England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

no 7 & 1/2 I know you really like Launchbury but Lawes and Itoje I would say are the current frontrunners.

Sorry misunderstood your stick with there beshocked. You'd change to that combo. So just the 4 changes to the pack albeit with Robshaw coming back into it after injury.

Sticking with the best 2nd rowers in England based on the Lions tour I should have said.

Putting in Lawes and Itoje isn't really what i'd call a change seeing as we've seen it on Lions tour but each to their own I guess!

If you see Lawes-Itoje as a risky 2nd row partnership compared to the reliable Launchbury fair enough....

All those changes don't need to happen at the same time.

Anything to keep Launchbury in the starting XV no?

I still remember when you wanted to start a crocked Launchbury vs Wales in 2016..... Was glad that day, Jones was in charge and not you!

I think Lawes is ahead of anyone at the moment...even with Maro playing to such a high level himself.

I have often been critical of Lawes, but at the moment he is playing some of the most complete forward rugby I have seen from a lock. Itoje is not far behind either.

Him and Itoje are truly in World class form. But they must be managed well, and given rest at the right times!

Hey Launchbury has been the guy in the england shirt and bets lock over the last year at least. Lawes still can't carry in traffic without spilling. And yes beshocked I'd have Launchbury in there as I think him and Itoje are the best we have now. What happened to you thinking the guy with the shirt and with the firm.keeping that shirt?

Launchbury has been better than Itoje the past year. Itoje has been good but a step back from how he was playing. Lawes the best though.

Scott. You been following the club games? I did enjoy Lawes knocking on twice the game after we discussed it!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Scott. You been following the club games? I did enjoy Lawes knocking on twice the game after we discussed it!

You see what you want to see I guess. Lawes was fantastic against Bath.

Tom Vickers: "COURTNEY LAWES

There are no superlatives left for this man as he continues to astound with imposing displays that put the opposition on the back foot - and keep them there... 9"

7&1/2: I enjoyed him knocking on as I expected.

Confirmation bias much?

no 7 & 1/2 Launchbury has only been playing because someone needed to cover the 6 shirt.

When England get a 6 back, it will be Lawes-Itoje.

First choice 2nd row is likely now Lawes-Itoje IMO.

Much more well rounded 2nd row combo.

Best lock has been Lawes and Itoje had a very strong Lions tour.

Both ahead of Launchbury at the moment IMO.

Well yes and no scott. I've said before on here that when we're discussing players vertainly for internationals but clubs as well we are comparing extremely good players. You very rarely get absolute donkeys at this level so you go to very small margins. I think all 4 of the locks we have are class acts. When comparing them.it comes down to tiny things. I said at the time that the thing which frustrates me about Lawes is his carrying, saying at the time he should be better but acknowledging commentators loving it, which I didn't understand. It was the knock ons which I pointed out specifically saying I hink it happens once or twice a game. So while yu may say it's confirmation bias it does prove the point somewhat.

Ill say as well its one of the reasons I never get too upset with a coaches choice either. I may disagree but I can acknowledge they're all bloody good players and unlikely to let anyone down.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well yes and no scott. I've said before on here that when we're discussing players vertainly for internationals but clubs as well we are comparing extremely good players. You very rarely get absolute donkeys at this level so you go to very small margins. I think all 4 of the locks we have are class acts. When comparing them.it comes down to tiny things. I said at the time that the thing which frustrates me about Lawes is his carrying, saying at the time he should be better but acknowledging commentators loving it, which I didn't understand. It was the knock ons which I pointed out specifically saying I hink it happens once or twice a game. So while yu may say it's confirmation bias it does prove the point somewhat.

You say it happened, I don't remember it. Just him 'leading by splendid example, rampaging around the pitch' (Telegraph) and having a 'blinder' (Guardian).

But I agree it would be hard to argue with any of them being selected.

So is it confirmation bias reversed to not see things! I still think at the moment it's them 3 though Kruis has a huge rep...just hasn't had the fitness to prove it since last year.

I think one of the big things since Eddie has come into the fold has been Lawes carrying improvements.

He'll never be a Billy V but, it has improved considerably considering how bad It used to be.

I think Itojes last two games have been absolutely top class aswell. Against us (in that Phili heat and humidity) the guy just didn't stop and was still playing as hard in the last minute as he was in the first. That's some going!

And in his last outing he was the same.

At the moment its Lawes and Itoje to start the AI's. But injuries can and do happen, loss of form etc.
Launchbury will be in the squad. Where is Kruis at the moment with his inury? Isiekwe is progressing nicely aswell.

