England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Monye is an awful commentator though. Not sure I'd take his comments too seriously.


True Cumbrian

Farrell is 25, Ford 24, Losowski 24.

Slade is 24.

Fly half is a pretty strong position.

Calling our Marcus Smith is probably 50% Eddie putting a bit of pressure on his existing group ("There's someone even younger and fresher than you, so stay on your toes"), 40% longer term player development and 10% an outside option.

From what I saw, Smith was more like a young George Ford than a young Cipriani - albeit more prepared to take on the attack himself. Some of his distribution, particularly the long passes and reverse passes, was very good, and the way he and Roberts straightened the line for Marchant's try was simple as you like but showed that he's enough of a running threat to challenge defences. He looks to have a good eye for where the space is and no fears about attacking it when it might be on.

His defensive positioning wasn't great and he's got to improve his tackle technique (though I liked his willingness to get stuck in).

The point being that Smith is a more direct replacement for Ford than Farrell, Lozowski or Slade would be. For all that he wants a bench that will change things up, Eddie seems to like having like-for-like replacements in the wings, and I think Smith fits the bill.

Sounds about right Poorfour, Smith is a long way down on the development pathway - I would really like to see him boss the U20s and get a bit of time off the bench for Quins - perhaps a couple of years off the level of hype that hes recently been getting. Young(er) Ford in the making.

So, after round 1 who do we think has raised and lowered their rating for EPS selection?
From Quins - most of the senior players didn't step up - Barring 1 break from Care (which made me think the old Danny was back) he wasn't particularly effective. A stellar showing from Robson surely means that EJ will be thinking of an order shuffle in the no9's.
Brown unfortunately didn't have a vintage performance! Was good aerially but well marshalled by defence - same can be said of Yarde, fairly ineffective (barring his try).

Tom Wood had a torrid first half against sarries but clawed some credit back with 2 tries - but that was after Sarries had scored a bucket load. Mallinder struggled to get any control too.

Game from Friday (TV) - From Gloucester, I thought Slater coming on late made a good impact Kvesic was keen to make an impact and got a few good turnovers + seemed to carry more than before. Pack looks well settled. Chiefs - Nowell looked dangerous when he came on. Harry Williams struggled a bit with scrimmaging. Slade struggled a bit, but was playing 13 rather than 12.

From what I have read - May has had a good game and sounds like Genge was getting a bit feisty. Not seen the highlights yet but its a positive that Manu came through un-injured, well marshalled by Joseph though and that Ford had a so-so game!

The tiger fans gave just said many is out for 12 weeks. That rules him out of any potential ai appearance...

Joseph and marchant battling for 13? If it's T'eo he's going to have to find his form...he was woeful on Friday.

https://www.leicestertigers.com/news/unlucky-tuilagi-sidelined-by-knee-injury

All things come to pass.

Think it's only a matter of time before Manu retires now. Just too many injuries.

That's a shame - he either retires or moves to another club with a fresh start.
Worked wonders for a crocked Wilko.

Sounds really unfortunate and a real shame. Some players just seem destined for a run of prolonged bad luck. Just sucks as Tuilagi is a player of such impact.

It's not as if its the same problem, every time he gets crocked, it's something different. He must be one of the unluckiest players around

Is Lawes performances now making him a cert for a starting lock spot in the AI's (if he keeps up the form)

propdavid_london wrote:That's a shame - he either retires or moves to another club with a fresh start.
Worked wonders for a crocked Wilko.

He came very close to going to France as some of his brotehrs did before him when it was looking like his England future was bunked. Who knows come the end of this season; its hugely unlikey he will get selected for the 6 nations squads even if he does get fit in time to press a case.... and if theres not a summer tour spot likely I think theres a very good chance he will go (if fit). Thye biggest things stopping him would be that with every injury and with the amount of time hes missed form the game his stock has shrunk, and getting a big money contract isnt a given...it would certainly be a risk for any club taking him. And then being away form his family and support network would be a big thing. The issues hes had with coping with the long lay offs are pretty well known, and hardly surprising for a guy whos entire upbringing has been about becoming a pro rugby player. In Leicestershire he has a big extended family around him, and a confortable supportive club environment. Hes been there since he was a schoolkid, and for someone like him it would be a huge risk to move away from that.

If he can't string some games together in the second half of the season then Japan could even be a good option for him. Less physical, big payday and a complete change of climate and mindset.

Manu's off-field issues show that he clearly has demons to deal with outside of his injuries - although they are more than likely connected to his frustration at not playing.

