British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

by 123456789 Thu 23 Mar 2017, 6:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

Fairly simple, champions cup aside, we have nearly all the information Garland will have to pick the Lions squad, so go ahead name your squad, your captain etc.

by beshocked Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:46 pm

RDW Scotland totally agree.

Jonny May is overrated by quite a few England fans because he's fast. Yarde is another.

I'd definitely pick Seymour ahead of those two.

Didn't realise Williams try scoring record was that poor. Not good at all....

by 123456789 Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:46 pm

SecretFly wrote:
123456789 wrote:The funniest aspect of all this is that I don't like Gatland, I don't rate his rugby and I wouldn't take him at any of the teams I have interest. Yet if he wins this series he can probably put his hand up as the best ever coach of the British and Irish Lions. In terms of what he'd have achieved firstly he'll have toured with the 2009 group who nearly beat the best team in the world at the time and arguably saved the Lions as a concept, beat Australia in 2013 and New Zealand and 2017.

Oh I don't know. The whole thing has so many tentacles that virtually every possible story can be attached to the Lions myth.

Is beating SH sides all that special anymore? Well, only New Zealand holds on to the aura. Are most NH sides now much more professional and ready to cope with the 'natural' swagger and fizzikalitee of SH sides?

So what real comparisons do you make between ultra Professional National sides now v amateur sides of docs, farmers and solicitors of the past? Steadily that gap between the traditionally strong SH and the awkward and plodding NH has lessened as the decades of Professionalism roll by. Indeed, I think in the next number of Lions years it might become a bit of a joke to have 4 independent International teams gang up on single Nation sides and call series victories over them amazing achievements. The amazing achievement will be (and in my opinion already is) what those single Nation sides can accomplish against De Lions juggernaut.

So Gatland already has his supporters as one of the best coaches (even before the coming Lions tour) but he'll also have the nitty gritty critics that will say what he has achieved isn't remotely close to what the lads who lived in Black & white achieved before him.

I think in terms of South Africa and Australia at the moment certainly the difficulty lies in bringing together an appropriate team within 7-8 weeks, if England or Ireland were to tour either of them in a non-Lions year at the moment they'd expect to win the series 3-0 and Scotland and Wales would go with a very decent chance of winning the series.
New Zealand on the other hand remains the ultimate; at times over the last six years a rest of the world team would have lost to New Zealand. Nonetheless the entirety of Britain and Ireland going over to a country with a population smaller than Scotland's should be a fairly damning indictment on ourselves.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:46 pm

So to confirm you are now giving Hartley full credit for that record equalling run then beshocked. Good to hear. And we are acknowledging strength of teams when discussing head to head. Again great.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:47 pm

Am dreading tomorrow. I just know I'm going to be disappointed.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:48 pm

I also agree with Graham Henry that the itinerary is suicide. It is absolute madness to play so many games.

I remember in the '05 tour Gordan Darcy was selected for the 3rd test v NZ but asked Woodward if he could sit it out because he had absolutley nothing left in the tank.

I can see the same happening on this tour. Playing the Highlanders between the three tests seems particularly mad.

by ChequeredJersey Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:50 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Am dreading tomorrow. I just know I'm going to be disappointed.

Traditionally we know that there will be many injury call ups though

Tactics and the actual matches scare me more than the selection. Though what has been leaked has actually been as bad as the worst parodies of Gatland's selection that I could conjure

by **RDW** Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:50 pm

beshocked wrote:RDW Scotland totally agree.

Jonny May is overrated by quite a few England fans because he's fast. Yarde is another.

I'd definitely pick Seymour ahead of those two.

Didn't realise Williams try scoring record was that poor. Not good at all....

Maitland has been a great player for Sarries this season but hasn't quite done the business for Scotland over the last season or two. His strike rate for Scotland isn't great either at 5 tries in 28 caps but he is a very good all round winger.

by beshocked Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So to confirm you are now giving Hartley full credit for that record equalling run then beshocked. Good to hear. And we are acknowledging strength of teams when discussing head to head. Again great.

No, no 7 & 1/2 because unlike you I don't think Hartley singlehandedly got England to 18 victories.

FES indeed I expect to be disappointed too.

