Argentina vs England, 2nd test

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Match Details

Venue: Estadio Brigadier Estanislao López, Santa Fe
Date: Saturday 17th June
Time: 20:15 BST
TV: BBC2



Officials

Referee - John Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant 1 - Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2 - Egon Seconds (South Africa)
TMO - Aaron Paterson (New Zealand)


Teams

Argentina
15 Joaquin Tuculet, 14 Ramiro Moyano, 13 Matias Orlando, 12 Jeronimo de la Fuente, 11 Emiliano Boffelli, 10 Nicolas Sanchez, 9 Martín Landajo, 8 Juan Manuel Leguizamon, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Tomas Lavanini, 4 Matias Alemanno, 3 Enrique Pieretto, 2 Agustín Creevy (captain), 1 Lucas Noguera Paz.
Replacements: 16 Julian Montoya, 17 Santiago García Botta, 18 Ramiro Herrera, 19 Guido Petti, 20 Tomas Lezana, 21 Gonzalo Bertranou, 22 Juan Martin Hernández, 23 Matias Moroni.

England

yappysnap wrote:8 tries in 12 appearances.

Savea-esque

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think we'd all LOVE another game like that, but im not sure Eddie would.

Im sure he loved that first game and got into the spirit of it, but I suspect he'll be looking for far more structure this game.

Obviously this is a weakened England team against a strong Argentina game, but if our stated aim is to be number one, what do we need to show against Argentina - given NZ have just beat Samoa 78-0? Or does that not factor?

I think we need to focus on our attack, and there are two main factors for me ball playing/offloading in the forwards and turning defence into attack. We had a bit of both in Week 1, but these are the biggest two areas for me. Will be interesting to see how Genge, Williams and Underhill go in this respect (Genge turnover and Williams pass for Yarde's try were both nice pieces of play).

In the backs, Slade has looked classy every time he's turned out for England, and it will be interesting to see how he goes again. Solomona as well, agree with his inclusion or not, could be a potent attacking weapon for England.

I think Eddie will be looking for structure initially, try to dominate the tight exchanges up front . However when opportunities are on...we need to be brutally efficient and take chances.

Last weekend was almost like a 7's / basketball game.

robbo277 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think we'd all LOVE another game like that, but im not sure Eddie would.

Im sure he loved that first game and got into the spirit of it, but I suspect he'll be looking for far more structure this game.

Obviously this is a weakened England team against a strong Argentina game, but if our stated aim is to be number one, what do we need to show against Argentina - given NZ have just beat Samoa 78-0? Or does that not factor?

I think we need to focus on our attack, and there are two main factors for me ball playing/offloading in the forwards and turning defence into attack. We had a bit of both in Week 1, but these are the biggest two areas for me. Will be interesting to see how Genge, Williams and Underhill go in this respect (Genge turnover and Williams pass for Yarde's try were both nice pieces of play).

In the backs, Slade has looked classy every time he's turned out for England, and it will be interesting to see how he goes again. Solomona as well, agree with his inclusion or not, could be a potent attacking weapon for England.

Results like the Samoa one are in part down to years of dominance on NZ's part. A lot of teams these days are beaten before they step out on to the field. Even if they think, "we're going to have a go here" if NZ get a reasonable lead (because lets face it, they are very good even without the psychological edge) teams can then think "oh no, here we go, it's happening again" and heads inevitably drop.

It's unrealistic to aspire to results like that IMO. For me, just keep winning. Whoever you play, whatever team you are able to field, just win. That will breed confidence and the other aspects should start to grow naturally. Before you know it, your attack and defence are well oiled machines and big scores start to come.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think we'd all LOVE another game like that, but im not sure Eddie would.

Im sure he loved that first game and got into the spirit of it, but I suspect he'll be looking for far more structure this game.

At the risk of being labelled a contrarian ( I hope not, I hope my posts to date have been consistent enough in what I like) I really wouldn't love another game like that.

It's not my cup of tea tbh. I much preferred the Crusaders game in the morning because I felt it was much more intense.

Now, I may have been on my feet shouting at the TV when Solomona rounded that last man and we snatched it at the end. But I spent the rest of the game slumped in my chair exasperated at poor defence, the sloppiness and looseness of the contest and our inability to exert some sustained control over the game. That's not to say I didn't enjoy the game, there were plenty of bits of nice skill to applaud, but mostly I found it a frustrating viewing.

The Crusaders game on the other hand, I was on the edge of my seat for the entire game. Yes, there was some poor execution, and that's frustrating too, but It's different. That was more "ooh so close, we're nearly there". The frustration in the Argentina game was "oh for gods sake someone get a grip".

Yarde is certainly an odd one. Scoring tries at a good level in his appearances at international level but struggles to score tries at club level.

One of the worst performing club wingers this season yet was a try scorer for England vs Argentina- very strange.

Is it motivation perhaps? Can't be bothered for his club but tries harder at international level?

beshocked wrote:Yarde is certainly an odd one. Scoring tries at a good level in his appearances at international level but struggles to score tries at club level.

