British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Scottrf wrote:Lawes was better than AWJ every week in the 6 Nations and isn't injured yet he's the strange call

AWJ is a leader and well respected by his peers as well as being a former winning Lions test captain.

Lions players aren't just based on how well they did in the six nations, they are picked on how well the coaches think they will gel into the squad.

You need leaders on and off the pitch.

123456789 wrote:I'm not sure Faletau or Vunipola has to be a question of which one. I'm normally against shoehorning players into sides but I think we could play with Faletau at 6 and Vunipola at 8. The Second-rows are all mobile units around the pitch and as the mobility of the front five increases I feel the need for an out and out Lydiate style Blindside disappears. I do think that Gray and Watson would have helped in this department, Gray's tackle statistics are in the area of a back-row and Watson is an out and out 7 in a way none of the other options are, that said with Warburton as captain an out and out 7 was never likely to start and does not represent a brilliant bench option as they tend only to cover their own position.

Nonetheless, for me Faletau and Vunipola could easily and effectively play in conjunction, they both have good hands and feet as well as power, and with two big ball carriers in the pack it means the Lions could play with a playmaker at 12 rather than a battering ram.

I think it is a question of which one as you need a good line-out option in the back row. There isn't a need to select both in the same back row anyway as they play in the same position. It's the same deal for Ireland - Stander shouldn't be selected at 6 in my opinion. Obviously O'Mahony is the front runner there in terms of line-out prowess but I guess Tipuric does that job at 7 also. There aren't many other line-out jumpers at 6/7/8 in the squad apart from that though. Unless Itoje/Henderson/Lawes play at 6.

Gwlad wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think Billy has to start.

Stander definitely in the 23 but not sure as an impact player or as a starter.

Faletau wouldn't even make the 23 for me.


Gwlad Faletau playing well vs a poor Gloucester doesn't make him world class. Billy's performance vs Munster carries much more weight.

I agree, he was already world class.

But taking 3 tries against a Premiership side isn't something many 8s do.

And i also agree that yes Billy does carry more weight and that is why Faletau is more mobile

Taking 3 tries against a Premiership side doesn't prove much when facing the best side in the world.

On the other hand putting in a strong performance in a big game away from home in an environment where vast majority of the crowd want you to lose is of more relevance.

Zinzan Brooke knows what he's talking about.

Faletau seems perfect for the mid week games. Let him and Moriarty play together (though I would have obviously left out the overrated Moriaty).

Faletau should only be in the tests if Billy gets injured.



Faletau and B.Vunipola should definitely not be in the same backrow - too imbalanced.

Shouldn't just shoehorn in Welsh players because Gatland is coach. Sadly that seems the case so far.

beshocked wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think Billy has to start.

Stander definitely in the 23 but not sure as an impact player or as a starter.

Faletau wouldn't even make the 23 for me.


Gwlad Faletau playing well vs a poor Gloucester doesn't make him world class. Billy's performance vs Munster carries much more weight.

I agree, he was already world class.

But taking 3 tries against a Premiership side isn't something many 8s do.

And i also agree that yes Billy does carry more weight and that is why Faletau is more mobile

Taking 3 tries against a Premiership side doesn't prove much when facing the best side in the world.

On the other hand putting in a strong performance in a big game away from home in an environment where vast majority of the crowd want you to lose is of more relevance.

Zinzan Brooke knows what he's talking about.

Faletau seems perfect for the mid week games. Let him and Moriarty play together (though I would have obviously left out the overrated Moriaty).

Faletau should only be in the tests if Billy gets injured.



Faletau and B.Vunipola should definitely not be in the same backrow - too imbalanced.

Shouldn't just shoehorn in Welsh players because Gatland is coach. Sadly that seems the case so far.

Faletau's best shot is from the bench in my opinion. I don't see Gatland not picking Billy V to start the Tests. His power game from the base of the scrum could cause the ABs all sorts of problems, and I think the Lions pack needs to take the game to New Zealand, not simply try to match them for mobility and workrate. The only way Faletau works at 8 for my money is if Gatland puts Stander at 6 and uses Stander as his principal ball carrier. I still think Billy V is the best 8 though.