RDW Scotland it would be nice if Maitland scored more tries agreed. Defensively he's good but yes his attacking as a whole isn't quite there. Now I think he can finish well but perhaps he doesn't create enough opportunities.

by Scottrf Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:52 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
cascough wrote:Here's one for you. There's a rumour doing the rounds that Dylan Hartley is the preferred choice for captain (credit @rugbyinsideline).
That account is notorious. Almost like it tries a lot of long shots in the hope of getting credit for those which come good. I see just afterwards it reports Sam Warburton picked up with his bag spacked.

They are 3/3 for signings that they say are done deals though. But yeah some rumours are just that.

by Gwlad Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:55 pm

miaow wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Back to constructive debate the only reason I can see for Gatland omitting Joseph is that he doesn't suit the game plan that Gats wishes to employ - in which case we are looking at Warrenball surprisingly enough.

Literally what I've been saying, but worded differently.

Where you (presumably) see 'Warrenball' as primarily a negative thing, I see it as a basic, pragmatic blueprint that enables a team to beat an opposition through tactical control rather than relying on luck or talent etc. The results are mixed, but- on the whole- positive. I have also said this blueprint will have/needs to have some novelty to it in order for the Lions to be competitive, and, frankly, 'Warrenball' usually does this when it matters (RWCs, big games etc). It's a crude and simplified characterisation to just label Warrenball as crashball and nothing else.

Anyway, back to Joseph. If (not you specifically) you can get past the idea that Warrenball is a negative, then isn't it sensible for Gatland to pick what he knows, and more importantly, needs for his basic blueprint? Whilst I'm slightly surprised and disappointed Joseph is likely to miss out completely, it does make sense if you're making the deicision with skin in the game; if you have a general gameplan in mind, then selecting a 13 wholly different to everyone else means that, come the warm ups, you're having to tailor your gameplan to suit this player which, due to the nature of the Lions, you simply don't have the time nor wiggle room in terms of standard of opposition to do.

Frankly, Joseph isn't a good fit for the Gatland plan at 13, which is what I've been saying for 6 months. He's an excellent player, one of the best in the NH, and were he a winger, he'd be in there like a shot. With a different coach, he'd be Lions standard, no doubt. But this is Gatland. Just as there is little point selecting Gatland and getting upset when his team doesn't play 7s style rugby, it's pointless selecting Joseph at 13 if you're then asking him to play in a way where he is worse than several other 13s in the NH.

Which, if we're honest, is the case. He didn't have a good Six Nations. Other than against Scotland, he didn't shine with ball in hand, which was worrying, because it's the one exceptional thing about him that can counteract his deficiencies in defensive power and positional discipline. He's not a great distributor or kicker of the ball, either, so effectively you're selecting a running threat at 13- as I said, Gatland will only have a player like that on the wing, not 15, not 13.

It's unfortunate for Joseph, but stylistic versatility relative to the other centre options doesn't actually go in his favour here, quite the opposite. Critique that coaching methodology all you like, but you have to be able to see the merits of it, surely?

Parklife

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Apr 2017, 4:56 pm

Ok beshocked. We'll just go back to Hartley bullying george off the park.

by ChequeredJersey Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:00 pm

I'm really confused: I would say that over the past 3 seasons Joseph has been the best defensive 13 in International Rugby with very little competition. His attack was off this 6N for much of it, but defensively he is a rock, with great positioning and tackling. Why do some people think his defence of all things is a weakness?

by cascough Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:00 pm

beshocked wrote:
cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
beshocked wrote:Well at least my irritation would bring joy to posters such as you cascough. Silver lining I guess.

Also his significant fan base will be very pleased with the decision.

Jamie George probably became a fan after Hartley taught him a thing or two about leadership at the weekend.

I think the person who got taught a lesson was J.Mallinder more than anyone. You'd think after a 3rd narrow loss he'd learn by now.

Got to close a game out.

George himself I doubt will be too upset - afterall his team still won and he as an ERCC semi final to look forward to.

Must have been painful for Hartley to see his side fall apart when watching from the bench. I take solace in that.

By the way I don't dislike Saints - mainly just Hartley, shame to see Picamoles go off like that. I like the look of H.Mallinder.

Seems a funny way of saying that Hartley outplayed George, but I'm sure that if that game were to be the deciding factor in one of those two making the touring party (as was reported) then you won't begrudge Hartley his place?

Depends if you think a Lions spot should go to Hartley based on a relatively insignificant club game where the opposition had one eye on the week after and Hartley's team still lost.

Personally I think Saints should have been 17 points up at half time not 7. Needed to give themselves enough of a lead to be victorious.

