British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Fairly simple, champions cup aside, we have nearly all the information Garland will have to pick the Lions squad, so go ahead name your squad, your captain etc.

I think Scottish players blew their chance at Twickenham. A huge game and they were utterly shown up.

Played well at home where the pressure was off.

A massive disappointment.

I see the BBC, bastion of clinical fact checking, has followed BT Sport down the yellow brick road of comforting fantasy:

'Gatland, who has been Wales coach since 2007, has chosen 16 England players, 12 Welsh, 11 Irish and two from Scotland.  Wales finished fifth in the 2017 Six Nations, below champions England, with Ireland third and Scotland fourth.
"I didn't realise the split in the numbers," 53-year-old New Zealander Gatland said on the issue.'

SecretFly wrote:I see the BBC, bastion of clinical fact checking, has followed BT Sport down the yellow brick road of comforting fantasy:

'Gatland, who has been Wales coach since 2007, has chosen 16 England players, 12 Welsh, 11 Irish and two from Scotland.  Wales finished fifth in the 2017 Six Nations, below champions England, with Ireland third and Scotland fourth.
"I didn't realise the split in the numbers," 53-year-old New Zealander Gatland said on the issue.'

Scotland beat Ireland - very little bile against them though, hmmm.

I'd love to be on the training paddock when Sexton and Farrell,world class players coached by Schmidt and Fast Eddie, receive their backplay and kicking coaching from Useless Bob and The Waterboy.The line between comedy and tragedy is indeed a thin one.

Really? I think with Scotland their depth is the problem. A first 15-20 who are really good but scratch below that and you start to see a real drop off. Granted england are very good and would back themselves to win against anyone at home but the way the match panned out shouldn't have been held against them surely?

munkian wrote:

R!skysports wrote:One of the key moments was the face on Gatland when Scotland beat Wales - you knew he was not impartial at all and was just waiting for a reason to de-select for his own favs

Not as bad as 2005, but about 50% of the way there

Do you actually watch rugby or just look for injustices against Scotland ?

Don't need to look :-)

munkian wrote:I think Scottish players blew their chance at Twickenham. A huge game and they were utterly shown up.

Played well at home where the pressure was off.

A massive disappointment.

I think Welsh players improved their chances at Murrayfield.  A huge game and they were utterly shown up.  

Played well at home where the pressure was off.

A massive achievement.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Really? I think with Scotland their depth is the problem. A first 15-20 who are really good but scratch below that and you start to see a real drop off. Granted england are very good and would back themselves to win against anyone at home but the way the match panned out shouldn't have been held against them surely?

If this was directed at me then yes. A Scottish win wasn't out of the question, England hadn't really dominated anyone till Scotland.

They completely capitulated.

SecretFly wrote:

munkian wrote:I think Scottish players blew their chance at Twickenham. A huge game and they were utterly shown up.

Played well at home where the pressure was off.

A massive disappointment.

I think Welsh players improved their chances at Murrayfield.  A huge game and they were utterly shown up.  

Played well at home where the pressure was off.

A massive achievement.

Still not sure how your shower managed 11 players when Scotland beat you.

munkian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I see the BBC, bastion of clinical fact checking, has followed BT Sport down the yellow brick road of comforting fantasy:

'Gatland, who has been Wales coach since 2007, has chosen 16 England players, 12 Welsh, 11 Irish and two from Scotland.  Wales finished fifth in the 2017 Six Nations, below champions England, with Ireland third and Scotland fourth.
"I didn't realise the split in the numbers," 53-year-old New Zealander Gatland said on the issue.'

Scotland beat Ireland - very little bile against them though, hmmm.

? Did they?

Oh f**k... I thought we won all our games but just lost out to England on the phone voting.

Yes munkian it was at you. You don't think those injuries hit hard? I find it strange anyone could be judged on 1 game alone. I'm sure gatland didn't.

That said he did last time in the 30 3 game so perhaps you're correct.

munkian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I see the BBC, bastion of clinical fact checking, has followed BT Sport down the yellow brick road of comforting fantasy:

'Gatland, who has been Wales coach since 2007, has chosen 16 England players, 12 Welsh, 11 Irish and two from Scotland.  Wales finished fifth in the 2017 Six Nations, below champions England, with Ireland third and Scotland fourth.
"I didn't realise the split in the numbers," 53-year-old New Zealander Gatland said on the issue.'

