Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

He came across very poor as did fellow lib Clegg with his constant sniping at the Brexit issue.
Good riddance to both.Libs may well be a non entity now.
Tories have to proceed with caution now and build up some confidence again.

Our fire guy at work is telling us today that they really should have gone for a full evacuation at an early stage but that runs right against all previous policy putting residents and fire staff in potentially greater danger.In Blackadder terms it would have been going 'over the top'

[Diggers]

Interesting to see what the meat on the bones of the Tory/DUP deal is, apparently they are skilled negotiators (had plenty of practice) and won't roll over, the main aim being fiscal support. Not sure how though the Tories can suddenly justify finding a "magic money tree" for additional NI funding, unless of course it simply means greater cuts in other regions. Can't see that going down too well.
I really do feel that May is stuffed; approval rating has plummeted to -10 after an all time high, Corbyn meanwhile reaches the head heights of a zero approval rating.
It seems that Grenfell has become a metaphor for social divide, not blaming her or the Tories for the event, more what many now seem to feel it represent - a them and us society.

[McLaren]

Dyna

I voted lib dim partly due to an unlikely scenario where they could overturn the ideocy of brexit voters. Just a shame he didn't like bum sex.

[super_realist]

Interesting to see what the meat on the bones of the Tory/DUP deal is, apparently they are skilled negotiators (had plenty of practice) and won't roll over, the main aim being fiscal support. Not sure how though the Tories can suddenly justify finding a "magic money tree" for additional NI funding, unless of course it simply means greater cuts in other regions. Can't see that going down too well.
I really do feel that May is stuffed; approval rating has plummeted to -10 after an all time high, Corbyn meanwhile reaches the head heights of a zero approval rating.
It seems that Grenfell has become a metaphor for social divide, not blaming her or the Tories for the event, more what many now seem to feel it represent - a them and us society.

I've always wondered what benefit NI brought to the UK, as far as I can see they don't bring anything worthwhile.

As for the Greenfell thing. I find it pretty distasteful people are using this as some sort of austerity barometer when the flats had millions spent on them bringing them up to standard. Shame it was the standards which were the problem.

[beninho]

Think the political point is that local authorities have had budgets sliced continuously for years, which means they start taking cheaper options at tender stage. Its also that the tory government hadn't implemented any of the previous recommendations after a previous fire in a london block. Doesnt help that her cos is an ex housing minister.

On the other side, its hard to blame this squarely on her, but she has again handled it pretty badly. She should've showed up and taken whatever abuse came her way instead of hiding in the background.

Lets see how quickly they bsn this type of cladding aswell.

[Diggers]

Interesting to see what the meat on the bones of the Tory/DUP deal is, apparently they are skilled negotiators (had plenty of practice) and won't roll over, the main aim being fiscal support. Not sure how though the Tories can suddenly justify finding a "magic money tree" for additional NI funding, unless of course it simply means greater cuts in other regions. Can't see that going down too well.
I really do feel that May is stuffed; approval rating has plummeted to -10 after an all time high, Corbyn meanwhile reaches the head heights of a zero approval rating.
It seems that Grenfell has become a metaphor for social divide, not blaming her or the Tories for the event, more what many now seem to feel it represent - a them and us society.

I've always wondered what benefit NI brought to the UK, as far as I can see they don't bring anything worthwhile.

As for the Greenfell thing. I find it pretty distasteful people are using this as some sort of austerity barometer when the flats had millions spent on them bringing them up to standard. Shame it was the standards which were the problem.

Millions on updating the aesthetics of the building to make an affluent area look more presentable.

[Be_the_ball]

I've always wondered what benefit NI brought to the UK, as far as I can see they don't bring anything worthwhile.

The Shinners and the DUP argued for 3 months last year over the name of a park.

However having said that, the DUP have a real opportunity now to prove they are a party for all in NI. If they can resist small minded one upmanship and deliver for all of NI that would be a huge blow to the Shinners. If they resume currently banned Orange marches through nationalist areas, NI will again become polarised. Currently I know catholics in NI that would vote for traditional Unionist parties based on economic grounds, that's what would be considered "normal" voting patterns in the rest of UK&I, but if the DUP polarise society up there then that will be destroyed.

[dynamark]

Digs Morning .Don't believe everything you read.
Grenfell also had new kitchens ,windows,heating systems and other works to enhance the building for the residents -who are paying by one means or another a very reasonable rent..the main purpose of the cladding would be insulation and weatherproofing.Common wisdom is that there was a cavity behind the cladding which should be including mineral fibre vertical and horizontal barriers to prevent spread of flame.Either way it didn't work and this type of cladding with be no more you would hope.Very similar materials in most industrial buildings  walls and roofs.
I spent most of last week surveying for new kitchens in social housing and there are both extremes of how folk treat their social housing some you would not believe could happen.Sadly many do their cause no favours and ruin it for others.Very common for people to leave bikes,rubbish old furniture in stairwells and common areas against the building rules and it needs a very strong estates team to police it.I have been threatened several times we recently had a block where some nutter was threatening staff with a syringe of blood.Extremes

[Diggers]

Not so much what I've read as what I've heard residents say, I guess it will all come out in the report. I'm sure you've met lots of very nice people in social housing as well?
The thing is though people won't see all the facts, the fire has been presented in such a way (and is definitely being discussed in a way) that defines a them and us society. People are sick of austerity and May has once again given the appearance of not caring, though I have no doubt she does. People look for leaders to stand up and lead, she prefers to keep her distance.

