6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

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IRELAND v ENGLAND
18 March 2017
KO: 17:00 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Mathieu Raynal (France) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Live on [BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)]

A. Head to Head

131 Played 131
47 Won 76
8 Drawn 8
76 Lost 47
1,079 Points 1,526

B. Recent Form

27 February 2016
Twickenham, London
21 – 10 to England

5 September 2015
Twickenham, London
21 – 13 to England

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

C. Teams

IRELAND

Payne; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Zebo; Sexton, Marmion; McGrath, Best (captain), Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip,

Replacements: Scannell, Healy, Ryan, Toner, O'Mahony, McGrath, Jackson, Conway.

ENGLAND

Brown; Watson, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Youngs; Marler, Hartley (captain), Cole; Launchbury, Lawes; Itoje, Haskell, B Vunipola.

Replacements: George, M Vunipola, Sinckler, Wood, Hughes, Care, Te'o, Nowell.

Sin é wrote:You think Barnes is quality because he never refs England. Ireland gave away something like 4 penalties to Wales and yet gets yellow carded while wales gave away about 12 penalties.

We see him in our domestic league just about every non-international weekend? As a Saints fan I should have plenty of reason to dislike but personally think he's one of the best now bar none. Used to feel he was a good ref but seemed to make 1 or 2 absolute howlers per game, hence the Graham Henry comments in 2007. But he's sorted that inconsistency out over the past few years.

Trust me, he's far and away vastly superior to the majority of ref's in the Aviva Premiership. It is weird that he seems to get more of your games but the same seems to go for most nations? England have already had Garces this tournament against Wales. Not complaining as I think he's generally an okay ref but don't understand how they allocate the games at all.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

cascough wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:No he definitely is. Do some research online no current referee has attracted as much controversy nor criticism as Barnes.

Want research? We should use facts, not opinion as confirmation bias shows that if you have an opinion you wont change it in the face of evidence.

He's refereed 10 Six Nations games for Ireland.

Ireland have conceded more penalties than their opponents on 2 of the 10 occasions.

Ireland have conceded 106 penalties, their opponents 126.

Ireland have received 7 yellow cards, their opponents 9.

Thus the mystery?

Ireland have also conceded above their average haul of penalties when he refs and have won way below their average win loss ratio.

Also how many of those games were against Wales?

But even if that's the case, neither of those two things imply bias when set against the statistics provided to you.

Yes they do.

Can you explain why a guy who went to school in wales and grew up 10 miles from Wales has reffed the majority of Ireland v Wales games in the last 10 years?

Strawman argument, most English people who grow up in or near Wales hate us.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Can you explain why a guy who went to school in wales and grew up 10 miles from Wales has reffed the majority of Ireland v Wales games in the last 10 years?

Are you actually implying he's downright biased and deliberately favours Wales over Ireland?

munkian wrote:

Strawman argument, most English people who grow up in or near Wales hate us.

'Cept Barnes

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

B91212 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Henderson starts too.

As an England fan my first thought when I read this was good, hopefully that means they have dropped the (in my opinion underrated) Ryan. Was disappointed to read on and find it was Toner who had dropped to the bench. Still think your backrow would be more balanced with POM starting and SOB coming off the bench against tired legs but I guess JS wants his big carriers running at Ford from the off. Plus it's not like England have the pure breakdown specialists that Wales do. Although POM may have helped the Irish lineout as well.

Looking forward to the game but very nervous.

I'm happy Toner has been dropped to the bench. Best took a lot of flak for the lineout malfunction against Wales, but I do think Toner was the issue. Hopefully we see a marked improvement, although I would have liked POM to start to help in that regard.

Delighted Payne is at 15. Much better than Kearney.

Losing Murray is a bit of a blow, but I don't think Marmion will let us down. I don't think Sexton deserves a start after his poor performance last week, but he would be a risk coming off the bench, so fair enough. Hoping he will have one of his good games, and not come off injured after 10 minutes, if he is on form.