The injuries being different problems every time is so unfortunate though. To go through first a year long rehab of a very rare groin problem, only to have 9 months out for an ACL, rehab that and now blow out the other knee. Very unlucky however you spin it.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Lawes performances now making him a cert for a starting lock spot in the AI's (if he keeps up the form)

In my opinion, on current and Lions form, he is the best lock in the NH at the moment. I don't see too much of the SH games, but he must be getting up there with the likes of Retallick. He doesn't seem to have a flaw in his game at the moment.

I agree WPI

I've often been critical of him but I just can't fault him now. England have genuine selection dilemma at lock!

GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree WPI

I've often been critical of him but I just can't fault him now. England have genuine selection dilemma at lock!

Whether you agree with it or not Eddie Jones will again be tempted to play one of our locks at 6 for the Autumn Internationals purely because they are all genuinely playing well. Either Lawes or Itoje could play there. The alternative options are Robshaw, Wood, Armand etc but he might think the 3 lock option offers more?

Launchbury was the best lock for England last season. Lawes probably the form lock based on lions and thus season but wasn't favoured by gatland. Itoje is clearly extremely good but shunted as a trial to 6 which wasn't that successful. Kruis was hailed as the best lock but hasn't really been that good since returning from injury and got injured first up, not seen how long he's out for. Will be interesting to see if Jones goes with favouring who had the shirt, club form or just if he rates the player with neither of the above.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Launchbury was the best lock for England last season. Lawes probably the form lock based on lions and thus season but wasn't favoured by gatland. Itoje is clearly extremely good but shunted as a trial to 6 which wasn't that successful.  Kruis was hailed as the best lock but hasn't really been that good since returning from injury and got injured first up, not seen how long he's out for. Will be interesting to see if Jones goes with favouring who had the shirt, club form or just if he rates the player with  neither of the above.

Lawes was. He was playing excellent rugby while Launchbury was banned for kicking, and roughly as good in the 6 Nations. Just takes Lawes a long time to get credit, barely anyone noticed he had an amazing season for Saints last year until a few England performances.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The tiger fans gave just said many is out for 12 weeks. That rules him out of any potential ai appearance...

Joseph and marchant battling  for 13? If it's T'eo he's going to have to find his form...he was woeful on Friday.

I would rather have Daly in at 13. However, I can see EJs keeping him as a bench option because of his versatility.

Daly defence isn't at the level to play Int 13, doubt it ever will be tbh.

Nah Launchbury ahead just look at the amount of motm s. Lawes is decent and in good form but he'd be the back up for me. It's England's strongest position and any of the 4 would be first choice for the other nations bar jonny grey for Scotland and jones cos of Gatland for wales. I think it's going to be someone with Itoje anyway.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nah Launchbury ahead just look at the amount of motm s. Lawes is decent and in good form but he'd be the back up for me. It's England's strongest position and any of the 4 would be first choice for the other nations bar jonny grey for Scotland and jones cos of Gatland for wales. I think it's going to be someone with Itoje anyway.

Especially if Itoje is Captain, though I don't see that happening this year.

Re Lawes, it is tremendous to observe his level of performance especially given the robust way he plays the game. Ofcourse everything comes at a cost and at some point he'll have to be rested before he breaks down. I wonder if EJ has him marked as a autumn release? I doubt it but if not then, then Saints will need to protect him which doesn't appear to be their current modus, unless they know something we don't.

Could happen but I'd still be surprised should hartley be dropped. Due to the lions he still has the jump on george. How long is Kruis out for?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could happen but I'd still be surprised should hartley be dropped. Due to the lions he still has the jump on george. How long is Kruis out for?

George is not really relevant to Hartley's position. In modern rugby both the starting hooker and the bench player are going to play for about half the match. Both Harley and George will play with George better suited than Hartley to the second half when the game is typically looser. Hartley will lose his place when a third hooker is considered good enough. Not Youngs, possibly LCD?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nah Launchbury ahead just look at the amount of motm s. Lawes is decent and in good form but he'd be the back up for me. It's England's strongest position and any of the 4 would be first choice for the other nations bar jonny grey for Scotland and jones cos of Gatland for wales. I think it's going to be someone with Itoje anyway.

MOTM is just an opinion, and Lawes was roughly a similar level in those matches, better in others and more consistent in general (and didn't get banned).

I agree exiled. Think it will be LCD this season. Just considering the change of captain; while hartley is there it won't change.

