Scotland v England, Murrayfield, Sat 8th Feb, 17:00

by yappysnap Sun 02 Feb 2014, 9:32 am

Thought I'd start a thread to discuss next weeks game.

ENGLAND

England head coach Stuart Lancaster has kept faith with the side which lost to France and named an unchanged line-up for Saturday's match against Scotland.
Gloucester's Jonny May starts on the wing despite breaking his nose nine minutes into the 26-24 loss in Paris.
Courtney Lawes will be in the second row after his cheekbone bruising eased, while Danny Care and Owen Farrell form the half-back partnership.
"They're determined to put last week's result behind them," said Lancaster.
England will be hoping to avoid a third successive Test defeat, having lost to New Zealand in the autumn and France in the opening weekend of the Six Nations.
Scotland, however, were well beaten by Ireland on Sunday have not prevailed in the Calcutta Cup since their 15-9 win at Murrayfield in 2008.
"Scotland will be hugely motivated by their defeat in Dublin and, as we found two years ago, Murrayfield is a tough place to play," added Lancaster, who began his England reign with a 13-6 win against Scotland in 2012.
May is not expected to wear a protective face mask when he wins his third cap in Edinburgh.
Luther Burrell, who scored on his debut at the Stade de France, will make his second Test appearance at centre, while Jack Nowell takes up the right-wing spot for what will also be his second cap.
Wasps prop Matt Mullan will travel as the 24th man.

England XI v Scotland: Mike Brown (Harlequins, 22 caps), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 1 cap), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 2 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 20 caps), Danny Care (Harlequins, 43 caps), Joe Marler (Harlequins, 16 caps), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 51 caps), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 44 caps), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 15 caps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 26 caps), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 24 caps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 21 caps), Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 6 caps)
Replacements: Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 11 caps), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, 2 caps), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 16 caps), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 13 caps), Brad Barritt (Saracens, 17 caps), Alex Goode (Saracens, 14 caps)

Scotland

Scots team:

1.grant
2.ford
3.low
4.swinson
5.hamilton
6.wilson
7.fusaro
8.denton
9.laidlaw
10.weir
11.lamont
12.scott
13.dunbar
14.seymor
15 hogg

by Scrumpy Sun 02 Feb 2014, 10:12 am

How long do we give 36?

by **Ozzy3213** Sun 02 Feb 2014, 10:17 am

I thought 36 was poor. I've seen nothing from him so far at international level to suggest that he is the answer at 12. What the solution is I don't know, but I would be tempted to move Burrell inside one and try something different at 13.

by Tiger/Chief Sun 02 Feb 2014, 10:45 am

How injured is Jonny May, I'd be very tempted to move him inside to 13 and play Burrell at 12, Twelvetrees as a distributer just isn't working!

by yappysnap Sun 02 Feb 2014, 10:51 am

Agree with Ozzy apart from Twelvetree's game against Scotland last year he's failed to deliver. And unlike other's who've just underperformed while still doing their basics he's genuinely causing issues for the backs with his passing.

Not sure if another new centre is needed though. Just stick with Barritt/Burrell until Manu is back and then shift Burrell inside one. If we do want another 13 then it should really either be JJ or Trinder as they've both at least been around the squad.

by **Ozzy3213** Sun 02 Feb 2014, 11:02 am

Tiger/Chief wrote:How injured is Jonny May, I'd be very tempted to move him inside to 13 and play Burrell at 12, Twelvetrees as a distributer just isn't working!

This is my view also.

by yappysnap Sun 02 Feb 2014, 11:28 am

How much 13 has May actually played? And how good has he been?

by ChequeredJersey Sun 02 Feb 2014, 11:46 am

...Daly at 13? Anyone?

by little_badger Sun 02 Feb 2014, 11:53 am

I have defended 12Trees but he really hasn't stepped up for a while now. May's nose looked pretty broken so I'm guessing he is out. Can we really afford to try another centre pairing?? Though if we do I would love it to be Burrell and Daly!! Or:

21. Youngs/Dickson/Wiggy (not a lot in it) 22.Ford 23. Daly - covers 13/fullback

With 12Trees and Burrell given another go.

Whatever he does, he can't drop Nowell, aside from the first bit I thought he made ground and tackled very well.

by Scrumpy Sun 02 Feb 2014, 3:40 pm

36 has had a few games now and it just isn't working.

by Barney McGrew did it Sun 02 Feb 2014, 4:11 pm

Brad is solid, organized, defensive choice who can sometimes surprise people with the occasional decent break. He plays a somewhat limited game, very well.