Especially as Jackson will be the fall guy if they lose

That's a given. Schmidt already knows what he's going to say.

munkian wrote:

Strawman argument, most English people who grow up in or near Wales hate us.

Strawman response because a lot of them end up playing for Wales.

On the other hand there is no way a British ref should be reffing a British team.

Re Barnes and Ireland it's pretty similar to Eddie Jones and non rugby. Switches the attention from poor performances/results.

B91212 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Can you explain why a guy who went to school in wales and grew up 10 miles from Wales has reffed the majority of Ireland v Wales games in the last 10 years?

Are you actually implying he's downright biased and deliberately favours Wales over Ireland?

Can you explain why any referee at all is given the same fixture almost every year for the last ten years?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

B91212 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Can you explain why a guy who went to school in wales and grew up 10 miles from Wales has reffed the majority of Ireland v Wales games in the last 10 years?

Are you actually implying he's downright biased and deliberately favours Wales over Ireland?

Can you explain why any referee at all is given the same fixture almost every year for the last ten years?

'cause he likes reffing Welsh games?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re Barnes and Ireland it's pretty similar to Eddie Jones and non rugby. Switches the attention from poor performances/results.

Interesting how Irelands win loss rations are much higher with all other referees.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re Barnes and Ireland it's pretty similar to Eddie Jones and non rugby. Switches the attention from poor performances/results.

You think? I don't think it worked, 7.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

cascough wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:No he definitely is. Do some research online no current referee has attracted as much controversy nor criticism as Barnes.

Want research? We should use facts, not opinion as confirmation bias shows that if you have an opinion you wont change it in the face of evidence.

He's refereed 10 Six Nations games for Ireland.

Ireland have conceded more penalties than their opponents on 2 of the 10 occasions.

Ireland have conceded 106 penalties, their opponents 126.

Ireland have received 7 yellow cards, their opponents 9.

Thus the mystery?

Ireland have also conceded above their average haul of penalties when he refs and have won way below their average win loss ratio.

Also how many of those games were against Wales?

But even if that's the case, neither of those two things imply bias when set against the statistics provided to you.

Yes they do.

Can you explain why a guy who went to school in wales and grew up 10 miles from Wales has reffed the majority of Ireland v Wales games in the last 10 years?

It was demonstrated to you that Barnes penalised IRE's opposition more than he penalises IRE. He also gives out more Cards to the opposition than IRE.

You've responded with the fact that he penalises Ireland more than other refs, but all that means in isolation, is that he is pickier than other Refs. It does nothing to demonstrate Bias. If there was a correlation between Barnes penalising IRE more than their average whilst also penalising IRE more than their opponents then you might be able to argue bias. But there isn't. In fact the statistics demonstrating the referees actions rather undermine your arguement.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re Barnes and Ireland it's pretty similar to Eddie Jones and non rugby. Switches the attention from poor performances/results.

Interesting how Irelands win loss rations are much higher with all other referees.

They don't know the rules. Even Nigel lets a game 'flow' rather than do the rules.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re Barnes and Ireland it's pretty similar to Eddie Jones and non rugby. Switches the attention from poor performances/results.

You think?  I don't think it worked, 7.

I was just thinking the same thing. It's not like Schmidt and the players have escaped blame for the loss. In fact, Barnes has rarely been mentioned up until now o0

cascough wrote:



It was demonstrated to you that Barnes penalised IRE's opposition more than he penalises IRE. He also gives out more Cards to the opposition than IRE.

You've responded with the fact that he penalises Ireland more than other refs, but all that means in isolation, is that he is pickier than other Refs. It does nothing to demonstrate Bias. If there was a correlation between Barnes penalising IRE more than their average whilst also penalising IRE more than their opponents then you might be able to argue bias. But there isn't. In fact the statistics demonstrating the referees actions rather undermine your arguement.

