Political round up.............

by GSC Thu 20 Apr 2017, 11:14 am

First topic message reminder :

CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:The Scots voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK voted to leave the EU. Every Scottish vote counted the same as every other UK citizen. I don't see the issue.

The Scots (a good number if you look at post-ref stats from neutral sources) decided to vote no on varying issues. One of the main ones was because they feared losing their place in Europe. That won loads of votes for Better Together and has proved to be fruitless for the voters as they are now out of Europe.

The issue is that many Scots sees Scotland as its own country - sure not independent - but very close to it as they have their own government. However, when they vote by 62% to remain in Europe and end up being taken out of Europe it becomes a big issue to many. Yes we know the UK voted to exit but there are perhaps a million plus Scots who fail to recognize or accept being part of the UK or see themselves Scottish first and foremost and feel how they vote should hold more water than it does in the current union.

Sorry Craig, but that's democracy. Why should somebody in Edinburghs vote count more than someone's in London? Almost as ridiculous as Mhairi Black complaining that a region with more inhabitants had more MPs representing it than another region with less MPs.

But such is the politics of the SNP, always phrasing as Scotland vs the rest of the UK (or more accurately England) when Scotland voted to be part of the UK.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 4:06 pm

LionsV2 wrote:The way it doesn't work is being the one constantly asked to provide evidence for an opinion because I'm a conservative, being the only one told how to debate primarily because I hold an opposing view. When a left wing voter says similar it's dismissed by you as being cheeky or not challenged at all.

Feel free to challenge me for evidence for every accusation I make, chum. I'll do the same to you, knowing that you're unable to.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 4:17 pm

LionsV2 wrote:The way it doesn't work is being the one constantly asked to provide evidence for an opinion because I'm a conservative, being the only one told how to debate primarily because I hold an opposing view. When a left wing voter says similar it's dismissed by you as being cheeky or not challenged at all.

You almost never provide any actual evidence. Feel free to go elsewhere; I'd rather you didn't as who wants to have an echo chamber for a discussion forum?
Not I.
I'd apply the same argument to one of your 'lefties' for making a statement designed to provoke, neglect to provide any evidence in support whatsoever and then whine when someone (you?) calls them out.

Enough already. Let's just all try to a) not to make remarks (too) personal and b) not take comments (too) personally.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 4:18 pm

GSC wrote:Hammer isn't entirely wrong there.

There may be an element of truth in what he says, but he sure as Hell doesn't help his case very much...

by LionsV2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 4:19 pm

So you don't think a comment about the alt-right isn't intended to provoke?

Conveniently you didn't say a word about that.

by Derbymanc Tue 03 Oct 2017, 4:36 pm

JC fella's calm it down a bit, either side should be posting evidence when they're making claims rather than just a personal opinion, doesn't matter which side your on but if you can't back up your argument then you shouldn't be making it imo.

for example i went right off Corbyn when he was found to have links supporting the lawyers that were suing the troops

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12085895/Jeremy-Corbyn-condemmned-over-links-to-lawyers-who-accused-British-troops-of-abuse.html

I went off labour completely when Dianne Abbot was pulling figures out of thin air and nothing seemed to be said by the higher ups.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 4:48 pm

LionsV2 wrote:So you don't think a comment about the alt-right isn't intended to provoke?

Conveniently you didn't say a word about that.

All you seem to do is try to deflect any criticism on to somebody else.

by LionsV2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 4:50 pm

Highlighting hypocrisy isn't deflecting at all, do you or do you not think that's an acceptable comment to make?

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 4:52 pm

LionsV2 wrote:So you don't think a comment about the alt-right isn't intended to provoke?

Conveniently you didn't say a word about that.

Stop digging. I'm giving you a way out, but you keep poking. Are you going to insist on keeping this up?

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 4:52 pm

Derbymanc wrote:JC fella's calm it down a bit, either side should be posting evidence when they're making claims rather than just a personal opinion, doesn't matter which side your on but if you can't back up your argument then you shouldn't be making it imo.

for example i went right off Corbyn when he was found to have links supporting the lawyers that were suing the troops

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12085895/Jeremy-Corbyn-condemmned-over-links-to-lawyers-who-accused-British-troops-of-abuse.html

I went off labour completely when Dianne Abbot was pulling figures out of thin air and nothing seemed to be said by the higher ups.