Scotland beat Ireland - very little bile against them though, hmmm.

Wales have more players than Ireland too! The number of Irish players is about right. Reflecting their place in the world rankings and in the 6N tournament.

I'm really trying to be paitient and explain this to you but I am starting to struggle. Wales have been poor this season. It is a fact. Scotland, Ireland and England have been playing well.

Is it really so difficult to understand? I'll get my daughter to use some crayons to explain this for you, and I can take a picture and post it up here if it helps you to see what I'm saying. Failing that I could explain it with some sock puppets and post a video up here?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes munkian it was at you. You don't think those injuries hit hard? I find it strange anyone could be judged on 1 game alone. I'm sure gatland didn't.

Yet Wales shouldn't have any backrow players in the Lions because we lost one game to Scotland in a decade

Did Ireland finish third? Who was second?

munkian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

munkian wrote:I think Scottish players blew their chance at Twickenham. A huge game and they were utterly shown up.

Played well at home where the pressure was off.

A massive disappointment.

I think Welsh players improved their chances at Murrayfield.  A huge game and they were utterly shown up.  

Played well at home where the pressure was off.

A massive achievement.

Still not sure how your shower managed 11 players when Scotland beat you.

Yeah.  I'm having the same head scratching moments about all that.  
Here they were, the only side to have beaten New Zealand and the England team within the last five months and we still end up getting 11 players squeezed in.  I think the 11 must be going to hold the luggage for the 12 Welsh lads.  Gats himself is carrying Warburton's bits and pieces.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I see the BBC, bastion of clinical fact checking, has followed BT Sport down the yellow brick road of comforting fantasy:

'Gatland, who has been Wales coach since 2007, has chosen 16 England players, 12 Welsh, 11 Irish and two from Scotland.  Wales finished fifth in the 2017 Six Nations, below champions England, with Ireland third and Scotland fourth.
"I didn't realise the split in the numbers," 53-year-old New Zealander Gatland said on the issue.'

Scotland beat Ireland - very little bile against them though, hmmm.

Wales have more players than Ireland too! The number of Irish players is about right. Reflecting their place in the world rankings and in the 6N tournament.

I'm really trying to be paitient and explain this to you but I am starting to struggle. Wales have been poor this season. It is a fact. Scotland, Ireland and England have been playing well.

Is it really so difficult to understand? I'll get my daughter to use some crayons to explain this for you, and I can take a picture and post it up here if it helps you to see what I'm saying. Failing that I could explain it with some sock puppets and post a video up here?

All I heard was 'Arrgh, winge, auld enemy, injustice and deep fried mars bars'

I didn't say that did I munkian? Granted I do think selecting Warburton and moriarty is a bit of a joke.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I didn't say that did I munkian? Granted I do think selecting Warburton and moriarty is a bit of a joke.

This should be good...

Still waiting on why you think judging a one off game where there was a massive shuffle due to injuries is suitable to define who you would pick munkian.

"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villian."

Harvey Dent said that in the Dark Knight. It's whats happened to Gatland. He rescued the Lions ethos from the damage done to it by Woodward in 2005.

Geech and Gatland saved it in 2009 and Gatland was the hero in 2013. He has now been in the job long enough to become the villain, and his 12 welsh buddies picks with credit in the bank has made him the new Woodward circa 2005.

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I didn't say that did I munkian? Granted I do think selecting Warburton and moriarty is a bit of a joke.

This should be good...

Warburton (if fit) deserves a spot on the plane - he was definitely one of the best Welsh players this season and would be my starting test 7 for the Lions. I'd probably have made Best tour captain on fitness grounds mind (as well as mid week team captain). Moriarty is a good defensive tackling 6 & covers 8 (though doesn't carry enough as an 8 for my liking). Watson & Tipuric were probably in direct competition for a spot, & it's a close call between them.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I would say they is a good chance Hartley will be called up. In the last two tours a hooker was called up and in '05 4 hookers were taken on tour. In '01 there was also a hooker called up.

