British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Scottrf wrote:Lawes was better than AWJ every week in the 6 Nations and isn't injured yet he's the strange call

AWJ is a leader and well respected by his peers as well as being a former winning Lions test captain.

Lions players aren't just based on how well they did in the six nations, they are picked on how well the coaches think they will gel into the squad.

You need leaders on and off the pitch.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You're not very good at wumming are you Gwlad?

Not even trying, just dealing with the FACTS

Note to self must try to be more like you

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You're not very good at wumming are you Gwlad?

Just a pity he's going to ruin the Lions tour for readers by derailing them with pettiness, poor analysis, aged inaccuracies and just plain bad manners.

Current has 9 of the last 12 or so comments, each mostly a derogatory remark to another poster, each article winding down with a Gwlad insult so most head somewhere else. Children really should play outside.

But geez, Just Gwlad he ain't one of ours.

C'mon lads, get over this nonsense.

Do we have a consensus on the 1st test 23?

Gwlad wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's really an irrelevance, we'd have won in Australia without Halfpenny, doubtful we'd have won without Sexton or Corbisiero.

If i have to trade facts with your utter boo larks then lets see….

No Halfpenny

Test 1: Oz 21 - 10 Lions (luckily Cuthbert and North scored a try a piece phew)
Test 2: Oz 16 - 0 Lions (Yep Sex and Corbs contributed loads that game)
Test 3: Oz 16 - 20 Lions (North and Roberts scorers and massive contribution by Sexton (thanks to Halfpenny) and Corbisiero)

Series loss

Luckily, with 52 of the 82 points scored in the tests, Halfpenny was on tour.

Wales contributed 72 of those 82 winning points

Thanks for playing.

What a silly post

So if Halfpenny was not there the lions would have refused to kick at goal - hence never scoring any points

Of course the kicker gets the most points

This is just getting sad now

Watched the 1993 tour to NZ last night on Youtube,

I don't think the game has changed too much!!!! Lineouts look a little wimpy, but hey

awesome watch if anyone fancies it.

In an attempt to move this thread forwards away from the bickering, I’ve taken a stab at a starting 15.  There are some positions/players I went back and forwards on, such as Itoje and Farrell, not about them starting, but where they are starting.  Whether Itoje plays 6 like he does for England or lock for club, same with Farrell at 10 & 12, in the end I went for a mix and played Itoje at lock and Farrell at 12.

I also really wanted to put Seymour in, and I honestly think in some circumstances he could replace North due to North’s injury history, but I figured it might come across as bias if I picked my team full of the Scottish players on tour (wee joke there……very wee) so went with North and Watson.

I’m not totally sure on Jonathan Joseph and to be honest he’s made my team purely for the shafting he gave us during the 6 nations, I’m basing his selection very much on one game….

Anyway, feel free to rip to shreds:

1. M. Vunipola
2. R. Best
3. T. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Stander
7. Warburton
8. B. Vunipola
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Farrell
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Hogg

Would probably go McGrath over Mako (no reason to disrupt an Irish front row and Mako is good bench impact), and POM over Stander (IMO the 6N showed that is better balance). Then the wings is the main other issue and I'm not 100% sure on my starters.

I don't see any benefit to having Mako start over Mcrgrath, an all Irish front row makes sense to me. 

I see Stander and Billy picked together a lot but it lacks balance when there are better 6's out there, would bring POM in.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't see any benefit to having Mako start over Mcrgrath, an all Irish front row makes sense to me. 

I see Stander and Billy picked together a lot but it lacks balance when there are better 6's out there, would bring POM in.

Going to have to copywrite my posts.

I'd perhaps go for Mako and George in the frontrow if you are going to pick a Saracens 2nd row.

Best's throwing is shaky at the best of times and asking him to try and get used to a new 2nd row partnership might make his throwing worse.

That's if you think combinations matter.....

Still don't know what Halfpenny is doing in the squad. You don't need additional kickers.