One of the worst performing club wingers this season yet was a try scorer for England vs Argentina- very strange.

Is it motivation perhaps? Can't be bothered for his club but tries harder at international level?

Could be something to do with the quality of ball coming his way too. Quins weren't exactly great last season. Tactics are also a factor sometimes

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yarde is certainly an odd one. Scoring tries at a good level in his appearances at international level but struggles to score tries at club level.

One of the worst performing club wingers this season yet was a try scorer for England vs Argentina- very strange.

Is it motivation perhaps? Can't be bothered for his club but tries harder at international level?

Could be something to do with the quality of ball coming his way too. Quins weren't exactly great last season. Tactics are also a factor sometimes

Well Visser did much better with less game time and same quality of ball....

Then there's of course most other wingers in the AP, not every wing gets good ball.

Solomona for example plays in a weaker team than Quins yet didn't stop him either.

Guess you'd have to watch the games and judge from that. A winger or any player may show intelligence to track etc but not receive that pass or offload that a national coach would expect from his team. Alternatively a player may look excellent for his club but would have the same balance of the pack around him at international level to gt that same performance.

That said I'm looking forward to solomona get a few more min under his belt. He's going to be excellent.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah I just think when it comes to being a settled side not sure 2 3 or 4 games on ghe trot would be good gor him long term. He's good enough but not fully mature.

The big issue with kids of Curry's age - even well developed ones - is not to break them in the long term by overplaying them in the short term. I suspect Eddie has achieved what he wanted to: he knows that in skills terms they can cut it. Now, he can send them away to work on their conditioning and physical maturity, keep them in camp to work on tactical maturity, and bring them in when he thinks they are ready.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

yappysnap wrote:8 tries in 12 appearances.

Savea-esque

Twice as good when you compare the teams they're in

beshocked wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yarde is certainly an odd one. Scoring tries at a good level in his appearances at international level but struggles to score tries at club level.

One of the worst performing club wingers this season yet was a try scorer for England vs Argentina- very strange.

Is it motivation perhaps? Can't be bothered for his club but tries harder at international level?

Could be something to do with the quality of ball coming his way too. Quins weren't exactly great last season. Tactics are also a factor sometimes

Well Visser did much better with less game time and same quality of ball....

Then there's of course most other wingers in the AP, not every wing gets good ball.

Solomona for example plays in a weaker team than Quins yet didn't stop him either.

Visser is a very different style of player to Yarde. For one thing, he's an interception specialist. He reads passes very well and I reckon about half his tries come from interceptions. But he's very much a straight up and down winger: he plays in his channel and takes the opportunities when he gets them.

What I see is that Yarde does more donkey work. He comes off his wing and offers himself for carries, and he's actually pretty selfless for Quins. He takes quite a lot of crappy ball and takes it into contact to be a target for the forwards. He doesn't make a lot of line breaks because we're not currently able to give him that space. Maybe if we can keep the same two centres fit for more than a week at a time... in some ways Yarde is playing as an ancillary OC rather than a winger.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

yappysnap wrote:8 tries in 12 appearances.

Savea-esque

Hes scored most of them against god opposition too ...twice in 3 tests in New Zealand, away to Aus too. So more than just a flat track bully.

beshocked wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yarde is certainly an odd one. Scoring tries at a good level in his appearances at international level but struggles to score tries at club level.

One of the worst performing club wingers this season yet was a try scorer for England vs Argentina- very strange.

Is it motivation perhaps? Can't be bothered for his club but tries harder at international level?

Could be something to do with the quality of ball coming his way too. Quins weren't exactly great last season. Tactics are also a factor sometimes

Well Visser did much better with less game time and same quality of ball....

Then there's of course most other wingers in the AP, not every wing gets good ball.

Solomona for example plays in a weaker team than Quins yet didn't stop him either.

Visser receives a lot of kicks and scores from those, he's also nabbed some intercepts this season. Yarde is used more to carry the ball and draw on defenders, his tries come from well cut lines through the middle and being on the end of some good phases of play, which are rare for Quins this season!

Or what poorfour said

Gooseberry wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

yappysnap wrote:8 tries in 12 appearances.

Savea-esque

Hes scored most of them against god opposition too ...twice in 3 tests in New Zealand, away to Aus too. So more than just a flat track bully.

Unlike say, Ashton, who's 19 in 39 included 4 in 1 game vs Italy, 2 in 1 game vs Georgia and 3 in 1 game vs Romania. Without those, he's on a much more modest 10 in 36.

robbo277 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

yappysnap wrote:8 tries in 12 appearances.

Savea-esque

Hes scored most of them against god opposition too ...twice in 3 tests in New Zealand, away to Aus too. So more than just a flat track bully.

Unlike say, Ashton, who's 19 in 39 included 4 in 1 game vs Italy, 2 in 1 game vs Georgia and 3 in 1 game vs Romania. Without those, he's on a much more modest 10 in 36.

It all makes sense now.


Marland Yarde. Englands best wing since Robinson.

