6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

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IRELAND v ENGLAND
18 March 2017
KO: 17:00 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Mathieu Raynal (France) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Live on [BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)]

A. Head to Head

131 Played 131
47 Won 76
8 Drawn 8
76 Lost 47
1,079 Points 1,526

B. Recent Form

27 February 2016
Twickenham, London
21 – 10 to England

5 September 2015
Twickenham, London
21 – 13 to England

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

C. Teams

IRELAND

Payne; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Zebo; Sexton, Marmion; McGrath, Best (captain), Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip,

Replacements: Scannell, Healy, Ryan, Toner, O'Mahony, McGrath, Jackson, Conway.

ENGLAND

Brown; Watson, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Youngs; Marler, Hartley (captain), Cole; Launchbury, Lawes; Itoje, Haskell, B Vunipola.

Replacements: George, M Vunipola, Sinckler, Wood, Hughes, Care, Te'o, Nowell.

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sure might leave England relying a bit on Hartley but he's infallible in the eyes of some.

FFS BS. Dog with a bone.

He is indeed infallible in the eyes of some but I do give credit where it's due, he put in an improved performance vs Scotland.

If he puts in a similar performance against Ireland then perhaps England can do without George on the bench. It's big if though and Taylor lacks experience.

I'd like England to win and if that means Hartley and Taylor playing well then great.

No one's infallible beshocked not even George.

Scottrf wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:The icons showing we are joshing obviously do not work.

More of a comment on Thacker!

I was not aiming that at you, though tbh I was not sure of the meaning behind your comment. Will not admit what I thought you meant as that would be far too much of an insight into my perversions

No 7&1/2 wrote:No one's infallible beshocked not even George.

Hartley can do no wrong in your eyes. Same with other players like Ford.

George indeed is not infallible. He did miss that tackle vs Italy. He's not been putting in good but not outstanding performances. Generally reliable but not wrecking ball style.

Effective but understated.

I am not as biased as many people think. None of my favourite players are infallible. Itoje must improve his carrying and improve his discipline. Too many penalties still given away.

Lawes,Launchbury and Itoje have been 3 of our most effective players IMO - all doing different things.

If Daly is fit enough, who will EJ select on the wings?

beshocked wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sure might leave England relying a bit on Hartley but he's infallible in the eyes of some.

FFS BS. Dog with a bone.

He is indeed infallible in the eyes of some but I do give credit where it's due, he put in an improved performance vs Scotland.

If he puts in a similar performance against Ireland then perhaps England can do without George on the bench. It's big if though and Taylor lacks experience.

I'd like England to win and if that means Hartley and Taylor playing well then great.

Surely no one would be relying on a hooker who misses over 7% of his throws - and Taylor is worse?

The hooker deabte is not one worth having on this thread. If everyone's fit, Hartley starts against Ireland.

I do think George will start the first Autumn game for England though, fitness obviously permitting.

Wings is more interesting if Daly pulls through. Discounting the option of dropping Brown to play Daly, Watson and Nowell, I'd say Nowell probably misses out, although he'd feel aggrieved by it. May is only the cover option for me, and is 4th in the pecking order.

I agree. I cannot see EJ dropping Brown for this game and could see Nowell dropping to the bench, especially as he looked so lively off it against Italy, but subdued against Scotland.

You've misunderstood again then beshocked.

Watson is better in the air for me than Nowell as well which could be important. Daly is going to get those high balls all day if he plays.

Anyone notice that Wales continually picked out Zebo with their kicks, something Ford was criticised for 2 years ago. Will be interesting to see if that tactic continues.

Aside from England's rather inconsistent performances at the beginning of the competition (which they still won) I can see only two areas of the game that we can beat them in. In every other facet I believe England are vastly superior.

We have a strong scrum, but it hasn't been as effective as it was in November. That is to be expected, Furlong was the new kid on the block so it was always going to be more difficult for him as he gained exposure. I think we can get the better in this one. Aside from that we might have superiority over the breakdown but that largely depends on our back row selection. Stander, SOB and Heaslip is not a very balanced back row. Our usual dominance of the breakdown has been hampered as a result.

As for England...in the line-out their smallest back row is the same height as our largest (unless Vunipola comes in, which of course is a bad thing for England...) so we will be slaughtered here. They have bigger and more effective ball carriers so they can outdo Schmidt at his own game. They have two fantastic playmakers in the backline so they can actually release the fliers in the outside backs. Which immediately leads into their next area of strength...pace. Pace across the backline. I yearn for the days where we will get to see wingers finishing once again...

So if Ireland want to win this, we will have to retain as much possession as possible and win the territorial game (difficult with a malfunctioning line-out). This will require clever tactical kicking and aggressive work at the breakdown.