EWT Spoons wrote:In an attempt to move this thread forwards away from the bickering, I’ve taken a stab at a starting 15.  There are some positions/players I went back and forwards on, such as Itoje and Farrell, not about them starting, but where they are starting.  Whether Itoje plays 6 like he does for England or lock for club, same with Farrell at 10 & 12, in the end I went for a mix and played Itoje at lock and Farrell at 12.

I also really wanted to put Seymour in, and I honestly think in some circumstances he could replace North due to North’s injury history, but I figured it might come across as bias if I picked my team full of the Scottish players on tour (wee joke there……very wee) so went with North and Watson.

I’m not totally sure on Jonathan Joseph and to be honest he’s made my team purely for the shafting he gave us during the 6 nations, I’m basing his selection very much on one game….

Anyway, feel free to rip to shreds:

1. M. Vunipola McGrath
2. R. Best Owens
3. T. Furlong
4. Itoje Lawes
5. Kruis
6. Stander POM
7. Warburton
8. B. Vunipola
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Farrell
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Hogg

My ammendments above, with a bench consisting of :
16. George
17. M. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Itoje
20. Stander
21. Webb
22. Henshaw
23. Seymour

Think that's how I'm leaning at the moment. A formidable pack hopefully given absolutely free reign to pounce on every single ball and make the breakdown an absolute mess.

2 Footballers in the form of Sexton and Farrell at 10 and 12, hopefully making space for Williams, North and Hogg to come into the line as much as possible.

Subs to be used to up the physicality in the last quarter and again bring the outside backs in as much as possible.

EWT Spoons wrote:

Anyway, feel free to rip to shreds:

1. M. Vunipola
2. R. Best
3. T. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Stander
7. Warburton
8. B. Vunipola
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Farrell
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Hogg

My team would look very similar, though I would have McGrath starting and Mako on the bench. I would probably have George starting if Itoje and Kruis are present to boost that lineout familiarity. As with Scottrf I would probably favour POM over Stander for teh sake of balance, and like you would be tempted by Seymours predatory instincts and strength under the high ball.

so my line-up would be:

McGrath, George, Furlong, Itoje, Kruis, POM, Warbs, BillyV, Murray, Sexton, Watson, Farrell, JJ, Seymour, Hogg

With a bench of Owens, Mako, Sinckler, Lawes, Stander, Youngs, Henshaw, Williams (note these are selected for impact. should there be an injury not all would make my starting line-up. IE Best/Cole.AWJ would all start ahead of their bench counterparts).


However with Farrell having been designated as a 10, and teh structure of the tour such that he is unlikely to play at 12 outside Sexton much before the tests start, I doubt that woudl be Gats midfield. In fact I reckon Gats team would look much more like:

McGrath, Owens, Furlong, Itoje, AWJ, Stander (or Faletau), Warbs, BillyV, Murray (if fit to tour, else Webb), Sexton, North, Henshaw (or even Te'o), JD2, Williams, Hogg (but maybe 1/2p)

I'd expect Gatland to find room for Moriarty in the starting line up - he likes his tackling flankers.

Londontiger I agree. Gatland will probably find space for Jonathan Davies.

Can't play Gatlandball without him can you?

I think Joseph was picked because of the media uproar but won't start a game. He's just there to mollify the media.

Probably will be a high amount of Welsh players in the starting line up.

I'd go with the Irish front row, AWJ & Kruis in the engine room and POM, Warburton, Vuinipola in the backrow.

George, Mako, Itoje from the bench.

I'm not sure George can start in tests seen as he's unproven at Int level in this capacity. He's much better from the bench. It was only a few weeks ago he was completely outplayed by Hartley when starting, not a good indication for a Lions starting hooker.

Can hear Beshocked typing from here.

Sgt Pooly and yet it's George who captained his side to victory over Hartley's side. It's George's team who are in a HC final. It's George whose been picked for the Lions.

George is a proven winner.

