Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

First topic message reminder :

Vunipola 40
George 17 (0 starts)
Furong 16
AWJ 110
Kruis 20

Itoje 12

What is the obvious stat here capwise that without AWJ the lions don't have? jesus that kiwi tight5 average 70 plus each don't they?!?! How can anyone not view our tight 5 as massively inexperienced. Mako Vunipola I still classed as inexperienced and he'd have to lead!!! with this being Georges first ever test start also.

I think George starting is a massive call, one I understand, I personally would've gone for Owens but hey, off the bench he's a great option. George will need experience around him, he needs a cool head who's seen everything before, and I think Sinckler is a victim of Georges selection, had Owens started I think Sinckler would have also.

Very few people seem to rate AWJ, he has been lauded the best lock in the world recently, until Howley got his hands on the team and created another horror show, most people were considering AWJ, Itoje and Jonny Grey as test starters (Istill don'T understand Greys exclusion but hey).

The AWJ is a non issue, he's good enough, he's needed far more than any other player we have, let alone forward, let alone lock.

My worry is points left on the park, and Gatlands selection of players who are still in recovery from FULL 80 MINUTES!!!!!

There are too many question marks around starters for me to feel comfortable...

Georges lack of experience,
Front row combination looks unbalanced,
Back row combo looks unbalanced,
Inexperienced captain,
Farrells lack of game time at 10 on the highest stage, and injury
Teo's inability to do anything but act like Jamie Roberts
Davies's fitness
both wingers defencive capabilities (although Watsons less so)
Kicking options are limited
Liam Williams lack of gametime from 15
Inexperience of the squad as a whole

I think this is a risky selection, and I get it, Gatland has to take risks to win in NZ, but for me risks can be optimised and minimilsed in certain areas, whereas it almost feels like an 'everything on red 23' moment.

BamBam wrote:If I didn't support the Lions completely, I'd be hoping that AWJ got physically shamed by the likes of Retallick and Kaino, to prove just how much of a decrepit has been he is

Alas, I have to hope he somehow isn't completely shoite and can put in a performance worthy of the shirt

Spoken like a true lions supporter, I often find myself hoping that certain team member get shamed on the pitch, oh wait, no thats not normal.

Reading comprehension not your strong point is it poppet

To be honest while I think Itoje is a superior player to Jones, Jones needs to start. If you go through that pack without Jones its lacking of experience. Without Warburton you need leaders as when you are 10 behind in the first 15 mins and under your own sticks you need old heads to stop the rest of the players heads imploding.

I would have gone another route player wise and played initially Jones, Kruis and Itoje at 4-6 from the start of the tour but as a 23 to select at this stage this is probably the best selection.

I do think it has the potential to kill the tour mind. If it goes wrong people will rightly stress that Warburton was obviously unfit from the moment he was selected as tour captain. He shouldn't be on the bench... I'd say Haskell, Stander and Lawes are all better options right now.
North is the same... you can't wish a player fit and on form. At least Gatland didn't do a SCW and take his hopes all the way to the test however what is arguably worse is that he now has a back 3 who haven't really played together or faced the toughest opponents.

So presumably you'd want best to start as well. Jones isn't a leader he stepped aside for guys with much less experience.

To be honest while I think Itoje is a superior player to Jones, Jones needs to start. If you go through that pack without Jones its lacking of experience. Without Warburton you need leaders as when you are 10 behind in the first 15 mins and under your own sticks you need old heads to stop the rest of the players heads imploding.

Or you could play your strongest players and try not to go 10 down in 15 minutes?

With Jones also 0 for 10 against the All Blacks, if we go down early will he be overwhelmed by a sense of inevitably? Would it not be better to start an impetuous youth who wouldn't know when he's beat?

I don't think Jones is bad by any means and probably won't let us down, but I'd have picked Itoje. We need players at the absolute top of their game, and I'm not sure Jones is.