Missed beshocked s posts there. Re Launchbury being dropped you're now.ignoring the point that I would have picked if fit. So no I wuldnt have picked.a.crocked.Launchbury. I also acknowledged on a thread at that time mentioning you by name that in doubt. Launchbury would have played as well as Itoje that day. When he dI'd put up a performance to match it against Wales later in the year you wrote it off as not an important game as you tend too when a player you don't prefer has a a stormer see above for Hartley.

Launchbury has been top notch outperformed Lawes both have been excellent though as they were when forming that partnership under Lancaster. Like.it or not Launchbury has the shirt at the moment. If you feel he's played.poorly enough to lose it...I don't know what games you've watched.

Yes because you seem to think inconsequential games have the same importance/weight as important games which is very odd.

Neither were important matches.

You hype up games that your favourites played well in as important when they weren't.


Launchbury has not outperformed Lawes.

Owning the shirt because others are busy playing for the Lions does not make you better.

It's not about Launchbury being bad, he's a good player - it's just Itoje and Lawes offer more and together would be superior.

I personally don't think you can drop either Lawes or Itoje. A year ago Lawes was in danger of being the 2nd row to miss out but now it's Kruis and Launchbury who are in danger.

Then of course you have the likes of Ewels and Isiekwe chasing those 4.


I haven't been a fan of Lawes in the past being I haven't liked his cheap shotting of smaller men on the pitch, but have to give credit, he's played very well in the last year.

beshocked wrote:Neither were important matches.

You hype up games that your favourites played well in as important when they weren't.

Whilst I agree with you in general I cant agree with that. You cant just say..."they were umimportant games."
You do have a tendancy to do that which I think it wrong.

But Launchbury is the guy with all the motm s. Bit again you write those off. Oh well like I said all 4 are good players I just ask for consistency when judging.

BBC podcast pointed out that a midfield of Ford, Farrell and Slade - potentially one Jones is looking at for the Autumn - is the one Lancaster fielded in his last match.

On different, note, Trinder looked good again this weekend, which has prompted some to ask whether there's any chance that some forgotten faces may make a late charge for the World Cup squad.

To some extent, as supporter on the sidelines, it's always much easier to find the energy to talk up a new face rather than someone who seems to be a perennial nearly man.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Neither were important matches.

You hype up games that your favourites played well in as important when they weren't.

Whilst I agree with you in general I cant agree with that. You cant just say..."they were umimportant games."
You do have a tendancy to do that which I think it wrong.

They were unimportant.

I don't know why you would want to elevate the importance.

It was not a 6 nations game, it was a warm up match with England missing quite a few players against Wales.

The match - Saracens vs Saints, Saracens didn't take it too seriously as they rested quite a few players plus it didn't have a significance on the league table.

Saracens vs Saints are generally serious affairs but not this one. Sure it was nice to snatch the win but there have been many more important games won and lost vs Saints.

no 7 & 1/2 Launchbury is a media darling. He got a motm in the loss to Australia for crying out loud! That was embarrassing.


Rugby fan the problem with perennial nearly men it's sometimes hard to look past their faults. At least with new faces, the flaws aren't yet out there in the open plus there is potential to improve.

I doubt for example Jones will see past T.Youngs' yips at lineout time, or Alex Goode's lack of physicality.

Whereas with current players at international level, Jones is happy to keep some players despite their flaws/limitations.

And he's quite simply an outstanding player as well beshocked. You've surely watched him a lot bar the sky matches so surely you're impressed. He was excellent thoughout the 6 nations but hey ho.

These AI s count in the not important bracket o assume so is that why you're looking for so many changes. Do you keep the same backline? You want a back line of Daly nowell and Watson I assume? Think I'd like to see Slade get a trot out. As I said it's now or never for him.

Depends what you look for. Launchbury still can't run a lineout and isn't a primary jumper but he's got a good engine, good workrate.
He is a good player, just lacks the versatility of Itoje or Lawes.


You cannot pick every single player!

Actually I think Road Runner deserves a run out.

Watson at 15 if fit
Nowell
Road Runner

That's the back three I'd pick if Watson is fit.

Well actually I'd like to see this vs Argentina.

1.Vunipola
2.George
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Itoje (c)
6.Robshaw
7.Underhill
8.Hughes

9.Care
10.Farrell
11.Road Runner
12.T'eo
13.Slade
14.Nowell
15.Watson

16.Genge
17.Hartley
18.Sinckler
19.Launchbury
20.Clifford
21.Youngs
22.Ford
23.Daly

Ypu know he has never run a lineout? Pretty sure he will have done but why do you need him to be if there is Itoje and Lawes in the same squad or even Kruis?