My guess is...You weren't voting Labour anyway........Or else you may have factored in......................

1.2m using foodbanks........Dementia Tax....Foxhunting........Huge cut in legal aid......Public sector wage cap.....76 percent rise in homelessness...........Cuts to Tax credits....Police cuts....Brexit shambles.........and if we are coming to plucking figures out of thin air the Home office minister clueless about the immigration figures in front of Andrew Neil the week before the Election..

But you are free to decipher the reason for your own vote and good luck to you.. thumbsup

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 4:53 pm

Derbymanc wrote:JC fella's calm it down a bit, either side should be posting evidence when they're making claims rather than just a personal opinion, doesn't matter which side your on but if you can't back up your argument then you shouldn't be making it imo.

for example i went right off Corbyn when he was found to have links supporting the lawyers that were suing the troops

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12085895/Jeremy-Corbyn-condemmned-over-links-to-lawyers-who-accused-British-troops-of-abuse.html

I went off labour completely when Dianne Abbot was pulling figures out of thin air and nothing seemed to be said by the higher ups.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 5:07 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:JC fella's calm it down a bit, either side should be posting evidence when they're making claims rather than just a personal opinion, doesn't matter which side your on but if you can't back up your argument then you shouldn't be making it imo.

for example i went right off Corbyn when he was found to have links supporting the lawyers that were suing the troops

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12085895/Jeremy-Corbyn-condemmned-over-links-to-lawyers-who-accused-British-troops-of-abuse.html

I went off labour completely when Dianne Abbot was pulling figures out of thin air and nothing seemed to be said by the higher ups.

My guess is...You weren't voting Labour anyway........Or else you may have factored in......................

1.2m using foodbanks........Dementia Tax....Foxhunting........Huge cut in legal aid......Public sector wage cap.....76 percent rise in homelessness...........Cuts to Tax credits....Police cuts....Brexit shambles.........and if we are coming to plucking figures out of thin air the Home office minister clueless about the immigration figures in front of Andrew Neil the week before the Election..

But you are free to decipher the reason for your own vote and good luck to you..

Plus Boris Johnson pulling figures out of his bottom on a daily basis.

by Derbymanc Tue 03 Oct 2017, 5:15 pm

I stopped voting labour properly when they stopped coming round to the craphole i live in or even trying to sort any of the issues out there, instead telling me that the area was wonderful and my missus was lying that we had a problem with vandalism to my property in the area.

Not that the cons did much better as they saw it as such a lost cause they never bothered with anyone either (funnily enough the UKIP fella was round about the village all the time).

At this point in time i wouldn't vote for any of them, neither sticks to what they say, none have a clue about the actual underclass and none can explain where this money's coming from that's supposed to go on wage rises/nhs better whatever they're spouting this week.

I'm a firm believer that your manifesto should be a legal document and if you say Student fees will be cut/abolishing, the NHS will get an extra 350 million quid then you have to abide by it

Oh i'm also affected by the public sector wage cap, it's not as massive a deal as some people say as i'm not 100 percent but haven't people in the private sector been affected similar?

Foodbanks - really need looking into, i'm not sure what Labour are doing about it other than saying it's bad. It's a shame that people need them but i'd be in favour of the government putting more money into it, where to get that money from is the issue.

Dementia Tax - i thought this had been looked at and binned?

Foxhunting - Stupid idea and don't think they realise the backlash if it comes back

Cuts in Legal aid - something that really needs looking at and unless labour are bringing it back then we're stuck with it unfortunately.

Public sector wage cap - Where's the money coming from to offset this, is the private sector any different. (working hours is a different matter)

76 percent rise in homelessness - I didn't know this and would be very interested to hear what either party is saying about it.