That's irrelevant when all other refs penalised Ireland less than their opposition too. However, if he penalises Ireland more on average than other refs it may well demonstrate bias.

Do you have a logical response as to why he is given literally Ireland v Wales game?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re Barnes and Ireland it's pretty similar to Eddie Jones and non rugby. Switches the attention from poor performances/results.

Interesting how Irelands win loss rations are much higher with all other referees.

Partly down to the opponents, you've had Wales a lot of the time, quality team, Aus a fair few times I bet. one of those things.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re Barnes and Ireland it's pretty similar to Eddie Jones and non rugby. Switches the attention from poor performances/results.

You think?  I don't think it worked, 7.

Ha possibly not!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Can you explain why any referee at all is given the same fixture almost every year for the last ten years?

So it's conspiracy within World Rugby then? I'm pretty sure it would raise some flags somewhere if referees started asking for certain games that they want to officiate. Even more so when they ask for the same fixture year on year....

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re Barnes and Ireland it's pretty similar to Eddie Jones and non rugby. Switches the attention from poor performances/results.

You think?  I don't think it worked, 7.

I was just thinking the same thing. It's not like Schmidt and the players have escaped blame for the loss. In fact, Barnes has rarely been mentioned up until now o0

I'm not blaming Barnes specifically for the loss against wales last weekend. It was one of his better outings albeit over the course of the last 10 years he has been abdominal over all.

B91212 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Can you explain why any referee at all is given the same fixture almost every year for the last ten years?

So it's conspiracy within World Rugby then? I'm pretty sure it would raise some flags somewhere if referees started asking for certain games that they want to officiate. Even more so when they ask for the same fixture year on year....

You are still ignoring the question. Come on its not hard.

Can you explain why twice Steve Walsh pulled out as ref for Ireland games and can you guess who was the replacement each time?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I'm not blaming Barnes specifically for the loss against wales last weekend. It was one of his better outings albeit over the course of the last 10 years he has been abdominal over all.

Found him hard to stomach?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re Barnes and Ireland it's pretty similar to Eddie Jones and non rugby. Switches the attention from poor performances/results.

You think?  I don't think it worked, 7.

I was just thinking the same thing. It's not like Schmidt and the players have escaped blame for the loss. In fact, Barnes has rarely been mentioned up until now o0

I'm not blaming Barnes specifically for the loss against wales last weekend. It was one of his better outings albeit over the course of the last 10 years he has been abdominal over all.

Twisted gut syndrome?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

cascough wrote:



It was demonstrated to you that Barnes penalised IRE's opposition more than he penalises IRE. He also gives out more Cards to the opposition than IRE.

You've responded with the fact that he penalises Ireland more than other refs, but all that means in isolation, is that he is pickier than other Refs. It does nothing to demonstrate Bias. If there was a correlation between Barnes penalising IRE more than their average whilst also penalising IRE more than their opponents then you might be able to argue bias. But there isn't. In fact the statistics demonstrating the referees actions rather undermine your arguement.

That's irrelevant when all other refs penalised Ireland less than their opposition too. However, if he penalises Ireland more on average than other refs it may well demonstrate bias.

Do you have a logical response as to why he is given literally Ireland v Wales game?

I find it difficult to come up with a logical response to an illogical consipracy theory. By all means if you've got any sort of facts then I'd be more interested.

It's far from irrelevant, it's pretty much the only set of facts you'll actually be able to get. And plain and simple, they say he penalises Ireland less than their opposition.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I'm not blaming Barnes specifically for the loss against wales last weekend. It was one of his better outings albeit over the course of the last 10 years he has been abdominal over all.

Found him hard to stomach?

Haha yes. Auto correct

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

B91212 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Can you explain why any referee at all is given the same fixture almost every year for the last ten years?

