Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

First topic message reminder :

Vunipola 40
George 17 (0 starts)
Furong 16
AWJ 110
Kruis 20

Itoje 12

What is the obvious stat here capwise that without AWJ the lions don't have? jesus that kiwi tight5 average 70 plus each don't they?!?! How can anyone not view our tight 5 as massively inexperienced. Mako Vunipola I still classed as inexperienced and he'd have to lead!!! with this being Georges first ever test start also.

I think George starting is a massive call, one I understand, I personally would've gone for Owens but hey, off the bench he's a great option. George will need experience around him, he needs a cool head who's seen everything before, and I think Sinckler is a victim of Georges selection, had Owens started I think Sinckler would have also.

Very few people seem to rate AWJ, he has been lauded the best lock in the world recently, until Howley got his hands on the team and created another horror show, most people were considering AWJ, Itoje and Jonny Grey as test starters (Istill don'T understand Greys exclusion but hey).

The AWJ is a non issue, he's good enough, he's needed far more than any other player we have, let alone forward, let alone lock.

My worry is points left on the park, and Gatlands selection of players who are still in recovery from FULL 80 MINUTES!!!!!

There are too many question marks around starters for me to feel comfortable...

Georges lack of experience,
Front row combination looks unbalanced,
Back row combo looks unbalanced,
Inexperienced captain,
Farrells lack of game time at 10 on the highest stage, and injury
Teo's inability to do anything but act like Jamie Roberts
Davies's fitness
both wingers defencive capabilities (although Watsons less so)
Kicking options are limited
Liam Williams lack of gametime from 15
Inexperience of the squad as a whole

I think this is a risky selection, and I get it, Gatland has to take risks to win in NZ, but for me risks can be optimised and minimilsed in certain areas, whereas it almost feels like an 'everything on red 23' moment.

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Fanster wrote:

I'm not advocatin.I am saying Itoje and Kruis don't get to use the partnership argument against AWJ when the've never played together on the international stage...

I'm wrong about a lot of things

Yes. Yes you are.

Grand Slam 2016. Injuries hampered that partnership in the games that followed.

Itoje wasn't around fully in 2016, and was shipped to 6 in 2017 while Kruis was injured, desevedly so because Launchbury and Lawes were unstoppable! So you guys are looking for the very few times Itoje and Kruis have pertnered on the international stage, AND ignoring that Hartley ran things, you don't get why this proves my point?

You said they have never played together internationally. They have. Itoje starting at 4 and Kruis starting at 5. You are wrong.

Kruis and Itoje have tons of experience playing together, but at lower levels than international, and lions test. Have they even combo'd on the international stage? they certainly havn't combo'd in an international competition! when you add George to themix you increase risk and reduce reward, therefore all 3 cannot have their first ever international test on this stage, it would be madness!

Seriously ^^^

Are you going to call my speeling out at some point too? Read the entire thread, it makes sense.

Again, everyone seems to think I love AWJ and hate the others,it's not true, from a pure team performance perspective AWJ is probably the most important selection this week, he could be the difference to not having a set peice at all, and having to use the bench in the first half. Right there with Farrell who gets injured and the whole backline changes shape.

See, you just keep moving the goal posts. First you want to know how many games Itoje and Kruis played internationally to make your point, then when challenged that AWJ hadn't ever played with AWJ, combinations are conveniently no longer important and thus your point is proven! Then, when you tried to claim that Kruis and Itoje had never played an international game together, and were called out for being wrong on that point as well, you're still right and suddenly it changes to "haven't combo'd in an international competition" (what the flip does that even mean?). If you are asking have they started together, with Itoje starting at 4 and Kruis starting at 5, on the international stage, then as I have already said three times, yes they have, and it was to win the Six Nations Grand Slam in 2016. An international competition.

You are wrong on every count. I'm sure you will somehow construe this as you being right and that your point still stands. As such, this is a useless discussion that will just go in circles.

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Peter O'Mahony is not an inexperienced captain, for goodness sake. He has captained his team in every level he has played. He has been the undisputed Munster captain for 3 or 4 years.

Are you kidding me? Mahony has only just got back into the Ireland team, and has had the odd captaincy when Best and Heaslip were injured against the likes of Canada! Best is an experienced captain, and lions tourist, Heaslip is an experienced captain, Mahony is learning like every other debutant on tour! I don't argue against his inclusion, I'm not even arguing against his captaincy, but don't argue the lions debutant, who has captained his country in the absence of the long term leaders an experienced captain at this level...