One could argue Hartley won the battle but then again he should, he was playing in a 1st choice pack against a side who were playing an 18 year old at lock, their 2 3rd choice props, 2nd choice 6 and 8.

Plus his team still lost. If Hartley gets credit for victories that he wasn't on the field to see out he shouldn't be allowed to get away with losses.

Ooh that's a bit naughty beshocked. You're twisting things a little here aren't you?

I don't think it should come down to 1 game, but if, as reported, the Lions coaches couldn't separate the 2, and so had put everything on that last game, then for Hartley and George it was hardly meaningless.

Now, Hartley has been credited for victories he has not seen out because of his leadership and the tone he sets in training all week. You know, inspiring the team with self belief? But we are not talking about his leadership here. Hartley was better than George as a player in that game, plain and simple. It's been pointed out to you numerous times that England are ahead more often than not when he goes off, and Northampton were ahead on Sunday. Purely from a playing point of view, Hartley did the business over George on Sunday.

by beshocked Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ok beshocked. We'll just go back to Hartley bullying george off the park.

Anything to make your deity (Dylan Hartley) look good. Might as well ignore the kickable penalties given away too.

The more you dissect the performance, the more overrated, Hartley becomes.....

cascough and yet Saints lost, Saracens won, George was captain. Sarries strategy worked, the reinforcements on the bench brought home the victory.

Hartley might well have won his personal H2H but in the grand scheme of things it didn't matter, Saints still lost. His leadership counted for little because his team did not capitalise.

Big game for Hartley and Saints, for Saracens the win is a bonus, game vs Munster is the big one. The amount of players rested suggests this.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:04 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'm really confused: I would say that over the past 3 seasons Joseph has been the best defensive 13 in International Rugby with very little competition. His attack was off this 6N for much of it, but defensively he is a rock, with great positioning and tackling. Why do some people think his defence of all things is a weakness?

His defence is not better than Payne's defence IMO.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:05 pm

Really? Who apart from your good self refers to players as deitys? I mean he wasn't perfect just better than the guy opposite! I know as you hate the guy you're finding and have found it hard to judge him fairly. Rise above your hatred.

by beshocked Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:10 pm

I can judge him fairly - scored a good try, gave away at least one kickable penalty, lost at least one lineout, made 4 tackles in 60 minutes 9 (according to BT stats anyway) - Hartley's best performance of the season but in a season of mediocre/lacklustre performances not hard.

cascough I am sure if George had outperformed Hartley it would have been ignored anyway. George-Hartley has been only highlighted because it gives certain posters an opportunity to gloat.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:11 pm

Ah. An admittance that george was outplayed. Wow. We mat move on from this after all.

by beshocked Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah. An admittance that george was outplayed. Wow. We mat move on from this after all.

And yet I expect the gloating from you and Sgt Poorly to continue.

On the day yes, Hartley played better but it didn't matter in the end and shouldn't matter when it comes to selecting the Lions.

by mikey_dragon Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:12 pm

There aren't really any individual try-scorers for Wales; the tries scored seem a bit more spread out across the backs. A few of LW tries have been scored this season which indicates he's currently in try-scoring form. If he hadn't scored much lately I doubt people would want to leave him out as he's a quality player.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:15 pm

Dont see what all the fuss about George is. Dont think he has ever started a test match has he? Looked ordinary enough when he came on in Dublin.

by **RDW** Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:21 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:There aren't really any individual try-scorers for Wales; the tries scored seem a bit more spread out across the backs. A few of LW tries have been scored this season which indicates he's currently in try-scoring form. If he hadn't scored much lately I doubt people would want to leave him out as he's a quality player.

I think he should travel but I was just surprised at how awful his try scoring stats are. It really doesn't make great reading for him to have 7 more caps than Seymour but half the number of tries - especially when you consider that Scotland have been pretty gash during a lot of Seymour's caps.

by mikey_dragon Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:26 pm

Liam Williams was in the team for a while before scoring a try but I remember most viewers still being impressed by his contribution. I would guess a fair few caps have been off the bench too.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:28 pm

Not gloating beshocked. There has been a certain amount of jumping on it as you're usually very keen to use h2h s as the be all and end all. I'm still hoping gatland has the sense to take both players.

by **RDW** Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:29 pm

43 caps, 38 starts

http://en.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/player/136556.html

It comes down to what you want from your wingers I suppose - I want them to score tries and be good in the air, without being too porous in defence. Williams probably brings more to a team than Seymour does in terms of all round play but is less of a finisher - Seymour gets you tries.