Agreed, although I wonder if he'll agree to it. He's been named captain of the England tour to Argentina. Having been snubbed he may well choose his England commitments. I suppose it'll depend on when the call-up comes.

If not Hartley, who else would Gatland call up? I suppose it's a contest between Baldwin, Cronin, Brown and Ford.

Scott Baldwin's in no sort of form. He's not even the best hooker at the Ospreys.

That's not to say he won't be called up.

Not sure why the Welsh are getting a battering. I think all countries (except Scotland) have players in the squad who should count themselves lucky to be there...

eirebilly wrote:Not sure why the Welsh are getting a battering. I think all countries (except Scotland)  have players in the squad who should count themselves lucky to be there...

A voice of reason

eirebilly wrote:Not sure why the Welsh are getting a battering. I think all countries (except Scotland)  have players in the squad who should count themselves lucky to be there...

Bit harsh on POM. Who are the lucky Irish players? Henderson I suppose.

Munkian?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Munkian?

Si ?

I'm really trying to be paitient and explain this to you but I am starting to struggle. Wales have been poor this season. It is a fact. Scotland, Ireland and England have been playing well.

Radge I know you are hurting and I can agree with you, but to say Wales have been poor is wrong, we were leading you at half time and deservedly so, yes we capitulated 2nd half and you very deservedly hammered us. If that idiot Gareth Davies had waited at the most another second or so and passed the ball back to the returning Dan Biggar that kick against England would have gone to a right footed kicker, much easier for a right footed kicker on the left hand side of the field, as against a leftie (Jonathon Davies), we would have beaten England and deservedly so.

I've said on another page that I would have had Finn over Dan and how either or both Grays haven't gone above either Henderson or Lawes is also wrong, and personally I think JD is also fortunate, and as I've also explained elsewhere Watson should also be there not in front of either of the Welsh boys but definitely in front of O'Brien. Perhaps as others have alluded to and Gatland said a few months ago, Townsend and apparently another Scot was invited to be part of the Coaching group and refused, so any 50/50 decisions went against the Scots for that very reason, very unfortunate.

Why do you feel basing selection or at least heavily weighting it to 1 game a good way to go about things? Especially a game like you picked out which was impacted by injuries from a squad which I personally don't think has great strength in depth.

munkian wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Not sure why the Welsh are getting a battering. I think all countries (except Scotland)  have players in the squad who should count themselves lucky to be there...

A voice of reason

Because there aren't any lucky Irish players? Payne is a terrific player at 15 and 13 (13 being a position of weakness for the Lions with the 2 best 13s in the hospital Mark Bennett & Huw Jones). He for me is the luckiest player from Ireland. Henderson is a terrific lock and I don't mind him traveling over Gray. Taking an injured AWJ over Launchberry or Gray however is a bit of a stretch.

Teo is the lucky one from England. However I can see the reasoning. There isn't much between him and Henshaw and Gatland likes a battering ram so that one can be explained away.

Youngs is fortunate that Laidlaw is injured and Marmion is somewhat unproven.

However the welsh lads who are lucky, an injured Warburton, and injured AWJ, an out of form Biggar, an out of form Halfpenny, an out of Form Davies and Tipuric who hasn't played as well as some of his peers (Haskell and Watson).

eirebilly wrote:Not sure why the Welsh are getting a battering. I think all countries (except Scotland)  have players in the squad who should count themselves lucky to be there...

The big news is the 'except Scotland' bit, billy.  

And let's not be seeding this notion that Welsh lads are cowering in a corner as the big bad basterdes from the North and West and East of them are stonin' them to death.

They're well able to do some dirty fightin' of their own and aren't adverse to the sneering pops at them poor Scottish fans who were left cowering in a corner as Gats the Great ordered them to be stoned to death.....   ....

Oh and don't spoil a party. De Lions only works when the drawma is at Pantomime level.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Not sure why the Welsh are getting a battering. I think all countries (except Scotland)  have players in the squad who should count themselves lucky to be there...

Bit harsh on POM. Who are the lucky Irish players?