Cuts to tax credits - Dunno if i agree with this or not, the whole benefits system needs an overhaul imo but neither party seems to be able to do it properly (bedroom tax being one that on paper sounded good but implementation was woeful)

Police Cuts - If you gotta do it, cut it in areas with low crime and send the money to carppy areas (like mine :-). Also stop closing the local police stations in run down areas (both have done this) it doesn't help matters in the slightest. Oh and start questioning the groups of youngsters hanging around, used to put the fear of god into me :-)

Brexit Shambles - Can only blame the remainers party for this, if they had concentrated on why we should stay instead of calling everyone out as racist and a lot remarking only the youngsters could pick what's best for the country we may not be in the mess we are now. (BTW the brexiteers are responsible for the mess now as they obviously didn't have a clue)

figures being wrong/so called head of ______ not knowing whats happening - Should be hauled over the coals in public by the heads of their parties for not knowing what they should know, if it happens again sack em. Noone else can get away with making such an epic F up in public for their job so why should MP's.

Good to see you back Trussy baby

by LionsV2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 5:43 pm

As a social experiment I applied for coupons at my local food bank and got them, didn't need them so didn't use them but as a measure it's a poor one.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 6:39 pm

Better to let the really poor and needy starve so nobody scams it then.

by Derbymanc Tue 03 Oct 2017, 6:45 pm

It doesn't change the fact Lions that there are people that genuinely need it at the moment and therefore it should be funded and overseen properly , the fact we have to have them is a shame upon itself but at this point in time i'm not sure on how you could change it

by LionsV2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 7:14 pm

The point being that the statistics surrounding food bank use are misleading and ultimately poor choices lead to it.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 7:24 pm

LionsV2 wrote:The point being that the statistics surrounding food bank use are misleading and ultimately poor choices lead to it.

A typically insensitive and offensive comment, no doubt backed-up by absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

by LionsV2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 7:36 pm

A retort filled with nothing of substance, hypocrisy again.

by Derbymanc Tue 03 Oct 2017, 7:36 pm

Ultimately poor choices don't i'm afraid and like Ch5 trying to tell us benefits cheats are everywhere it's completely misleading to try and say that. the governments complete inability to sort out benefits etc are a big part of the problem on why food banks are needed at the moment and this whole lets go in and reduce poeple's income before doing any proper research is a bit of a joke (although i must admit i don't know that for a fact that's how it seems to me)

by LionsV2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 7:38 pm

Having kids you can't afford and wasting money on non essentials is a contributing factor, there is only so much help the government should provide.

by Derbymanc Tue 03 Oct 2017, 7:49 pm

Not all people do that and from my experiences a lot of food bank recipients are people that have lost jobs/ rent has risen etc etc that they can no longer afford the basics, never mind the extra's.

It's a fallacy to think that everyone that needs government assistance (in any way) is cheating the system and that most are living the high life, there are a few but not as many as they'd like us to think. For those that do, the book should well and truly be thrown at them, those that don't and are trying to better themselves or just live a life without struggling for the next meal deserve our help and respect

by Duty281 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 7:50 pm

Derby - Correct to say that Labour appear to be offering no solutions to the rise in food bank usage. Of course, one thing that is seldom discussed in our media, is that foodbank use is on the rise across the continent (foodbank usage is higher in France, Germany and Spain), so it’s not exclusively a UK issue.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 7:54 pm

LionsV2 wrote:Having kids you can't afford and wasting money on non essentials is a contributing factor, there is only so much help the government should provide.

So you seriously think that, rather than the cutting of benefits for the poor, the rise in food bank usage is down to an increase in the wasting of money by the poor?

by LionsV2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 7:55 pm

The more publicised something is the more it gets used hence the rise in them in recent years. It varies from area to area Derby and my experiences of them are not positive.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 7:59 pm

Again, anything to back up that assertion? Or is it just "your personal opinion"?

by LionsV2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:02 pm

I forgot you don't actually live here so don't have a clue nor are you giving an opinion, quite the irritation.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:04 pm

Yougov London poll..

Lab 55
Con 30

Labour might not be offering solutions....But they are offering to clean up London.

The Education Secretary will be saying Au revoir on these numbers. Khan has a job for life.

I'm a firm believer Governments lose Elections rather than Oppositions winning.

The Tories are going to have to stop responding and start forming the narrative...Can't see Labour getting a majority but who else are the Libs/SNP going to back up.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:05 pm

LionsV2 wrote:I forgot you don't actually live here so don't have a clue nor are you giving an opinion, quite the irritation.