Perhaps even better than Robinson?

robbo277 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

yappysnap wrote:8 tries in 12 appearances.

Savea-esque

Hes scored most of them against god opposition too ...twice in 3 tests in New Zealand, away to Aus too. So more than just a flat track bully.

Unlike say, Ashton, who's 19 in 39 included 4 in 1 game vs Italy, 2 in 1 game vs Georgia and 3 in 1 game vs Romania. Without those, he's on a much more modest 10 in 36.

Oh you didn't!

cascough wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think we'd all LOVE another game like that, but im not sure Eddie would.

Im sure he loved that first game and got into the spirit of it, but I suspect he'll be looking for far more structure this game.

At the risk of being labelled a contrarian ( I hope not, I hope my posts to date have been consistent enough in what I like) I really wouldn't love another game like that.

It's not my cup of tea tbh. I much preferred the Crusaders game in the morning because I felt it was much more intense.

Now, I may have been on my feet shouting at the TV when Solomona rounded that last man and we snatched it at the end. But I spent the rest of the game slumped in my chair exasperated at poor defence, the sloppiness and looseness of the contest and our inability to exert some sustained control over the game. That's not to say I didn't enjoy the game, there were plenty of bits of nice skill to applaud, but mostly I found it a frustrating viewing.

The Crusaders game on the other hand, I was on the edge of my seat for the entire game. Yes, there was some poor execution, and that's frustrating too, but It's different. That was more "ooh so close, we're nearly there". The frustration in the Argentina game was "oh for gods sake someone get a grip".

We all acknowledge that we needed FAR more control etc last week and should be looking for that this week, but with so many 1st choicers out and in all reality a meaningless game other than blooding a few kids....it was just nice to see two teams throwing caution to the wind and going for it. It was even nicer to see England grab a victory against a fairly strong Argentina side.

I suspect we will see a more controlled game from us this week, but in all honesty if it was another free flowing enjoyable game with the youngsters going out and enjoying themselves and showing they can open it up....then id be more than happy. We have plenty time when everyone comes back to resumed controlled rugby.

The frenetic style of play from England was especially surprising when both starting centres and Francis on the bench were second five-eighths. Those selections from Jones suggests he's looking at potential centres who can perform the same role Farrell has.

It was odd to then see those multiple kicking options not used to control field position.

The desire to move the ball wide quickly definitely worked in Slade's favour though. His distribution and decision making came through well.

It was 'harem scarem' stuff. It was also nice to see the young guys just make good passes, take good passes and run good lines

That was incredibly soft defence from Yarde

England are not the best defensively but my god they look good with ball in hand. Very enjoyable team to watch, as are Argentina which makes for great rugby.

Need the ref to stop the Argies screening their receiver fromEnglsnd restarts, and running from yards over half way at their own restarts.

GReat try

England are almost always assured of a score from a counterattack - they're getting like NZ in that regard.

Williams scrummages!
Brown passes!
Robshaw gets turnovers!

What a topsy turvy first half.

Mike Brown with two try assists and a couple of other passes as well! Must have read the criticism on here...

This game is beginning to break up a bit like last week. One team scores, then the other.

Our defence is hopelessly porous

The problem is George Ford is being targeted. They hit hi, get over the gainline and then attack in behind.

End to end stuff, a really good game but could somebody please tell me what it is Yarde's hair?

Got to love a rolling maul try to settle everything down!

This game is ridiculous.

That's a horrible tackle on Hughes

Hood83 wrote:Our defence is hopelessly porous

It definitely has been this tour. Near enough 60 points conceded, and we're not done yet. 70 scored though, so something's going right!

Ford's goal kicking has been good again today.

How is that not a card??? It was cynical and very dangerous.

Will Collier doesn't look like a test match player for where England want to get to, but he is rock solid in the scrum.

Second week in a row he's come on and dealt with a 15 second plus scrum and just held it.

That drop goal is brilliant. Didn't look set for it, the pass forced him to the left, but slotted it nicely and crucially gave us a 10 point cushion.

Are arms in the tackle optional for Argentine forwards? Not picked up all game...

That scrum. Wow.

Massive scrum.

Mullen has had a mighty hand in winning this game ...If we hold on.

Launchbury has been fantastic again. Cory Hill, good shout Gatland.

robbo277 wrote:Launchbury has been fantastic again. Cory Hill, good shout Gatland.

Ad Robshaw to that...

eirebilly wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Launchbury has been fantastic again. Cory Hill, good shout Gatland.

Ad Robshaw to that...

Senior players really stepped up today. Hartley and Brown better last week, Robshaw came back in strong, Launchbury and Ford quality across the 2 weeks.

EDIT: Add Care to the third group. Provided control across the series.

Those new Welsh Lions must be mighty good players when you see how some of those Gatland overlooked played tonight and last week.

eirebilly wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Launchbury has been fantastic again. Cory Hill, good shout Gatland.

Ad Robshaw to that...

Well, it certainly showed how to return to International rugby after 6 months off without needing three games to get up to speed.