We've had this debate many times on the Scotland threads about Visser or Maitland - Visser scores a lot more tries but might let in a few in defence, whereas Maitland is very good in most aspects of his game but doesn't score so many tries.

by cascough Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:35 pm

If it's maitland vs visser, maitland will get the nod. Gats is a fan.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 18 Apr 2017, 5:53 pm

Seymour a fairish shout, but Maitland/Visser!?!?!?

Finally BS admits Hartley is a better than George!

by mikey_dragon Tue 18 Apr 2017, 6:05 pm

Visser looked class against Wales...

by **RDW** Tue 18 Apr 2017, 6:19 pm

Visser certainly won't be in the squad but Gatland is a fan of Maitland, who is now a regular for Sarries, so may have a chance

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 18 Apr 2017, 6:19 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Visser looked class against Wales...

Didn't everyone Wink

by mikey_dragon Tue 18 Apr 2017, 6:24 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Visser looked class against Wales...

Didn't everyone

Nathan Hughes and Dylan Hartley were the only one not to, sorry to burst your bubble Very Happy

.

It's typical that everyone saves their big performance for Wales. I wish people would take a day off...

by Gwlad Tue 18 Apr 2017, 6:35 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Visser looked class against Wales...

Didn't everyone

Yeah, Stuart Lancaster was in the remedial class.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 18 Apr 2017, 6:36 pm

Haha.....now now boys!

by Guest Tue 18 Apr 2017, 6:45 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:As an aside, Liam Williams only has 8 tries in 43 tests (18.6%) - I think he deserves to tour but that is a pretty terrible strike rate for an international class back 3 player!

Saw a lot of game time from the bench, coming in for a one off game as injury cover before being dropped the next, or playing out of position. Sometimes, all three at once. I'd be interested to see his tries to games ration since the RWC. I'm amazed he's nearly picked up 50 caps to be honest.

Not sure whether some posters have watched Seymour? Behind Jonny May!? He's an excellent player, a very modern winger, good in the air, strong, fast. Wouldn't be surprised to see him start the Tests.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 18 Apr 2017, 6:49 pm

I don't comment on a player unless I've seen him Miaow, unlike a few posters I could mention.....

by Guest Tue 18 Apr 2017, 6:54 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't comment on a player unless I've seen him Miaow, unlike a few posters I could mention.....

I know. State of this forum, Pooly.

To be fair, Seymour hasn't particularly shone for Scotland, but he's been far from poor/poorer than Jonny May. He's looked immense for Glasgow, so I suppose English fans might be missing something of him if they don't keep a good eye on the Pro12. That said, I think he's proven himself at Test level, and would be a perfect foil to North.

by Guest Tue 18 Apr 2017, 6:56 pm

Gwlad wrote:

Parklife

Stepped up your trolling, Gwlad, chwarae teg. thumbsup

Pondlife...

by king_carlos Tue 18 Apr 2017, 7:16 pm

Seymour's a cracking winger. Finishes chances and tenacious as hell in contact and defence. I hope he tours because I think he'd surprise quite a few if given a chance. With North in poor form I could certainly see him really challenging that left wing berth if given a chance. He'd be my starter at 11 if I had to pick a side right now.

1.McGrath 2.George 3.Furlong 4.Itoje 5.J Gray 6.Stander 7.Tipuric 8.Vunipola
9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Seymour 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Hogg

16.Best 17.Vunipola 18.Cole 19.Wyn-Jones 20.Faletau 21.Webb 22.Henshaw 23.Williams

by Taylorman Tue 18 Apr 2017, 7:21 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I also agree with Graham Henry that the itinerary is suicide. It is absolute madness to play so many games.

I remember in the '05 tour Gordan Darcy was selected for the 3rd test v NZ but asked Woodward if he could sit it out because he had absolutley nothing left in the tank.

I can see the same happening on this tour. Playing the Highlanders between the three tests seems particularly mad.

Highlanders won't have their ABs, and missing the likes of the two Smiths, Naholo, Squire, Elliot etc and the fact that they have a pack that's already struggling in Super rugby should see the Lions ok for that one.