From what I have seen and heard (not been a Sarries fan), Itoje is very much a leader despite his tender years, true leaders are born; leaders can develop with experience, but Itoje just seems to be a natural. I would much rather have a guy that everyone looks up to because of their ability and presence than some one who is deemed a leader as he is experienced and has been around the block a few times (loosing every time).

AWJ is the Welsh version of Borthwick, just not as good in the lineout.



But probably better in all other areas

5 pages? Come on guys we got told there wasnt a single legitimate argument 2 pages back.

4 years ago we had all the same old Love sacks on here about BOD been dropped in favour of JD2.
Anyone remember how that turned out?

Yeah it didn't matter because the pack was much improved with the enforced rejig in the back row and a loose head who was great in the scrum and loose.

Or the compelte opposite .... BOD was lucky to have toured and wasnt playing wrll. Kind of the same as AWJ now. It took Gatland too long to stop backing an old legend to come good.
A fair amount of the outrage at his dropping was to do with Ireland fans ( and BOD himself) feeling it was communicated badly and that he desreved special treatment.
It was largely bumf then and backing AWJ when theres 2-3 better players who didnt make tour let alone the 3 hes somehow got selected ahead of.

Fanster

I am a big Jonny gray fan - however at the end of the season he looked completely knackered andlost his form - He was even rested for the first scotland test. I actually don't think he would have been ready to play any of the warm up games and do himself justice. Given the number of class locks around in the end I think this was an OK decision. AWJ on the other hand does not deserve to be there. Out of form and not one of the best locks around.

I don't have an issue with AWJ being picked, though he doesn't deserve it on form I think he will come good for the test matches, he's a big game player and I'm expecting a Simon Shaw-esque performance.
I could be completely wrong of course
I find it odd that people can defend Hartley's inclusion for England despite his lack of form and a better player on the bench, yet take so much offence at AWJ's inclusion.

If you want leadership the Barclay was your man. Form of his life. outplayed his welsh opposites in the 6N and a real leader.

LondonTiger wrote:

BamBam wrote:Posted on another thread, but if we're valuing cap count and experience over actual playing ability, someone should check on Jason Leonard's availability for the weekend

Not sure you can separate him from his pint glass for one enough to get even one scrum completed.

Using the experience criteria, I guess we should be selecting:

Marler (51 ccaps)
Best (104)
Cole (74)
Lawes (58)

Alongside AWJ

ross ford - 109 caps?

Hoonercat wrote:I don't have an issue with AWJ being picked, though he doesn't deserve it on form I think he will come good for the test matches, he's a big game player and I'm expecting a Simon Shaw-esque performance.
I could be completely wrong of course
I find it odd that people can defend Hartley's inclusion for England despite his lack of form and a better player on the bench, yet take so much offence at AWJ's inclusion.

I actually think you have a point there. The only difference is that England have had a bloody good record during the Hartley/Jones era. Whereas the recent AWJ/Gatland record is pants.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:I don't have an issue with AWJ being picked, though he doesn't deserve it on form I think he will come good for the test matches, he's a big game player and I'm expecting a Simon Shaw-esque performance.
I could be completely wrong of course
I find it odd that people can defend Hartley's inclusion for England despite his lack of form and a better player on the bench, yet take so much offence at AWJ's inclusion.

I actually think you have a point there. The only difference is that England have had a bloody good record during the Hartley/Jones era. Whereas the recent AWJ/Gatland record is pants.

The other point to make is that the idea that in the front row the starter should be better than the finisher is very out of date. Jones knows both will play and picks players who are best suited to a tighter game as starters and those who are best suited to a looser game as finishers; hence Hartley then George and Cole then Sinckler. In many people's opinions in both cases the finisher is better than the starter.

This is not as applicable in the second row as there are not one for one replacements.

2ndtimeround wrote:4 years ago we had all the same old Love sacks on here about BOD been dropped in favour of JD2.
Anyone remember how that turned out?

The Lions beat a pretty poor Australian side as they should have. As far as you know they would have won by a bigger margin with BOD. What is your point?