Hartley cost his side an AP title. Let's not forget that one. He's been as much as a liability to Northampton as a talisman with all his bans.

So we're saying the saints side is as good as saracens. I don't feel it is personally. George gas to be on the bench as he's an unproven starter of course.

Nice wum though sarge!

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly and yet it's George who captained his side to victory over Hartley's side. It's George's team who are in a HC final. It's George whose been picked for the Lions.

George is a proven winner.

Hartley cost his side an AP title. Let's not forget that one. He's been as much as a liability to Northampton as a talisman with all his bans.

And it's Hartley who captained England to a record winning streak........

These are team accolades which cannot be attached to one individual, although captaincy is a slightly higher category.

How can George start for the Lions when he's getting comprehensively outplayed by a hooker who isn't touring. George at best is a bench option.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So we're saying the saints side is as good as saracens. I don't feel it is personally. George gas to be on the bench as he's an unproven starter of course.

The Saints side that faced Saracens recently on paper was better yes and still lost.

George is a proven starter in big games like AP finals and European finals, he's a proven international player.

Problem is posters like you and Sgt Pooly hype up insignificant games (Sgt Pooly with his obsession with Sean Robinson).


Anyway we are talking about the Lions, Hartley doesn't feature yet so stop bringing him up.

Sgt Pooly if we used your logic - Sean Robinson would be starting for England (even though he didn't outplay Itoje).

Look I know you think Hartley singlehandedly won the GS and grandslam.

I personally think Hartley was carried along, his performances in 2016 were solid but unspectacular, in 2017, dragged along by his team mates and showed below par leadership.

Needing Haskell to talk to the ref for him in the England v Italy game as a translator.

I would go McGrath over Mako (keep the Irish front row as a unit and use Mako for impact), POM over Stander (Ireland looked better balanced during the 6N). As for the wingers I'm sure any of them will do well..

So you'd accept george isn't a proven international starter. So Owens or best. I'd say best for me but I wouldn't be surprised to see it fall in the Welsh man's favour. I hope some of the performances in the warm ups are considered and he doesn't just go with a set idea of who is best.

George is not a proven International starting hooker....

The one chance he has to shine against his competition and he gets completely outplayed. I like George a lot, but at this level, he's an impact player currently.

Insignificant games like starting in the 6 nations, Autumn internationals and a tour of Australia?

This point you had about Haskell. ..you know his point was dismissed straight away by Poite and it was Hartley who then explained to Haskell don't you?

You and your edited posts BS

Stop wumming for once no 7 & 1/2. I know it's in your nature but please refrain from it.

George is good enough to start and has played in enough big games in hostile environments.

I've personally seen Best's lineout buckling more than George's.

Of course George is the least experienced but he's not inexperienced.

beshocked wrote:

George is good enough to start and has played in enough big games in hostile environments.

So why hasn't he started? It can only be because he's not as good a starter as Hartley....as proven last week. George is touring as a sub basically, which is no bad thing.

I rate Jamie George very highly, however I have used 6N form for the basis of all of my Lions arguments thusfar and will continue to do so.

Based on that criteria I feel Owens has played the best, he's shown up well in the loose and the Welsh set piece has been pretty solid. I'd start him.

At present if picking for a match tomorrow using gatland squad I'd have...

Mcgrath best Furlong
Lawes henderson
Pom Tipuric vunipola
Webb Sexton
Williams Farrell Joseph North
Hogg
Vunipola george Cole Kruis Stander youngs henshaw Daly.

Taking into account who is injured.

The point about Haskell is not a wum. Watch it that's what happened. The point of george not being a proven international starter is using your own past arguments against you. I personally wouldn't have trouble starting him you should if consistent.

Doh forgot itoje he'd start dropping henderson to bench.

Lawes Itoje might be a good idea if starting Best as both are flexible to get to his skew-whiff throws.

Hartley didn't explain anything to Haskell. Haskell was Hartley's interpreter.

