British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

robbo277 wrote:
But as I said, I don't want players to water down their comments. I want to read what the players think, I don't want to read what the press officer tells them to say.

That's fair enough, and I agree with the rest of your comment on this basis. I personally don't particularly care what Mike Brown thinks, especially when it's as obvious as "experienced test player is disappointed to have not been selected for the Lions". I could have told you that without Mike Brown's public statement. The point where it deviated from him merely expressing his disappointment to one where he's put his foot in his mouth is the fact he questioned the coaches' lack of communication to him personally. Even if he's right- and I think he may well be- to publicly bring that into question in the way he has done is antithetical to the whole business of a squad as a unity, a whole above the self.

As for him being a liability, I agree to an extent, but equally he does get in his fair few verbal and physical scraps. He's clearly not a player who's particularly in control of his emotions, a bit like Biggar, in that he wants to plead his case long after it is obvious his efforts are utterly in vain. He's not a catastrophe by any means, but having played with people like him, they can be liabilities. Ticking time bomb may be the incorrect phrase, and overdoing it slightly, but that doesn't negate the point entirely. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter, as I don't think it really affects his performance or mentality, and the players around him, too much: but if it did, it's hard to quantify anyway.

Didn't we have this discussion a month ago? We don't need to create any more reasons for Gwlad to post.

1/2p was a great tourist on the last tour so its not like he cant play rugby. He also seems to be a great professional and has a good attitude. I think both Brown and Kearney have been better than him in the last 12 months though and therefore he is very lucky to tour.

It is what it is however, so lets hope 1/2p can raise his game to 2013 levels.

NZ is not the place to take players based on past glories in the hope they pull a performance out of the bag.

TightHEAD wrote:NZ is not the place to take players based on past glories in the hope they pull a performance out of the bag.  

I know Clive Woodward was the worst for that. I agree I wouldn't have picked him but none of his competition really stood out either. Im sure he will be fine.

At least those glories were winning the World Cup not scraping a series against a poor Oz side.

Halfpenny has been playing well for Toulon in the latter part of the season, he's nowhere near the attacking threat of others like Hogg but Brown takes the ball into contact too much and lacks vision in attack, whilst Kearney hasn't played great for a few seasons now.

I prefer Williams by a long shot though, would be my starting no15.

Good points Samthequin but I would still have picked Brown ahead of Halfpenny even though Brown has the flaws you mention. Brown also has experience beating the ABs and has a much better record vs SH sides.

As 3rd choice 15 I'd rather have Brown.

beshocked wrote:Good points Samthequin but I would still have picked Brown ahead of Halfpenny even though Brown has the flaws you mention. Brown also has experience beating the ABs and has a much better record vs SH sides.

As 3rd choice 15 I'd rather have Brown.

Three 15s aren't needed, not with Payne, Daly and Watson all in the squad as 13, 13/wing, and wing who cover 15.

Picking the best back threes, I'd want Williams and Hogg as my 15s, while Watson, North, Seymour, Daly and Nowell are fine choices as wingers. Then, unless you're considering playing Daly or Nowell in the centres (or envisage potentially using them as cover in there), I'd say that's enough back three players. You don't really have an established unit in there, so you're going to want to give people enough time to bed in.

With Sexon, Biggar, Farrell, Te'o, Henshaw, Davies, Joseph, Payne, we have 8 names for 4 matchday shirts, so I'm not sure we really need to rely on Daly or Nowell covering centre too much, therefore the 7 back 3 players will be fine.

I disagree strongly with the selection of Halfpenny, because I don't want him taking game-time from my two first choice full backs. But if you take Williams as a winger primarily, then Halfpenny makes more sense as a second choice full-back, competing with Brown and Kearney.

I do think perhaps we're a little overstocked on wingers now though, and with 6 wingers competing for 2 shirts, I think it might be difficult for anyone to find any great form on tour.

robbo277 wrote:...I do think perhaps we're a little overstocked on wingers now though, and with 6 wingers competing for 2 shirts, I think it might be difficult for anyone to find any great form on tour.

Wouldn't be surprised if Gatland made that choice after the experience of having to call up Wade & Williams in Australia. Then again, you can't cover every injury eventuality. We could just as easily run out of scrum halves this time.

Gwlad wrote:This is a Lions thread, not a Sarries and England thread.
...

Do you ever take a step back and look at what you write? A line like the above when you go on any and every international thread in an attempt to bring it back to Wales players and Lions selections?

Rugby Fan wrote:

robbo277 wrote:...I do think perhaps we're a little overstocked on wingers now though, and with 6 wingers competing for 2 shirts, I think it might be difficult for anyone to find any great form on tour.

Wouldn't be surprised if Gatland made that choice after the experience of having to call up Wade & Williams in Australia. Then again, you can't cover every injury eventuality. We could just as easily run out of scrum halves this time.