Exiledinborders wrote:

2ndtimeround wrote:4 years ago we had all the same old Love sacks on here about BOD been dropped in favour of JD2.
Anyone remember how that turned out?

The Lions beat a pretty poor Australian side as they should have. As far as you know they would have won by a bigger margin with BOD. What is your point?

Even if we hopefully do win! Which of course all Lions supporters hope for. The AWJs decision will not be justified just like the BOD decision 4 years ago.
It's the principle involved not the end result because, of course, there are so many other factors involved & the what if? argument is pointless.

The obvious thing is that you would probably get a better performance from the likes of Kruis,George and M.Vunipola if you play their team mate Itoje.

Breaking up that axis I believe is foolish. On a Lions tour you need coherency.

Shoehorning AWJ into the line up does seem very much like Welsh bias.

Kruis and AWJ is still largely an unproven 2nd row partnership. Kruis and Itoje on the other hand has been very successful.

If AWJ was tearing it up on the Lions tour, there would be a good case but he's statistically been the worst lock.

Based purely on form, AWJ shouldn't be touring with the Lions at all.

As for being a big game player.... Itoje has a higher % of victories and for a 22 year old he's got a large trophy cabinet. Oh and he's done this with George,Kruis and M.Vunipola.....


Also going back to this big game experience, most of that for AWJ is as a loser against SH sides.

Most of these things have been said already but still...

NZ will be laughing. Instead of putting the best potential 2nd row partnership to challenge NZ, they've left 1 out of the starting line up which will negatively affect the rest of the team.

AWJ might well be more experienced but didn't prevent Itoje last year in the 6 nations from being the most influential player on the pitch vs Wales.

beshocked wrote:...

NZ will be laughing.  Instead of putting the best potential 2nd row partnership to challenge NZ, they've left 1 out of the starting line up which will negatively affect the rest of the team.
...

I'm disappointed. Wanted to see the best lock pairing in the world (Retallick/Whitelock) up against the "young pretenders" - the 2nd best pairing in Kruis/Itoje.

Retallick dominating AWJ won't be pretty

Potential Lions team:

Vunipola, George, Barrington, Itoje, Kruis, Brown Clark, Fraser, Vunipola Wray
Wigglesworth, Farrell, Ashton Williams, Barritt (C), Taylor, Maitland, Goode.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

beshocked wrote:...

NZ will be laughing.  Instead of putting the best potential 2nd row partnership to challenge NZ, they've left 1 out of the starting line up which will negatively affect the rest of the team.
...

I'm disappointed. Wanted to see the best lock pairing in the world (Retallick/Whitelock) up against the "young pretenders" - the 2nd best pairing in Kruis/Itoje.

Retallick dominating AWJ won't be pretty

Me too. Itoje and Kruis had been hyped as the "best lock pairing in the world" so it would have been very interesting to see them in action against the real best lock pairing in the world.

Maybe the second test?

On tour form I'm not sure Itoje should be included. Lawes maybe?

I agree probably should be Kruis Lawes and Itoje on the bench from form. Though Lawes having played the majority of a game this week already probably better from the bench.

Well Itoje was MOTM vs Maori, not too bad.

Itoje's weakness is giving away penalties but AWJ has given away even more so......

robbo whilst I actually think Taylor might have been a solid tourist if he wasn't injured for most of the year, that team has too many weaknesses.

Especially in the backrow and 9. Maitland could have been a solid mid weeker too if he wasn't injured.

Saracens might have leading players in certain positions but in others still work to be done.


Still I think not picking Itoje with his fellow team mates in the front five is a mistake.


If I was selecting I wouldn't have AWJ in the 23, Lawes would be on the bench, Stander would be instead of Warburton too.

beshocked wrote:Well Itoje was MOTM vs Maori, not too bad.

Itoje's weakness is giving away penalties but AWJ has given away even more so......

robbo whilst I actually think Taylor might have been a solid tourist if he wasn't injured for most of the year, that team has too many weaknesses.

Especially in the backrow and 9. Maitland could have been a solid mid weeker too if he wasn't injured.

