England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Im still not sold on Daly as a winger.

For me he's a 13 or 15. But I think Jones likes his skills set and is using the Australian backline theory that no player has a position they all just merge and play in any position, its the skills that matter.

I see Mallinder as a 12...

As a play making 12 outside Farrell or Ford Geordie?

He needs to improve his physicality, defence, intelligence etc for Saints before he's even thought of for England.

eirebilly wrote: Do you England fans see Mallinder as an out and out 10? I think he would make a good 15.

He's not a 10. Decision making too poor. Also not an accurate enough kicker so you'd need someone else on the park to cover. Out of hand kicking is poor too (distance aside).

Could potentially be a FB, but wouldn't be the fastest and I'd question his defence when a missed tackle = a try. He did recently say he wants to be a FB.

If I'm being brutally honest I'm sceptical over whether he'll play under Eddie Jones.

Scottrf wrote:

eirebilly wrote: Do you England fans see Mallinder as an out and out 10? I think he would make a good 15.

He's not a 10. Decision making too poor. Also not an accurate enough kicker so you'd need someone else on the park to cover. Out of hand kicking is poor too (distance aside).

Could potentially be a FB, but wouldn't be the fastest and I'd question his defence when a missed tackle = a try. He did recently say he wants to be a FB.

Fair enough, I have honestly really only seen highlight reels of him (in which he looked very good) so I have probably missed the full picture of his game abilities.

eirebilly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

eirebilly wrote: Do you England fans see Mallinder as an out and out 10? I think he would make a good 15.

He's not a 10. Decision making too poor. Also not an accurate enough kicker so you'd need someone else on the park to cover. Out of hand kicking is poor too (distance aside).

Could potentially be a FB, but wouldn't be the fastest and I'd question his defence when a missed tackle = a try. He did recently say he wants to be a FB.

Fair enough, I have honestly really only seen highlight reels of him (in which he looked very good) so I have probably missed the full picture of his game abilities.

He's obviously got talent, but for me he makes a lot of mistakes for Prem level (and is a victim of versatility) so I think England shouts are very premature.

I am just a big believer in preparing for the future and I believe that Mallinder has what it takes to be an England International so feel that he could do well by being in and around the England squad.

Yeah. He's only just turned 21 so I'm being overly harsh. We'll see what Jones does.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im still not sold on Daly as a winger.

For me he's a 13 or 15. But I think Jones likes his skills set and is using the Australian backline theory that no player has a position they all just merge and play in any position, its the skills that matter.

Yea I agree with that theory

Is he one of the 4 best options we have at 13/wing/15 - for me yes (Watson, JJ, Daly in that order then May/Nowell/Teo/Brown all in with a shout)

So I'd get him on the field somewhere, its just where

BamBam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im still not sold on Daly as a winger.

For me he's a 13 or 15. But I think Jones likes his skills set and is using the Australian backline theory that no player has a position they all just merge and play in any position, its the skills that matter.

Yea I agree with that theory

Is he one of the 4 best options we have at 13/wing/15 - for me yes (Watson, JJ, Daly in that order then May/Nowell/Teo/Brown all in with a shout)

So I'd get him on the field somewhere, its just where

Fullback for me.

I know Watson's preferred position is at full back but I'd prefer Daly's boot there. At international level I'm not sold on Daly as a 13. I don't think he has the step needed for those tight positions you find in the midfield, and even on the wing when it gets tight. I do very much like the idea of him running onto the ball at pace from fullback. Overall though, I'm happy to see him in the team and make use of Eddie's Australian approach, he's a really good player.

I think Dalys actually skill set is much more suited to FB than Watsons is...but Watson is seen as the "strike runner" from FB.

In all honesty I'd be happy with Daly at FB and Watson at 14

Wing and FB are pretty much the same position these days..ie they all need the same skills set.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Dalys actually skill set is much more suited to FB than Watsons is...but Watson is seen as the "strike runner" from FB.