Tell me, what use is experience if you make the wrong decisions?

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Fanster wrote:

I'm not advocatin.I am saying Itoje and Kruis don't get to use the partnership argument against AWJ when the've never played together on the international stage...

I'm wrong about a lot of things

Yes. Yes you are.

Grand Slam 2016. Injuries hampered that partnership in the games that followed.

Itoje wasn't around fully in 2016, and was shipped to 6 in 2017 while Kruis was injured, desevedly so because Launchbury and Lawes were unstoppable! So you guys are looking for the very few times Itoje and Kruis have pertnered on the international stage, AND ignoring that Hartley ran things, you don't get why this proves my point?

I beg your pardon?

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I agree Sin. I think in games like this you need tough hardened leaders rather than soft new wave feminist hipsters like Itoje. I jest but seriously Itoje isnt really as wiley and experienced as AWJs is and I think that tips the balance in Jones' favour.

So AWJ has given away 5 penalties and that shows he's wiley and experienced? Not buying it.

You can have 200 caps but if that doesn't translate to decent performances it's all useless. The game isn't won by comparing how many tests the players have played.

Statistically world cups tend to be won by the teams with nost experience.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I agree Sin. I think in games like this you need tough hardened leaders rather than soft new wave feminist hipsters like Itoje. I jest but seriously Itoje isnt really as wiley and experienced as AWJs is and I think that tips the balance in Jones' favour.

So AWJ has given away 5 penalties and that shows he's wiley and experienced? Not buying it.

You can have 200 caps but if that doesn't translate to decent performances it's all useless. The game isn't won by comparing how many tests the players have played.

It#s also not won by counting penalties (Ask mr Mccaw), it's also not won by looking at the best 15 individuals and popping them on a park, it's won with the best TEAM performance, victories are built on the training paddock, with a combination of types of players. All of which has been masterminded by a lions series winning coach, who has decided on a selection that you all disagree with, tell me how many of you guys also wanted to see the lions lose test 3 four years ago because BOD was dropped?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I agree Sin. I think in games like this you need tough hardened leaders rather than soft new wave feminist hipsters like Itoje. I jest but seriously Itoje isnt really as wiley and experienced as AWJs is and I think that tips the balance in Jones' favour.

So AWJ has given away 5 penalties and that shows he's wiley and experienced? Not buying it.

You can have 200 caps but if that doesn't translate to decent performances it's all useless. The game isn't won by comparing how many tests the players have played.

Statistically world cups tend to be won by the teams with nost experience.

Causation or correlation? The best players tend to get selected a lot of times.

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Peter O'Mahony is not an inexperienced captain, for goodness sake. He has captained his team in every level he has played. He has been the undisputed Munster captain for 3 or 4 years.

Are you kidding me? Mahony has only just got back into the Ireland team, and has had the odd captaincy when Best and Heaslip were injured against the likes of Canada! Best is an experienced captain, and lions tourist, Heaslip is an experienced captain, Mahony is learning like every other debutant on tour! I don't argue against his inclusion, I'm not even arguing against his captaincy, but don't argue the lions debutant, who has captained his country in the absence of the long term leaders an experienced captain at this level...

Scottrf wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Peter O'Mahony is not an inexperienced captain, for goodness sake. He has captained his team in every level he has played. He has been the undisputed Munster captain for 3 or 4 years.

Are you kidding me? Mahony has only just got back into the Ireland team, and has had the odd captaincy when Best and Heaslip were injured against the likes of Canada! Best is an experienced captain, and lions tourist, Heaslip is an experienced captain, Mahony is learning like every other debutant on tour! I don't argue against his inclusion, I'm not even arguing against his captaincy, but don't argue the lions debutant, who has captained his country in the absence of the long term leaders an experienced captain at this level...

Tell me, what use is experience if you make the wrong decisions?

AWJ had only captained Wales once about 5 years oreviously when he was made lions captain in 2013

People seem to be reducing experience to just a number of caps.

I personally think experience means a player is much more likely to be able to produce, irrespective of form, in a big game. Conversely an inexperienced player is much more prone to form evaporating in a big game.