Speaking of number 8s scoring hat tricks, anyone remember Nick Easter's steam roller hat trick against Wales? Men and boyos that day.

Billy's ability to make ground from a standing start is unmatched in the game imo, and he's also got the hands to draw the defence and pop it off if they start targeting him too much

I'm in favour of picking Stander and Billy, and going with a rangier second row to help with the breakdown .. appreciate the lineout may be a problem with that though

BamBam wrote:I'm in favour of picking Stander and Billy, and going with a rangier second row to help with the breakdown .. appreciate the lineout may be a problem with that though

I'm not. Ireland looked much better when they played a 6 and an 8 rather than two 8s IMO. England really missed a proper 6 in Robshaw. Teams seem to be filling the 6 slot with locks and 8s and it makes everyone else's job harder.

I think that Billy Vunipola might struggle to make much of an impact against NZ.

Scottrf wrote:

BamBam wrote:I'm in favour of picking Stander and Billy, and going with a rangier second row to help with the breakdown .. appreciate the lineout may be a problem with that though

I'm not. Ireland looked much better when they played a 6 and an 8 rather than two 8s IMO. England really missed a proper 6 in Robshaw. Teams seem to be filling the 6 slot with locks and 8s and it makes everyone else's job harder.

Depends what you want your backrow to do.

It's just about getting the right balance.

Of course I am biased but I think the strongest 2nd row combination is Kruis-Itoje and if it's fit you need to build a backrow which works best with it.

I would have picked either Robshaw or Watson instead of Moriarty to tour but unfortunately the Lions have neither.

That means the 6/7 options are Tipuric,Warburton,SOB,Moriarty,Stander or Faletau or Mahony.

Got to say the more I think about the more I would have picked Robshaw instead of Moriarty.

I think the Lions could well regret that.

beshocked wrote:Got to say the more I think about the more I would have picked Robshaw instead of Moriarty.

I think the Lions could well regret that.

Agree. He's been very good in the games he's been back and is a genuine option for a starting spot IMO which Moriarty isn't.

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Got to say the more I think about the more I would have picked Robshaw instead of Moriarty.

I think the Lions could well regret that.

Agree. He's been very good in the games he's been back and is a genuine option for a starting spot IMO which Moriarty isn't.

Exactly. I think there are numerous backrowers superior to Moriarty.

beshocked wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Got to say the more I think about the more I would have picked Robshaw instead of Moriarty.

I think the Lions could well regret that.

Agree. He's been very good in the games he's been back and is a genuine option for a starting spot IMO which Moriarty isn't.

Exactly. I think there are numerous backrowers superior to Moriarty.

It's all about balance end of the day. Moriarty has a very aggressive defence (which Robshaw doesn't, Haskell does) and partnered with Warbs and Vuinipola could work well. He also had a good 6N, especially against England. I imagine Gats has his combinations worked out and Moriarty fits into these better than the English pair.

I think you're right pooly. Suspect we'd all be able to get gatland s team just about right now.

You are right Sgt Pooly.

To be honest I think Gatland sees Moriarty as Lydiate MkII.

Picked the overrated Lydiate in 2013 and he did what Gatland wanted. Moriarty will likely fit the same role.

The issue is that the best side in the world aren't a mediocre Australian side, putting in some tackles I don't think will be enough.

Moriarty IMO is a limited player but he does something that Gatland likes.

I genuinely don't think the Lions will be able to beat NZ if they start Moriarty and I certainly wouldn't have him on the bench either.

If Gatland starts Moriarty I think the Lions are doomed - it would show out of touch he is.

Moriarty did well vs a backrow of Itoje,Clifford and Hughes - let's not kid ourselves. That's not even close to a world class backrow. Only Itoje of those 3 has been picked for the Lions and that's as a 2nd row.

Moriarty, Vunipola and Warburton for me.