Why is the captain not speaking to the ref?

Hammersmith Harrier sorry did Hartley supposedly outplay George in them?

You'd think Hartley singledhandledly got England to their 18 victories the way some posters bang on about him.


no 7 & 1/2 George cannot start for England if the coach doesn't pick him. With your logic you'd stop the development of players. No it doesn't mean throwing players into the deep end. Means playing players at the right time.

Sgt Pooly using your logic, Sean Robinson >> Itoje because he supposedly outplayed Itoje, which everyone knows is rubbish.

Let's not go over this again.  George has been consistently superior to Hartley.

You are just cherrypicking 1 insignificant game (from a Saracens perspective anyway), the big one was won the week after.

You have difficulty understanding that sides prioritise matches differently. It was effectively a cup final for Hartley, whilst George had bigger fish to fry.

The win was a bonus but wasn't the priority, being unscathed was important.

George's big tackling defensive effort vs Munster showcases his real strengths compared to Hartley.

George's workrate is much higher. Hartley is solid in the basics but around the park can't do what George can.

George topped the tackle count in the 1st half with 12, missed 1.

beshocked wrote:Hartley didn't explain anything to Haskell. Haskell was Hartley's interpreter.

Why is the captain not speaking to the ref?

He did. He told Haskell to stop speaking and asked what distance from the ball players would have to be to be offside.

beshocked wrote:You'd think Hartley singledhandledly got England to their 18 victories the way some posters bang on about him.

You'd think George singledhandledly got Saracens to their win vs Saints the way some posters bang on about him.

beshocked wrote:
Hammersmith Harrier sorry did Hartley supposedly outplay George in them?

Compared to Eddie Jones your opinion means sweet FA to me on the matter, I tend to think the national coach has a better understanding than a forum poster who's posts are filled with bias.

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:You'd think Hartley singledhandledly got England to their 18 victories the way some posters bang on about him.

You'd think George singledhandledly got Saracens to their win vs Saints the way some posters bang on about him.

No but he was the captain, being captain is what seems to matter to most fans, not actually how the captain plays (unless it's convenient to ignore the captain's performance).

Funny how you laud Hartley's leadership for England but conveniently ignore George captaining Saracens win over Saints.

Which is it that matters? Hartley's playing or his captaincy?

Gatland has picked George over Hartley because George has been consistently better than Hartley in terms of playing.

His all round ability is greater. His set piece is just as good but his real worth is his greater workrate.

Hammersmith Harrier indeed Jones is a very knowledgeable guy and he's done a good job but he's not always right. Jones is human afterall, he makes mistakes.

beshocked wrote:[
Gatland has picked George over Hartley because George has been consistently better than Hartley in terms of playing.

Have you asked him that?

\

beshocked wrote:[
Gatland has picked George over Hartley because George has been consistently better than Hartley in terms of playing.

He's picked him as a sub.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

beshocked wrote:[
Gatland has picked George over Hartley because George has been consistently better than Hartley in terms of playing.

Have you asked him that?

No but he's clearly picked him ahead of Hartley.

“We couldn’t leave Jamie out,” said Gatland, who coached the 2013 Lions to a series win in Australia.
“There’s a potential for him to keep improving. He’s done a good job coming off the bench and is playing well for Saracens,” added Gatland who, as was the case four years ago, is on secondment from his role as Wales coach.
“We felt there’s continued improvement in him as a player and that Rory and Ken had great Six Nations.
“There was always going to be a tough call and someone was always going to be disappointed.”

So he's been picked as a bench player then? Something he's more suited to than Hartley.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:So he's been picked as a bench player then? Something he's more suited to than Hartley.

You'd think George has never started a game of rugby by the way the Hartley fan club are writing off George....

Look anyway I am sick of talking about Hartley. He might be called up, but currently he isn't in line to make the Lions so can you just park the Hartley love in for now?

It's currently Best vs George vs Owens.