There is always massive doom and gloom and over exaggerations after an Ireland loss. Yes England are a better side at the moment, particularly in the backs. However, while we may not win I feel like we will raise our game at home and play better. We nearly always do at home.

No, Guns, that isn't what it is. People have been criticising Schmidt's tactics for a long time before our loss to Wales. In fact, I can remember worries from before the RWC 2015. I bought the rubbish from the apologists that Schmidt was saving his best tricks for the big games and I'm still waiting.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:No, Guns, that isn't what it is. People have been criticising Schmidt's tactics for a long time before our loss to Wales. In fact, I can remember worries from before the RWC 2015. I bought the rubbish from the apologists that Schmidt was saving his best tricks for the big games and I'm still waiting.

By "people" you mean Munster/Ulter supporters?

Nope, there are plenty of Leinster supporters on here who have criticised Schmidt as well, actually. As it turns out, people can actually think independently and not be blinded by provincial bias. And why are the poor Connacht fans always left out?

I dont know whay dont we ask them....

No 7&1/2 wrote:You've misunderstood again then beshocked.

Not misunderstood at all no 7 & 1/2. You've argued with miaow about something similar. Some players in your eyes are infallible. A mistake is not a mistake in your eyes.


Expect Ireland to send the ball into the air again and again - would rather have Nowell catching the ball than an unfit Daly.

Watson and Nowell would be my choices on the wings with ball hogger Brown at full back. 18 runs and 3 passes.... A few English forwards passed on the ball more than him and have arguably greater handling. Worrying when a back is being outdone by forwards.

Still Brown is best suited to the Irish aerial bombardment.

Nope. You've misunderstood. But if you want to post anywhere where I've said he's infallible you can do and I'll apologise and hold my hands up to that mistake.

Infallible means suggesting, for any reason whatsoever, he takes some of Jamie George's game time.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nope. You've misunderstood. But if you want to post anywhere where I've said he's infallible you can do and I'll apologise and hold my hands up to that mistake.

Not misunderstood at all. Hold your hands up for a mistake? Ha! You've never done that.

You've said Hartley hasn't put in a poor performance in this year's 6 nations. Seems like being infallible to me. When clearly there have been matches he's not been good enough in.

He can do no wrong in your eyes. Not the only player of course.

scottrf you don't haul your captain off only 5 minutes into the 2nd half if you think they are playing well.....


It's simple really - acknowledge when someone has had a poor game, acknowledge when they have a good game, don't pretend a player had a good game when they were poor.

That isn't the same thing. Which is why i said youve misunderstood.

Surely if he's being hauled off 5 mins into the 2nd half that means he's not seen as infallible ...

Basically to repeat myself this squad is very good. There are few standouts among the players. There are 1 or 2 standouts. No one is getting harshly treated. There are no Mauritz Botha s keeping out Martin Johnson s. There are a lot of players who are pretty.much coin tosses or horses for courses in tactics.

No 7&1/2 wrote:That isn't the same thing. Which is why i said youve misunderstood.

When he's poor, he's good in your eyes, when he's good, he's obviously good - he can do no wrong from your perspective.

When he's lethargic, he's dynamic in your eyes, when he misses 8 tackles in the competition, in your eyes he's missed none and is one of the best defenders in the team.

It's just delusion.

When Joseph makes a defensive error it's not a defensive error etc. You can still be a good player and have a good game - Joseph's 3 tries outweighed his error.

I think that's you trying to create a discussion or argument I'm not making again beshocked. In relation to the Joseph error vs Wales which is what I'm assuming you're talking about. Yes I don't believe that was a defensive error for Joseph more to Farrell but as I said about that it was just a really nice move that Wales should be applauded for rather than a major defensive mistake. I think some others on here pointed to Nowell as the main guy at fault not tracking his man fast enough. I still think Joseph is excellent defensively and indeed miaow must be playing wum a bit on his frailties as he considers Joseph world class and surely mo one can be that if they suck on defence.

So again argue against what I say I'd you don't agree and not what you think or wish I'd said.

No 7 & 1/2 you are deluded. It's important to give credit to a player when due but to criticise also when due.

You on the other hand don't acknowledge mistakes by players or when they haven't played well.

One mistake by Joseph doesn't outweigh all the good he did but he made a mistake.

I know it's hard but please try to acknowledge when players haven't had good games.

That's my biggest problem with you as a poster. Too often you've said a player has done well when clearly they haven't.

Sometimes it can be debatable but in some cases it's simply not.

Can we take this bickering to somewhere else please.

I'll go back on topic now. Londontiger.

What state are Murray and Sexton in? Will they be fully fit?

