British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Scottrf wrote:Lawes was better than AWJ every week in the 6 Nations and isn't injured yet he's the strange call

AWJ is a leader and well respected by his peers as well as being a former winning Lions test captain.

Lions players aren't just based on how well they did in the six nations, they are picked on how well the coaches think they will gel into the squad.

You need leaders on and off the pitch.

Yeah the only confirmation was by gatland saying it would cost Scottish players in tight decisions.

Griff wrote:

beshocked wrote:Wasn't Townsend asked to be an assistant to Howley?

An assistant to an assistant basically?

Think Gatland is still holding a grudge.

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/16057/10688295/lions-decision-will-be-gregor-townsends-loss-says-warren-gatland

No, that was only ever suggested in a quote by a Scottish Daily Mail (!) journo. It's never been mentioned by anyone else or come out via any official channels. Howley was geared up to lead Wales on their summer tour to the PIs.

Has it been confirmed what role, Townsend was offered?

munkian wrote:

TrailApe wrote:

I'm an official representative of the non-Welsh contingent. Or 'the others' as Gatland calls us.

Hugely sure the Irish and the English didn't elect you.

He gets my vote.

1 vote ! Get in, another fwiend and it will be the same amount as Scottish Lions.

Get with the snugglepuss ethos, Munk.  It's the Lions...there are no Scots, Welsh, English or Irish players... only LIONS!  


.......................................... and two Scots.

beshocked wrote:

Griff wrote:

beshocked wrote:Wasn't Townsend asked to be an assistant to Howley?

An assistant to an assistant basically?

Think Gatland is still holding a grudge.

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/16057/10688295/lions-decision-will-be-gregor-townsends-loss-says-warren-gatland

No, that was only ever suggested in a quote by a Scottish Daily Mail (!) journo. It's never been mentioned by anyone else or come out via any official channels. Howley was geared up to lead Wales on their summer tour to the PIs.

Has it been confirmed what role, Townsend was offered?

The same one Howley got, after Townsend turned it down.

So Radge predicted

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Wales had 4 more - Is the outrage appropriate ?

Griff wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Griff wrote:

beshocked wrote:Wasn't Townsend asked to be an assistant to Howley?

An assistant to an assistant basically?

Think Gatland is still holding a grudge.

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/16057/10688295/lions-decision-will-be-gregor-townsends-loss-says-warren-gatland

No, that was only ever suggested in a quote by a Scottish Daily Mail (!) journo. It's never been mentioned by anyone else or come out via any official channels. Howley was geared up to lead Wales on their summer tour to the PIs.

Has it been confirmed what role, Townsend was offered?

The same one Howley got, after Townsend turned it down.

Does anyone seriously think the presence of Townsend would have turned 12 into 2 and 2 into 12? I'm cynical me and nope, I don't believe Townsend would have been able to do the Jesus act. But it's a nice theme to run through the Lions tour with all the same as a regular debate shaper.

munkian wrote:So Radge predicted

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Wales had 4 more - Is the outrage appropriate ?

4 is a big enough number in a 15 man game.

I just really hope we have a coach who is not the current coach of one of the 4 teams next time.

munkian wrote:So Radge predicted

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Wales had 4 more - Is the outrage appropriate ?

You seem to think that it's the number of Welsh players that matter! It's the proportions that are all wrong. Wales have perfomed worse than Ireland and Scotland over the course of this season True or False?

If true, you can surely see where some of the outrage comes from?

The way I read the Gatland / Townsend article, Gatland was saying Townsend turned him down to help develop Scotland, but Gatland said going with the Lions would develop Townsend better as a coach, and therefore be good for Scotland's development in the longer term.

I think it's a stretch to believe Gatland turned down Scottish players to get back at Townsend, but that stretch is nothing compared to believing he'd be stupid enough to come out and say that he would do so in the press.

Gatland didn't say it would be to get back at townsend but did say there would be no one to argue for Scottish players without a scotland coach on his staff.

munkian wrote:So Radge predicted

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Wales had 4 more - Is the outrage appropriate ?

