De Grand Finale match - begorrah! England v Ireland 17 March - Hic!

The stage is set for a humdinger of a match next week today with the final match of the Championship hosting a revitalised England fresh from victory in France against their bogey team, Ireland.



Despite a recent run of victories - home and away - against England, Ireland never seem to have a problem in getting up for this match. The fact that it's in Twickenham on St Patrick's Day will give it that little extra edge.

Lancaster and his troops will want to sign off their first season in charge with a flourish. Kidney's Ireland, having been unlucky in the Welsh match, and kicking themselves after their draw in Paris, will want to put another good score and victory on the board.



Ireland will be without O'Connell again who did a lot of the pre-match talking in the build-up to last year's victory for the men in green. England seem full of confidence and it looks like Lancaster has found the right mix and belief that's going to make this grand finale a belter.

Are English fans feeling confident? Irish ones a bit more doubtful of continuing their English streak?


England: 15 Ben Foden, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 Manusamoa Tuilagi, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 David Strettle, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Lee Dickson, 8 Ben Morgan, 7 Chris Robshaw (capt), 6 Tom Croft, 5 Geoff Parling, 4 Mouritz Botha, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley, 1 Alex Corbisiero.
Replacements: 16 Rob Webber, 17 Matt Stevens, 18 Tom Palmer, 19 Phil Dowson, 20 Ben Youngs, 21 Charlie Hodgson, 22 Mike Brown.

Ireland: 15 R Kearney (Leinster), 14 T Bowe (Ospreys), 13 K Earls (Munster), 12 G D'Arcy (Leinster), 11 A Trimble (Ulster), 10 J Sexton (Leinster), 9 E Reddan (Leinster); 1 C Healy (Leinster), 2 R Best (Ulster, capt), 3 M Ross (Leinster), 4 D O'Callaghan (Munster), 5 D Ryan (Munster), 6 S Ferris (Ulster), 7 S O'Brien (Leinster), 8 J Heaslip (Leinster)
Replacements: 16 S Cronin (Leinster), 17 T Court (Ulster), 18 M McCarthy (Connacht), 19 P O'Mahony (Munster), 20 T O'Leary (Munster), 21 R O'Gara (Munster), 22 F McFadden (Leinster)


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Ireland have to be massive favourites really, they just have a hex over England.

You never know though.

I wonder if Dowson out means Wood in after his great performance today?

It will be interesting to see which team has improved the most this championship.

Cant remember the last time England beat Ireland in the 6 Nations , Possibly the time when Cipriani looked like a man possessed in 08?

Anyway should be a great way to finish an interesting tournament.

England by 5

trebellbobaggins wrote:Ireland have to be massive favourites really, they just have a hex over England.

You never know though.

I wonder if Dowson out means Wood in after his great performance today?

Trebbs mate, you'crack me up

England now a textbook example of a side which has improved as the tournament has progressed. Nevertheless I can't call this one. As has been said Ireland have invariably raised their game against the English home and away in recent years.

So long as Wales seal it in Cardiff this should be a great finale

paulie will be a big loss here for ireland as all the players say he is the best motivator for this fixture. I think its a hard one to call but we do tend to have england's number for while now. Both teams are in better form now as tournament has gone on. only wish we had wales last game

My question is, Deccie got rid of D'Arcy fairly early yesterday so will he start him next weekend.

Both teams have noticeably improved as the tournament progresses.

England should target the Irish midfield. Use Tuilagi to do what Roberts does when playing Ireland.

I wonder will the fatigue of playing four games in four weeks catch up with Ireland. Ireland will have to start well, because I think England will finish stronger.

The Irish scrum looks good, the lineout looks good. We always seem to have an advantage at the breakdown over England. Sexton looks to be growing more confidently into test rugby with each game.

If England can exploit our midfield and keep it close on the scoreboard they'll win it in the last 15 minutes I'd say, with the home crowd behind them.

If Ireland continue their improvements and repeat the start they made against England in Dublin last year then they can win.

The English game is always the most brutally physical one for us. So I'm just not sure how much fatigue the Irish will be feeling. Maybe this problem could be negated by clever use of the bench.

Good points Feckless.

Fatigue is going to be the biggest enemy for Ireland, and England will use that to their best advantage, particularly with the kind of substitutions in the second half and when they're deployed.

Ireland have an extra day to recover and to be fair these players were the ones who looked fitter at end of scotland match after just 6 day turnaround

Yeah Ireland didn't show any signs of fatigue against Scotland. But I thought the French did look tired today. However I believe they were called back to play for their clubs during the weekend they did have off.

After 4th game in 4 weeks it might start to show. Particularly when England in Twickenham will put more pressure on us than Scotland in Dublin.

paddy powers have no prices on the game yet. wales are 200/1 on to win tournament. if only i had few million quid

Pretty sure that Irelands players wont be too bad for the match. I really cant wait for it

There are so many cliche's flying around here it's unreal...

England and Ireland have both quite obviously improved?

Arguably Irelands best quality game was first up V Wales, Italy seemed to roll over and the scots were outclassed. France were intimitant V England and Ireland.