12T was brought in for his playmaking, something he has had plenty of opportunity to show he hasn't got at test level. When you play 12T you're playing a poorer version of Brad - what is the point now that Brad's back? How many opportunities does he merit?

Stewie has spent far too much time on him. If he wanted an attacking exciting centre he should've been developing players like Eastmond or the like.

by yappysnap Sun 02 Feb 2014, 5:14 pm

So should we be more optimistic about next week on todays performance.

Or will Scotland get up for the English?

by majesticimperialman Sun 02 Feb 2014, 5:16 pm

I think we need Ford on the bench at least for next week. If may is injured and not avalible would like too see Watson given a chance.

Who else is their that can play/cover full back. Not a fan of Mike Brown playing on the wing. And Goode needs to work on his fitness.

by **RDW** Sun 02 Feb 2014, 5:32 pm

Ford needs dropped, Hamilton dropped (swinson and Hamilton together are too sluggish - need gray in there), Matt Scott back.

Standard practice with Scotland is to play crap then have a stormer the next week - here's hoping this happens again!

by reallybored Sun 02 Feb 2014, 5:41 pm

Set-piece cost us the game, their tries came form mistakes there and we couldn't capitalise on good positions. This is the biggest issue to fix for England match, personnel changes are necessary if we're to compete with England.

MacArthur for Ford, most obvious change but will lose bulk in front row at scrum time.

Welsh for Low, may be least experienced TH but he's the most solid scrummager.

I'd bring J Gray onto the bench ahead of Richie, he's got more bulk and will have greater impact.

Back-row performed well in 1st half, thought Beattie had a good impact. Would like a genuine open-side but would stick with Brown unless Rennie or Barclay are available.

Half-backs did well enough, hopefully introduction of Scott at 12 will give us more threat in midfield alongside Dunbar.

Hogg did well, Lamont and Evans were poor but lack of options may force Johnson's hand. Fingers crossed Maitland's ankle isn't as bad as it looked and Seymour is available for selection.

No need for a radical change of tactics, keep England deep and make sure we're clinical at set-piece. I'd like to see more pick and goes round the fringes to keep the opposition on their toes, need Dunbar & Scott hitting the gain line.

1 - Grant
2 - MacArthur
3 - Welsh
4 - Swinson
5 - Hamilton
6 - Wilson
7 - Brown
8 - Denton
9 - Laidlaw
10 - Weir
11 - Lamont
12 - Scott
13 - Dunbar
14 - Seymour
15 - Hogg

16 - Ford
17 - Dickinson
18 - Low
19 - Gray
20 - Beattie
21 - Cusiter
22 - Tonks
23 - Taylor

by Guest Sun 02 Feb 2014, 5:46 pm

FYI the above team is the likely team to start but with gray in for Hamilton and (unfortunately) Ford still there instead of macarthur

by Guest Sun 02 Feb 2014, 5:47 pm

Oh and low still there instead of Welsh. Just for the op not that i like it

by Guest Sun 02 Feb 2014, 5:52 pm

Laidlaw needs to start trusting his 10 to kick as I'm fed up of seeing him do it from the more compromised scrum half position and watch our chasers not chase or knock it on.

Line out way better with mac Arthur and gray but I doubt Ford will be dropped.

Lamont solid but ineffective in attack. Hogg can't do it all. Weir good enough to give him another go but needs to compose himself a bit ... a few head high passes etc.

Too many times we didn't have enough at the breakdown and that's appalling but it's been like that since Johnson took over.

England at home we always front up so anything could happen. Loser of this match staring down the barrel esp if it's Scotland!

by Manky-Flanker Sun 02 Feb 2014, 5:59 pm

Scotland had no platform from which to attack. The line-out particularly was on the wrong side of hilarious. Unless Scotland can sort this out quick, I think all teams in the tournament will be optimistic playing against them. Sadly.

by Guest Sun 02 Feb 2014, 6:26 pm

Oh also i doubt tonks will be on the bench we might see Evans start with 21 cusiter 22 Taylor 23 Seymour

by EnglishReign Sun 02 Feb 2014, 6:30 pm

Jonny May will have assessment on nose fracture tomorrow. I'm praying he's given the green light.

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 02 Feb 2014, 6:38 pm

From a Scottish perspective I have very low expectations indeed for this game after the shambles that was our performance. Maybe if we can go a whole match without ballsing up a restart I'll consider it progress

by yappysnap Sun 02 Feb 2014, 7:11 pm

To be fair to Scotland at least against England you're meeting a team with similar poor backs.

by ChequeredJersey Sun 02 Feb 2014, 8:28 pm

Our backs will be fine. We saw what they could do for about 2 plays yesterday

by Taffineastbourne Sun 02 Feb 2014, 9:45 pm

This will be a shocker.No decent 3/4s on either team.Lord help us.I might get my nail scissors and go and cut my grass instead of watching!

by ChequeredJersey Sun 02 Feb 2014, 9:48 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:This will be a shocker.No decent 3/4s on either team.Lord help us.I might get my nail scissors and go and cut my grass instead of watching!