It's a very fine balance between picking enough players to cover injury eventuality, and getting a streamlined squad so you can efficiently answer selection questions and prepare your team.

Personally, I'd much sooner take fewer players (especially in a less attritional position) and perhaps call in temporary cover if required.

For example, in my squad (dropping Halfpenny with no replacement), you could cover an injury to (say) Watson by starting North, Seymour and Hogg one game and Daly, Nowell and Williams the next. Players might have to pull double duty on the bench, but you could mitigate that by trying not to use the bench option if you can help it - as all back three players should be capable of going 80.

A more serious injury (chance of more than 1 week) or two knocks and you'd get on the phone. But if you were already out there, the person you were calling up probably wouldn't play more than midweek games.

There is some merit in the NZH article. Gopperth only looks exceptional in England, because he is a fast ball player. In the Pro12 despite being probably more at home, he didn't stand out, which was similar to his time in Super Rugby.

The Great Aukster wrote:There is some merit in the NZH article. Gopperth only looks exceptional in England, because he is a fast ball player. In the Pro12 despite being probably more at home, he didn't stand out, which was similar to his time in Super Rugby.

Yet England score more tries than the other countries in the Pro 12. Interesting that.

SamTheQuin wrote:Halfpenny has been playing well for Toulon in the latter part of the season, he's nowhere near the attacking threat of others like Hogg but Brown takes the ball into contact too much and lacks vision in attack, whilst Kearney hasn't played great for a few seasons now.

I prefer Williams by a long shot though, would be my starting no15.

Not true really. Kearney has been really strong in all games he has played against NZ lately and he was one of the better full backs in the six nations. His six nations stats are strong when you compare them to all other B&I options.

He wouldnt have been a popular choice but it isnt true to say he hasnt been playing well.

beshocked wrote:Good points Samthequin but I would still have picked Brown ahead of Halfpenny even though Brown has the flaws you mention. Brown also has experience beating the ABs and has a much better record vs SH sides.

As 3rd choice 15 I'd rather have Brown.

Kearney has a better record against SH sides than Brown. Kearney has been on the winning side vs NZ, SA, Aus and Arg. Mind you so has Halfpenny.

Would have taken Kearney over Halfpenny but in fairness after Hogg the fullbacks are all much of a muchness. None are particularly standing out anymore. If not for Hogg I'd consider Liam Williams for the tests at fullback

SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:Would have taken Kearney over Halfpenny but in fairness after Hogg the fullbacks are all much of a muchness. None are particularly standing out anymore. If not for Hogg I'd consider Liam Williams for the tests at fullback

Im the same. Id probably even choose Payne over all others too.

I find that hard to believe Gunsgerms when Brown has a win rate of 68% and Kearney's is 51%.......

I know Irish fans repeatedly puff out their chests due to that 1 win vs NZ but Brown has been successful vs NZ too.

You've been forcing me to defend "won't pass" Mike Brown.

Halfpenny has a similar winning % to Kearney - 52%.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Kearney has a better record against SH sides than Brown. Kearney has been on the winning side vs NZ, SA, Aus and Arg. Mind you so has Halfpenny.

Rob Kearney has won 8 games out of 24 v NZ, SA, Aus and Arg. He has 74 caps in total with a 51% win rate.

Mike Brown has won 12 out of 25 games v the same teams. 60 caps with a 68% win ratio.

Brown has also beaten all those teams too so not sure why you're using that to brag about Kearney?

beshocked wrote:I find that hard to believe Gunsgerms when Brown has a win rate of 68% and Kearney's is 51%.......

I know Irish fans repeatedly puff out their chests due to that 1 win vs NZ but Brown has been successful vs NZ too.

You've been forcing me to defend "won't pass" Mike Brown.

Halfpenny has a similar winning % to Kearney - 52%.

Kearney has been on two Lions tours too dont forget.

Under an aerial bombardment Kearney is the full back you want and I'd have taken him for that reason.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:I find that hard to believe Gunsgerms when Brown has a win rate of 68% and Kearney's is 51%.......

I know Irish fans repeatedly puff out their chests due to that 1 win vs NZ but Brown has been successful vs NZ too.

You've been forcing me to defend "won't pass" Mike Brown.

Halfpenny has a similar winning % to Kearney - 52%.

Kearney has been on two Lions tours too dont forget.

So what?

Hammersmith Harrier I'd disagree with you there. Brown has his flaws and weaknesses but he's generally good under the high ball. An area I think he's superior to Kearney currently.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:Would have taken Kearney over Halfpenny but in fairness after Hogg the fullbacks are all much of a muchness. None are particularly standing out anymore. If not for Hogg I'd consider Liam Williams for the tests at fullback

Im the same. Id probably even choose Payne over all others too.