I just try to have a bit of balance beshocked. I honestly don't think Joseph was at fault for Williams try. You do ok. We disagree. Even at a stretch if it were Joseph s fault I still think it was a glorious move. Ironically the Joseph thing has come about by me saying he was underwhelming in attack throughout most of last year but that his defence was brilliant and for me he was currently the best outside centre defensively ie an acknowledgement that he wasn't as brilliant in attack as he had shown previously. Like I said disagree with me plenty do as I do others. This isn't a forum for nothing we don't have to let people talk rubbish if we think it is, challenge me but at least focus on what I've said.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ironically the Joseph thing has come about by me saying he was underwhelming in attack throughout most of last year

? He scored, what, 8 tries for England?

Yup. But I don't think we saw him at his best. And haven't up until Scotland. A few of those tries are also down to his defence. Up on players quickly, his knack for an intercept. I love that we have I wouldn't swap him for another centre at present.

Rpry_Gallagher wrote:Aside from England's rather inconsistent performances at the beginning of the competition (which they still won) I can see only two areas of the game that we can beat them in. In every other facet I believe England are vastly superior.

We have a strong scrum, but it hasn't been as effective as it was in November. That is to be expected, Furlong was the new kid on the block so it was always going to be more difficult for him as he gained exposure. I think we can get the better in this one. Aside from that we might have superiority over the breakdown but that largely depends on our back row selection. Stander, SOB and Heaslip is not a very balanced back row. Our usual dominance of the breakdown has been hampered as a result.

As for England...in the line-out their smallest back row is the same height as our largest (unless Vunipola comes in, which of course is a bad thing for England...) so we will be slaughtered here. They have bigger and more effective ball carriers so they can outdo Schmidt at his own game. They have two fantastic playmakers in the backline so they can actually release the fliers in the outside backs. Which immediately leads into their next area of strength...pace. Pace across the backline. I yearn for the days where we will get to see wingers finishing once again...

So if Ireland want to win this, we will have to retain as much possession as possible and win the territorial game (difficult with a malfunctioning line-out). This will require clever tactical kicking and aggressive work at the breakdown.

England pretty much hold all the aces except home advantage.

I think we might see Payne come in for this one. Joe will be having nightmares about what Joseph did to Scotland.
It seems inevitable that English backline will score.

Odd one for Farrell Snr to be involved with. His son with a chance of immortality as part of a double grand slam and world record breaking team whilst Andy is the one trying to stop it happening.

rapidsnowman wrote:Odd one for Farrell Snr to be involved with. His son with a chance of immortality as part of a double grand slam and world record breaking team whilst Andy is the one trying to stop it happening.

Doubt that worries him at all. Professional rugby coach, used to playing against countries they are from, clubs they support etc.

Scottrf wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:Odd one for Farrell Snr to be involved with. His son with a chance of immortality as part of a double grand slam and world record breaking team whilst Andy is the one trying to stop it happening.

Doubt that worries him at all. Professional rugby coach, used to playing against countries they are from, clubs they support etc.

Apparently Coleen (wife/mother) is the main one worried. She wants a 3-0 win for England apparently - as then son gets the record, but Hubbie's defence held firm.

The lineout is certainly an area we can attack. It's a real shame Kruis isn't available as him and Itoje work great in tandem getting at an opposition throw.

Best has the worst darts in the NH from an International point of view, I'd like to see us throwing jumpers up at the front from the start.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:No, Guns, that isn't what it is. People have been criticising Schmidt's tactics for a long time before our loss to Wales. In fact, I can remember worries from before the RWC 2015. I bought the rubbish from the apologists that Schmidt was saving his best tricks for the big games and I'm still waiting.

Irish fans tend to be very dramatic/fickle in their appraisal one week to the next, if we win Heaslip and Kearney are usually lauded as great stalwarts of the team and when we lose they tend to be the scapegoats, past it and more evidence of Schmidt bias etc. Both these guys are fairly consistent week on week.

Yes Ireland dont have the most incisive backs and we lose big games every now and then but I cant ever remember an Ireland team that despite losing from time to time as competitive as this side and through excellent organisation and reasonably well thought out tactics is at the very least in the position to win nearly every game they play.

For the whole of Schmidt's tenure there have only been a few games that Ireland have not been in the game at all. The first test of his tenure v Australia, the WC semi against Argentina (even though they did manage to claw them back at one point) and maybe last years test v England.

I cannot remember any other coach for Ireland that has developed such a competitive side. Lets not forget that this years 6 nations is probably the strongest ever tournament in 6 nations history and we are still in 2nd place.

Of all the games we have lost only a handfull were by more than a score:

Ireland 13 21 -8 v England Twickenham 05-Sep-15
Ireland 10 21 -11 v England Twickenham 27-Feb-16
Ireland 9 21 -12 v New Zealand Lansdowne Road 19-Nov-16
Ireland 9 22 -13 v Wales Millennium Stadium 10-Mar-17
Ireland 15 32 -17 v Australia Lansdowne Road 16-Nov-13
Ireland 20 43 -23 v Argentina Millennium Stadium 18-Oct-15

The biggest loss was v Argentina. Of the above games we were very competitive in at least half of them.

beshocked wrote:I'll go back on topic now. Londontiger.