Saracens might have leading players in certain positions but in others still work to be done.


Still I think not picking Itoje with his fellow team mates in the front five is a mistake.


If I was selecting I wouldn't have AWJ in the 23, Lawes would be on the bench, Stander would be instead of Warburton too.

I agree with that. And with Stander on the bench. But perhaps Lawes starting, Itoje on the bench.

I'm a huge fan of Tipuric. For me he's been class again this tour just don't understand why he's so often overlooked.

Exiledinborders wrote:

2ndtimeround wrote:4 years ago we had all the same old Love sacks on here about BOD been dropped in favour of JD2.
Anyone remember how that turned out?

The Lions beat a pretty poor Australian side as they should have. As far as you know they would have won by a bigger margin with BOD. What is your point?

simple point really, everyone then thought they knew better also.
wouldn't have thought that would need explaining but oh well.

I actually have zero problem with AWJ starting. He has not been as bad on this tour as many would believe. He is coming into form so who is to say that he will perform badly... He is an excellent player when in full stride.

Itoje, for me, will make an excellent impact sub which I feel is part of Gatland's plan. The Lions will lose nothing in the set piece with AWJ on and his big game experience will be very beneficial I feel.

Very happy for POM, been a tough last year for him but he is a proven leader for Munster and Ireland so I have zero doubts about him leading the Lions.

Very much looking forward to tomorrow's game, I have a feeling that the Lions may just get the win. It may not be pretty but a win is a win.

eirebilly wrote:Very much looking forward to tomorrow's game, I have a feeling that the Lions may just get the win. It may not be pretty but a win is a win.

I'm getting that feeling too now, despite myself.

If we can limit them to kicks at goal, I think we can do it.

That's a big 'if', of course!

eirebilly wrote:I actually have zero problem with AWJ starting. He has not been as bad on this tour as many would believe. He is coming into form so who is to say that he will perform badly... He is an excellent player when in full stride.

Itoje, for me, will make an excellent impact sub which I feel is part of Gatland's plan. The Lions will lose nothing in the set piece with AWJ on and his big game experience will be very beneficial I feel.

Very happy for POM, been a tough last year for him but he is a proven leader for Munster and Ireland so I have zero doubts about him leading the Lions.

Very much looking forward to tomorrow's game, I have a feeling that the Lions may just get the win. It may not be pretty but a win is a win.

He was a very good player a few years ago but he seems to be living off past glories a bit and expecting him to perform to a level he never has before is a bit optimistic.

Set piece wise I think we lose an awful lot without Itoje, his ability to compete on opposition ball without any lifters is a big plus and he's a more powerful scrummager to boot, the only thing going against him is experience which is absurd really.

Hammer, he is still a very good player. He was injured but has shown signs on this tour that he is coming back to form. In the line out, there is POM and Kruis who are great spoilers, AWJ is by no means a slouch in that regard either.

I do not think he is the form player going in but he is a player that is coming back into form and as I said, I feel Itoje will make a big impact from the bench.

At the end of the day, the man has been selected so regardless of what people think, we should all get behind the team.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Very much looking forward to tomorrow's game, I have a feeling that the Lions may just get the win. It may not be pretty but a win is a win.

I'm getting that feeling too now, despite myself.

If we can limit them to kicks at goal, I think we can do it.

That's a big 'if', of course!

Man for man the ABs have the better team - thus (excepting a bout of food poisoning) the Lions need to be better than the sum of their parts. Not sure they have been together anywhere near long enough for that to happen.

Our best hope is that we have a French ref, and better kicking. Every other factor is against us.

We'll have to disagree on that one, I can't ignore that Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Kruis and both the Grays have all outplayed him in the past 16 months or the fact he's never come close to competing against Retallick or Whitelock.

Scottrf wrote:Our best hope is that we have a French ref, and better kicking. Every other factor is against us.

We will need to wait for Tests 2 & 3 then.