So it comes to point scott that you rate Lawes more I rate Launchbury more. Lawes is frustrating for me especially his carrying which is getting praised to high heaven on commentary yet he's still.pretty consistently loosing in contact once or twice a match. With Itoje calling I think getting him and Launchbury is the best partnership. Kruis offers the best bench option if he is fit and on form neither of which he had on the lions tour or so far this year.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I agree exiled. Think it will be LCD this season. Just considering the change of captain; while hartley is there it won't change.

So it comes to point scott that you rate Lawes more I rate Launchbury more. Lawes is frustrating for me especially his carrying which is getting praised to high heaven on commentary yet he's still.pretty consistently loosing in contact once or twice a match. With Itoje calling I think getting him and Launchbury is the best partnership. Kruis offers the best bench option if he is fit and on form neither of which he had on the lions tour or so far this year.

Real nonsense. Once every 3 matches maybe. Lawes has more impact in mauls, is a better lineout receiver, better carrier in the loose (Launch better in tight) and puts more pressure on the opposition defensively (Launch is a good tackler though).

Not nonsense. Just what happens. I'd agree Lawes is better in the lineout. Together they're a great combo. I think I combo of Launchbury and Itoje could go onto to be the best pairing in the world even considering the kiwis. Lawes Itoje would work.just not quite as complimentary. Kruis I'm currently not considering though by the AI s he may be back. For me it's a choice out of Itoje and Lawes to partner the guy who fits them the best. Itoje is better now in my opinion and still improving.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not nonsense. Just what happens. I'd agree Lawes is better in the lineout. Together they're a great combo. I think I combo of Launchbury and Itoje could go onto to be the best pairing in the world even considering the kiwis. Lawes Itoje would work.just not quite as complimentary. Kruis I'm currently not considering though by the AI s he may be back. For me it's a choice out of Itoje and Lawes to partner the guy who fits them the best. Itoje is better now in my opinion and still improving.

It doesn't. Perhaps it used to, but he's tightened up his carrying, which will always be hard with his frame. Agree about Itoje's potential. But recent form, no he is not better.

Maybe in the first 2 games of this season. Lions and last season I'd have to disagree. Though they should have started together in the summer. Would you go Launchbury and Lawes then Itoje on bench?

All of top 4 locks offer something a bit different, it's really horses for courses when comparing. It's up to EJ to select the best combo who compliment each other, not an easy task.

For me, Kruis is the best lineout operator(defence and offence) and he'd have to start if fit and available.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Maybe in the first 2 games of this season. Lions and last season I'd have to disagree. Though they should have started together in the summer. Would you go Launchbury and Lawes then Itoje on bench?

Itoje was average for Lions, Lawes was better. Who I would pick I don't know if I'm honest. Kruis/Itoje if both are firing. Right now, maybe Launch and Lawes yes.

You like Lawes don't you!

England are exceptionally well stocked at 2nd row - The selection pool is Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis and Itoje. Isekwe who did pretty well in Argentina appears to be the latest backup/project.
You would generally be happy with any combination of the above and can select depending on game plan/requirements.
Currently due to injury, Kruis is the most likely to drop out of that group - but he still has plenty of EJ credit in the bank.

As ever - England are still looking for long term replacements for the old back row guard. That's where the focus really needs to be - most other positions have relative strength in depth.

Pretty sure the usual injury massacre in the first round of Euro games will have a part to play in this

I think who is picked at lock depends on how the back row lads are performing. If Robshaw and Haskell are pulling up trees then they will start and two locks will be chosen from the 4 outstanding candidates...assuming Barrow or some other outsider doesn't come in to contention.

If they're not performing and Jones isn't convinced by the other options at 6/7 then you may very well see the lawes and itoje selection again with Maro at lock for the scrum and Lawes at 6

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think who is picked at lock depends on how the back row lads are performing

Think this is the heart of the matter. The laws have changed too, so the balance in the back row might have shifted for Jones. Still, like Lancaster, he has favoured putting as many of his best players out at the same time, regardless of regular club position. Daly is the main example but he has Slade in mind at 13. Can't rule out the idea he'd want three locks on the pitch.

Kruis and Itoje looked like our best pairing last season, and I don't think the Lions tour disproved that, even though it wasn't Gatland's test combination. Main issue seems to be the fitness of Kruis.

Can someone remind me of the rule changes for the breakdown? I assume that's what you are referring to RugbyFan when you think the balance should change in the backrow?

propdavid_london wrote:Can someone remind me of the rule changes for the breakdown?  I assume that's what you are referring to RugbyFan when you think the balance should change in the backrow?