Now you've said that it'll be a try fest

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Sun 02 Feb 2014, 10:44 pm

England will walk this.
I know both teams struggling with the backs at the moment but England are not mugs and they don't lose to Scotland.
England by 12 or more.

by reallybored Sun 02 Feb 2014, 10:48 pm

Actually pretty happy about our midfield with Scott coming back in alongside Dunbar, both good defenders and can be a handful going forward. Could be a bruising encounter next weekend against 36 & Burrell.

Lamont can make yards when he puts his head down and Seymour has done well when given the chance. Fingers crossed the boot was just a precaution for Maitland.

Hogg's the real gem in our back-line, just need to work him into more space but I thought Weir distributed the ball well today and Scott's presence will help.

Not too worried about England's ability to go 80 meters against us, especially on the Murrayfield pitch, more of the same in terms of territory from Laidlaw and Weir please. And if the pack could just get the finger out at set-piece, that'd be great. Not been impressed with this Jonathan Humphreys bloke.

by **RDW** Sun 02 Feb 2014, 10:51 pm

Agreed on Humphries - our pack has gone backwards under his spell in charge so far.

by beshocked Mon 03 Feb 2014, 9:17 am

Yappysnap I hope England pick that team.

Going by the performances of the two teams on the weekend England should win this one.

Selections by both sides should decide by how many.

Scotland's lineout was woeful.

Perhaps England could even things up and have T.Youngs throwing for the full 80. Wink

England must drop Twelvetrees who was poor vs France. Burrell and Barritt in the centres.

I would have Ford and Watson on the bench as the backline options.

England lost to France but they looked a lot better than Scotland.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 03 Feb 2014, 9:27 am

I think that Lancaster will keep the same team if he can. It's pointless swapping players every game and I didn't think Twelvetrees was as bad as some are suggesting. Not sure Barritt fits in with how we're trying to play. If he was surely Lancaster would have started him against the French midfield which on paper is more dangerous than Scotland's? Fofana and Basteraud were kept very quiet , including a great tackle by 36 on Fofana to deny him a very good chance of scoring. I can see Burns coming onto the bench.

by BamBam Mon 03 Feb 2014, 9:35 am

Scotland always up their game against us, and after that performance even more so.

Will be an interesting game for sure. I'm still inclined to give 36 more games, I don't think he was as bad as everyone else seems to, his direct carrying was good and he did make a few good passes. Not amazing, but neither was anyone else in the backs

My team would be unchanged if everyone fit, but with Ford and a back 3 player on the bench. If May is out, Ashton to start with the rest the same (not sure how left/right wing differences would be dealt with)

by BamBam Mon 03 Feb 2014, 9:37 am

Oh and I would like to see Webber get a go off the bench

by beshocked Mon 03 Feb 2014, 9:40 am

I sincerely hope you are wrong no 7 &1/2. We lost the match, a game England should have won.

Lancaster made a massive balls up - he needs to make up for it by making correct selection decisions this time round.

Twelvetrees was poor, he missed tackles and he threw poor passes. He is supposedly meant to be the creative 12 yet he has not delivered.

I don't get it right all the time but this time I did. Lancaster got his selection wrong .

by BamBam Mon 03 Feb 2014, 9:51 am

I don't think his starting selection was wrong. Everyone was arguing over Nowell, May and Burrell.

May only had 5 mins before injury - can't be helped, made a good break in those 5 mins.

Burrell - solid in defence, took his try well, left on an island in an unfamiliar position in the last 2 mins of a test match

Nowell - dropped the kickoff, but that should have been taken by Launchbury. Knocked on a couple of times but made some decent breaks, and was very good making his one on one tackles up against the likes of Picamoles.

The loss was due to 2 bounces of a ball, the decision not to take 3 points at the end of the first half, and terrible substitutions stripping us of all momentum and leaving us with 3 inside centres on the pitch at 12, 13 and 14. The early injury to May didn't help either with the subs issue

by No 7&1/2 Mon 03 Feb 2014, 9:56 am

beshocked wrote:I sincerely hope you are wrong no 7 &1/2. We lost the match, a game England should have won.

Lancaster made a massive balls up - he needs to make up for it by making correct selection decisions this time round.