So no, then. Nothing at all to back up this baseless assertion. Thought not.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:06 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Yougov London poll..

Lab 55
Con 30

Labour might not be offering solutions....But they are offering to clean up London.

The Education Secretary will be saying Au revoir on these numbers. Khan has a job for life.

I'm a firm believer Governments lose Elections rather than Oppositions winning.

The Tories are going to have to stop responding and start forming the narrative...Can't see Labour getting a majority but who else are the Libs/SNP going to back up.

Theresa May can't even keep control of her cabinet, so it's hardly surprising that the public are beginning not to trust her ability to control important stuff.

by GSC Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:16 pm

And most of Corbyns wanted him replaced prior to the election so can't be an outright killer.

Don't think we'll see another Lib Dem coalition in the near future so would have to be supply demand

by **ShahenshahG** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:38 pm

Boris said that UK business could turne Sirte in Libya into the new Dubai once they clear away the dead bodies.

by LionsV2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:58 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:I forgot you don't actually live here so don't have a clue nor are you giving an opinion, quite the irritation.

So no, then. Nothing at all to back up this baseless assertion. Thought not.

Not got anything to add then? Thought not.

Strange you've not asked anyone else to back up their opinions, looks like I'm in your head.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:11 pm

You're the only one making baseless accusations, old boy.

by LionsV2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:06 pm

As opposed to not saying anything and jumping on the comments of just one poster. I suppose you know all about food banks what with not living in the country.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 8:17 am

Standard view that people who earn a decent or better living have done so due to their own merits and hard work and those who haven't are undeserving or lazy. Why should.we contribute to them when they don't help themselves. A silly and selfish attitude.

by Ent Wed 04 Oct 2017, 8:40 am

Does anyone have any actual information to back up their claims?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-40431701

5/6 users unemployed, 1/3 mentally ill, majority with low educational achievement. Usually prompted by an unexpected financial burden.

Food banks are a complicated issue and are overly politicised imo. For all we know people were just going hungry before their use increased.

Reasons other than poverty for increase in use;

Universal credit roll out - saw an article on the BBC on this recently (apologies can't find link) delays in payment leaving people without money for weeks. Also payment made to person at end of month rather than direct to landlords and different payments being staggered. A number of people (some with alcohol issues) blowing their money early in the month/mismanaging it and having none left for food coke the end of the month.

Better availability/awareness.

Better funding, councils putting a lot of money into them - probably have a higher standard of food available.

by Scottrf Wed 04 Oct 2017, 9:05 am

LionsV2 wrote:Having kids you can't afford and wasting money on non essentials is a contributing factor, there is only so much help the government should provide.

Edwardians had it right, poor people shouldn't be allowed to breed.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 10:17 am

Emily Thornberry is favorite for the Labour leadership now.......5/1...6/1...etc

Hope you guys of a betting disposition lumped on when I said she would be a shoo in when she was back on 16/1 ...

A Corbyn loyalist will get the job.............The threshold is now only 10% of MPs (30 left wingers at least).....It is a left wing membership............They will think it is time a Woman got the job... thumbsup

Len McClusky of Unite loves her...

by Samo Wed 04 Oct 2017, 10:19 am

ShahenshahG wrote:Boris said that UK business could turne Sirte in Libya into the new Dubai once they clear away the dead bodies.

Boris needs to remember that he is supposed to be Britains leading diplomat, and not on 'Have I Got News For You'. An absolute embarassment.

Any other government at any other time he would have been sacked long ago. But because he's a figure head for the Church of Brexit May cant sack him without incuring the wrath of the Brexit Brigade. Its a disgrace.

by LionsV2 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 10:22 am

Theresa May has learned from David Cameron's mistake, as a Conservative there is one that you do not go against.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 11:13 am

Samo wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Boris said that UK business could turne Sirte in Libya into the new Dubai once they clear away the dead bodies.

Boris needs to remember that he is supposed to be Britains leading diplomat, and not on 'Have I Got News For You'. An absolute embarassment.

Any other government at any other time he would have been sacked long ago. But because he's a figure head for the Church of Brexit May cant sack him without incuring the wrath of the Brexit Brigade. Its a disgrace.