So it's conspiracy within World Rugby then? I'm pretty sure it would raise some flags somewhere if referees started asking for certain games that they want to officiate. Even more so when they ask for the same fixture year on year....

You are still ignoring the question. Come on its not hard.

Can you explain why twice Steve Walsh pulled out as ref for Ireland games and can you guess who was the replacement each time?

Steve had an urgent hair appointment, Wayne stepped up to the mark

Given Barnes is one of the best refs around for years certainly in the NH, Owens can't ref, it's really been him, Poite or a SH ref.

cascough wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

cascough wrote:



It was demonstrated to you that Barnes penalised IRE's opposition more than he penalises IRE. He also gives out more Cards to the opposition than IRE.

You've responded with the fact that he penalises Ireland more than other refs, but all that means in isolation, is that he is pickier than other Refs. It does nothing to demonstrate Bias. If there was a correlation between Barnes penalising IRE more than their average whilst also penalising IRE more than their opponents then you might be able to argue bias. But there isn't. In fact the statistics demonstrating the referees actions rather undermine your arguement.

That's irrelevant when all other refs penalised Ireland less than their opposition too. However, if he penalises Ireland more on average than other refs it may well demonstrate bias.

Do you have a logical response as to why he is given literally Ireland v Wales game?

I find it difficult to come up with a logical response to an illogical consipracy theory. By all means if you've got any sort of facts then I'd be more interested.

It's far from irrelevant, it's pretty much the only set of facts you'll actually be able to get. And plain and simple, they say he penalises Ireland less than their opposition.

Its not a conspiracy theory. He has reffed the majority of Ireland v Wales games. It is a fact. Its not a difficult question.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given Barnes is one of the best refs around for years certainly in the NH, Owens can't ref, it's really been him, Poite or a SH ref.

cascough wrote:



It was demonstrated to you that Barnes penalised IRE's opposition more than he penalises IRE. He also gives out more Cards to the opposition than IRE.

You've responded with the fact that he penalises Ireland more than other refs, but all that means in isolation, is that he is pickier than other Refs. It does nothing to demonstrate Bias. If there was a correlation between Barnes penalising IRE more than their average whilst also penalising IRE more than their opponents then you might be able to argue bias. But there isn't. In fact the statistics demonstrating the referees actions rather undermine your argument.

Cas, this is usually a fun/banter-lite topic with me.  Stir the pot and join the fun kinda thing.  But it really is quite logical to debate one's way past your stats points and indeed use them to make a case for a personage covering their tracks by leaving those stats behind them.  

We have an unenviable record with Wayne.  That's another stat.  It's just there in black and white.  'Coincidence' is always a concept that might be put out there to explain the anomaly away but, whatever the explanation, it's not a record any side would enjoy and therefore it's obvious Wayne gets mighty peculiar looks from Irish fans when he turns up to ref us.  He's as haunted by the enigma of what happens when we cross paths as we are.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given Barnes is one of the best refs around for years certainly in the NH, Owens can't ref, it's really been him, Poite or a SH ref.

But Ireland only have a 25% win rate with Peyper so he's in on the World Rugby conspiracy too, and he could take over more.

Munchkin wrote:I'm happy Toner has been dropped to the bench. Best took a lot of flak for the lineout malfunction against Wales, but I do think Toner was the issue. Hopefully we see a marked improvement, although I would have liked POM to start to help in that regard.

Hooker always invariably gets the blame from the fans when it can be many reasons why they go wrong. I think the better lineout callers, when things are going wrong, start calling the throws away from them instead of trying to single handedly makes things right by calling everything to themselves, thus enabling opposition jumpers to tightly mark them and thus put even more pressure on the thrower.

SecretFly wrote:Cas, this is usually a fun/banter-lite topic with me.  Stir the pot and join the fun kinda thing.  But it really is quite logical to debate one's way past your stats points and indeed use them to make a case for a personage covering their tracks by leaving those stats behind them.  