Twelvetrees was poor, he missed tackles and he threw poor passes. He is supposedly meant to be the creative 12 yet he has not delivered.

I don't get it right all the time but this time I did. Lancaster got his selection wrong .

We should have won I'd agree with that. And from that I don't think Lancaster did get his selection wrong. But for 2 bounces which can happen I think we would have won. Twelvetrees made a great tackle on Fofana let's not forget and I didn't see France walknig through our midfield. If it's creativity in midfield we need surely barritt isn't the answer. Eastmond at 12 or Burrell across and Daly at 13 would be more logical?

Bear in mind also the big loss of May so early on.

by beshocked Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:02 am

Bambam disagree.

Burrell earnt his selection based on good form and he delivered.

Twelvetrees has not been in good form this season.

May's injury forced England to make an early replacement which was detrimental to the overall effort.

Nowell was a mixed bag but I wouldn't say he was good, France exploited the back three effectively and he was part of that.

Lancaster got his selection wrong - he shouldn't have picked Barritt and Goode on the bench. Should have started Barritt with Ford and Watson on the bench.

by beshocked Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:08 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:I sincerely hope you are wrong no 7 &1/2. We lost the match, a game England should have won.

Lancaster made a massive balls up - he needs to make up for it by making correct selection decisions this time round.

Twelvetrees was poor, he missed tackles and he threw poor passes. He is supposedly meant to be the creative 12 yet he has not delivered.

I don't get it right all the time but this time I did. Lancaster got his selection wrong .

We should have won I'd agree with that. And from that I don't think Lancaster did get his selection wrong. But for 2 bounces which can happen I think we would have won. Twelvetrees made a great tackle on Fofana let's not forget and I didn't see France walknig through our midfield. If it's creativity in midfield we need surely barritt isn't the answer. Eastmond at 12 or Burrell across and Daly at 13 would be more logical?

Bear in mind also the big loss of May so early on.

Didn't need to walk through our midfield because their back three did the work. Okay Twelvetrees made one good tackle, doesn't make up for his failings. He is selected to be the creative 12, he has not delivered.

If you put in Eastmond or Daly you have yet another new player - at least with Barritt in the centres you have a bit of continuity with his fellow club 10.

You think Lancaster should take yet another gamble and pick 12.Burrell, 13.Daly?

England cannot afford to lose again.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:08 am

I certainly don't think Scotland can produce another such insipid display, although I wouldn't be surprised.

It was dreadful yesterday.

Our hooker couldn't throw in or hook the ball.

Our backrow ended up with 3 no 8s playing.

Lamont tried hard but did nothing and one of our players with a bit of spark was carried off the field.

All in all a bit of a bummer really.

It's at Murrayfield so it'll be close enough. I'm thanking my lucky stars it's not at Twickers or this could be an embarrasment.

by little_badger Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:28 am

God I just don't know. 12Trees hasn't been great but he's had quite a few outside centre partners, should we change the team again after the new partnership has had ONE game together? I just don't think so, we've had consistently bad back 3s and last years back row selections, why change habit?!

I am not saying that 12 isn't an issue, because the centres have arguably been England biggest problem of the last 10 years.

Backs on the bench has to change, there was no speed, no impact it was an utterly boring selection.

And if he picks the spectacularly out of form Burns on the bench.......

by No 7&1/2 Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:31 am

beshocked wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:I sincerely hope you are wrong no 7 &1/2. We lost the match, a game England should have won.

Lancaster made a massive balls up - he needs to make up for it by making correct selection decisions this time round.

Twelvetrees was poor, he missed tackles and he threw poor passes. He is supposedly meant to be the creative 12 yet he has not delivered.

I don't get it right all the time but this time I did. Lancaster got his selection wrong .

We should have won I'd agree with that. And from that I don't think Lancaster did get his selection wrong. But for 2 bounces which can happen I think we would have won. Twelvetrees made a great tackle on Fofana let's not forget and I didn't see France walknig through our midfield. If it's creativity in midfield we need surely barritt isn't the answer. Eastmond at 12 or Burrell across and Daly at 13 would be more logical?

Bear in mind also the big loss of May so early on.

Didn't need to walk through our midfield because their back three did the work. Okay Twelvetrees made one good tackle, doesn't make up for his failings. He is selected to be the creative 12, he has not delivered.

If you put in Eastmond or Daly you have yet another new player - at least with Barritt in the centres you have a bit of continuity with his fellow club 10.

You think Lancaster should take yet another gamble and pick 12.Burrell, 13.Daly?

England cannot afford to lose again.