Moriarity in the line out will be very important both ours and theirs

I don't think Moriarty is as limited as Lydiate but it does seem he's been picked for a specific role.

geoff999rugby wrote:Moriarty, Vunipola and Warburton for me.

Moriarity in the line out will be very important both ours and theirs

Being serious now, would you start Moriaty in the Ireland side if he was Irish?

Sgt Pooly perhaps not as limited as Lydiate but still limited.

No Pom, Stander or Heaslip, sob

My Lions back row combos would be as follows:

Test:

6.Stander 7.Warburton 8.Vunipola

19.SOB

Midweek:

6.POM 7.Tipuric 8.Faletau

19.Moriarty

To critique my own selection I'd say the Test back row lacks breakdown capabilities with only Warburton fulfilling that role (and he's no George Smith), but I'd counter that with Itoje in the second row and Best at hooker, both handy breakdown players. On the other hand I have two excellent ball carriers with which to take the game to New Zealand. I would also see one of Stander or Billy V making way in the second half, and switching Warburton to 6 to bring on SOB at 7.

The midweek side is probably the better balanced of the two, although it lacks that top class ball carrying capability. I'd have Henderson and Lawes at lock for the midweek side, with George at hooker.

So why wouldn't you pick POM over Moriarty for Lions?

POM SOB Stander has almost the same balance as POM Warburton Vunipola.

Pom lineout work is outstanding both on our ball and theirs.

Much better than Stander or Moriarty

With Warburton as well we can cause real trouble at the breakdown.
Vunipola gives us the ball carrying.
I'd put Falateau on the bench he seems to be back to his best

geoff999rugby wrote:Moriarty, Vunipola and Warburton for me.

Moriarity in the line out will be very important both ours and theirs

Did you mean to say POM here then, Geoff?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think that Billy Vunipola might struggle to make much of an impact against NZ.

Oh I think he will make an impact, but suspect his stats won't look great because NZ will look to stop him early and getting any momentum. Most of his carries will be in single digits, but as long as he can tie defenders up (and tire them out) and get the ball out he'll do OK.

I don't think his stats alone in Oz last summer were much to write home about, but he still played a very important role.

geoff999rugby wrote:Moriarty, Vunipola and Warburton for me.

Moriarity in the line out will be very important both ours and theirs

Surely you'd start POM if you want a lineout guy at 6

DOH........I did indeed mean Pom not moriarity.

Interesting article about what Nowell offers around the park (comes looking for work which IMO North doesn't do enough). Is premium but can sign up for a free article.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/05/02/attacking-work-rate-anticipation-can-help-jack-nowell-thrive/

funnyExiledScot wrote:My Lions back row combos would be as follows:

Test:

6.Stander 7.Warburton 8.Vunipola

19.SOB

Midweek:

6.POM 7.Tipuric 8.Faletau

19.Moriarty

To critique my own selection I'd say the Test back row lacks breakdown capabilities with only Warburton fulfilling that role (and he's no George Smith), but I'd counter that with Itoje in the second row and Best at hooker, both handy breakdown players. On the other hand I have two excellent ball carriers with which to take the game to New Zealand. I would also see one of Stander or Billy V making way in the second half, and switching Warburton to 6 to bring on SOB at 7.

The midweek side is probably the better balanced of the two, although it lacks that top class ball carrying capability. I'd have Henderson and Lawes at lock for the midweek side, with George at hooker.

If referees start pinging Itoje for going beyond the ball / not supporting his body weight, we're sunk.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If referees start pinging Itoje for going beyond the ball / not supporting his body weight, we're sunk.

Or for high tackles

funnyExiledScot wrote:My Lions back row combos would be as follows:

Test:

6.Stander 7.Warburton 8.Vunipola

19.SOB

Midweek:

6.POM 7.Tipuric 8.Faletau

19.Moriarty

To critique my own selection I'd say the Test back row lacks breakdown capabilities with only Warburton fulfilling that role (and he's no George Smith), but I'd counter that with Itoje in the second row and Best at hooker, both handy breakdown players. On the other hand I have two excellent ball carriers with which to take the game to New Zealand. I would also see one of Stander or Billy V making way in the second half, and switching Warburton to 6 to bring on SOB at 7.