We have an unenviable record with Wayne.  That's another stat.  It's just there in black and white.  'Coincidence' is always a concept that might be put out there to explain the anomaly away but, whatever the explanation, it's not a record any side would enjoy and therefore it's obvious Wayne gets mighty peculiar looks from Irish fans when he turns up to ref us.  He's as haunted by the enigma of what happens when we cross paths as we are.

So he gives Ireland penalties that are in less important areas, and yellows to less important players/during less important moments?

He has quite a lot to consider when refereeing Ireland then!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re Barnes and Ireland it's pretty similar to Eddie Jones and non rugby. Switches the attention from poor performances/results.

You think?  I don't think it worked, 7.

I was just thinking the same thing. It's not like Schmidt and the players have escaped blame for the loss. In fact, Barnes has rarely been mentioned up until now o0

I'm not blaming Barnes specifically for the loss against wales last weekend. It was one of his better outings albeit over the course of the last 10 years he has been abdominal over all.

Yep, I'm never confident when Barnes refs us, but the loss to Wales was all our own making. Even though, as an Ulster man, Garces is my sworn enemy, I'm very happy with him reffing for this game. Hopefully he might even be a bit of a homer

Scottrf wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Cas, this is usually a fun/banter-lite topic with me.  Stir the pot and join the fun kinda thing.  But it really is quite logical to debate one's way past your stats points and indeed use them to make a case for a personage covering their tracks by leaving those stats behind them.  

We have an unenviable record with Wayne.  That's another stat.  It's just there in black and white.  'Coincidence' is always a concept that might be put out there to explain the anomaly away but, whatever the explanation, it's not a record any side would enjoy and therefore it's obvious Wayne gets mighty peculiar looks from Irish fans when he turns up to ref us.  He's as haunted by the enigma of what happens when we cross paths as we are.

So he gives Ireland penalties that are in less important areas, and yellows to less important players/during less important moments?

He has quite a lot to consider when refereeing Ireland then!

I'm saying such a deduced conclusion isn't illogical and therefore the stats used are of limited use.

Any moment now a discussion about a rugby game will break out

SecretFly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Cas, this is usually a fun/banter-lite topic with me.  Stir the pot and join the fun kinda thing.  But it really is quite logical to debate one's way past your stats points and indeed use them to make a case for a personage covering their tracks by leaving those stats behind them.  

We have an unenviable record with Wayne.  That's another stat.  It's just there in black and white.  'Coincidence' is always a concept that might be put out there to explain the anomaly away but, whatever the explanation, it's not a record any side would enjoy and therefore it's obvious Wayne gets mighty peculiar looks from Irish fans when he turns up to ref us.  He's as haunted by the enigma of what happens when we cross paths as we are.

So he gives Ireland penalties that are in less important areas, and yellows to less important players/during less important moments?

He has quite a lot to consider when refereeing Ireland then!

I'm saying such a deduced conclusion isn't illogical and therefore the stats used are of limited use.  

It's quite illogical. Either he's a xenophobe and willing to risk his career in order to favour a nation in a rugby match, or he's paid off by World Rugby to help Ireland lose (why?).

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Any moment now a discussion about a rugby game will break out

Heads - Tails. Tails it is. You start. So is that a winning side Joe picked Geen?

B91212 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I'm happy Toner has been dropped to the bench. Best took a lot of flak for the lineout malfunction against Wales, but I do think Toner was the issue. Hopefully we see a marked improvement, although I would have liked POM to start to help in that regard.

Hooker always invariably gets the blame from the fans when it can be many reasons why they go wrong. I think the better lineout callers, when things are going wrong, start calling the throws away from them instead of trying to single handedly makes things right by calling everything to themselves, thus enabling opposition jumpers to tightly mark them and thus put even more pressure on the thrower.

