to the sword and look to beat them by 40 odd to half a dozen! If we lose to Italy then we can't say we've had a good 6ns as realistically we'd finish 5th!

tigertattie wrote:I heard that Hogg got an accidental bsh to the face from one of the Gray boys!

Didn't Jonny punch Seymour too? Not happy with his teammates

i agree that we should still have enough to win this but I'm a bit more worried about this game than I was after the Wales game.

Italy have looked good in patches but are yet to put an 80 minute performance together (sound familiar??) and I really hope it doesn't happen this weekend.

Personally I don't think Brown should start even if he isn't given a ban - he really lost his head on Saturday and it is a quick turnaround. Ford is the calm presence that we need and will help deal with the Italian scrum.

RDW_Scotland wrote:i agree that we should still have enough to win this but I'm a bit more worried about this game than I was after the Wales game.

Italy have looked good in patches but are yet to put an 80 minute performance together (sound familiar??) and I really hope it doesn't happen this weekend.

Personally I don't think Brown should start even if he isn't given a ban - he really lost his head on Saturday and it is a quick turnaround. Ford is the calm presence that we need and will help deal with the Italian scrum.

This is a tough one. The article he just had published through the week about depression etc. Would you drop him? Or pick him again to try and give his confidence a boost. He'd been great all 6N and IMO doesn't deserve to be dropped.

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still didn't see what even happened to Hogg.

Went back to look at this because I saw someone claim Itoje punches him (Itoje is nowhere near him).

Hogg is standing around, near no player, and crouches down holding his nose. I went back to watch the previous 3 minutes or so and he seemed absolutely fine and took no contact.

I think he got clattered by Itoje a few plays previous to that one. He seemed alright at the time, but then just took a knee after the ball went into touch.

Maybe, must be a significant amount of time beforehand then.

Itoje's a big bloke, but a clean player as far as I've seen I wouldn't think he would throw a cheap punch.

Hogg was only on for 20 or so minutes but seeing him strip Lawes of the ball in contact was a thing of beauty. We really missed him on Saturday.

I don't think he punched him, I have heard on the other forum about a hand off. I would go back and look but I am way to traumatised.

Itoje scrags Hogg above the collar to the side / back of the head with a trailing arm. Under the new directives, I'd say that could quite easily be construed as reckless and potentially could've been a yellow. A split second later, thanks partly to Itoje's intervention, Hogg gets Haskells forearm / fist smashing into his fist coming in near the side of his head
https://twitter.com/CammyBlack/status/841252200357720064

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:i agree that we should still have enough to win this but I'm a bit more worried about this game than I was after the Wales game.

Italy have looked good in patches but are yet to put an 80 minute performance together (sound familiar??) and I really hope it doesn't happen this weekend.

Personally I don't think Brown should start even if he isn't given a ban - he really lost his head on Saturday and it is a quick turnaround. Ford is the calm presence that we need and will help deal with the Italian scrum.

This is a tough one. The article he just had published through the week about depression etc. Would you drop him? Or pick him again to try and give his confidence a boost. He'd been great all 6N and IMO doesn't deserve to be dropped.

A fair point but I think we have to be careful before bringing his admission about mental health problems into it - we don't know him and don't know what he's like, and how much this will really affect him. That's not a dig at anyone here by the way

I was thinking purely from a rugby PoV - he will be gutted after what he did and has a discipliinary hearing to go through this week, meaning he'll miss training time and will not know if he is going to be available to play this weekend anyway.

Ford is fit, on form and free to play - get him running first choice at training all week and play him.

Itoje connection to me looks a penalty, nothing more on the shoulder. Haskell contact it's hard to really judge from that view/picture quality.

I think that was penalised as a High tackle at the time. Which is fair enough. It was a high tackle but at least we know what happened.

It was, but watching it back feel there should have been more. Reminds me a bit of that Saracnes game when Barritt went high with a trailing arm causing the tackled player to cop a shoulder from the prop. Prop got sent off.
Not that I'm suggesting either here were worthy of a red, but a yellow, yes.

Haskell then? Itoje doesn't even appear to make contact with the head to me.

I would say Itoje would have been a harsh yellow, but I am not quite sure what Haskell is trying to do.

There is no reason to have the hands anywhere near that area (that high). Depending on additional angles, and a better picture, that could be a citing

I just saw the Hogg incident on Twitter, it was definitely Haskell and not Itoje that did the damage and he certainly did clatter him.