I personally wouldn't have picked AWJ, as I feel he has been outperformed by all 4 of the other locks, but I can appreciate why he has been picked.

Fanster wrote:
Kruis and Itoje have tons of experience playing together, but at lower levels than international, and lions test. Have they even combo'd on the international stage? they certainly havn't combo'd in an international competition!

Kruis and Itoje started together at lock in the 2016 6 Nations in the Wales, Ireland and France games. They also played together for the last 26 minutes of the Italy game, albeit Itoje was on the flank. They then started all three tests at lock together in the subsequent Australia tour.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

Fanster wrote:
Kruis and Itoje have tons of experience playing together, but at lower levels than international, and lions test. Have they even combo'd on the international stage? they certainly havn't combo'd in an international competition!

Kruis and Itoje started together at lock in the 2016 6 Nations in the Wales, Ireland and France games. They also played together for the last 26 minutes of the Italy game, albeit Itoje was on the flank. They then started all three tests at lock together in the subsequent Australia tour.

Have they combo'd tho?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Fanster wrote:

I'm not advocatin.I am saying Itoje and Kruis don't get to use the partnership argument against AWJ when the've never played together on the international stage...

I'm wrong about a lot of things

Yes. Yes you are.

Grand Slam 2016. Injuries hampered that partnership in the games that followed.

Itoje wasn't around fully in 2016, and was shipped to 6 in 2017 while Kruis was injured, desevedly so because Launchbury and Lawes were unstoppable! So you guys are looking for the very few times Itoje and Kruis have pertnered on the international stage, AND ignoring that Hartley ran things, you don't get why this proves my point?

You said they have never played together internationally. They have. Itoje starting at 4 and Kruis starting at 5. You are wrong.

Kruis and Itoje have tons of experience playing together, but at lower levels than international, and lions test. Have they even combo'd on the international stage? they certainly havn't combo'd in an international competition! when you add George to themix you increase risk and reduce reward, therefore all 3 cannot have their first ever international test on this stage, it would be madness!

Seriously ^^^

Are you going to call my speeling out at some point too? Read the entire thread, it makes sense.

Again, everyone seems to think I love AWJ and hate the others,it's not true, from a pure team performance perspective AWJ is probably the most important selection this week, he could be the difference to not having a set peice at all, and having to use the bench in the first half. Right there with Farrell who gets injured and the whole backline changes shape.

See, you just keep moving the goal posts. First you want to know how many games Itoje and Kruis played internationally to make your point, then when challenged that AWJ hadn't ever played with AWJ, combinations are conveniently no longer important and thus your point is proven! Then, when you tried to claim that Kruis and Itoje had never played an international game together, and were called out for being wrong on that point as well, you're still right and suddenly it changes to "haven't combo'd in an international competition" (what the flip does that even mean?). If you are asking have they started together, with Itoje starting at 4 and Kruis starting at 5, on the international stage, then as I have already said three times, yes they have, and it was to win the Six Nations Grand Slam in 2016. An international competition.

You are wrong on every count. I'm sure you will somehow construe this as you being right and that your point still stands. As such, this is a useless discussion that will just go in circles.

Rory

Sadly you aren't paying attention.

1) Combinations as an argument are being made against AWJ, if I'm for AWJ here then am I making an argument for, or against these combination arguments, take your time in working it out?

2) AWJ has played a lot with AWJ (Sorry, couldn't help myself lol)

3) When directed to the link (Aus series) I admitted to directing them there on purpose to use Hartley as my point! 3 games they played, amidst an experienced pack, with a leader in the lineout. I ALSO SAID IM NOT AGAINST THEM PLAYING TOGETHER; IF WE HAD A MORE EXPERIENCED PACK!!!

4) Please for the love of dog pay attention to what I am saying...

Itoje = great player

Kruis = great player

AWJ = great player

George = great player

Mahony = great player

It's test one, against the best team in the world, George has never started an international test, Mahony is debutting on a lions tour, and a speradic captain, 2 of the packs most experienced players are quiet on the park, there is no case against AWJ's inclusion, without experience you are feeding a tight 5 of less than the number of caps of Keiron Read, Whitelock etc to the monster!

I'm not advocating for individual performances, or experience alone, i'm not advocating against Itoje Kruis partnership, i'm saying in this scenario AWJ is necesary!!!

It can't get any simpler

Have they combo'd tho?