Absolutely. I think a big problem is that our lineout has become very easy to read/predict and, in spite of Toners size advantage, he has been out thought, and out jumped. England will certainly prove a stern test for our lineout, so it will be interesting to see how Ryan and Henderson cope.

Scottrf wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

I'm saying such a deduced conclusion isn't illogical and therefore the stats used are of limited use.  

It's quite illogical. Either he's a xenophobe and willing to risk his career in order to favour a nation in a rugby match, or he's paid off by World Rugby to help Ireland lose (why?).

It ain't illogical.  That's the only point.

Well it's not done is career much harm. He's had 3 world cups and at least two semis ( giggle) at them.

Despite the controversy.

Munchkin wrote:

B91212 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I'm happy Toner has been dropped to the bench. Best took a lot of flak for the lineout malfunction against Wales, but I do think Toner was the issue. Hopefully we see a marked improvement, although I would have liked POM to start to help in that regard.

Hooker always invariably gets the blame from the fans when it can be many reasons why they go wrong. I think the better lineout callers, when things are going wrong, start calling the throws away from them instead of trying to single handedly makes things right by calling everything to themselves, thus enabling opposition jumpers to tightly mark them and thus put even more pressure on the thrower.

Absolutely. I think a big problem is that our lineout has become very easy to read/predict and, in spite of Toners size advantage, he has been out thought, and out jumped. England will certainly prove a stern test for our lineout, so it will be interesting to see how Ryan and Henderson cope.

POC should be brought in to the Ireland side (oops - as a coach! ).  I knows he's a Munster man but we have to overlook that shortcoming for the goodness of the side.  He'd improve our lineout smarts.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

cascough wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

cascough wrote:



It was demonstrated to you that Barnes penalised IRE's opposition more than he penalises IRE. He also gives out more Cards to the opposition than IRE.

You've responded with the fact that he penalises Ireland more than other refs, but all that means in isolation, is that he is pickier than other Refs. It does nothing to demonstrate Bias. If there was a correlation between Barnes penalising IRE more than their average whilst also penalising IRE more than their opponents then you might be able to argue bias. But there isn't. In fact the statistics demonstrating the referees actions rather undermine your arguement.

That's irrelevant when all other refs penalised Ireland less than their opposition too. However, if he penalises Ireland more on average than other refs it may well demonstrate bias.

Do you have a logical response as to why he is given literally Ireland v Wales game?

I find it difficult to come up with a logical response to an illogical consipracy theory. By all means if you've got any sort of facts then I'd be more interested.

It's far from irrelevant, it's pretty much the only set of facts you'll actually be able to get. And plain and simple, they say he penalises Ireland less than their opposition.

Its not a conspiracy theory. He has reffed the majority of Ireland v Wales games. It is a fact. Its not a difficult question.

I know you're being difficult on purpose but I will clarify. Clearly you were alluding to the fact that Wayne Barnes reffing Ireland Wales so many times (including 2 late drop outs of other refs) is indicitave of some sort of conspiracy, clearly demonstrated by the fact Ireland have a terrible record under Barnes.

Now I don't know why Barnes has reffed that fixture so many times but until you can produce some facts about how this has affected the result I'm not really interested in discussing it. (please note, telling me the results, ie Ireland losing, is not the same as demonstrating how Barnes has affected that).

As I've said, there is one measure of the referees actions, and they show he penalises Ireland less than your opposition. This measure therefore cannot be used to show Barnes is biased against Ireland. Therefore, unless you have other facts relating to unfair treatment of Ireland by Barnes, any bias you purport will be based solely on your opinion. I can't refute that, nor will I try. But It's important to note, it is only based on your opinion, not facts.

Positive changes. Hopefully Henderson is back to his best.

Gooseberry wrote:Well it's not done is career much harm. He's had 3 world cups and at least two semis ( giggle) at them.

Despite the controversy.  

It isn't a controversy. It's an anomaly. Maybe the Roswell aliens got a lot to do with it; I'm not ruling them out. But it's an interesting anomaly.