Basically you can't just stand up and jackal if you're the tackler.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think who is picked at lock depends on how the back row lads are performing

Think this is the heart of the matter. The laws have changed too, so the balance in the back row might have shifted for Jones. Still, like Lancaster, he has favoured putting as many of his best players out at the same time, regardless of regular club position. Daly is the main example but he has Slade in mind at 13. Can't rule out the idea he'd want three locks on the pitch.

Kruis and Itoje looked like our best pairing last season, and I don't think the Lions tour disproved that, even though it wasn't Gatland's test combination. Main issue seems to be the fitness of Kruis.

I'm really not convinced that Eddie will play a lock at 6 just to accommodate them all. He might if the rules have changed sufficiently that he's going for a completely different breakdown strategy, but from what I have seen so far this season I don't think that's the case. The changes have made it slightly harder for genuine poachers, but from the games I have seen so far the winning strategy seems to be to hit the rucks fast and hard again and again, which we saw with the Itoje experiment doesn't lend itself to having a lock in that role.

Mark Wilson showed in Argentina that he can do the job, and with Underhill (who can play 6), both Curries plus Robshaw and Haskell, my thinking is that he will play proper flankers rather than squeeze in an extra lock.

RF, my memory tells me that it was Launchbury and Lawes at the last 6N with Itoje at 6 and then were both (L & L) outstanding.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:RF, my memory tells me that it was Launchbury and Lawes at the last 6N with Itoje at 6 and then were both (L & L) outstanding.

I'm going senile. I thought they played the Autumn internationals as a pair, before Kruis missed out on the Six Nations but not so.

At the risk of going around in circles, Robshaw will play if he shows form and fitness. Haskell probably won't unless he's really ripping things up.

With Robshaw injured and the next generation either injured or unproven EJ went with Itoje at 6 because he could 'do a job' and having him on the pitch is always a good idea. This year will be very interesting because the next generation now has experience and (mostly) looked pretty good.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:RF, my memory tells me that it was Launchbury and Lawes at the last 6N with Itoje at 6 and then were both (L & L) outstanding.

Itoje had a six on his back but was in the second row in the scrum. In reality Lawes was playing at six.

Eddie has so far always picked Robshaw when he's available - he even spoke about him having had "no chance of playing" in the second Argentina test, but he came through injury rehab and got picked.

On the other hand, it's a pretty easy autumn schedule, so he may choose to give youth more experience and his senior players a rest. We'll have to see.

Exiledinborders wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:RF, my memory tells me that it was Launchbury and Lawes at the last 6N with Itoje at 6 and then were both (L & L) outstanding.

Itoje had a six on his back but was in the second row in the scrum. In reality Lawes was playing at six.

Lawes explained that he, post 6N. Itoje is so powerful in the scrum that it seemed "daft" not to use that power, but in all other aspects he played as a 6. So for about 8 minutes a game he played at 5 and for the rest as a 6.

Is there much difference between a lock and a 6 outside of the scrum these days?

They both were effective as 4/5/6 whatever they were, so fine by me!

BamBam wrote:Is there much difference between a lock and a 6 outside of the scrum these days?

They both were effective as 4/5/6 whatever they were, so fine by me!

With players like Lawes and Itoje, probably not, Kruis, Slater and the like, quite a lot

Poorfour wrote:Eddie has so far always picked Robshaw when he's available - he even spoke about him having had "no chance of playing" in the second Argentina test, but he came through injury rehab and got picked.

On the other hand, it's a pretty easy autumn schedule, so he may choose to give youth more experience and his senior players a rest. We'll have to see.

You mention a key factor there poorfour the schedule is not a tough one. Players like Mark Wilson , Curry , and maby ither fringe youngsters would relish the games.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

BamBam wrote:Is there much difference between a lock and a 6 outside of the scrum these days?

They both were effective as 4/5/6 whatever they were, so fine by me!

With players like Lawes and Itoje, probably not, Kruis, Slater and the like, quite a lot

I think the game against Ireland showed the difference. England were a fraction slower to the breakdown, and it cost them. It wasn't enough of a difference against France or Wales, but the strongest teams can exploit that weakness.

Locks and flankers train a little differently and have different physical characteristics. I find it ironic that sites where people want a specialist 7 regard 6 as so unspecialised.

Underhill's 1st prem game for Bath this weekend will be an interesting watch.
We have seen glimpses of what he can offer but with little consistency at the moment - starting his season with a Bang may well put him into contention with EJ.