A forearm to the head with some force, that surely should have been more than just a penalty. The citing officer seems to have overlooked that one unfortunately.

GLove39 wrote:It was, but watching it back feel there should have been more. Reminds me a bit of that Saracnes game when Barritt went high with a trailing arm causing the tackled player to cop a shoulder from the prop. Prop got sent off.
Not that I'm suggesting either here were worthy of a red, but a yellow, yes.

I don't know about that, a forearm to the head with force. Under the much ignored new regulations, that would potentially have been a red. This is exactly the sort of incident that they were designed to avoid happening and here we are with another concussed player.

robbo277 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

BigGee wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

Plus I think Brown may not be available....

By the current law interpretations, landing a tipped player on his back is a yellow. That's what the officials were mulling over during the TMO interval at the time and they got it right. I don't think there will be any further sanction.

and so what do I know, he has just been cited!

I'd suspect 3 weeks. However if it's been dealt with on the pitch I thought that was case closed? He's got a terrific disciplinary record so this will be his first offence, I'd expect a bit of leniency.

3 weeks will cost him the Sarries game as well, which would be very harsh.

Not sure I see the logic of the citing, as you say it was dealt with on the pitch. If it goes to a hearing though, he will inevitably get a longer ban, which makes a bit of a lottery of the directives they give to the refs.

Just have to see how it pans out. It was not a good tackle and there was a price to be paid.

All a citing means is they want another look at it. They can deem that a penalty/yellow card was sufficient, or they may deem it a red card offence and add a ban.

Football has a ridiculous clause were a citing commissioner cannot overrule a referee if he has dealt with it on the pitch and included it in his report, but rugby allows the citing commissioner another look if he thinks it merits one, and he can overrule the decision if he thinks it was wrong.

It's right on the borderline for me. Any better/worse than Warburton in 2011 - which was probably the watershed moment for "tip" tackles?

From memory Warburton dropped his man, whereas Brown drove through the contact. If that is the case, for me the Brown incident was worse.

Prior to Saturday's game I almost posted a comment that we should enjoy one of the last occasions where the Scotland team pretty much picked itself: this may not happen too often under the Tombola Meister.

However, the downside of Vern's consistency in selection tends to be a consistency in tactics. I think it's pretty obvious that Eddie Jones comprehensively outsmarted him at the weekend, just as Joe Schmidt has done in the past.

Hopefully next season it'll be us springing the surprises.

And I won't be surprised if on Saturday we see

15. Nomaits
14. Rozza
13. Jones the Tries
12. Furra Linee ( I've said for a while now that Dunbar is playing at 95%, wether through lack of fitness or, like Matt Scott, it's taking time to build up post injury confidence)
11. The Mighty Tim (You ain't seen nuthin like..)
10. Meatball
9. All One Price
8. Barcs
7. Hamish From The Glen
6. Tackle Monster (Batman should take a break and keep working on his lineout throwing, you don't want to lose a 100% record)
5. Gray
4. Gray
3. Ragnar
2. Chinhook
1. Shrek

Would that team beat Italy? If we stop their backs getting the ball, yes. Eventually.

cascough wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

BigGee wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

Plus I think Brown may not be available....

By the current law interpretations, landing a tipped player on his back is a yellow. That's what the officials were mulling over during the TMO interval at the time and they got it right. I don't think there will be any further sanction.

and so what do I know, he has just been cited!

I'd suspect 3 weeks. However if it's been dealt with on the pitch I thought that was case closed? He's got a terrific disciplinary record so this will be his first offence, I'd expect a bit of leniency.

3 weeks will cost him the Sarries game as well, which would be very harsh.

Not sure I see the logic of the citing, as you say it was dealt with on the pitch. If it goes to a hearing though, he will inevitably get a longer ban, which makes a bit of a lottery of the directives they give to the refs.

Just have to see how it pans out. It was not a good tackle and there was a price to be paid.

All a citing means is they want another look at it. They can deem that a penalty/yellow card was sufficient, or they may deem it a red card offence and add a ban.

Football has a ridiculous clause were a citing commissioner cannot overrule a referee if he has dealt with it on the pitch and included it in his report, but rugby allows the citing commissioner another look if he thinks it merits one, and he can overrule the decision if he thinks it was wrong.