Moving from one to the other -

English players took one place from Scottish players and one place from Irish players (to get England to 16 and Ireland to 11) - Scotland left on 8.

2 players were cut from the squad - Radge had 43, Gatland 41. Both Scottish.

Then Welsh players took 4 spots off Scottish players.

I think Radge's point is Scottish players have been shafted, and Welsh players are the main beneficiaries.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just really hope we have a coach who is not the current coach of one of the 4 teams next time.

It doesn't seem feasible that could happen.

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just really hope we have a coach who is not the current coach of one of the 4 teams next time.

It doesn't seem feasible that could happen.

Hansen will be retiring the NZ job in 2019 ...

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just really hope we have a coach who is not the current coach of one of the 4 teams next time.

It doesn't seem feasible that could happen.

Vern Cotter would have fit the bill.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just really hope we have a coach who is not the current coach of one of the 4 teams next time.

Agreed.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatland didn't say it would be to get back at townsend but did say there would be no one to argue for Scottish players without a scotland coach on his staff.

Can't see a quote to that effect in the Sky Sports article linked.

"I had a conversation with Gregor, he had a release in his contract. I personally thought it would have been brilliant for his development for him to go on a Lions tour.

"Unfortunately, I think it is going to be his loss, and ultimately Scotland's loss as well."

I read that as the loss is to Scotland as a team, not individual Scottish players in terms of Lions selection.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatland didn't say it would be to get back at townsend but did say there would be no one to argue for Scottish players without a scotland coach on his staff.

We call that an indirect counter-attack. We all know what Gatland says and we can have a pretty good guess at what he means. But it's all just semantics anyway as Gatland was never going to drop 2 Welsh players into any Lions side he coached.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just really hope we have a coach who is not the current coach of one of the 4 teams next time.

It doesn't seem feasible that could happen.

Hansen will be retiring the NZ job in 2019 ...

And depending on whether or not Warrenball is successful at the 11th time of asking he might step into the All Blacks job, leaving Howley looking after Wales.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:So Radge predicted

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Wales had 4 more - Is the outrage appropriate ?

You seem to think that it's the number of Welsh players that matter! It's the proportions that are all wrong. Wales have perfomed worse than Ireland and Scotland over the course of this season True or False?

If true, you can surely see where some of the outrage comes from?

I don't think any of it matters to be honest, when it comes down to the first game fans will cheer the team on regardless.

Will me agreeing with you make you feel better ?

It may not in that article but he did say it robbo.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just really hope we have a coach who is not the current coach of one of the 4 teams next time.

It doesn't seem feasible that could happen.

Vern Cotter would have fit the bill.

Next Lions tour is 4 years away - I'd suspect that any tidy coach with their contract running out in the next couple of years would be snapped up way before then - probably by one of our four Nations.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It may not in that article but he did say it robbo.

Where then ?

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It may not in that article but he did say it robbo.

Where then ?

http://www.scrummagazine.com/2017/03/12/gatland-someone-needs-push-case-scottish-players/

munkian wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:So Radge predicted

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Wales had 4 more - Is the outrage appropriate ?

You seem to think that it's the number of Welsh players that matter! It's the proportions that are all wrong. Wales have perfomed worse than Ireland and Scotland over the course of this season True or False?

If true, you can surely see where some of the outrage comes from?

I don't think any of it matters to be honest,  when it comes down to the first game fans will cheer the team on regardless.

Will me agreeing with you make you feel better ?

I'd be quite uncomfortable if we found agreement on anything

In all seriousness, based on what I've read about, listened to and watched with regards to the Lions represntation and Scotland's lack of representation is that Scotland as a team are good and better than the sum of their parts, hence on the one on one and head to heads the Welsh lads have gotten the nod.

If that was the end of the story I'd go skipping off into the sunset and leave it at that, however that's not the end of the story. Mainly because Wales have been rank rotten this year. Now if their players are the superstars we are led to believe surely the coaches in Wales are doing a dreadful job?

Who's on charge of the Lions again?

It'll be online somewhere ill find it for you if you can't remember it. It was quite a stupid thing to say.