Ireland are Englands bogey team?

Very disrespectfull to the Irish team who have just been better than England for a few years now, in every facet of play and have been consistent in their performances.

Fatigue of four games in four weeks?

Because these players never play 4 games in 4 weeks, it's too tough, is the reason Ireland lost to Wales in the world cup the fact they played 5 games in 2 weeks or so?

Tuilagi and Foden will look to carve holes?

When have they carved holes in the last 4 games? Tuilagi ruins good wide ball, and Foden made a supporting run today. Infact given Frances defence today I'm surprised they didn't look to run more!

England will finish stronger?

Like they did today? Or against Wales, or Scotland?

I'm taking nothing away from England fans today, good performance in Paris, added with a great performance against Wales, an ok perfomance V Scotland and well, a win V Italy. England have improved, but don't get too carried away, Ireland are going to be a tough competitor, they won't be shocked by the defencive effort like Wales were or inconsistent like France. This will be Englands toughest game yet.

That there's fightin' talk, mister.

I thought Ireland's tactics were dumb against Wales. And they also lacked intensity throughout the game. Letting an 8 point lead slip in the last 10 minutes showed very poor focus. It was Ireland's worst performance. And they've gotten better with each game, apart from a really poor 2nd half against France.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I thought Ireland's tactics were dumb against Wales. And they also lacked intensity throughout the game. Letting an 8 point lead slip in the last 10 minutes showed very poor focus. It was Ireland's worst performance. And they've gotten better with each game, apart from a really poor 2nd half against France.

Agreed. They should have put Wales away, and their sloppiness at the end to allow Wales back into their 22, whatever about the fortuitous penalty against Ferris, was poor.

The first half against France was a lot better. And their tactics against the Scots, considering the performance of Wales, England and France against them, were much better.

There is a benefit to the fact that they've had four consecutive matches in allowing them to gel better.

lol trebbs is starting early- keep it up

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Ireland are Englands bogey team?

Very disrespectfull to the Irish team who have just been better than England for a few years now, in every facet of play and have been consistent in their performances.

Would you say that England have just been better than France for a few years then?

Irelands performance against wales was possibly the worst i have seen in an age (Italy last year excepted).

England have to be favourites though. Their last two games have seen a phenomenal intensity compared with the first two.
I still three they were gifted 3 trys today although all of them were expertly taken. France gifted Ireland their trys as well.

Front row- i really dont know here. We got the better of this last year but Corbisiero has come on very well since then. Even.
Second Row- again its difficult to say. Parling is a good lineout operator and Donncha Ryan is still filling the great mans boots. Even.
Backrow- This is where Ireland have the edge. Robshaw has played excellently in the tournament but Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip or mahoney get the edge here. Ireland
Half backs- I would give an edge to England here. sexton is well capable but i think Farrell has been excellent. Dickson edges Reddan at scrum half. England
Centre- Got to give it to England here as D'arcy really isnt offering anything anymore.
Back three- Ashton is badly out of sorts and although Foden is very good the form of Kearney and bowes try scoring means adv ireland. Ireland.

Too bloody close to call imo but home advantage to see england through.

England will dominate the set piece, and in Farrell they have a clone of Wilko who will kick penalties. If England play a tight game they will win.

OTOH if Kidney gets Ireland to play an open game, England's defence isn't great and Ireland will score tries.

I think Lancaster will get his team to play a wide game and by so doing could easily lose this.

bluesman, although the smallest margin, I actually think the Ireland game was Wales' best performance of the tournament thus far. We simply haven't been able to replicate it since, though hopefully that'll change in Cardiff on Saturday.

It's easy to turn around and say that their wins were down to the opposition being poor but you can only go so far with that claim. It takes a good side to exploit a poor side believe it or not. Italy weren't playing badly and were still in touch at HT, only to be blown away afterwards. You saw how we utterly failed to look as convincing against the Azzurri yesterday. A draw in France is considerable when you look at Ireland's luck there in the past 40 years. And they've beaten Scotland more convincingly than anyone else could. So I maintain, I think they have improved as this 6N has gone on.

How can you not say Ireland have been England's bogey team? They've lost to them once in almost a decade...

England & Ireland are the only teams that have improved as the tournament has progressed so next weeks game should be a humdinger.

In England's case this is more understandable as they had a lot of new players playing together for the first time. Improvement was never a given but it has happened and come from a solid defensive base and we are now adding other dimensions within the units that are becoming more familiar with each other.

Think what he means is that Ireland are not England's Bogey team merely that Ireland are simply better

But overall standings would suggest otherwise, hence bogey team.

They do seem to be head to head, as said above eng must just be better than france then.

well his reasoning doesnt make sense does it!

england beat up france, france beat up ireland, ireland beat up england.

There have been times eng really should have won but Ireland seem to have the Hexx, as eng do on France.

This Ireland team is just better on paper though as eng are very new, though they have great potential I think. Good to see the talented youth coming through at last.

Both Enland and Ireland have improved during this 6N and i feel that next weeks match has the makings of a cracker.

Will be good to have the Irish in town on Paddy's day, I will be partying hard with them on gold cup night anyway!