SecretFly wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Any moment now a discussion about a rugby game will break out

Heads - Tails.  Tails it is.  You start.  So is that a winning side Joe picked Geen?

I think we will win. Henderson makes sense would prefer to see POM with regards to securing our own ball and also ball protection. Murray is a loss and Payne for rk is an improvement. It won't be pretty but 3-0 would work for me

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

B91212 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I'm happy Toner has been dropped to the bench. Best took a lot of flak for the lineout malfunction against Wales, but I do think Toner was the issue. Hopefully we see a marked improvement, although I would have liked POM to start to help in that regard.

Hooker always invariably gets the blame from the fans when it can be many reasons why they go wrong. I think the better lineout callers, when things are going wrong, start calling the throws away from them instead of trying to single handedly makes things right by calling everything to themselves, thus enabling opposition jumpers to tightly mark them and thus put even more pressure on the thrower.

Absolutely. I think a big problem is that our lineout has become very easy to read/predict and, in spite of Toners size advantage, he has been out thought, and out jumped. England will certainly prove a stern test for our lineout, so it will be interesting to see how Ryan and Henderson cope.

POC should be brought in to the Ireland side.  I knows he's a Munster man but we have to overlook that shortcoming for the goodness of the side.  He'd improve our lineout smarts.

Actually, that might not be a bad idea. Not as a player, but as an assistant coach. I think he would work wonders for our lineout .... even with the disadvantage of not being a true Blue

Munchkin wrote:

B91212 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I'm happy Toner has been dropped to the bench. Best took a lot of flak for the lineout malfunction against Wales, but I do think Toner was the issue. Hopefully we see a marked improvement, although I would have liked POM to start to help in that regard.

Hooker always invariably gets the blame from the fans when it can be many reasons why they go wrong. I think the better lineout callers, when things are going wrong, start calling the throws away from them instead of trying to single handedly makes things right by calling everything to themselves, thus enabling opposition jumpers to tightly mark them and thus put even more pressure on the thrower.

Absolutely. I think a big problem is that our lineout has become very easy to read/predict and, in spite of Toners size advantage, he has been out thought, and out jumped. England will certainly prove a stern test for our lineout, so it will be interesting to see how Ryan and Henderson cope.

Who will be calling the lineouts? Ryan?

carpet baboon wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

B91212 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I'm happy Toner has been dropped to the bench. Best took a lot of flak for the lineout malfunction against Wales, but I do think Toner was the issue. Hopefully we see a marked improvement, although I would have liked POM to start to help in that regard.

Hooker always invariably gets the blame from the fans when it can be many reasons why they go wrong. I think the better lineout callers, when things are going wrong, start calling the throws away from them instead of trying to single handedly makes things right by calling everything to themselves, thus enabling opposition jumpers to tightly mark them and thus put even more pressure on the thrower.

Absolutely. I think a big problem is that our lineout has become very easy to read/predict and, in spite of Toners size advantage, he has been out thought, and out jumped. England will certainly prove a stern test for our lineout, so it will be interesting to see how Ryan and Henderson cope.

Who will be calling the lineouts? Ryan?

I would have to think Ryan will be in the driving seat. He has the experience over Henderson, and he's a good operator.

I could be regretting my words but for me, yeah Payne might be ready to give more to the 15 position than Kearney has of late.  I hope that isn't a yellow or red card so Payne's enthusiasm to be back in the side better not let his eagerness get the better of him. But I'm happy enough that it's a change in a position that needs attention.
But even more so, I gotta say, I'm at least hoping Marmion will give us a different dimension from 9.  I admit he's more my idea of what a 9 should be.  He'll probably be put under a lot of pressure in defence but...well, we have to see if we have anything else going on in that position apart from Murray.  10 and 9 are pretty much the conductors of the show so I for one will be interested to see what Marmion can add, if anything, to our game when going forward.