Ah thanks scott.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:So Radge predicted

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Wales had 4 more - Is the outrage appropriate ?

You seem to think that it's the number of Welsh players that matter! It's the proportions that are all wrong. Wales have perfomed worse than Ireland and Scotland over the course of this season True or False?

If true, you can surely see where some of the outrage comes from?

I don't think any of it matters to be honest,  when it comes down to the first game fans will cheer the team on regardless.

Will me agreeing with you make you feel better ?

I'd be quite uncomfortable if we found agreement on anything

In all seriousness, based on what I've read about, listened to and watched with regards to the Lions represntation and Scotland's lack of representation is that Scotland as a team are good and better than the sum of their parts, hence on the one on one and head to heads the Welsh lads have gotten the nod.

If that was the end of the story I'd go skipping off into the sunset and leave it at that, however that's not the end of the story. Mainly because Wales have been rank rotten this year. Now if their players are the superstars we are led to believe surely the coaches in Wales are doing a dreadful job?

Who's on charge of the Lions again?

Coaches in Wales are doing a poor job in my opinion - regionally and at the top.

Gatland got the gig because he managed to win the last tour and no one else seemed to put their hand up for it.

I think 'rank rotten' is over egging it slightly - we had our most successful AI and it was a very very tight six nations bar one or two matches (ahem)

Scottrf wrote:

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It may not in that article but he did say it robbo.

Where then ?

http://www.scrummagazine.com/2017/03/12/gatland-someone-needs-push-case-scottish-players/

Thanks, hadn't read that. Definitely saying something different to the Sky article.

Does anyone know if he asked Vern Cotter or a representative for Scotland to sit in on selection meetings?

munkian wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:So Radge predicted

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Wales had 4 more - Is the outrage appropriate ?

You seem to think that it's the number of Welsh players that matter! It's the proportions that are all wrong. Wales have perfomed worse than Ireland and Scotland over the course of this season True or False?

If true, you can surely see where some of the outrage comes from?

I don't think any of it matters to be honest,  when it comes down to the first game fans will cheer the team on regardless.

Will me agreeing with you make you feel better ?

I'd be quite uncomfortable if we found agreement on anything

In all seriousness, based on what I've read about, listened to and watched with regards to the Lions represntation and Scotland's lack of representation is that Scotland as a team are good and better than the sum of their parts, hence on the one on one and head to heads the Welsh lads have gotten the nod.

If that was the end of the story I'd go skipping off into the sunset and leave it at that, however that's not the end of the story. Mainly because Wales have been rank rotten this year. Now if their players are the superstars we are led to believe surely the coaches in Wales are doing a dreadful job?

Who's on charge of the Lions again?

Coaches in Wales are doing a poor job in my opinion - regionally and at the top.

Gatland got the gig because he managed to win the last tour and no one else seemed to put their hand up for it.

I think 'rank rotten' is over egging it slightly -  we had our most successful  AI and it was a very very tight six nations bar one or two matches (ahem)

Windup mode off,

By Wales Standards it was a big drop. Not helped by guys like Halfpenny and JD2 having dips in form. You showed up for the Ireland game, and the 1st half against us and drifted in and out of the England game.

Results in the Autumn went your way but it was not a vintage welsh performance. You remind me of when Scotland looked utterly devoid of talent and inspiration before Cotter came in.

munkian wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:So Radge predicted

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Wales had 4 more - Is the outrage appropriate ?

You seem to think that it's the number of Welsh players that matter! It's the proportions that are all wrong. Wales have perfomed worse than Ireland and Scotland over the course of this season True or False?

If true, you can surely see where some of the outrage comes from?

I don't think any of it matters to be honest,  when it comes down to the first game fans will cheer the team on regardless.

Will me agreeing with you make you feel better ?

I'd be quite uncomfortable if we found agreement on anything

In all seriousness, based on what I've read about, listened to and watched with regards to the Lions represntation and Scotland's lack of representation is that Scotland as a team are good and better than the sum of their parts, hence on the one on one and head to heads the Welsh lads have gotten the nod.