EnglishReign wrote:But overall standings would suggest otherwise, hence bogey team.

Not True Ireland have out performed England in the 6Nations since England won the world cup. Also the Irish Provinces regularly batter the English Clubs.

EnglishReign wrote:Will be good to have the Irish in town on Paddy's day, I will be partying hard with them on gold cup night anyway!

Always a good day and a great match. I really hope that it will be a cracker

It is very true that having all your resources n just a few sides works very well for Ireland. I cannot for the life of me see how England's thinly spread clubs can ever compete? I do wonder if it impacts depth though for Ireland? Doesn't seem to at mo though.

tecphobe wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:But overall standings would suggest otherwise, hence bogey team.

Not True Ireland have out performed England in the 6Nations since England won the world cup. Also the Irish Provinces regularly batter the English Clubs.

You're right, I forgot how bad England were from 04-07. It's about even on Heino cups though

Haven't really seen many games where the Irish Provinces have battered English Clubs either...

trebellbobaggins wrote:Ireland have to be massive favourites really, they just have a hex over England.

You never know though.

I wonder if Dowson out means Wood in after his great performance today?

wood should start every game from now in for robshaw

Boys, my point is Ireland have a better head to head and generally do better in the 6N since 2003, last year aside and they still beat the GS champs last game into their GS.

When did France beat up Ireland? They drew after France intensity wore Ireland down, as did the Welsh team.

Anyone claiming the first game was Irelands worst has no idea about the game, they themselves said they played very well but were just beaten by a better team on the day, combinations and set peice went well, defencively they weren't the then thats generally not their strength.

England are Frances bogey team as France have been a much better side than England since 2003, yet they struggle against England, thats the description of 'bogey team' the weaker team regularly beating the stronger team. There is a case to be made that Scotland in Murrayfeild are Englands bogey team.

France weren't beaten up by England also, they weren't at the races from the off and England capitalised, there were moments where France threatened to blow England away, but made too many unforced errors.

Infact I'd go as far to say as just about the only game that didn't have long periods of lulls and showed poor patches of quality was the Wales Ireland game first up, and possibly Scotland V France.

so blues erm shock result today yeah, abit like italy last year wasnt it

By any measure Ireland are England's current bogey team. As France and New Zealand are Ireland's and Italy are Wales from time to time.

They're the ones who trip you up, who you can't put away, who manage to win a match despite you having put all the effort in, who give you a good scare, and who beat you when you're not expecting it. They're just bogey. And beating your bogey is always a good thing. So England will be well up for this.

trebellbobaggins wrote:It is very true that having all your resources n just a few sides works very well for Ireland. I cannot for the life of me see how England's thinly spread clubs can ever compete? I do wonder if it impacts depth though for Ireland? Doesn't seem to at mo though.

Given that the population of London is larger than that of the entire island of Ireland, then in theory London alone should be able to produce four teams of similar quality to the four Irish provinces. England's resources are not spread to thin. They have 3 times more top flight teams. And far more than 3 times more potential players as well as financial resources.

France haven't shown much sign of this better side to be honest. Lost far too many times to sides that were better than them on the day, all you can ask of them.

gowales wrote:Haven't really seen many games where the Irish Provinces have battered English Clubs either...

Dont Watch much rugby then ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9012982/Ulster-41-Leicester-Tigers-7-match-report.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2089971/Northampton-36-Munster-51-Simon-Zebo-lands-hat-trick-Saints-suffer-record-defeat.html Just from this season of the top of my head

Pot Hale wrote:By any measure Ireland are England's current bogey team. As France and New Zealand are Ireland's and Italy are Wales from time to time.

They're the ones who trip you up, who you can't put away, who manage to win a match despite you having put all the effort in, who give you a good scare, and who beat you when you're not expecting it. They're just bogey. And beating your bogey is always a good thing. So England will be well up for this.

Ireland are simply a better side than England and have been since 2003

Anyone claiming the first game was Irelands worst has no idea about the game

That's excessive. People are entitled to their point of view. I know for one thing that if I was Irish I'd see the performance against Wales as the worst of the lot, not to take anything away from a superb Welsh win.

gowales wrote:Haven't really seen many games where the Irish Provinces have battered English Clubs either...

Do you not have sky sports then?

Never seems to work out that way though. England do a terrible job of turningtheir good youngsters into something ready for the top level.

Still, it goes in cycles so enjoy it whilst you are up I reckon.

tecphobe wrote:

gowales wrote:Haven't really seen many games where the Irish Provinces have battered English Clubs either...

Dont Watch much rugby then ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9012982/Ulster-41-Leicester-Tigers-7-match-report.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2089971/Northampton-36-Munster-51-Simon-Zebo-lands-hat-trick-Saints-suffer-record-defeat.html Just from this season of the top of my head

Yea i know those games duh... Northampton should have beaten Munster in the first game though. Anyway, apart from this season Irish - English club games have usually been tightly contested.

flynnnio wrote:

gowales wrote:Haven't really seen many games where the Irish Provinces have battered English Clubs either...

Do you not have sky sports then?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/my_club/leinster/9362180.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/7676008.stm