What I am most worried about is that Gats has chosen a team to appeal to the masses and maybe changed the gameplan at the last minute. Writing on the RFU site, Martin Corry states that Woodward changed the whole makeup of the team and the tactics they were going to play at the last minute - and basically they went onto the field pretty clueless. Gatland is a better coach than Woodward so hopefully the shape of the team was always going to be a lot as it now is.

Scottrf wrote:Our best hope is that we have a French ref, and better kicking. Every other factor is against us.

That's us screwed then. We have a South African ref with a reputation for being very lax at the breakdown allowing players to clear out from the side thereby obtaining quick ball which is probably to the All Black's advantage. The good news is that the next two games have French refs.

For all Beauden Barrett's strengths his kicking can be wayward so we might get some advantage there. Murray's kicking has been superb.

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Our best hope is that we have a French ref, and better kicking. Every other factor is against us.

We will need to wait for Tests 2 & 3 then.

What I am most worried about is that Gats has chosen a team to appeal to the masses and maybe changed the gameplan at the last minute. Writing on the RFU site, Martin Corry states that Woodward changed the whole makeup of the team and the tactics they were going to play at the last minute - and basically they went onto the field pretty clueless. Gatland is a better coach than Woodward so hopefully the shape of the team was always going to be a lot as it now is.

He really is on a hiding to nothing, isn't he?! He's chosen a team that people were largely calling for, dropped players people didn't want and who were not in form. Only 1 contentious inclusion. But now it's seen as appealing to the masses!

I'm not a huge Gats fan, but I said before the tournament that there would be absolutely no way in the world that Gatland would please people. Even with a series win.

AWJ has tried his hardest not to get selected but has failed, despite some dire performances. I do not understand his selection at all but I'm not suprised.

Very late to the party here but I have not seen much if any evidence of AWJ being regarded as the best lock in the world. It is only the kind of thing that is liable to appear in the most parochial of Welsh media.

He is a very good lock, but we currently have a number of very good locks many of whom are arguably better. The experience is something in his favour but it is a factor not the factor

The one thing I keep saying about him is that his value to Wales in particular is far greater than just his playing ability would suggest. He is a key figure in the Welsh pack. Most teams have a similar guy, not necessarily the best player on the pitch but the one whose value you most appreciate only when they are not playing. You could argue the current English version is Robshaw, or possibly Hartley. I do think this factor (presence, leadership whatever) is one of the hardest things to transfer from a national team to a scratch one.

It is hard to justify AWJ's selection in the starting team unless he's doing a lot more in training than we are seeing on the pitch, because on the pitch the alternatives are arguably doing better, and he's not obviously the guy that is providing the focus in the pack.

Griff wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Our best hope is that we have a French ref, and better kicking. Every other factor is against us.

We will need to wait for Tests 2 & 3 then.

What I am most worried about is that Gats has chosen a team to appeal to the masses and maybe changed the gameplan at the last minute. Writing on the RFU site, Martin Corry states that Woodward changed the whole makeup of the team and the tactics they were going to play at the last minute - and basically they went onto the field pretty clueless. Gatland is a better coach than Woodward so hopefully the shape of the team was always going to be a lot as it now is.

He really is on a hiding to nothing, isn't he?!  He's chosen a team that people were largely calling for, dropped players people didn't want and who were not in form.  Only 1 contentious inclusion.  But now it's seen as appealing to the masses!

I'm not a huge Gats fan, but I said before the tournament that there would be absolutely no way in the world that Gatland would please people.  Even with a series win.

A series win in NZ would be the biggest of accomplishments, and I would be amazed and ecstatic if it happened.

I get the feeling you did not read my entire post before lambasting it, or perhaps I explained myself badly - but my gut feel is you want to be offended so fine, be offended.. Perhaps I should have included the bit I deleted where I said Gatland was on a hiding to nothing. I will admit I am worried that the entire coaching staff have allowed a win over an extremely weak team to taint their views - but i do think they have made some brave calls. I do not believe the players we have are good enough to win a series. If they do so however it does mean extra credit should be given to the coaching staff.