Of course - Kruis 'freezes' them with his super power stare the Itoji hits them with a ultra high intensity 'Whoop' and the opponent shatters into bits of ice.

I'm sure I saw that happening in the Oz series...

Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

TrailApe wrote:

Have they combo'd tho?

Of course - Kruis 'freezes' them with his super power stare the Itoji hits them with a ultra high intensity 'Whoop' and the opponent shatters into bits of ice.

I'm sure I saw that happening in the Oz series...

I thought Itoje stunned them with his whoop, and Kruis blindsided them with his gormless grin.

cascough wrote:People seem to be reducing experience to just a number of caps.

I personally think experience means a player is much more likely to be able to produce, irrespective of form, in a big game. Conversely an inexperienced player is much more prone to form evaporating in a big game.

I personally wouldn't have picked AWJ, as I feel he has been outperformed by all 4 of the other locks, but I can appreciate why he has been picked.

In fairness this is how I feel about Daly, North is a superior winger, however I see what Daly offers, and Norths form on tour hasn't been great. I'm partially just happy it's not Nowell, he's been a nightmare defencively.

TrailApe wrote:

Have they combo'd tho?

Of course - Kruis 'freezes' them with his super power stare the Itoji hits them with a ultra high intensity 'Whoop' and the opponent shatters into bits of ice.

I'm sure I saw that happening in the Oz series...

It's the 'trademark Itoje clap' that does it.

BamBam wrote:Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

Never won a test series in the souther hemisphere for the lions has he hahahahahahaha

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Peter O'Mahony is not an inexperienced captain, for goodness sake. He has captained his team in every level he has played. He has been the undisputed Munster captain for 3 or 4 years.

Are you kidding me? Mahony has only just got back into the Ireland team, and has had the odd captaincy when Best and Heaslip were injured against the likes of Canada! Best is an experienced captain, and lions tourist, Heaslip is an experienced captain, Mahony is learning like every other debutant on tour! I don't argue against his inclusion, I'm not even arguing against his captaincy, but don't argue the lions debutant, who has captained his country in the absence of the long term leaders an experienced captain at this level...

Jesus, POM has been Munster captain for the last 4 years and has just been through the season of hell - not many captains would have to deal with what he has.

Joe Schmidt does not always get it right (in fact he has made a big mistake giving Heaslip another 3 year contract which effectively pushed Donnacha Ryan out the door.

Fanster wrote:

BamBam wrote:Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

Never won a test series in the souther hemisphere for the lions has he hahahahahahaha

That Australia side is worthy of a hahahahahaha on its own

BamBam wrote:Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

"EKSHPERIENSH mish Moneypenny"! Sean Connery is back again!

Sin é wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Peter O'Mahony is not an inexperienced captain, for goodness sake. He has captained his team in every level he has played. He has been the undisputed Munster captain for 3 or 4 years.

Are you kidding me? Mahony has only just got back into the Ireland team, and has had the odd captaincy when Best and Heaslip were injured against the likes of Canada! Best is an experienced captain, and lions tourist, Heaslip is an experienced captain, Mahony is learning like every other debutant on tour! I don't argue against his inclusion, I'm not even arguing against his captaincy, but don't argue the lions debutant, who has captained his country in the absence of the long term leaders an experienced captain at this level...

Jesus, POM has been Munster captain for the last 4 years and has just been through the season of hell - not many captains would have to deal with what he has.

Joe Schmidt does not always get it right (in fact he has made a big mistake giving Heaslip another 3 year contract which effectively pushed Donnacha Ryan out the door.

For the record, you think captaining the lions is similar to captaining your club? Whether Schmidt had it wrong or right, Mahony isn't an experienced international captain, Best and Heaslip have dominated that until absent have they not? I havn't said anything contraversial about Mahony, deserved to tour, deserved the test, hell i'm not even saying he doesn't deserve the captaincy, I am saying he isn't an experienced tourist, let alone captain. Whats to disagree with?

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Fanster wrote:

I'm not advocatin.I am saying Itoje and Kruis don't get to use the partnership argument against AWJ when the've never played together on the international stage...

I'm wrong about a lot of things

Yes. Yes you are.

Grand Slam 2016. Injuries hampered that partnership in the games that followed.