It's right on the borderline for me. Any better/worse than Warburton in 2011 - which was probably the watershed moment for "tip" tackles?

From memory Warburton dropped his man, whereas Brown drove through the contact. If that is the case, for me the Brown incident was worse.

Under the current guidelines, the Warburton tackle should only have been a yellow as well. The French player landed on his back as well and was not even injured. The guidelines have changed over the past 6 years, quite rightly to try and make them a bit more objective. It was very controversial at the time and as many refs would not have given a red as would have.

Tom English, as always, is spot on - not only was Saturday's result an embarrassment but it probably ruined a lot of players' chances for the Lions tour.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39249944

Without turning this into yet another Lions thread I was thinking about this last night and going through what my 38 man squad would be - the only Scottish player I had in it was Hogg, with one of Seymour/Maitland having a potential shout.

One of the Grays stands a chance in what is a horrifically competitive 2nd row (Jonny hasn't been himself the last 2 games) but I certainly don't see any of our front or back rowers going.

Laidlaw may go as 3rd scrum half - a good tourist to have and potential leader of the midweek team - and Huw Jones is maybe an outside bet with a bit of X-factor about him. You could make compelling cases for other players in these positions though.

We obviously shouldn't forget our fantastic winds over Ireland and Wales but it would be a major surprise if we got more than 3 or 4 players selected.

Are we still 5th? https://rawling.github.io/wr-calc/

nickj wrote:Are we still 5th? https://rawling.github.io/wr-calc/

Bizarre as it may sound after Saturday's thrashing, depending on if both England and ourselves win at the weekend and by what margin, I believe we can overtake Ireland and go up to fourth in the rankings.

Blimey. Really? That makes me feel better already.

The England-Scotland result had no ranking impact. With the home adjustment England were too far ahead?

Hard to argue with Tom English assessment and the Lions are not going to be overstocked with Scots again. I have found that hard to take on previous tours, but in the face of such a dominant English team just now (unlike when Woodward took all his old and past it mates last time to NZ) it will be much harder to argue against it.

Hoggy will still go and should still start baring injury. One Grey will probably go (at the moment RG is playing better than JG) and maybe one winger. Huw Jones, as RDW said could be the bolter (there is usually one).

We may pick up a few more spots as injury subs bearing in mind that we will be nearby in Oz around the same time. It will be scraps from the table for us though and probably all we deserve.

nickj wrote:Blimey. Really? That makes me feel better already.

Yeah,sure I heard or read that somewhere in the aftermath. We're only a point behind Ireland currently so that can swing in one match. Given the probable lack of players and damaged confidence then winning (fingers crossed) with any sort of clear margin on Saturday may not be easy for us but I do expect England to carry on their winning run.

MacKnocked-on wrote:

nickj wrote:Are we still 5th? https://rawling.github.io/wr-calc/

Bizarre as it may sound after Saturday's thrashing, depending on if both England and ourselves win at the weekend and by what margin, I believe we can overtake Ireland and go up to fourth in the rankings.

Which kind of supports the theory that the rankings are a load of tosh!

Still if we get a top 4 seeding foe the WC, I am not going to complain.

While I think it will not be the case, this was just one game

You would hope the year of good and getting better performances would have an impact

England were worst in the first 40 mins against Italy (Just) but could turn that around

We beat (easily) Wales and beat Ireland

None of that should be discounted

England get the most representation (as deserved)

But us, Wales (Who have been poor for a year) should be similar

From a lions POV in terms of countries playing and winning against their peers

England are 2/2
Scotland are 2/3
Wales are 1/3
Ireland are 1/2

Based on that the only team who have won more games against their Lions peers are England. I'd still be confident of 7 tourists.

Hogg, Seymour, R or J Gray, Watson, Jones, Russell (needs a big game against Italy and Sarries), Laidlaw.

I think those are all fairly realistic. Lets not forget how well we played against the other teams. One Good result doesn't wash out the bad and one bad result doesn't wash out the good.

Honestly I don't think Russell has the composure and decision making to go. A talent, but so many mistakes.

Scottrf wrote:Honestly I don't think Russell has the composure and decision making to go. A talent, but so many mistakes.

Sounds like Gregor Townsend. It's also worth remembering Russel has only been a pro rugby player for 3 years!