George has the inbuilt advantage of potentially being able to play with multiple club mates which on a Lions tour could be important.

Now I know some fans want to dispense with partnerships but I like combinations.

How many international games has he started?

I think everyone else is sick of you talking about Hartley constantly too but here are you doing it again. You're quite a childish poster with the way you need to validate your opinions by dismissing those of others with put downs like 'Hartley fan club' or 'Hartley love in', it's a pathetic way of debating. I and I doubt anyone else is a Hartley fan, we simply call it as we see it, something you lack the maturity to do.

You've changed your mind then over people needing international starts then. Good to know.

Actually BS, during the time that George was on the field Sarries were losing and were deservedly behind, George was taken off early as he was making no impact whatsoever on the field.

As the term goes, he was being "owned" by Hartley.

It was only when Hartley was taken off that Sarries rallied to get the winning score. Well, that and emptying the bench and bringing on a number of their normal first choice players. Pity Brits is getting on, he is still way ahead of George in terms of ability, in attack anyway.

If Mallander didn't just empty the bench at around 60 minutes, Saints would be a much better side. either their fitness levels are no good enough or he lacks the management skills to understand that sometimes in big games, you need to keep your best side on the field as longs as possible. IMO, it is the latter.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:How many international games has he started?

I think everyone else is sick of you talking about Hartley constantly too but here are you doing it again. You're quite a childish poster with the way you need to validate your opinions by dismissing those of others with put downs like 'Hartley fan club' or 'Hartley love in', it's a pathetic way of debating. I and I doubt anyone else is a Hartley fan, we simply call it as we see it, something you lack the maturity to do.

Hammersmith Harrier problem is when I try and be even handed - it's ignored.

I call it as I see it. I am not a fool. I understand why Jones picked Hartley. With no clear leader in the England squad he wanted someone. A spiky, no nonsense experienced player who can do solid basics.

My problem is when posters defend things that they shouldn't. Hartley didn't play well in the 6 nations yet you have certain posters claiming he did.

Claiming Hartley was a good leader in this year's 6 nations when he wasn't. I would argue he showed good leadership in 2016 but not 2017.

I am perhaps too harsh on Hartley but then again my stance on Hartley is the way it is because

a) he has one of the worst disciplinary records in rugby of current players. He is not a likable player.
b) I believe he is starting too many games and keeping out one of my favourite players
c) he is being picked for his leadership and not his playing ability
d) far too many people defend Hartley.
e)Hartley's achievements being exaggerated.
f)Don't think Hartley is playing well enough.
g) Don't believe England captain should be a bad role model.

Now a few of them blend together but that's why I feel that way. Now perhaps if you didn't have posters goading me I might soften my approach.


Well Past it I am sure you are one of the Hartley fan boys that will conveniently ignore the England-Wales game where Hartley was taken off early....


Saints-Sarries might have been the equivalent of a cup final for Saints but as I said before, Sarries had bigger fish to fry. Hartley put in a good performance but in the end led to nothing....


You have the ridiculous scenario where Hartley fans are hyping up the Saints-Sarries game as a watershed moment.

Nope. Most of us are just jumping on 1 of your previous important points of head to heads. Once Hartley played better than George you must have known it would be used against you. Then you acknowledge some posters past points which you ignored at the time about taking into account strength of teams etc. Hey I'm personally quite happy with your current argument, just please remember it when you're next talking about head to heads etc.

Im far from a Hartley fan, ive been a huge critic of his over the years. Credit where credit is due though, he was an inspired choice as captain and is deserving of his starting spot.

George needs to fight for the jersey and getting outplayed by your competition is not great.

no 7 & 1/2 it's funny how you and other posters put my posts under such scrutiny but when I do the same to you, you conveniently ignore my points.

You gang up on me and never admit you are ever wrong, yet consistently force me to admit I am wrong.

Shame that you and the likes of Sgt Pooly are never attacked like this.

I'd say you are getting close to cyberbullying.... trolling is the normal technique used.