Itoje wasn't around fully in 2016, and was shipped to 6 in 2017 while Kruis was injured, desevedly so because Launchbury and Lawes were unstoppable! So you guys are looking for the very few times Itoje and Kruis have pertnered on the international stage, AND ignoring that Hartley ran things, you don't get why this proves my point?

You said they have never played together internationally. They have. Itoje starting at 4 and Kruis starting at 5. You are wrong.

Kruis and Itoje have tons of experience playing together, but at lower levels than international, and lions test. Have they even combo'd on the international stage? they certainly havn't combo'd in an international competition! when you add George to themix you increase risk and reduce reward, therefore all 3 cannot have their first ever international test on this stage, it would be madness!

Seriously ^^^

Are you going to call my speeling out at some point too? Read the entire thread, it makes sense.

Again, everyone seems to think I love AWJ and hate the others,it's not true, from a pure team performance perspective AWJ is probably the most important selection this week, he could be the difference to not having a set peice at all, and having to use the bench in the first half. Right there with Farrell who gets injured and the whole backline changes shape.

See, you just keep moving the goal posts. First you want to know how many games Itoje and Kruis played internationally to make your point, then when challenged that AWJ hadn't ever played with AWJ, combinations are conveniently no longer important and thus your point is proven! Then, when you tried to claim that Kruis and Itoje had never played an international game together, and were called out for being wrong on that point as well, you're still right and suddenly it changes to "haven't combo'd in an international competition" (what the flip does that even mean?). If you are asking have they started together, with Itoje starting at 4 and Kruis starting at 5, on the international stage, then as I have already said three times, yes they have, and it was to win the Six Nations Grand Slam in 2016. An international competition.

You are wrong on every count. I'm sure you will somehow construe this as you being right and that your point still stands. As such, this is a useless discussion that will just go in circles.

Rory

Sadly you aren't paying attention.

1) Combinations as an argument are being made against AWJ, if I'm for AWJ here then am I making an argument for, or against these combination arguments, take your time in working it out?

2) AWJ has played a lot with AWJ (Sorry, couldn't help myself lol)

3) When directed to the link (Aus series) I admitted to directing them there on purpose to use Hartley as my point! 3 games they played, amidst an experienced pack, with a leader in the lineout. I ALSO SAID IM NOT AGAINST THEM PLAYING TOGETHER; IF WE HAD A MORE EXPERIENCED PACK!!!

4) Please for the love of dog pay attention to what I am saying...

Itoje = great player

Kruis = great player

AWJ = great player

George = great player

Mahony = great player

It's test one, against the best team in the world, George has never started an international test, Mahony is debutting on a lions tour, and a speradic captain, 2 of the packs most experienced players are quiet on the park, there is no case against AWJ's inclusion, without experience you are feeding a tight 5 of less than the number of caps of Keiron Read, Whitelock etc to the monster!

I'm not advocating for individual performances, or experience alone, i'm not advocating against Itoje Kruis partnership, i'm saying in this scenario AWJ is necesary!!!

It can't get any simpler

It could be made right by scratching the highlighted bits though, especially as the seconds directly contradicts the preceeding statement.

BamBam wrote:

Fanster wrote:

BamBam wrote:Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

Never won a test series in the souther hemisphere for the lions has he hahahahahahaha

That Australia side is worthy of a hahahahahaha on its own

I partially agree with this, they weren't at top form in 2013, but lions tour wins are rare, and all to be savoured! Lets not downplay Englands superb 3-0 last year, or Scotlands win weeks ago shall we?

Experience doesn't equal leadership.

Fanster wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Fanster wrote:

BamBam wrote:Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

Never won a test series in the souther hemisphere for the lions has he hahahahahahaha

That Australia side is worthy of a hahahahahaha on its own

I partially agree with this, they weren't at top form in 2013, but lions tour wins are rare, and all to be savoured! Lets not downplay Englands superb 3-0 last year, or Scotlands win weeks ago shall we?

Na we shouldn't but the guy you are so eulogising probably isn't one of the top 15 standout players on that tour, i doubt anyone in history has ever said they won a game because of Alun Wyn Jones experience

Fanster wrote: I'm partially just happy it's not Nowell, he's been a nightmare defencively.

At least he can spell it

BamBam wrote:Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

Did he not captain the Lions to a series win v Australia?

