Political round up.............

by GSC Thu 20 Apr 2017, 11:14 am

First topic message reminder :

CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:The Scots voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK voted to leave the EU. Every Scottish vote counted the same as every other UK citizen. I don't see the issue.

The Scots (a good number if you look at post-ref stats from neutral sources) decided to vote no on varying issues. One of the main ones was because they feared losing their place in Europe. That won loads of votes for Better Together and has proved to be fruitless for the voters as they are now out of Europe.

The issue is that many Scots sees Scotland as its own country - sure not independent - but very close to it as they have their own government. However, when they vote by 62% to remain in Europe and end up being taken out of Europe it becomes a big issue to many. Yes we know the UK voted to exit but there are perhaps a million plus Scots who fail to recognize or accept being part of the UK or see themselves Scottish first and foremost and feel how they vote should hold more water than it does in the current union.

Sorry Craig, but that's democracy. Why should somebody in Edinburghs vote count more than someone's in London? Almost as ridiculous as Mhairi Black complaining that a region with more inhabitants had more MPs representing it than another region with less MPs.

But such is the politics of the SNP, always phrasing as Scotland vs the rest of the UK (or more accurately England) when Scotland voted to be part of the UK.

by LionsV2 Fri 03 Nov 2017, 11:21 am

They're voting for what is in THEIR interests, just so happens to not coincide with your want for Scottish independence, it's almost as if you think Scotland are special in the grand scheme of things, it's no different to how it works in the rest of the UK.

by CaledonianCraig Fri 03 Nov 2017, 11:37 am

Well Scotland is special as it is 40% up for independence with its own parliament and that is a heck of a lot of voters harbouring anti-Westminster sentiment.

by Derbymanc Fri 03 Nov 2017, 11:38 am

No Craig you didn't, you lambasted a Tory MP (rightly in my opinion) for not attending votes etc but then brushed off your own favourite party as 'it doesn't matter'. Massive double standards in my book and if your really looking at it like that, as the lone Con MP in Scotland then really it doesn't matter if he turns up for anything because as you say he can't change anything on his own AND being the sole Scottish Tory why should he bother with Westminister or Scotland?

It's good to see you back though even if you do think the SNP are good :-)

by GSC Fri 03 Nov 2017, 11:42 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well Scotland is special

Yeah I think we've all gathered this is the basis of your argument by now Wink

by Derbymanc Fri 03 Nov 2017, 11:49 am

Still not a majority though, although i do think if we have another vote for Scottish independance it should include the whole of the UK so when it falls apart they can't scream it was unfair ;-)

by LionsV2 Fri 03 Nov 2017, 11:53 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well Scotland is special as it is 40% up for independence with its own parliament and that is a heck of a lot of voters harbouring anti-Westminster sentiment.

I doubt that's any different to the rest of the UK, I'm not particularly pro Westminster myself but that doesn't mean my vote means more than someone elses.

It was 37% of the registered population who voted YES and that number has dropped dramatically in the past couple of years but again who cares about the majority and what they want.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 03 Nov 2017, 12:05 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well Scotland is special as it is 40% up for independence with its own parliament and that is a heck of a lot of voters harbouring anti-Westminster sentiment.

You can want independence and not harbor any anti-Westminster sentiment jut like you can vote Brexit and be pro-Immigration......

People vote for things for different reasons.....Not everything is driven by emotion.

WST Poll sept 2017..............Do you want an independent Scotland ??

Yes 39
No 50..............

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri 03 Nov 2017, 1:32 pm

LionsV2 wrote:It was 37% of the registered population who voted YES.

Slightly more than the % that voted Leave.

by LionsV2 Fri 03 Nov 2017, 1:56 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:It was 37% of the registered population who voted YES.

Slightly more than the % that voted Leave.

Aside from being an arse, your point is what exactly?

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 03 Nov 2017, 3:01 pm

LionsV2 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:It was 37% of the registered population who voted YES.

Slightly more than the % that voted Leave.

Aside from being an arse, your point is what exactly?

Political round up............. - Page 18 1347041234

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri 03 Nov 2017, 3:09 pm

LionsV2 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:It was 37% of the registered population who voted YES.

Slightly more than the % that voted Leave.

Aside from being an arse, your point is what exactly?

Hehe

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri 03 Nov 2017, 3:12 pm

Actually the point was this -
You wrote "It was 37% of the registered population who voted YES ... but again who cares about the majority and what they want"

Logically, that point also applies to the majority of registered voters who did not vote Leave.
It would have be a much better argument to have stuck to the actual result, based on the people who did vote.

Which majority do you care for?