In all honesty I'd be happy with Daly at FB and Watson at 14

Wing and FB are pretty much the same position these days..ie they all need the same skills set.

Much will depend on the game plan I suppose, and a lot of the skills are transferable. I just think if you were to list England's wing and 13 options, Daly is one of the least effective in traffic (and that's not to say he's bad at it, I just think it's not a particular strength of his game. You certainly get less traffic playing at fullback, the metres made stats are nearly always dominated by fullbacks, most likely returning kicks.

Watson - Great feet and really explosive off the mark.
May - Probably the quickest back we have and for my money certainly has a better step than Daly which helps him out.
Nowell - His footwork is good, and though he might not have the speed to skirt round a defender in tight spaces, he is strong enough to consistently win the gainline.
Joseph - His step is up there with Watson's, for me. Also he's lightning (Watson reckons JJ beats him over 60 in training). But to add to that he's also strong enough to win the collision. I feel this is often overlooked as a strength of his, particularly for the Lions this summer he mopped up sloppy ball time and time again. It's not eye catching, but it's really effective.

Mallinder. He has a good skill set and he's huge. When I saw him play in a U20 game (JWC) vs Scotland he was the tallest guy on the pitch.

The size thing seems to be the main reason why he generates excitement, but he doesn't seem to have moved on yet, and his positional versatility doesn't seem to be helping his actual development.

Still maybe one for the future but so far he's very much 36 mk II

eirebilly wrote: Do you England fans see Mallinder as an out and out 10? I think he would make a good 15.

Looking at what Mallinder has had to say for himself, he would agree with you. He is playing 10 as both Saints senior 10s are crocked. The same happened at the U20 RWC, 10 got injured and Prince Harry stepped in. Looked brilliant in that environment, but not at AP level.

He was saying that he skill set is better suited to 15 where he has space and can see what is happening better. With Burrell and Horne playing so well, Stephenson to come into contention (is he crocked again) the 12 shirt will be hard to hold down unless a second playmaker is required, Burrell does not fill that role.

I suspect he is going to do a bit of bench filling over the next few months due to his flexibility.

It'd probably be better for him to be benched and come on in his preferred position against tired players. Then keep starting at 10 against fresh players who target him, he seems to really be struggling with all the game management and positioning at 10.

yappysnap wrote:It'd probably be better for him to be benched and come on in his preferred position against tired players. Then keep starting at 10 against fresh players who target him, he seems to really be struggling with all the game management and positioning at 10.

He can't while our first two 10s are injured though.

On the 10/12 thing, I agree with eirebilly. Farrell is very much in the Wilkinson mould - a superb executor but plays better with a creative player alongside him. In the current setup, that could conceivably be:

10. Ford 12. Farrell - we know this works, but you have to cover for Ford defensively

9. Care 10. Farrell - we also know this works, but in the past Care's kicking has meant it's only an option when Youngs isn't fit or in form. Care seems to have improved his kicking now, so it will be interesting to see if Eddie tries it this autumn

10. Farrell 12. Slade - untried, and I know Slade tends to focus on 13 these days but physically he's similar to Farrell and Farrell wasn't seen as a 12 until England started winning with him there

10. Farrell 12. Te'o 13. Slade - perhaps the most likely option given the training squad. It has shades of Wilko / Tindall / Greenwood (though I know Tindall mainly lined up at OC)

10. Ford 12. Farrell 13. Slade - unusual these days to have three playmakers, but then Wilko / Catt / Greenwood was a pretty successful combination.

10. Smith 12. Farrell - too soon. Much too soon. But I would love a situation where Ford and Smith are genuinely competing for that 10 shirt.

It is strange that we seem to have a number of viable options at 10 at 13, whereas we seem to struggle at 12. Likewise in the forwards we have plenty at 4 and 5, but struggle for a 7. Perhaps the RFU need to do more work with the clubs (£££) to ensure that England qualified players are getting opportunities in these troublesome positions, rather than the clubs rushing out for past it/never quite good enough southern hemisphere players.