If that was the end of the story I'd go skipping off into the sunset and leave it at that, however that's not the end of the story. Mainly because Wales have been rank rotten this year. Now if their players are the superstars we are led to believe surely the coaches in Wales are doing a dreadful job?

Who's on charge of the Lions again?

Coaches in Wales are doing a poor job in my opinion - regionally and at the top.

Gatland got the gig because he managed to win the last tour and no one else seemed to put their hand up for it.

I think 'rank rotten' is over egging it slightly -  we had our most successful  AI and it was a very very tight six nations bar one or two matches (ahem)

Purely in terms of win percentage, yes. But we were horrible in the Autumn. The Wallabies haven't had an easier win for years and years.

munkian wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:So Radge predicted

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

Wales had 4 more - Is the outrage appropriate ?

You seem to think that it's the number of Welsh players that matter! It's the proportions that are all wrong. Wales have perfomed worse than Ireland and Scotland over the course of this season True or False?

If true, you can surely see where some of the outrage comes from?

I don't think any of it matters to be honest,  when it comes down to the first game fans will cheer the team on regardless.

Will me agreeing with you make you feel better ?

I'd be quite uncomfortable if we found agreement on anything

In all seriousness, based on what I've read about, listened to and watched with regards to the Lions represntation and Scotland's lack of representation is that Scotland as a team are good and better than the sum of their parts, hence on the one on one and head to heads the Welsh lads have gotten the nod.

If that was the end of the story I'd go skipping off into the sunset and leave it at that, however that's not the end of the story. Mainly because Wales have been rank rotten this year. Now if their players are the superstars we are led to believe surely the coaches in Wales are doing a dreadful job?

Who's on charge of the Lions again?

Coaches in Wales are doing a poor job in my opinion - regionally and at the top.

Gatland got the gig because he managed to win the last tour and no one else seemed to put their hand up for it.

I think 'rank rotten' is over egging it slightly -  we had our most successful  AI and it was a very very tight six nations bar one or two matches (ahem)

Though technically a successful Ais for Wales in terms of results the performances weren't great.

Hammered by the Aussies, just about squeaked past Japan, defeated the worst SA side in years (they lost to Italy too), defeated a very poor Argentina side.

Its not THAT controversial though is it ?

If someone isn't there to maybe offer some inside knowledge when it comes down to deciding a close call then the other player won't get the nod.

Not exactly a conspiracy.

Win is a win when it comes down to rankings and competition results though surely ?

England didn't run rampant every match with a try BP but they still won back to back six nations.

munkian wrote:Its not THAT controversial though is it ?

If someone isn't there to maybe offer some inside knowledge when it comes down to deciding a close call then the other player won't get the nod.

Not exactly a conspiracy.

I think I agree with this by and large.

I'm shocked he couldn't find room for a couple more Scottish players - I'd have had Watson in the squad at least. But for the genuinely close calls, the coaches can't be blamed with going with the players they know - and the Scottish players were the least well known to the coaches.

I don't know if it's acceptable to say this, but I'm really looking forward to the tour now. I probably shouldn't, given that it's to New Zealand and Howley is the backs coach and all, but now that the squad's been named, I can't wait to see how it all comes together. There's always something special about seeing players who've only ever been rivals suddenly becoming team mates.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I don't know if it's acceptable to say this, but I'm really looking forward to the tour now. I probably shouldn't, given that it's to New Zealand and Howley is the backs coach and all, but now that the squad's been named, I can't wait to see how it all comes together. There's always something special about seeing players who've only ever been rivals suddenly becoming team mates.

It's allowed LP - plenty of other threads for negativity

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I don't know if it's acceptable to say this, but I'm really looking forward to the tour now. I probably shouldn't, given that it's to New Zealand and Howley is the backs coach and all, but now that the squad's been named, I can't wait to see how it all comes together. There's always something special about seeing players who've only ever been rivals suddenly becoming team mates.

I disagree with a few selections, but no one individual selection has put a dampener on the tour for me.