Payne - I don't see the need for a utility 13/15 in the squad when Daly, Davies, Te'o, Henshaw can all play 13 while Daly, Halfpenny, Henshaw, Hogg, Nowell, Watson & Williams can all play 15. I'd have left 1 of Payne/Davies/Halfpenny at home & either taken 40 players or taken another winger. Maybe Maitland to keep the Kiwi quota up

Possibly Henderson - another utility when a specialist like Launchbury/J Gray missed out - I'd have left Lawes home though

JD lucky to be there, disagree with the grief Moriarty has been getting - took to Test rugby very well and has been consistent for his club too.

Out of the Irish players I'd say Best is very very lucky.

I'd have included Russell as a bolter as he offers something different coming off the bench.

But again, I reiterate that at least 10 players will get call ups due to injury so there's no point any fan going to the darkside just yet because 'their' players haven't been picked.

Payne's form has been good though Pete whereas T'eo only has a handfull of average games from the bench and Halfpenny has been off form and off confidence. He even turned down kicks when AWJ asked to take them because he didnt feel confident. I also think Payne is a better 15 than all the players you mention except Hogg and maybe Williams. Davies is going on past form alone it seems.

The only reason Payne is a surprise is because he missed the six nations otherwise I feel he meets the right criteria.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Payne's form has been good though Pete whereas T'eo only has a handfull of average games from the bench and Halfpenny has been off form and off confidence. He even turned down kicks when AWJ asked to take them because he didnt feel confident. I also think Payne is a better 15 than all the players you mention except Hogg and maybe Williams. Davies is going on past form alone it seems.

The only reason Payne is a surprise is because he missed the six nations otherwise I feel he meets the right criteria.

I'm not too fussed about Payne being picked but can you really say his form is good when he missed the whole 6N??

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Not sure why the Welsh are getting a battering. I think all countries (except Scotland)  have players in the squad who should count themselves lucky to be there...

Bit harsh on POM. Who are the lucky Irish players?

Payne - I don't see the need for a utility 13/15 in the squad when Daly, Davies, Te'o, Henshaw can all play 13 while Daly, Halfpenny, Henshaw, Hogg, Nowell, Watson & Williams can all play 15. I'd have left 1 of Payne/Davies/Halfpenny at home & either taken 40 players or taken another winger. Maybe Maitland to keep the Kiwi quota up

Possibly Henderson - another utility when a specialist like Launchbury/J Gray missed out - I'd have left Lawes home though

Lawes touring and Launchbury / Jonny Gray being left out is one of the strangest calls.

Lawes was better than AWJ every week in the 6 Nations and isn't injured yet he's the strange call

munkian Moriarty isn't as good as the other backrowers picked and is inferior to a few not picked. That's the problem.

Moriarty doesn't offer anything different.

Same reason I would have picked Ford or Russell instead of Biggar. Biggar is likely 3rd choice 10.


Halfpenny certainly shouldn't be in the squad either. He's been picked as 3rd choice 15 and his goalkicking won't be needed if either Sexton or Farrell start (if one is fit this will likely happen)

RDW_Scotland wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Payne's form has been good though Pete whereas T'eo only has a handfull of average games from the bench and Halfpenny has been off form and off confidence. He even turned down kicks when AWJ asked to take them because he didnt feel confident. I also think Payne is a better 15 than all the players you mention except Hogg and maybe Williams. Davies is going on past form alone it seems.

The only reason Payne is a surprise is because he missed the six nations otherwise I feel he meets the right criteria.

I'm not too fussed about Payne being picked but can you really say his form is good when he missed the whole 6N??

Yeah because he played a key role in all of Ireland's big wins in the last few years. He also did play in the Ireland v England game in the Aviva. This game was also POMs only game for Ireland in some time, POM didnt feature in the wins v SA and NZ unlike Payne.

Scottrf wrote:Lawes was better than AWJ every week in the 6 Nations and isn't injured yet he's the strange call

Plenty of people have already done the AWJ thing though - the question was about non-Welsh "surprises". For what it's worth I'd have left both Lawes and AWJ home for J Gray and Launchbury. Launchbury was one of the players of the 6N, so is IMO the most unlucky non-selection

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