For all the criticism Farrell gets, he was good enough to play there for the Lions so is arguably the best 12 in the home nations. So should be good enough for England.

nlpnlp 7 and 12 aren't new problem positions. I'd say it's been like that for years.

Mallinder who many would hope can fill the 12 shirt is being played at 10.


Poorfour A Ford/Farrell/Slade lacks physicality. That's a big problem IMO.

Does slade lack physicality any more than Joseph? I'd say he actually carries a bit harder or can and hits a whole load harder in the tackle. You lose a lot of pace with that. Playing slade you could also slot on te'o as well. So many options as always.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Does slade lack physicality any more than Joseph? I'd say he actually carries a bit harder or can and hits a whole load harder in the tackle. You lose a lot of pace with that. Playing slade you could also slot on te'o as well. So many options as always.

I am not sure I would agree that Farrell lacks physicality, he may lack a few pounds ( well stones against some 12's) but he hits with everything he has.

Never mentioned Farrell, just went for the straight swap of Joseph and slade in that swap. Slade for Farrell is pretty similar though.

We do have 7's it's just they aren't the traditional 7 everyone thinks a 7 should be.

Will welch has been outstanding for us this season and the last few but I would say he plays more in a 6 role as does Mark Wilson . Dean likes two alround flankers as do many teams in the premier.

So it seems 1 of the prop questions is sorted then...

Have to say underhill and mercer looked very good together. Another 6 option who offers a tonne of class to go with a high work rate.

Do you mean Sinkler 7.5? Yeah could be missing a while if found guilty.

Yeah. Only seen it on my phone which didn't look bad but reading others accounts it sounds like he's on the sideline for a fair old while.

Well I have to say I thought it was nothing...but its the fact he puts his hands back a second time that is the bad part. He ripped the cap off..which is daft, then puts his hand back down. He'll get a ban no doubt.

But my question is....WHY do that. He's a professional rugby player...he knows the cameras are watching everything now...every little thing is caught...utter stupidity.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well I have to say I thought it was nothing...but its the fact he puts his hands back a second time that is the bad part. He ripped the cap off..which is daft, then puts his hand back down. He'll get a ban no doubt.

But my question is....WHY do that. He's a professional rugby player...he knows the cameras are watching everything now...every little thing is caught...utter stupidity.

Did you see the game? He has an aggression problem.

I didn't see the Bath game...what did Underhill and Mercer do that impressed?

Is Underhill starting to show what the hype was about. He looks a strong fella mind. Will he be starting 7 in the AI's?

Scottrf wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well I have to say I thought it was nothing...but its the fact he puts his hands back a second time that is the bad part. He ripped the cap off..which is daft, then puts his hand back down. He'll get a ban no doubt.

But my question is....WHY do that. He's a professional rugby player...he knows the cameras are watching everything now...every little thing is caught...utter stupidity.

Did you see the game? He has an aggression problem.

No I didn't see the game. Theres a difference between aggression and down right dirty play.

I want players who are aggressive...I don't want player who are dirty.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well I have to say I thought it was nothing...but its the fact he puts his hands back a second time that is the bad part. He ripped the cap off..which is daft, then puts his hand back down. He'll get a ban no doubt.

But my question is....WHY do that. He's a professional rugby player...he knows the cameras are watching everything now...every little thing is caught...utter stupidity.

Did you see the game? He has an aggression problem.

No I didn't see the game. Theres a difference between aggression and down right dirty play.

I want players who are aggressive...I don't want player who are dirty.

I think he tried to start at fight 4 times? It's excessive.

Really...ok yes a tad over the top in that case.