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 03 Nov 2017, 10:00 pm

Charlie Elphicke mp loses whip and the police are involved..

Fallon has another Woman claiming he groped her....

Sleepless nights awaiting mps racking their brains trying to recall behaviour from weeks past me thinks..

by GSC Fri 03 Nov 2017, 10:03 pm

Lib Dems will have a majority at this rate

by Derbymanc Sat 04 Nov 2017, 9:15 am

I thought it was 51 percent of the registered voters voted leave (well of those that voted) the same for the independance vote

by lostinwales Sat 04 Nov 2017, 3:52 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Charlie Elphicke mp loses whip and the police are involved..

Fallon has another Woman claiming he groped her....

Sleepless nights awaiting mps racking their brains trying to recall behaviour from weeks past me thinks..

Years past.

Given that one of the Fallon accusers is Leadsom you have to wonder about either his vision or his judgement

by Ent Sat 04 Nov 2017, 6:02 pm

Only gossip but suggestions are leadsom was at odds with the rest of the cabinet over the exit deal and fallon thought the only way to get a unified stance was for her to be sacked - she's knifed him in an act o. Self preservation.

Or so the rumours say, trying to sex it up possibly.

by Duty281 Sat 04 Nov 2017, 7:17 pm

Some fellow from the SNP has now resigned.

Already greater and more damaging than the expenses scandal.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 04 Nov 2017, 7:39 pm

With respect Duty at least 20 mps got deselected and at least 4 politicians went to jail over expenses..

by Duty281 Sat 04 Nov 2017, 7:47 pm

Oh alright then, it'll end up greater and more damaging than the expenses scandal. thumbsup

by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 04 Nov 2017, 8:08 pm

Easier to prove expenses my friend.

You can't deny an expense sheet with your name on it signed off by you.

Who knows we will see.

by GSC Sat 04 Nov 2017, 8:23 pm

Don't need to prove the accusations for them to be career ending for a lot of mps I suspect

by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 04 Nov 2017, 8:54 pm

GSC wrote:Don't need to prove the accusations for them to be career ending for a lot of mps I suspect

Probably not till 2022.......

I'll give you guys a heads up.......I told those of a gaming disposition to back Thornberry for Labour leader when she was an outsider a few months ago and now she is favorite...

Now the Tories have just had an internal poll which asked the faithful who they wanted to be next leader.....Had all the so called popular names on it like Johnson, Hammond, Davis, Patel, Leadsom etc......and "none of the above" won comfortably.......

Now with all this sleaze not about to go away......Perhaps who better to succeed than the youngish, distinguished Army Captain.. Tobias Ellwood..

I imagine there won't be an election till 2019 and perhaps a talented man of distinction will be the tonic required. His career is certainly on the rise and he has a good back story.

100/1............Enjoy the rest of the weekend. Whisky

by CaledonianCraig Sat 04 Nov 2017, 9:09 pm

Derbymanc wrote:No Craig you didn't, you lambasted a Tory MP (rightly in my opinion) for not attending votes etc but then brushed off your own favourite party as 'it doesn't matter'. Massive double standards in my book and if your really looking at it like that, as the lone Con MP in Scotland then really it doesn't matter if he turns up for anything because as you say he can't change anything on his own AND being the sole Scottish Tory why should he bother with Westminister or Scotland?

It's good to see you back though even if you do think the SNP are good :-)

You have a lot wrong there. He is not the SOUL Scottish Tory and he promised pre-election he would not miss votes again for his 'other' activities which he has already reneged on. And do you not understand how Westminster works? Only voices that make up the majority are heard. The SNP make up aless than 5% of the house and would vote against basic premise of Brexit but that meant Jack **** meaning their vote is irrelevant. Similar, in other votes which they deem a bill will not be of any good to Scotland. Just remember that the SNP are a party that believes that Scotland should be an independent country whereas the rest of Westminster (barring Scottish Greens) do not. Back to the Scottish Tory - and his vote is irrelevant as well as he is programmed to vote for whatever the Westminster Tories want regardless of the effect it will have on Scotland. The mere fact is he openly promised he would not miss a vote again and has already broken that promise. And SNP voters realize their Westminster MPs representing the SNP will miss votes or abstain but they accept it and understand why hence why the SNP is so much better represented than it was say 15 years ago.

by Duty281 Sat 04 Nov 2017, 9:10 pm

Unsure about Emily Thornberry. If Labour want a continuation candidate after Corbyn, then yes, she will be one of the front-runners.

If, however, Corbyn fails to dislodge the Tories, and Labour decide they want a different direction, Dan Jarvis looks more likely.

I tipped Rees-Mogg as a potential Tory leader in 14/15; I think he's most likely to succeed Theresa May.