What state are Murray and Sexton in? Will they be fully fit?

Apparently both were fit enough to train yesterday, which bodes well for them this weekend. The half-backs are instrumental to Ireland and if they're not fit then Ireland will struggle.

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:Odd one for Farrell Snr to be involved with. His son with a chance of immortality as part of a double grand slam and world record breaking team whilst Andy is the one trying to stop it happening.

Doubt that worries him at all. Professional rugby coach, used to playing against countries they are from, clubs they support etc.

Apparently Coleen (wife/mother) is the main one worried. She wants a 3-0 win for England apparently - as then son gets the record, but Hubbie's defence held firm.

With names like Coleen O'Loughlin and Andy Farrell Im sure that they already had somewhat of a soft spot for Ireland before Farrell Snrs inclusion in the Ireland coaching staff.

Thanks robbo.

As for English halfbacks -

Nice to see B.Youngs having a better game. I thought his box kicks in general were good. At times he can look like a headless chicken but not vs Scotland.

Ford seemed comfortable working with Farrell and having Farrell with his 5/5 100% record vs Ireland should help.

Now of course records can go up in smoke, I am sure Ireland have that in mind.

I'm not sure if I said it before but the only hope I feel Ireland have now is that Joe Schmidt has been preparing for this game all along.  He tends to pinpoint one game/one team for doing all his study on (whatever he may say in public to the contrary) and I at least feel we often just trust mostly to chance and hope for most of the others.  

We didn't seem ready for what either Scotland or Wales would bring.  Their intensity seemed to have surprised/unsettled us - which is weird considering England will notch all that up to another level again.
Indeed, I don't think Joe did much work on what the All Blacks might do in that second game last Autumn IF they (ABs) indeed lost the first one.  All his efforts as a coach was in trying to get that first win/that one game.  I don't think he did too much preplanning on what the ABs would look like if they actually lost.

I think England are too powerful all over the place for us to do anything to upset them now, especially after the uncrisp 6N we've had and Sexton being now as brittle as the evidence keeps suggesting.  But the only hope is that Schmidt is well prepared for this one.  Whatever the outcome, Ireland need to rethink players (particularly in the backs) and methodology after this championship.  But will we?

I'm not sure England do have the best carriers. If BV starts then yes, he's often excellent. But the best carrier for me is Stander, with SOB and Furlong behind him. At least on form they seem better than England's, say, Haskell, Hughes and I guess this tournament Lawes?

So I'm not convinced there's a big power difference. Our front row is bang average at carrying, as is Launchbury and it's only this tournament that Lawes has stepped up. I think this area will be far closer than people think.

Sexton's brittle but I bet he runs flat at Ford over and over again.

No one runs over Ford without stumbling!

TightHEAD wrote:No one runs over Ford without stumbling!

Ture, Campagnaro had to go through rather than over him.

Hood83 wrote:I'm not sure England do have the best carriers. If BV starts then yes, he's often excellent. But the best carrier for me is Stander, with SOB and Furlong behind him. At least on form they seem better than England's, say, Haskell, Hughes and I guess this tournament Lawes?

So I'm not convinced there's a big power difference. Our front row is bang average at carrying, as is Launchbury and it's only this tournament that Lawes has stepped up. I think this area will be far closer than people think.

Sexton's brittle but I bet he runs flat at Ford over and over again.

It has less to do with individual carrying ability than the tactics used. Stander is a fantastic ball carrier but he was stopped in his tracks a number of times against Wales as he took the ball static. We always seem to do that. It doesn't matter how well you can carry the ball - if you're taking the ball from a standing start you're not going to be that effective.

Pace is the name of the game...

Larissa Muldoon comes into the Ireland side at scrum-half.

Anyone know what Eddie Jones' excuse will be if England lose? Its fun to guess.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Anyone know what Eddie Jones' excuse will be if England lose? Its fun to guess.

You're a little bit obsessed with him. Quite sad.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Anyone know what Eddie Jones' excuse will be if England lose? Its fun to guess.

You're a little bit obsessed with him. Quite sad.

Hardly, this is the Ireland England thread. Post somewhere else if it doesnt interest you.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Anyone know what Eddie Jones' excuse will be if England lose? Its fun to guess.

You're a little bit obsessed with him. Quite sad.

Hardly, this is the Ireland England thread. Post somewhere else if it doesnt interest you.

The game does. What excuses a manager might make is a little bit childish and hardly match related.