Their natural games just seem to compliment each other so well. Already thinking them 2 and Vunipola would be some back row. Mercer is still some way off from England but hope he can progress. Really good carrier but always looking for space and the pass. Really carried on from the u20s. Underhill just offers incredible work rate and a great defence. Think he sill needs to work on his carrying but then this was a game where he just needed to tackle his heart out. Them 2 finished top 2 tacklers which is unsurprising given was possession. They were a step above wasps back row for me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Their natural games just seem to compliment each other so well. Already thinking them 2 and Vunipola would be some back row. Mercer is still some way off from England but hope he can progress. Really good carrier but always looking for space and the pass. Really carried on from the u20s. Underhill just offers incredible work rate and a great defence. Think he sill needs to work on his carrying but then this was a game where he just needed to tackle his heart out. Them 2 finished top 2 tacklers which is unsurprising given was possession. They were a step above wasps back row for me.

Is that any different to what Will Welch is doing this season and has been for the last few seasons....yet he's not remotely linked with a possible England call up...

To me he just looks better than welch. Just a bit more class. And younger so has more scope for improvement. I'm sure some would disagree but I think he's next off the rank for openside.

Given his very evident leadership qualities I think Mercer must be in with a good shout of being a FEC, but would expect this to be post 2019.

No 7&1/2 wrote:To me he just looks better than welch. Just a bit more class. And younger so has more scope for improvement. I'm sure some would disagree but I think he's next off the rank for openside.

Well age certainly comes in to play I agree. I expect him to start at 7 in the AI's to be honest...if hes fit of course.

Assuming that Sinks is going to get a bit of a ban, its safe to assume that he wont be involved with Nov tests.....That being the case who is likely to be the backup/bench/finisher option for Tighthead? Collier did well in Argentina but hasn't played much for Quins.
Is Harry Williams a loosehead or tight? Anyone else worth coming in?

With Billy V out and the possible scare of a 'Hughes' injury on Sunday there was a bit of squeaky bum moment! Clifford has been called up to cover Billy, but I am not convinced he would be ready to start at no.8!
Is anyone else pulling up trees @ no.8?

Sinckler wasn't in the training squad anyway.

Surely the actual training squad is irrelevant as theres loads of names not in it.

Well its either play a fringe 8....Temeina Harrison...Clifford.

Or get a flanker to move across....Haskell to 8? Mark Wilson to 8?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely the actual training squad is irrelevant as theres loads of names not in it.

The other big names left out have no form.

Yeah would suspect that sinckler would have been or may still be in the AI full squad. Clifford has been fantastic so far this season he's a different sort of 8 obviously but has a big chance this set of games. Has been playing 7 as well. other than that I'm not sure of simmonds fitness but for me a touch early for him. Haskell to 8 is the other option.

Scottrf wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely the actual training squad is irrelevant as theres loads of names not in it.

The other big names left out have no form.

That's never been an issue in previous Jones selections. He picks the players he wants for his system...regardless for form for club.

Just reminding myself of the squad looks like sinckler was there.

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-names-england-training-squad-for-august-camp/

Different camp

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/09/22/marcus-smith-named-33-man-england-training-squad-eddie-jones/

I wouldn't take any notice of the training squad make up.

Eddie has said he will rest many of the lions (which I hope he actually does) and most of the Summer tour guys will play this AI. Theres many of that tour not in this training squad.

The training squads are literally that.. a blend of senior players, fringe players and youth players all at different stages of their carreer to have a look at them and check their training plans are correct etc. Hence why its not always only first choice players...and why lots are missing for the various meet ups.

Ah cheers scott. Haskell Joseph and sinckler weren't included in this one. Still don't think think any would.not be in the AI s especially now for haskell.

Eddie brings in people that he wants to talk to or wants to assess or try something new with.....I interpreted Sinklers absence from the list as in EJ knows what he needs to know about Sinks - not that he wasn't going to select him.
Now its a different matter - intentional or not Sinkler is looking at a probable ban. Someone has to come in and be effective off the bench!