Road runner?

8/9 changes then. What does jones need to get wins wise in these unimportant games or is it a free reign?

1. Genge
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Lawes
6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell/Teo
13. JJ/Teo
14. Nowell
15. Watson

16. George 17. Mako 18. Sink 19. Launch 20. Underhill 21. Robson 22. Daly 23. Solom

I'd be happy with that. Haskell is coming back nicely and we need to give Underhill time to grow into the shirt.

Just seen this on the BBC. This will get a few fans going

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41407051

Beshocked , NO game against wales is unimportant !! Lets get that clear straight away.  

Secondly, why do you dismiss people's suggestions so matter of fact, half the time without seeing players even play!!? (Mark Wilson being a case in point..glad Eddie Jones is the England manager not you! ) Especially if it's the position a Saracens deity plays in. You have a lot of double standards.

Remember when Robinson had Itoje in his pocket...

geordiefalcon Perhaps to you, but it's not the 6 nations, it was a warm up game.

I actually thought Mark Wilson deserved to go to Argentina.

Not at all, if someone is playing well, I say fair enough, the problem is picking players not playing well!

Also I clearly have different view on who is playing well and who isn't.

That's why I will even change my opinion on players I initially disliked like Nowell. Nowell is a much improved player and have been impressed by that.

My opinions aren't set in stone.

no 7 & 1/2 most of these players have started for England before. Only Underhill is still relatively new and George hasn't started for England yet.

Not exactly that risky.

Think that much disruption could cause some issues and it tends to be harder to judge players when that many are in new combos etc. I acknowledge though you'd see no pressure on these games but I think jones will want to win them and there will be a fair few who.consider the games important. A few losses the pressure comes on.

And who is road runner?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think that much disruption could cause some issues and it tends to be harder to judge players when that many are in new combos etc. I acknowledge though you'd see no pressure on these games but I think jones will want to win them and there will be a fair few who.consider the games important. A few losses the pressure comes on.

And who is road runner?

May.

Oh of course! Ta scott. I assume that's supposed to be derogatory then rather than really fast and always better than his opposition.

geordiefalcon Perhaps to you, but it's not the 6 nations, it was a warm up game.

A full stadium would suggest otherwise....still important

I actually thought Mark Wilson deserved to go to Argentina.

Odd as you have argued against him being in the squad consistently, because he was UNPROVEN...

Not at all, if someone is playing well, I say fair enough, the problem is picking players not playing well!

You say fair enough if you like them. Players like Johnny May etc all play well but you still find points to criticise

Also I clearly have different view on who is playing well and who isn't.

Yes you do...you don't grasp that players can still perform well individually despite their team playing badly...

That's why I will even change my opinion on players I initially disliked like Nowell. Nowell is a much improved player and have been impressed by that.

Well done....you came round to what everyone else on this board was saying...hes a very good player!

My opinions aren't set in stone.

Generally they are!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think that much disruption could cause some issues and it tends to be harder to judge players when that many are in new combos etc. I acknowledge though you'd see no pressure on these games but I think jones will want to win them and there will be a fair few who.consider the games important. A few losses the pressure comes on.

And who is road runner?

I don't see much disruption there. You'd think the way you are talking that most of these players have never been on a rugby pitch together.

These are professional rugby players and though there will be some changes, they aren't as dramatic as you seem to think. There's a lot of experienced players there.

Look at my potential half back combo - both played together and over 100 caps between them.

You seriously think there is a danger of losing if we keep all 15 men on the pitch? We beat Argentina with 14 men! Road Runner put in a good performance that day and he is an AIs specialist.


Geordiefalcon in regards to Nowell. It's just his form his improved from poor to good. I gave May credit for a good Ais, still poor in the 6 nations though - it's why I call him an AIs specialist.

You had people defending May's poor 6 nations performances which is bizarre.

No, I do acknowledge players can play well in a poorly performing team, they should be able to shine. They should stand out. Unfortunately some players who haven't been standing out have been hyped up as standing out.

AI specialist! Heard it all now.

Yes there are a lot of new combos thoughout. Obviously you'd want them to play in a different way hence dropping Ford starting more ball carriers in the front row. Yes there's more of a risk moving away from a settled team. Straight up question do you see AI s as unimportant as there is nothing at stake?