What's he changed LT? Halfpenny has been dropped as hia protocols meant he didn't train til later in the week. We've gone for the solid dour run at them midfield. Daly and jones? Doesn't really change the plan.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's he changed LT?  Halfpenny has been dropped as hia protocols meant he didn't train til later in the week. We've gone for the solid dour run at them midfield. Daly and jones? Doesn't really change the plan.

I just hope the tactics have not changed at the last minute. Not saying they have, just hope they have not. As I said before I believe Gats to be a better coach than SCW - so hopefully he has not made the same mistake he did.

Did not know about 1/2p and HIA. If that is the case he should not even be on the bench imo.


Back to the original point - I fully understand why AWJ was selected. I may not agree, but I can understand why he is in.

Ah got you. He did pass all hia s just wasn't up to speed apparently.

LondonTiger wrote:

Griff wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Our best hope is that we have a French ref, and better kicking. Every other factor is against us.

We will need to wait for Tests 2 & 3 then.

What I am most worried about is that Gats has chosen a team to appeal to the masses and maybe changed the gameplan at the last minute. Writing on the RFU site, Martin Corry states that Woodward changed the whole makeup of the team and the tactics they were going to play at the last minute - and basically they went onto the field pretty clueless. Gatland is a better coach than Woodward so hopefully the shape of the team was always going to be a lot as it now is.

He really is on a hiding to nothing, isn't he?!  He's chosen a team that people were largely calling for, dropped players people didn't want and who were not in form.  Only 1 contentious inclusion.  But now it's seen as appealing to the masses!

I'm not a huge Gats fan, but I said before the tournament that there would be absolutely no way in the world that Gatland would please people.  Even with a series win.

A series win in NZ would be the biggest of accomplishments, and I would be amazed and ecstatic if it happened.

I get the feeling you did not read my entire post before lambasting it, or perhaps I explained myself badly - but my gut feel is you want to be offended so fine, be offended.. Perhaps I should have included the bit I deleted where I said Gatland was on a hiding to nothing. I will admit I am worried that the entire coaching staff have allowed a win over an extremely weak team to taint their views - but i do think they have made some brave calls. I do not believe the players we have are good enough to win a series. If they do so however it does mean extra credit should be given to the coaching staff.

Excuse me? Lambast your post? I think it is you who has misunderstood MY post! I'm not offended by your post in the slightest. I'm using it to point out that regardless of the team Gatland picked he would be criticised, I.e. on a hiding to nothing. If you wrote and deleted 'hiding to nothing' then you're in agreement with me too! Pick a team on form (AWJ excepted) and he's criticised (not just by you). Pick a team not on form and he'll get criticised, obviously. Not sure what else he could have done (in terms of selection). As an example, since Hogg got injured a number of posters hoped he would go for L Williams at fullback but were sure he'd plump for Halfpenny. Now he's chosen L Williams you seem to be suggesting it's just because of the Chiefs win. People wanted it before that. The same goes for Daly et al.

You get that feeling I want to be offended? Bizarre take on my post! Have a sandwich, man!

Griff I think if AWJ was out of the 23 with Itoje starting then most non Welsh fans would be happier.

It's about putting in the best Welsh players, not just filling a Gatland quota.


The experience thing is being exaggerated.  Not as if AWJ is a Richie Mccaw esque figure or even Martin Johnson.

He's not a world class lock - he's a good lock but the Lions have many of them.

He doesn't have a successful record vs most SH sides.

Also I am not convinced he would get an improved performance from the players around him.

Itoje on the other hand I think would lift the team with his enthusiasm and general dynamism.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40380835

Bbc sport fans have spoken - most would have picked Itoje.

I don't disagree on AWJ, Beshocked. I've said since the team announcement that he shouldn't be in.

Fair enough Griff. Perhaps AWJ will prove the doubters wrong. We'll see.

You'd think Gatland would want to steer away from controversy.

But he's also his own man and is not afraid of doing what he feels is best. Which is why I disagree that he's gone for a populist squad selection. He's never been one to do that.

How has he gone populist?