Outsiders? David Miliband and Yvette Cooper for Labour; Kemi Badenoch and James Cleverly for the Tories.

by Duty281 Sat 04 Nov 2017, 9:12 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote: Just remember that the SNP are a party that believes that Scotland should be an independent country

False. Amongst other things, they believe the supreme law-making authority in Scotland should be the European Commission (an even more pathetic entity than the current Westminster establishment), and they believe that Scotland's trade policy should be controlled by the EU.

That is not independence.

by CaledonianCraig Sat 04 Nov 2017, 9:22 pm

Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote: Just remember that the SNP are a party that believes that Scotland should be an independent country

False. Amongst other things, they believe the supreme law-making authority in Scotland should be the European Commission (an even more pathetic entity than the current Westminster establishment), and they believe that Scotland's trade policy should be controlled by the EU.

That is not independence.

Independence is the ability to make your own decisions - not have them made for you as was the case with Brexit. Pretty certain I'd call every country in the EU an independent country wouldn't you? Ask anyone throughout the world and they'd all say Germany, France, Spain etc etc etc are independent countries.

by Duty281 Sat 04 Nov 2017, 9:27 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote: Just remember that the SNP are a party that believes that Scotland should be an independent country

False. Amongst other things, they believe the supreme law-making authority in Scotland should be the European Commission (an even more pathetic entity than the current Westminster establishment), and they believe that Scotland's trade policy should be controlled by the EU.

That is not independence.

Independence is the ability to make your own decisions

Which is exactly what EU member states don't have on many issues.

by CaledonianCraig Sat 04 Nov 2017, 9:34 pm

Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote: Just remember that the SNP are a party that believes that Scotland should be an independent country

False. Amongst other things, they believe the supreme law-making authority in Scotland should be the European Commission (an even more pathetic entity than the current Westminster establishment), and they believe that Scotland's trade policy should be controlled by the EU.

That is not independence.

Independence is the ability to make your own decisions

Which is exactly what EU member states don't have on many issues.

Certainly have far more though than Scotland does in the union just like countries such as Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia etc etc etc have now that they aren't part of the former USSR.

by LionsV2 Sat 04 Nov 2017, 11:42 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
It would have be a much better argument to have stuck to the actual result, based on the people who did vote.

Which majority do you care for?

Nice abuse of the English language.

by Ent Sun 05 Nov 2017, 12:15 am

If you are going to be literal very few countries are "independent" given modern day political co operation, trade deals, the UN, G7 and other international bodies.

In reality most independent nations are free to leave these institutions and go about their own business as they are sovereign nations - Scotland is not.

Surprised people are still pedalling this crap about the EU now we have got the decision to leave, guess some simpletons were bound to believe the crap leave came out with.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:02 am

"Extreme Pornography" allegations hitting Deputy Prime Minister Green.

Find it hard to believe anyone would be having a tug of rope on the work computer....

Gone if true..

by Duty281 Sun 05 Nov 2017, 12:04 pm

Ent wrote:Surprised people are still pedalling this crap about the EU now we have got the decision to leave, guess some simpletons were bound to believe the crap leave came out with.

I've supported leaving the EU long before the referendum came about, let alone before the dismal official Leave campaign came to fruition.

Telling, though, that once again you resort to insults when someone puts across a point that you can't counter rationally.

by LionsV2 Sun 05 Nov 2017, 12:16 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Ent wrote:Surprised people are still pedalling this crap about the EU now we have got the decision to leave, guess some simpletons were bound to believe the crap leave came out with.

I've supported leaving the EU long before the referendum came about, let alone before the dismal official Leave campaign came to fruition.

Telling, though, that once again you resort to insults when someone puts across a point that you can't counter rationally.

I like you was an advocate for leaving the EU long before the referendum and the vote leave campaign had no bearing whatsoever on my decision, I wouldn't have thought many made their decision based on it either.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 05 Nov 2017, 1:07 pm

I really don't see the full black and white that a lot tend to on the EU. I could take it or leave it. Being a member can be beneficial for trade deals, ease of movement across the continent and less red tape in many matters. Conversely, people will feel the EU has stifled the UK (I don't buy into that) and that it makes borders more secure by stopping nefarious types getting into the UK so easily. Also some will feel that better trade deals can be had outwith the EU. I suppose it all depends on individuals and how they see themselves in the grand scheme of things.

by Duty281 Sun 05 Nov 2017, 1:11 pm

LionsV2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Ent wrote:Surprised people are still pedalling this crap about the EU now we have got the decision to leave, guess some simpletons were bound to believe the crap leave came out with.