Where's beshocked when you need him, he'd soon put Fanster straight

Or it would just be the world's longest tennis rally played out in forum posts instead

BamBam wrote:

Fanster wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Fanster wrote:

BamBam wrote:Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

Never won a test series in the souther hemisphere for the lions has he hahahahahahaha

That Australia side is worthy of a hahahahahaha on its own

I partially agree with this, they weren't at top form in 2013, but lions tour wins are rare, and all to be savoured! Lets not downplay Englands superb 3-0 last year, or Scotlands win weeks ago shall we?

Na we shouldn't but the guy you are so eulogising probably isn't one of the top 15 standout players on that tour, i doubt anyone in history has ever said they won a game because of Alun Wyn Jones experience

I bet Gatland has

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

Did he not captain the Lions to a series win v Australia?

Was his captaincy responsible for the points scored? Or how crap Australia were? Or for Kurtley Beale missing that penalty?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Experience doesn't equal leadership.

No but Alun does offer some of that. In his defence he was hung out unfairly over the kicking thing in the 6 nations. Capatin or not he is in the old school grizzled warrior category of locks.

Unfortunately hes in dog awful form and significantly weakens the team by being there. The experience/leadership argument could have been held up to start Best and Warburton too. Or indeed Lawes.

If you're willing to bench your tour captain why not be willing to bench the worst lock on tour?

BamBam wrote:Where's beshocked when you need him, he'd soon put Fanster straight

Or it would just be the world's longest tennis rally played out in forum posts instead

Yeah but then we'd be forced to agree with him on George and England ....noone wants to do that

Yet in the pack you have Kruis who leads the lineout yu could have Itoje who will be leading players though always talking. You have Pom munster captain and sob who. Never shuts up. I fail to see why these players lack leadership.

BamBam wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

Did he not captain the Lions to a series win v Australia?

Was his captaincy responsible for the points scored? Or how crap Australia were? Or for Kurtley Beale missing that penalty?

He captained test 3, not 1 and 2...

It's like your not even a lions fan, weird that?!

Well is it captaincy or experience he's in the side for? Because he isn't captain now either

Bam he doesn't know what he's arguing. It's just a wum.

Gooseberry wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Experience doesn't equal leadership.

No but Alun does offer some of that. In his defence he was hung out unfairly over the kicking thing in the 6 nations. Capatin or not he is in the old school grizzled warrior category of locks.

Unfortunately hes in dog awful form and significantly weakens the team by being there. The experience/leadership argument could have been held up to start Best and Warburton too. Or indeed Lawes.

If you're willing to bench your tour captain why not be willing to bench the worst lock on tour?

Warburtons carrying an injury, and agreed to bench apparently.

Best has played ok, but his darts fall once he misses one, and well George has been superb! Lawes has had a few headknocks, and is a bit wild, you need groundwork players in a team, Lawes isn't it!

It's like there is this anti lions agenda that pops up, noone will listen to reason, or concede my valid points when I concede valid points made to me...

Simple questions: do you think Jones has played well so far on tour? Has he played better than any of the other locks? Did he play well in the 6N? Did he show particularly good leadership then?

Fanster wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Fanster wrote:

BamBam wrote:Why the hell would we want a second row who is experienced at losing every time he comes up against the SH?

Right lads, gather in .. I have no idea how we turn this scoreline around because I've never been part of a team that does, but I have EKSHPERIENSH so I'm on the field

Never won a test series in the souther hemisphere for the lions has he hahahahahahaha

That Australia side is worthy of a hahahahahaha on its own

I partially agree with this, they weren't at top form in 2013, but lions tour wins are rare, and all to be savoured! Lets not downplay Englands superb 3-0 last year, or Scotlands win weeks ago shall we?

Nope, another Garland blunder showing he has no skill in picking players with the necessary skills to be a Lions Captain. MI at 18 was better then AWJ is now.

He has won a series 3 - 0 against those same Wallabies when the Lions where lucky to get away with a 2-1 win, a simple refereeing decision could have made it a 1-2 loss. Has Maro ever lost to a SH side? No fear of the AB to dampen down the enthusiasm, confidence built upon winning just about everything he has had the chance of winning plus an undoubted skill set that sets him apart from the norm even at International level.

When AWJ was picked for the tour over at least two and probably more locks it was ordained that he should start and those pictures he has of Garland and that "lady" ensure it.

BamBam wrote:Well is it captaincy or experience he's in the side for? Because he isn't captain now either

You think captaining is a player gaining experience in a leadership role?! When did I advocate him for captain?