Wouldn't have gone that far Germs. Payne unproven at fullback at international level and too much of a risk in the tests for me because of that. Look forward to seeing him play from the backfield on a regular basis for Ireland next season though

That's based on the past. Kearney hasn't been the hero of the high ball for a number of seasons now. In fact he often loses out to the opposite 15 nowadays. He shouldn't be in the top 3 fullbacks for Ireland anymore, for goodness sake.

Stuart Hogg, Liam Williams and Anthony Watson would be the top 3 fullbacks who pose any real threat to an opposition team.

beshocked wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:I find that hard to believe Gunsgerms when Brown has a win rate of 68% and Kearney's is 51%.......

I know Irish fans repeatedly puff out their chests due to that 1 win vs NZ but Brown has been successful vs NZ too.

You've been forcing me to defend "won't pass" Mike Brown.

Halfpenny has a similar winning % to Kearney - 52%.

Kearney has been on two Lions tours too dont forget.

So what?

Hammersmith Harrier I'd disagree with you there. Brown has his flaws and weaknesses but he's generally good under the high ball. An area I think he's superior to Kearney currently.

So they are obviously included in his wins v SH sides. I suspect you werent following the conversation from the start.

beshocked wrote:

Hammersmith Harrier I'd disagree with you there. Brown has his flaws and weaknesses but he's generally good under the high ball. An area I think he's superior to Kearney currently.

Not a lot between them but both are way ahead of Halfpenny in that respect.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:I find that hard to believe Gunsgerms when Brown has a win rate of 68% and Kearney's is 51%.......

I know Irish fans repeatedly puff out their chests due to that 1 win vs NZ but Brown has been successful vs NZ too.

You've been forcing me to defend "won't pass" Mike Brown.

Halfpenny has a similar winning % to Kearney - 52%.

Kearney has been on two Lions tours too dont forget.

So what?

Hammersmith Harrier I'd disagree with you there. Brown has his flaws and weaknesses but he's generally good under the high ball. An area I think he's superior to Kearney currently.

So they are obviously included in his wins v SH sides. I suspect you werent following the conversation from the start.

The one win against South Africa isn't changing a lot.

How many wins v SA does Brown have? I suspect almost all his wins are v Aus and Arg.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That's based on the past. Kearney hasn't been the hero of the high ball for a number of seasons now. In fact he often loses out to the opposite 15 nowadays. He shouldn't be in the top 3 fullbacks for Ireland anymore, for goodness sake.

Stuart Hogg, Liam Williams and Anthony Watson would be the top 3 fullbacks who pose any real threat to an opposition team.

Can you name an international game recently that he hasnt played well in? He was one of our better backs in the six nations and the November tests.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That's based on the past. Kearney hasn't been the hero of the high ball for a number of seasons now. In fact he often loses out to the opposite 15 nowadays. He shouldn't be in the top 3 fullbacks for Ireland anymore, for goodness sake.

Stuart Hogg, Liam Williams and Anthony Watson would be the top 3 fullbacks who pose any real threat to an opposition team.

Can you name an international game recently that he hasnt played well in? He was one of our better backs in the six nations and the November tests.

He was decent and no more than that. His rivals have been better than decent. His rivals in Ireland have been better than decent.

That's because our back line is mediocre with possibly the bluntest attack out of every other team in the Six Nations.

Kearney was strong through the AIs but didn't think he was great through the 6 nations. Its Payne's shirt next season and hopefully O'Halloran shows Schmidt something during the summer

This is fun.

Kearney - New Zealand 11 games 1 win. South Africa 3 / 2. Aus - 6 / 3. Arg - 4 / 2.

Brown - NZ 7 games 1 win. SA 6 / 1. Aus 8 / 6. Argentina 4 / 4.

Brown still better record.

Well said MichaelT

Though Kearney did beat SA one more time so clearly he's the more successful player vs SH sides....

Why are we debating the win/loss records of Kearney vs Brown when:

1) Surely the other 14 guys have a large part to play in match outcomes
2) Neither is going on the tour, nor likely to do so unless there is a rash of injuries.

LondonTiger wrote:Why are we debating the win/loss records of Kearney vs Brown

Its Friday evening we all need something to do in work

Because its the internet and debating ridiculous things that we personally have no control over is half the fun.

lol like two bald men fighting over a comb. I don't get why some, but you especially BS come out with "he's beaten this team more times than you, etc." Did Brown beat all those teams by himself? I thought the games were won by a good England team.

SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Why are we debating the win/loss records of Kearney vs Brown

Its Friday evening we all need something to do in work

I wish it was Friday evening, I'd have finished for the week!

SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:Kearney was strong through the AIs but didn't think he was great through the 6 nations. Its Payne's shirt next season and hopefully O'Halloran shows Schmidt something during the summer

Payne played 1 game at full back in the six nations. He played well but made some mistakes that you would never see Kearney make. Yes he probably is a better all round player but if you are looking at form you cant say Kearney hasnt been playing well.

And Payne created some attacking opportunities we would never have seen from Kearney... Outside of the high ball which Kearney is getting beating under more often these days I don't think he's in form.

mikey_dragon wrote:lol like two bald men fighting over a comb. I don't get why some, but you especially BS come out with "he's beaten this team more times than you, etc." Did Brown beat all those teams by himself? I thought the games were won by a good England team.

It makes sense for you to play down the importance of beating SH sides.... Not something I guess you are particularly used to with Gatland in charge....

No Brown didn't win these games by himself but he contributed, even if he wasn't the best player on the pitch.

beshocked wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:lol like two bald men fighting over a comb. I don't get why some, but you especially BS come out with "he's beaten this team more times than you, etc." Did Brown beat all those teams by himself? I thought the games were won by a good England team.

It makes sense for you to play down the importance of beating SH sides.... Not something I guess you are particularly used to with Gatland in charge....

No Brown didn't win these games by himself but he contributed, even if he wasn't the best player on the pitch.

I'm not playing anything down I just think you were posting bonehead comments regarding the comparison, which you have further emphasised now with his ignorant comment. And you did it without even trying, bravo BS .

mikey_dragon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:lol like two bald men fighting over a comb. I don't get why some, but you especially BS come out with "he's beaten this team more times than you, etc." Did Brown beat all those teams by himself? I thought the games were won by a good England team.

It makes sense for you to play down the importance of beating SH sides.... Not something I guess you are particularly used to with Gatland in charge....

No Brown didn't win these games by himself but he contributed, even if he wasn't the best player on the pitch.

I'm not playing anything down I just think you were posting bonehead comments regarding the comparison, which you have further emphasised now with his ignorant comment. And you did it without even trying, bravo BS .

It's not ignorant to suggest beating SH sides is important when trying to beat SH sides.... Look I get it, hard for you to understand.

It's not boneheaded to bust a myth by Gunsgerms.

The problem being winning games doesn't really tell you much about individuals in teams.

MichaelT wrote:This is fun.

Kearney - New Zealand 11 games 1 win. South Africa 3 / 2. Aus - 6 / 3. Arg - 4 / 2.

Brown - NZ 7 games 1 win. SA 6 / 1. Aus 8 / 6. Argentina 4 / 4.

Brown still better record.

Kearney has been a lion twice I believe, something Brown can only dream of so there is no comparison between these two, the one is a petulant player with the inability to pass the ball, the other a superb defensive and attacking fullback and an Irish great

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That's based on the past. Kearney hasn't been the hero of the high ball for a number of seasons now. In fact he often loses out to the opposite 15 nowadays. He shouldn't be in the top 3 fullbacks for Ireland anymore, for goodness sake.

Stuart Hogg, Liam Williams and Anthony Watson would be the top 3 fullbacks who pose any real threat to an opposition team.

Can you name an international game recently that he hasnt played well in? He was one of our better backs in the six nations and the November tests.

I thought he was poor every match he played this 6N, to be honest

GunsGermsV2 wrote:How many wins v SA does Brown have? I suspect almost all his wins are v Aus and Arg.

Brown has 1 win vs SA and 1 win vs NZ, I believe.

beshocked wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:lol like two bald men fighting over a comb. I don't get why some, but you especially BS come out with "he's beaten this team more times than you, etc." Did Brown beat all those teams by himself? I thought the games were won by a good England team.

It makes sense for you to play down the importance of beating SH sides.... Not something I guess you are particularly used to with Gatland in charge....

No Brown didn't win these games by himself but he contributed, even if he wasn't the best player on the pitch.

I'm not playing anything down I just think you were posting bonehead comments regarding the comparison, which you have further emphasised now with his ignorant comment. And you did it without even trying, bravo BS .

It's not ignorant to suggest beating SH sides is important when trying to beat SH sides.... Look I get it, hard for you to understand.

It's not boneheaded to bust a myth by Gunsgerms.

Now we see why you're called BS; replying to something that nobody said. I hope you're not a Lions follower as I don't want you repping my banner innit.

Brown would like to think he's beaten all these teams by himself but then thats why he isn't touring. A player's win record seems irrelevant to me compared to his individual reputation and form. Brown has stood on the shoulders of those around him, initially a class act his temperament and lack of skill has been accompanied by a dip in form. Comparing him with Kearney is really pointless, their only similarity being the position they play.

No way can Sexton be the first choice No10 for the Lions.

Awful performance vs Scarlets, JD2 owned him.

Farrell all the way.