My real issue are the 10/12 selections lining us up to play "Warrenball". I'm well aware that there aren't that many more playmaking 12s after Farrell, but the selection of Henshaw and Te'o with only two fly-halves before you consider where Farrell is going to fit in suggests he may not be entertaining the idea of twin play-makers, which I think will be a shame with the quality of outside back available to the Lions.

If they were all firing; Murray, Sexton, Williams, Farrell, Joseph, North, Hogg would be a site to behold. If not, you have Webb, Daly and Watson who can also come in there. Get some ball-playing brutes in the pack and you have a very good side waiting to happen.

Would have been more optimistic had the squad been chosen on fitness and form tbh.

Just to go back to previous debate -

Reported in the Times today :

There were also no Scottish voices in the selection meeting after Gatland’s attempts to appoint Gregor Townsend and then Jason O’Halloran, Scotland’s attack coach, on to his coaching team had been rebuffed.

So some ire could be aimed elsewhere ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would have been more optimistic had the squad been chosen on fitness and form tbh.

Hard to do it when the season isn't over.

Injuries will inevitably happen.

Could simply be who stays fit.

A ridiculous schedule doesnt help.

Squad is chosen now.

The ire is at the selectors for not doing their job.

Scottish fans might well have the last laugh. The tour will be bruising. Scotland will go into next year relatively unscathed.

I'm shocked he couldn't find room for a couple more Scottish players

it's been said before - but worth repeating - it's a very tough schedule, there are a few crunching domestic games to go before they fly south so it's a chance that some of the English and Irish players might get crocked and whilst the Welsh are not in any of the big European competitions (funny that ain't it) there's a few still carrying injuries, so there could be a constant stream of Scots heading south as the bodycount mounts.

Deliicious irony if the final test has more Scots than anyone else.

munkian wrote:Just to go back to previous debate -

Reported in the Times today :

There were also no Scottish voices in the selection meeting after Gatland’s attempts to appoint Gregor Townsend and then Jason O’Halloran, Scotland’s attack coach, on to his coaching team had been rebuffed.

So some ire could be aimed elsewhere ?

  O'Halloran and Gatland? Would that really work?

aucklandlaurie wrote:

munkian wrote:Just to go back to previous debate -

Reported in the Times today :

There were also no Scottish voices in the selection meeting after Gatland’s attempts to appoint Gregor Townsend and then Jason O’Halloran, Scotland’s attack coach, on to his coaching team had been rebuffed.

So some ire could be aimed elsewhere ?

  O'Halloran and Gatland? Would that really work?

Possibly not but how far are they expected to go to make things 'fair' bar listening to Andy feicing Nichol ?

I found Gatland's comments on the number of representatives from each country surprising as he claims to have been unaware. He states he just selected the best players. End of. If that is true then he and his coaches have totally failed to appreciate how important this aspect is in uniting the fans behind the team. I am not asking him to select a Scot just for the hell of it, but where the calls are marginal then this is a factor. But clearly the bias towards players you know cannot be avoided. Just look at Rowntree's influence in getting Sinckler and Marler selected. I am sure they could have squeezed another couple of Scots without weakening the bloated squad of 41.

By being professional surely?

No 7&1/2 wrote:By being professional surely?

You really need to start quoting the person you are replying to....

munkian wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

munkian wrote:Just to go back to previous debate -

Reported in the Times today :

There were also no Scottish voices in the selection meeting after Gatland’s attempts to appoint Gregor Townsend and then Jason O’Halloran, Scotland’s attack coach, on to his coaching team had been rebuffed.

So some ire could be aimed elsewhere ?

  O'Halloran and Gatland? Would that really work?

Possibly not but how far are they expected to go to make things 'fair' bar listening to Andy feicing Nichol ?

Short straw, long straws. Short straw you go, long straw you stay at home and weep. Fair. Kinda - as I'm sure Gats would demand to hold the straws and a pair of scissors to hold under the table.

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just really hope we have a coach who is not the current coach of one of the 4 teams next time.

It doesn't seem feasible that could happen.

We did in 2009 and the Scots still moaned.