If this was an AWJ love in, why would I not be promoting him as the best performing lock, or talking about him deserving captaincy?!

Why will so few listen to reason?

Cos you're wumming probably.

Maro hasnt played against the ABs yet. Beating Australia and SA at the moment isnt that hard it seems given that Scotland, Ireland and England have beaten Australia recently and Wales, Italy, Ireland and England have all beaten SA.

Fanster wrote:noone will listen to reason, or concede my valid points when I concede valid points made to me...

8/10 wumming, I believed you were serious until this post.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Simple questions: do you think Jones has played well so far on tour? Has he played better than any of the other locks? Did he play well in the 6N? Did he show particularly good leadership then?

Thanks for asking, at least this might aid discussion!!!

I don't think AWJ has performed at his best, he hasn't been bad, and has a specific role to play. Kruis and Itoje have both been very good, however lets be honest, AWJ knows Gatland, knows the gameplan, has been around 2 other lions tours, and Gatland for years now, he has less to prove on tour than the others, and probably more to lose by overtrying in warm up games.

Lawes and Henderson have been ok, I still think Grey and Launchbury deserved to tour, probably ahead of both but neither have been bad. Neither I'd want to see against NZ mind.

We have 3 standouts, unfortunately for Itoje he's been relegated to the bench due to great form from George, Furlong, Mahony etc.

Option A - A proven loser against NZ/Aus/SA more often than not, on this tour alone he's looked physically incapable compared to others on the field

Option B - Someone who has excelled at every level of rugby, played far better than Option A against the equivalent opposition, more often than not he's physically dominant

Most would go option B but EKSHPERIENSH

Fanster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Peter O'Mahony is not an inexperienced captain, for goodness sake. He has captained his team in every level he has played. He has been the undisputed Munster captain for 3 or 4 years.

Are you kidding me? Mahony has only just got back into the Ireland team, and has had the odd captaincy when Best and Heaslip were injured against the likes of Canada! Best is an experienced captain, and lions tourist, Heaslip is an experienced captain, Mahony is learning like every other debutant on tour! I don't argue against his inclusion, I'm not even arguing against his captaincy, but don't argue the lions debutant, who has captained his country in the absence of the long term leaders an experienced captain at this level...

Jesus, POM has been Munster captain for the last 4 years and has just been through the season of hell - not many captains would have to deal with what he has.

Joe Schmidt does not always get it right (in fact he has made a big mistake giving Heaslip another 3 year contract which effectively pushed Donnacha Ryan out the door.

For the record, you think captaining the lions is similar to captaining your club? Whether Schmidt had it wrong or right, Mahony isn't an experienced international captain, Best and Heaslip have dominated that until absent have they not? I havn't said anything contraversial about Mahony, deserved to tour, deserved the test, hell i'm not even saying he doesn't deserve the captaincy, I am saying he isn't an experienced tourist, let alone captain. Whats to disagree with?

POM had a potential career ending injury at the last world cup. He was out for over a year. That is why Best got the captaincy (and has done an excellent job). Heaslip is not a good captain - and sporadically captained Leinster. Lets not forget that Martin Johnson had not captained England before he captained the Lions either. Munster is a big club to be captain of. Because Munster (and all Irish Provinces) are part of the community, the supporters expectations are very high.

Scottrf wrote:

Fanster wrote:noone will listen to reason, or concede my valid points when I concede valid points made to me...

8/10 wumming, I believed you were serious until this post.

Thats it, myself in coertion with Gatland, the players on tour, hundreds of professional players worldwide, and the rugby loving public are wumming the thread of 606v2 in the selection and defence of AWJ for the lions first test...

Sounds stupid doesn't it, almost too stupid.

Has this place become that much of an echo chamber, that someone agreeing with a selected player has to be wumming?

I'm assuming I must be on fanster s avoid list as I've pointed out his wumming previously.

BamBam wrote:Option A - A proven loser against NZ/Aus/SA more often than not, on this tour alone he's looked physically incapable compared to others on the field

Option B - Someone who has excelled at every level of rugby, played far better than Option A against the equivalent opposition, more often than not he's physically dominant

Most would go option B but EKSHPERIENSH

I think you should take into consideration the wisdom that a player learns more from their losses than they do from their victories.