As you don't watch the AI s I assume you're taking people's word on may playing well now!

Scottrf wrote:AI specialist! Heard it all now.

I genuinely can't think of any 6 nations game, May has actually played well in. He's been dropped at least twice because of this.

Most of May's fan club wax lyrical about his AIs performances - so AI specialist.

To be fair he played very well vs Argentina.


No 7 & 1/2 I don't watch every game but I see enough.

I just don't have the same fears that you do about my potential line up - it's not inexperienced, it's not unfamiliar players lining up. Sure there are some combinations that aren't established but fine tuning in the AIs is important.

It's utilising the overall squad in a different manner.

That's fine probably just don't comment on performances from games you haven't seen the entirety of. Same question though are these games important? Will we use these 3 games to write off players if they don't shine when given their chance? Or if they are unimportant what do we learn from starting george as it's a nothing game anyway.

Lucky that the RWC is in the Autumn then eh

I'm going to have a crack at my ideal team for argentina. I'm assuming the injured guys may be fit by then.

Marler hartley sinckler
Launchbury Itoje
Robshaw clifford Hughes
Youngs ford
Daly Farrell Joseph Nowell
Watson

Vunipola george Cole Lawes haskell care slade may

Just a quick question to English fans, do you feel that Farrell is better playing outright 10 or better playing 12 with Ford at 10?

I think Ford is more dynamic at 10 but only when he has that extra playmaker at 12 (Farrell).

Farrell, to me, is the more rounded 10 but needs a dynamic 9 inside him (Care).

For me, a very balanced and attacking backline for England would be :

09 : Care
10 : Farrell
11 : Nowell
12 : Daley
13 : Joseph
14 : Watson/May
15 : Malinder/Watson

Farrell is a better 10 than 12. Ford is class with or without but it's always better in general for me to have a 2nd playmaker somewhere in the backline. Whether that could be slade at 13.

Not sure Daly has ever played at 12, could work but I have my doubts. Mallinder is no where near ready. And Farrell plays very well for Saracens with the least dynamic 9 next to him.

There is just something about Daley that screams he could be a world class 12 7&1/2, he reminds me a little of Tim Horan.

Mallinder has very good aerial skills and a very good rugby brain which is why I think he would be good at 15 since I doubt he would oust Farrell or Ford at 10 in years to come.

Farrell has a lot more time at 10 for Sarries given their pack dominance but he is not afforded that at International which is why I think he needs a very dynamic 9 inside him to give him that little extra time.

Slade is a far better option at 12 than Daly.

The problem is none of our 12's yet are performing to the level required in the basics...and Owen Farrell does it superbly.

So until ANY of the young pretenders take that 12 spot by the goolies and make it their own...its going to be Ford and Farrell.

And don't forget Ford is a very very good player.

eirebilly wrote:Mallinder has very good aerial skills and a very good rugby brain

Hahahahaha

Ai's

9 Youngs / Spencer is playing well I think
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Chris Harris ... ok Id actually have Slade in there over Joseph
14 Nowell
15 Watson

I really do think we need to find a midfield juggernaut though...Manu's replacement essentially.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ai's

9 Youngs / Spencer is playing well I think
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Chris Harris     ... ok Id actually have Slade in there over Joseph
14 Nowell
15 Watson

I really do think we need to find a midfield juggernaut though...Manu's replacement essentially.

Te'o?

Still not sure on T'eo ...

You know watching Burrell playing some top stuff for your guys this season...id rather have him in. But at 13 not 12...I think he played better there for England.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Still not sure on T'eo ...

You know watching Burrell playing some top stuff for your guys this season...id rather have him in. But at 13 not 12...I think he played better there for England.

I think Horne has revitalised him. But it's early days yet.

He looks better than he has for a long time that's for sure.

Wheres our supersized backs these days....wheres our Nonu, or our Inga Tuigamala, or Alesana Tuilagi??

We seem to just producing very lightweight, skilled pace players.

I think putting Daly in at 12 you'd be limiting his biggest asset, which is his searing pace and the ability to make that outside break from 13, or take on a winger on the outside as we saw to great effect against Cuthbert and Wales

He's not the biggest centre, and putting him in the heavy traffic of the 10-12 channel is probably asking too much of him defensively

He isn't the strongest at head on tackling, but his pace means he can show attackers the outside and make technically sound tackles around the legs to bring them down

I'd start Watson at FB, Daly at wing and let May/Nowell fight it out for the other wing spot

Do you England fans see Mallinder as an out and out 10? I think he would make a good 15.