I've supported leaving the EU long before the referendum came about, let alone before the dismal official Leave campaign came to fruition.

Telling, though, that once again you resort to insults when someone puts across a point that you can't counter rationally.

I like you was an advocate for leaving the EU long before the referendum and the vote leave campaign had no bearing whatsoever on my decision, I wouldn't have thought many made their decision based on it either.

Agreed. The vast majority would have made their minds up well in advance of June 23rd 2016.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 05 Nov 2017, 2:15 pm

Depends on the definition of Vast and the narrative you want to sell.

Yougov Feb 2015

Stay 45
Leave 35..

Leave finished on 52...But if you say it is the vast majority who am I to argue.

by LionsV2 Sun 05 Nov 2017, 2:18 pm

YouGov got it wrong right up until the day of the referendum itself so who cares.

by Duty281 Sun 05 Nov 2017, 2:55 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Depends on the definition of Vast and the narrative you want to sell.

Yougov Feb 2015

Stay 45
Leave 35..

Remain finished on 52...But if you say it is the vast majority who am I to argue.

Well, if you like polls, Lord Ashcroft's post-referendum poll shows that just under 60% knew how they were going to vote by the start of 2016, with around 75% knowing how they would vote with a month left in the campaign.

by **navyblueshorts** Sun 05 Nov 2017, 7:38 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Depends on the definition of Vast and the narrative you want to sell.

Yougov Feb 2015

Stay 45
Leave 35..

Remain finished on 52...But if you say it is the vast majority who am I to argue.

Well, if you like polls, Lord Ashcroft's post-referendum poll shows that just under 60% knew how they were going to vote by the start of 2016, with around 75% knowing how they would vote with a month left in the campaign.

Tangential I know, but are you talking about that s**thead, tax avoiding, non-dom piece of lowlife scum? He's always been a w*nker and he always will be.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 05 Nov 2017, 9:03 pm

LionsV2 wrote:YouGov got it wrong right up until the day of the referendum itself so who cares.

No but Yougov canvasses more people than you.

Just adding substance to the debate.. thumbsup

by LionsV2 Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:13 pm

Canvas more and usually get it wrong.

by **JuliusHMarx** Sun 05 Nov 2017, 10:27 pm

LionsV2 wrote:YouGov got it wrong right up until the day of the referendum itself so who cares.

That simply isn't true. For example, three days before the vote YouGov had a poll with Leave 2 points ahead. https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/20/eu-referendum-leave-lead-two/

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 06 Nov 2017, 3:19 pm

Proportion of income paid to the taxman...

Richest 5th.............. 34.80%
2nd Richest 5th.........34.50%
3rd Richest 5th..........33.30%
2nd Poorest 5th.........30.20%
Poorest 5th...............37.80%

Not good..

by Scottrf Mon 06 Nov 2017, 3:29 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Proportion of income paid to the taxman...

Richest 5th.............. 34.80%
2nd Richest 5th.........34.50%
3rd Richest 5th..........33.30%
2nd Poorest 5th.........30.20%
Poorest 5th...............37.80%

Not good..

What about amount paid/service received ratio?

by Duty281 Thu 09 Nov 2017, 4:51 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/927685399744454656

That tweet from Gary Lineker hasn’t aged well...

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/09/revealed-scheme-gary-lineker-tax-barbados-home

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 09 Nov 2017, 9:17 pm

Duty281 wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/927685399744454656

That tweet from Gary Lineker hasn’t aged well...

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/09/revealed-scheme-gary-lineker-tax-barbados-home

Whoops!

by SecretFly Fri 10 Nov 2017, 10:05 am

Scottrf wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Proportion of income paid to the taxman...

Richest 5th.............. 34.80%
2nd Richest 5th.........34.50%
3rd Richest 5th..........33.30%
2nd Poorest 5th.........30.20%
Poorest 5th...............37.80%

Not good..

What about amount paid/service received ratio?

The poorest would have no income at all...right? That would be the definition in any country. 37.8% of nothing is truly extortionate, ain't it.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 10 Nov 2017, 1:04 pm

Yougov...

Lab 43
Con 40

Should Theresa May stand down ?

Yes 32 (-6)
No 42 (+3)..............?????

Lib dems on 6% !!!

19% Tory voters think the Tory Govt is awful but can't vote Labour while Corbyn is leader...

by CaledonianCraig Tue 14 Nov 2017, 7:29 pm

Today exemplifies the point I was making the other day. An amendment to the Brexit Bill put forward by the SNP and Plaid Cymru has been categorically knocked back in a vote in Westminster. The Bill would have meant that the final EU exit deal would have to be agreed by all four parliaments before being passed. So much for a union of equal voices eh?

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