I think he should stick with the same team. I don't think the midfield was weak defensively so what's the point in bringing in Barritt? I don't think the team full stop were bad defensively, any team can get undone by a bad bounce, we had 2 in a game. No need to panic.

by little_badger Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:33 am

Anyone else really disappointed Webber is going back to his club this week? I would have liked to have seen him on the bench, we simply can not have our lineout fall apart every time Youngs comes on.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:34 am

Agreed. Webber deserves his chance.

by BamBam Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:42 am

beshocked wrote:Bambam disagree.

Burrell earnt his selection based on good form and he delivered.

Twelvetrees has not been in good form this season.

May's injury forced England to make an early replacement which was detrimental to the overall effort.

Nowell was a mixed bag but I wouldn't say he was good, France exploited the back three effectively and he was part of that.

Lancaster got his selection wrong - he shouldn't have picked Barritt and Goode on the bench. Should have started Barritt with Ford and Watson on the bench.

We will have to agree to disagree on Twelvetrees, I don't think he was bad enough to warrant dropping. I would give him a 6/10, on par with the majority of the backs.

May's injury is not a reason to criticise Lancaster, these things happen in international rugby, but could just as easily have happened to Ashton/Sharples or any other winger who was touted as a starter ahead of him.

I don't think France exploited the starting back 3, they got 2 lucky bounces of a ball then the try at the end was due to 3 centres defending from 12-14.

I see no reason for Barritt to be in the squad if not starting, and I don't think he should start ahead of the centres who played on Saturday

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:43 am

beshocked wrote:Bambam disagree.

Burrell earnt his selection based on good form and he delivered.

Twelvetrees has not been in good form this season.

May's injury forced England to make an early replacement which was detrimental to the overall effort.

Nowell was a mixed bag but I wouldn't say he was good, France exploited the back three effectively and he was part of that.

Lancaster got his selection wrong - he shouldn't have picked Barritt and Goode on the bench. Should have started Barritt with Ford and Watson on the bench.

I'd agree with most of that, although I think picking Twelvetrees of Barritt is much of a muchness at the moment. Neither will set the world alight, but neither will massively mess up.

I don't think Goode is international quality. Although, if he is selected, even as a sub, surely he has to be surrounded by speedsters. At the moment, we don't have enough lightening quick players who are fit, so I don't think he can be in there.

To think, England finished with a backline of: Dickson, Farrell, Brown, Barritt, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Goode. Where's the pace?

by yappysnap Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:44 am

That is terrible, Webber should definitely be in there over Youngs. Look at the Lawes/Hartley combo, we can recreate that off the bench with Attwood and Webber.

Some times Lancaster really troubles me with his selections

by beshocked Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:51 am

Bambam who do you think Twelvetrees was on par with in the backline?

Perhaps May suffers from JSD-itus - something he has picked up from the man himself. It's not the first time May has been injured.

Of course they exploited the back three - did you not watch the match? France noticed a weakness and used it to their advantage.

jbeadlesbrighthand fair enough. I don't think twelvetrees is international quality.

Really? You think Twelvetrees is the same as Barritt? First time I have heard that.

I agree - definitely a lack of pace at the end.

Yappysnap seems like we are on the same wavelength. By the way I must apologise to Care. He played well. thumbsup

by yappysnap Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:58 am

I'd be happier with Barritt in there now. He's experienced and unlike a new cap player he should be able to slot in easily. Twelvetrees passing was so poor that even if Barritt just has a steady game it'll be an improvement.

This has to be looked at as a chance for a couple of the older heads to stake their claim to shirts theyve lost. If Lancaster is building the right mentality in camp then Ashton and Barritt should both be able to cone back into the matchday team and really kick on. Just like they'd have to do if covering injuries etc in the RWC.

by BamBam Mon 03 Feb 2014, 11:03 am

Twelvetrees, Nowell, Burrell and Goode all would have got a 6/10 for me, possibly a 7 for Burrell given his try. Care, Farrell and Brown all 7/10

JSD itus has not been officially diagnosed yet, and a broken nose is hardly the same as the constant leg injuries that JSD used to get.

I still don't think we were exploited in the back 3. Other than the kicks that resulted in tries, and the balls up at the end with Burrell on the wing, when were we threatened out wide?

by doctor_grey Mon 03 Feb 2014, 11:06 am

little_badger wrote:Anyone else really disappointed Webber is going back to his club this week? I would have liked to have seen him on the bench, we simply can not have our lineout fall apart every time Youngs comes on.

I really haven't seen Webber much this season. Maybe two matches if I recall. Didn't knock my socks off, but nothing bad either. How are the other parts of his game going? What, in particular, does he bring? I agree we cannot lose critical lineouts like we are. If England won that first lineout after Youngs came on, who knows how the match would have turned?

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