It's the early matches between the Blues, who have their ABs, probably won't have qualified for the Super playoffs by then, and will want to make this match the pinnacle of their year, and the Crusaders that are the toughest.

by Taylorman Tue 18 Apr 2017, 7:24 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:There aren't really any individual try-scorers for Wales; the tries scored seem a bit more spread out across the backs. A few of LW tries have been scored this season which indicates he's currently in try-scoring form. If he hadn't scored much lately I doubt people would want to leave him out as he's a quality player.

More importantly he always plays well against the All Blacks. Few, if any do that consistently. Certain selection based on that criteria. Easily the best and most effective back here last year.

by **RDW** Tue 18 Apr 2017, 8:10 pm

miaow wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:As an aside, Liam Williams only has 8 tries in 43 tests (18.6%) - I think he deserves to tour but that is a pretty terrible strike rate for an international class back 3 player!

Saw a lot of game time from the bench, coming in for a one off game as injury cover before being dropped the next, or playing out of position. Sometimes, all three at once. I'd be interested to see his tries to games ration since the RWC. I'm amazed he's nearly picked up 50 caps to be honest.

Not sure whether some posters have watched Seymour? Behind Jonny May!? He's an excellent player, a very modern winger, good in the air, strong, fast. Wouldn't be surprised to see him start the Tests.

As I said earlier he's got 43 caps, 38 starts - only benched 5 games apparently

I wholeheartedly agree about Seymour / May though!

by **RDW** Tue 18 Apr 2017, 8:40 pm

Very fair summary from Tom English about Scotland's chances

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/39631391

by True Raven Tue 18 Apr 2017, 9:50 pm

Fagerson has no chance. A tight head needs to scrummage first before being called up to the lions.

It wouldn't surprise me to only see Hogg as the sole Scottish tourist, however it would be ridiculous and Dunbar, Gray (J), Russell and Seymour would be in my squad

People (the Irish) criticised Gatland before the last third test for dropping BOD and Gatlands decision was justified with a record victory . So I'll hold off crucifying Gatland for his squad until after the third test against New Zealand.

by Guest Tue 18 Apr 2017, 10:01 pm

Gatland will be crucified regardless of what squad he picks. It's a completely impossible task (pleasing the fans). There is absolutely no agreement on who the 'best' players are and who should be picked, so whatever squad is announced tomorrow it will be met with disdain by whichever fans do not get their minimum quota of fellow countrymen, or their favourite player, etc.

by SecretFly Tue 18 Apr 2017, 10:02 pm

True Raven wrote:

People (the Irish) criticised Gatland before the last third test for dropping BOD and Gatlands decision was justified with a record victory . So I'll hold off crucifying Gatland for his squad until after the third test against New Zealand.

Gatland's decision was finally to stop playing around with and toying with Australia. That's what won the final game with the record victory, not the dropping of one player. Gatland finally got around to playing the high tempo aggressive rugby that the Lions (given the players at their disposal) always had in their arsenal against Australia but didn't get around to playing until that final game.

by Exiledinborders Tue 18 Apr 2017, 10:24 pm

Griff wrote:Gatland will be crucified regardless of what squad he picks. It's a completely impossible task (pleasing the fans). There is absolutely no agreement on who the 'best' players are and who should be picked, so whatever squad is announced tomorrow it will be met with disdain by whichever fans do not get their minimum quota of fellow countrymen, or their favourite player, etc.

Fair comment unless Roberts tours in which case Gatland deserves all the abuse that comes his way.

by Mr Bounce Tue 18 Apr 2017, 10:28 pm

All I am hoping is that players are picked on form and not past glories.

by nathan Tue 18 Apr 2017, 10:37 pm

Lions: Hartley to miss out, 15 Englishmen to make it, only one Scot (Hogg), Roberts included but doubts over AW Jones due to injury...

by SecretFly Tue 18 Apr 2017, 10:39 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:All I am hoping is that players are picked on form and not past glories.

People say this but think about form.
Some players seem to do very well in Autumn and yet don't look so hot in February. So turn that around and why should the form of February/March speak to how form might be going in June/July? We'll naturally answer; "well a coach has to make a judgement about something and current form is all he has to go on."
Not really though. Some players are simply big game players and to pick them requires a degree of gazing at past glories and having the instinct to know what kind of competition turns them on.

by SecretFly Tue 18 Apr 2017, 10:40 pm

nathan wrote:Lions: Hartley to miss out, 15 Englishmen to make it, only one Scot (Hogg), Roberts included but doubts over AW Jones due to injury...

Is this a crystal ball talking or are you using your Russian hacking contacts, Nathan?

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