The midweek side is probably the better balanced of the two, although it lacks that top class ball carrying capability. I'd have Henderson and Lawes at lock for the midweek side, with George at hooker.

I think both back rows look a little bit unbalanced, with your mitigations in the rest of the pack counting for something at least.

There could even be an argument for swapping Faletau and Stander for this tour, with Faletau being an option at 6 to compete with O'Mahony, and Vunipola and Stander competing for 8. It gives you much more like-for-like, although not perfect fits obviously.

Faletau and O'Mahony would both be your third jumper options and will cover more ground in defence, while Vunipola and Stander are your stronger carriers and you will be looking to get them the ball more often.

For the opening two games, I'd trial O'Mahony, Warburton and Vunipola as my first choice back row with O'Brien (as my 7th choice back row) on the bench, with Faletau, Tipuric and Stander as my second coice back row playing the second game with Moriarty on the bench.

By test time - obviously depending on form and fitness - I would assume to be bumping Stander or Faletau up to replace O'Brien in the matchday squad, who would drop into my midweek team.

Just looking for some stats and this rather odd one popped up on the RBS 6N site.  Most lineout takes in this years 6N: Tipuric!  

Most lineout takes:
Justin Tipuric (Wales) - 24 takes, 0 steals
Devin Toner (Ireland) - 20, 2
Courtney Lawes (England) - 18, 0
Maro Itoje (England) - 16, 2
Alun Wyn Jones (Wales) - 13, 2
Sam Warburton (Wales) - 13, 1
Richie Gray (Scotland) - 13, 1

Griff wrote:Just looking for some stats and this rather odd one popped up on the RBS 6N site.  Most lineout takes in this years 6N: Tipuric!  

Most lineout takes:
Justin Tipuric (Wales) - 24 takes, 0 steals
Devin Toner (Ireland) - 20, 2
Courtney Lawes (England) - 18, 0
Maro Itoje (England) - 16, 2
Alun Wyn Jones (Wales) - 13, 2
Sam Warburton (Wales) - 13, 1
Richie Gray (Scotland) - 13, 1

Griff if I remember correctly Falatau was used extensively as a lineout option for us in 15/16, what Wales have done is swap both Justin and Sam for Taulupe this season. Just look at how it worked, as I put in another topic, prior to the French game we were the top lineout Nation in the 6N. The only problem was we lost the first lineout in that French game.

We lost a key lineout late on against England with Scott Baldwin throwing in, as I recall it.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:We lost a key lineout late on against England with Scott Baldwin throwing in, as I recall it.

Yes that is right LP, and apart from a couple of recent matches he has seriously dropped down the ladder IMO of Welsh hookers, and if Parry was fit I wouldn't even take him to the South Seas next month.

I'm sure Robin McBryde knows best!

Scottrf wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If referees start pinging Itoje for going beyond the ball / not supporting his body weight, we're sunk.

Or for high tackles

I would bet Itoje is smart to enough to adjust his play if he starts getting pinged

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm sure Robin McBryde knows best!

As Parry is out injured, and if they take 3 Hookers I think Scott could go with Dacey and your boy, or even Elias down West.

Elliot Dee's in a moon boot. He's had no luck with injuries.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Elliot Dee's in a moon boot. He's had no luck with injuries.

If they are taking the likes of Gethin, Samson, Francis, Evans and Smith, it would be good to give Dacey first crack, he surely deserves it now.

I always thought he was overrated, but he's in really good form now. Still needs a haircut mind.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I always thought he was overrated, but he's in really good form now. Still needs a haircut mind.

Perhaps he's a bit like Samson (not Lee, the biblical one) his form only comes when his hair is long. He definitely outplayed Baldwin on Judgement Day.

robbo277 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:My Lions back row combos would be as follows:

Test:

6.Stander 7.Warburton 8.Vunipola

19.SOB

Midweek:

6.POM 7.Tipuric 8.Faletau

19.Moriarty

To critique my own selection I'd say the Test back row lacks breakdown capabilities with only Warburton fulfilling that role (and he's no George Smith), but I'd counter that with Itoje in the second row and Best at hooker, both handy breakdown players. On the other hand I have two excellent ball carriers with which to take the game to New Zealand. I would also see one of Stander or Billy V making way in the second half, and switching Warburton to 6 to bring on SOB at 7.