She can't sack him...Like she can't sack Hammond or Davis because she hasn't got a majority and they will be able to trigger the 40 or 50 letters needed for a leadership election............

Trouble for her is Boris topped a list of members poll for who they want to take over............The longer he waits the more likely a younger star (Like Cameron in 2005) will come out of the pack and stake a claim...

by LionsV2 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 11:15 am

There isn't anyone Truss who will usurp Johnson any time soon, Rees-Mogg has seen a surge in his popularity for instance but still pales in comparison but as a Brexiteer could be enough to see him get a senior cabinet position if it does happen.

by Samo Wed 04 Oct 2017, 11:39 am

Rees-Mogg or Boris. Jesus. Its like being asked if you'd rather lose your right or left leg, theres no right answer.

If you're looking for the young star look no further than Ruth Davidson. She could easily lead the Tories if she wanted the job - shes essentially the female equivalent of Cameron. The only thing holding her back would be her sexuality and whether some of the other party members could see past that.

by LionsV2 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:03 pm

As a Conservative Johnson and Rees-Mogg are like Manna from heaven, the core support that the former has in particular is why the left wing media jump on everything he says so much, he's the one they worry about.

Davidson isn't a bad shout and they need to get her into a safe seat ASAP but that is a big reason why she's not a viable option right now, she'll be party leader eventually I would have thought, amongst remainers she's the most popular.

by Ent Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:13 pm

Boris gets jumped on because he makes gaffes regularly. Personally think he's a bit of an idiot and don't buy the bumbling is put on.

Why would Davidson's sexuality be an issue, it's 2017...

by Scottrf Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:20 pm

Ent wrote:Boris gets jumped on because he makes gaffes regularly. Personally think he's a bit of an idiot and don't buy the bumbling is put on.

Why would Davidson's sexuality be an issue, it's 2017...

Well, you realise that her party voted against same sex marriage? Of course it's an issue.

by Ent Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:29 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Ent wrote:Boris gets jumped on because he makes gaffes regularly. Personally think he's a bit of an idiot and don't buy the bumbling is put on.

Why would Davidson's sexuality be an issue, it's 2017...

Well, you realise that her party voted against same sex marriage? Of course it's an issue.

Was a Cameron manifesto pledge and policy wasn't it.

Portillo was deputy leader after he revealed his past dealings.

I really don't think it will be an issue in 2017.

by Duty281 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:31 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Emily Thornberry is favorite for the Labour leadership now.......5/1...6/1...etc

Hope you guys of a betting disposition lumped on when I said she would be a shoo in when she was back on 16/1 ...

A Corbyn loyalist will get the job.............The threshold is now only 10% of MPs (30 left wingers at least).....It is a left wing membership............They will think it is time a Woman got the job...

Len McClusky of Unite loves her...

Getting Emily Thornberry in would be a sure tactic to keep Labour out.

Personally think the next leader will be Jarvis or Starmer, but Saint Jeremy will hang on for a little while longer.

by Scottrf Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:32 pm

Ent wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Ent wrote:Boris gets jumped on because he makes gaffes regularly. Personally think he's a bit of an idiot and don't buy the bumbling is put on.

Why would Davidson's sexuality be an issue, it's 2017...

Well, you realise that her party voted against same sex marriage? Of course it's an issue.

Was a Cameron manifesto pledge and policy wasn't it.

Portillo was deputy leader after he revealed his past dealings.

I really don't think it will be an issue in 2017.

It was, but obviously a problem with over half of the conservative MPs. You've think they've changed their views in the 4 years since? Very head in the sand.

by Duty281 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:33 pm

Ent wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Ent wrote:Boris gets jumped on because he makes gaffes regularly. Personally think he's a bit of an idiot and don't buy the bumbling is put on.

Why would Davidson's sexuality be an issue, it's 2017...

Well, you realise that her party voted against same sex marriage? Of course it's an issue.

Was a Cameron manifesto pledge and policy wasn't it.

Portillo was deputy leader after he revealed his past dealings.

I really don't think it will be an issue in 2017.

Her biggest obstacle is not having a Parliamentary seat.

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