The midweek side is probably the better balanced of the two, although it lacks that top class ball carrying capability. I'd have Henderson and Lawes at lock for the midweek side, with George at hooker.

I think both back rows look a little bit unbalanced, with your mitigations in the rest of the pack counting for something at least.

There could even be an argument for swapping Faletau and Stander for this tour, with Faletau being an option at 6 to compete with O'Mahony, and Vunipola and Stander competing for 8. It gives you much more like-for-like, although not perfect fits obviously.

Faletau and O'Mahony would both be your third jumper options and will cover more ground in defence, while Vunipola and Stander are your stronger carriers and you will be looking to get them the ball more often.

For the opening two games, I'd trial O'Mahony, Warburton and Vunipola as my first choice back row with O'Brien (as my 7th choice back row) on the bench, with Faletau, Tipuric and Stander as my second coice back row playing the second game with Moriarty on the bench.

By test time - obviously depending on form and fitness - I would assume to be bumping Stander or Faletau up to replace O'Brien in the matchday squad, who would drop into my midweek team.

 Zinny reckons Faletau lacks the required mongrel to play the ABs.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lions-tour-2017/news/article.cfm?c_id=697&objectid=11848945

Uh oh. I predict a forum shutdown within hours.

Faletau reckons Zinny is an old has been and wouldn't understand a player with his wide range of skills, he's more in the Billy V camp. Blunt instrument.

I'm not convinced that faletau is that thick to say such a thing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not convinced that faletau is that thick to say such a thing.

Zinzan who?

TF was rated as one of the best in the world before his move to Bath and subsequent injury, up there with Read and Vermeulen. There were a few English saying he was better than Vunipola too. This season Faletau couldn't break back into the Wales team. I think he can reach those 'world class' heights again, perhaps at the tail-end of the NZ tour but it was a risk taking him IMO.

Not a risk at all mikey. Form is temporary and all that. Faletau is probably the best home nations No 8 since Dallaglio. Faletau is superb at the back of the scrum, excellent in the line out, receiving the high ball and returning, finishing tries, great passer of the ball. He's still up there even after a torrid season and being 2nd fiddle to Moriarty which is another Howler by howler. Billy V is known for 1 thing alone which is ironic because we know just how much the English dismiss route 1 rugby. Ironic isn't it.

Gwlad wrote:Faletau reckons Zinny is an old has been and wouldn't understand a player with his wide range of skills, he's more in the Billy V camp. Blunt instrument.

Zinny is far too humble and a gentleman to bring 'Wide range of skills" into the discussion.

Yes instead he tries to make out that Faletau - who already has more caps than him - is soft. Such a gent. I'd like to see just how soft Brooke is when tackled by Faletau….this is just a lame Kiwi attempt to get under his skin and it will fail because i very much doubt TF cares a damn what he thinks.

I hope flatulant cares what kiwis think about him, his coach is one as are a number of his teammates.

Gwlad wrote:Yes instead he tries to make out that Faletau - who already has more caps than him - is soft. Such a gent. I'd like to see just how soft Brooke is when tackled by Faletau….this is just a lame Kiwi attempt to get under his skin and it will fail because i very much doubt TF cares a damn what he thinks.

Durr, the more caps thing isn't about ability it's about the era they played in, and I'd probably not bother comparing the two, Faletau's got little on Zinny, poles apart. Though I didn't read the article, not a great thing to say if he did.

Vunipola is the form 8 so don't even know why Faletau is even being mentioned.

It will make no difference regardless. Lions are coached by Gatland (last man standing after the proper coaches said no). Such a shame and such a waste. Good luck to the past-it players. RIP Lions. Good luck NZ and hope the English lads come home safely.