[super_realist]

Also, when something is burning at 1000c, there's not really such a thing as "inflammable". Virtually everything will burn.

I was speaking to a fireman today, and conditions play a massive part. Flames can skip entire concrete areas and simply start on the next object that will burn.

[Diggers]

But surely you only get to a temperature of 1000c by having a very flammable substance in the first place? Then anything else that's around it will burn.

[beninho]

Another bloody terrorist attack. This country needs to pull itself together, somehow.

[McLaren]

And this guy probably had a stash of Douglas Murray books under his bed. How do you explain this one super?

[super_realist]

And this guy probably had a stash of Douglas Murray books under his bed.  How do you explain this one super?

Why would I have to explain anything Mac? Obviously some deranged moron.

You seem to think by criticising Murray that there is something wrong with being anti-islam? Aren't you against bad ideas like religion? Douglas Murray wouldn't condone such an action, he's outspoken about the ridiculous and stupid beliefs of dangerous and evil religion, of which Islam is the current worst one. What's wrong with that?

There is zero wrong with Murrays stance on Islam, his views on immigration however, are probably what you are getting confused by.

[Be_the_ball]

"Carried Fisher had cocaine and ecstacy in her system when she had the heart attack".

Jebus, even the sweet old ladies in Hollywood are degenerate junkies

[super_realist]

That must have been great for her heart.

[pedro]

And heroin. Talking about hyperspace...

[kwinigolfer]

Amazing stat, 1,300 children die from gun-related injuries every year, (which the NRA of course will never admit):

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40336048

#MAGA

[Mad for Chelsea]

The Times headlines in response to today's terrorist attack.

Heading: Jobless 'lone wolf' held over attack on mosque
Sub-heading: Father of four had suffered mental health problems, say family

One suspects that had the attacker been a Muslim these might have been somewhat different. The press in this country disgusts me.

[raycastleunited]

The Times headlines in response to today's terrorist attack.

Heading: Jobless 'lone wolf' held over attack on mosque
Sub-heading: Father of four had suffered mental health problems, say family

One suspects that had the attacker been a Muslim these might have been somewhat different. The press in this country disgusts me.

Sorry don't get your point? It's just factual, typical of the Times. Pretty common for press to quote family / neighbours to get insight on mental state of attacker.

[super_realist]

The Times headlines in response to today's terrorist attack.

Heading: Jobless 'lone wolf' held over attack on mosque
Sub-heading: Father of four had suffered mental health problems, say family

One suspects that had the attacker been a Muslim these might have been somewhat different. The press in this country disgusts me.

Well what would you call it? How isn't he a lone wolf?

Was Jo Cox's murderer a terrorist or just a loony loner?

Why does it even bother you how people are described in things like this. He's obviously a nutter, but no less a nutter than Muslim w.anchors who do this sort of thing. I doubt he left a jihadist video do you?

[beninho]

Jo Cox's murderer was clearly a terrorist. he used violence against someone he disagreed with. To say he was not a terrorist is wrong. This guy was also a terrorist. he may have been a lone wolf, but he obviously watched or read something to incite him into violence. It would be very unlikely that he woke up one morning and thought he would attempt to kill some Muslims.

There needs to be a clampdown on groups such as the EDL or Britain first, groups that incite hatred against muslims mainly or people different to themselves.

When a muslim causes an atrocity its all about cells and what caused him to do it, when this guy kills a muslim its all about mental health.

But you have crazy people everywhere, they just use different things to justify their actions.

[super_realist]

Terrorism to me would be something organised, with multiple people involved and which follows particular ideals.

I don't doubt this can be construed as a terrorist act by definition, but I don't see the guy so much as a terrorist, rather more a nutter. He's no Anders Breivik for example.

[beninho]

But then the Manchester bomber worked alone as far as I understand, no one else has been charged in connection with it. Same with the guy the got to westminster. both "lone wolfs" but clearly terrorists. They were brainwashed into carrying out an act of violence against people they do not agree with. Its exactly the same as the guy with the van. And how can you not say he was not organised, he hired a van with the intention of murdering muslims. It sounds pretty organised.

Its wrong to differentiate between terrorists.

[super_realist]

Perhaps, I do think there's a bit of a difference, rather than what appears to be "revenge" attack rather than someone brainwashed into an ideology and carrying out this horrible act in the name of a religion.

[beninho]

But surely he has been brainwashed into an ideology as he has the belief that muslims are evil and deserve to be killed, its also clearly in the name of religion because he hates a specific religion so much he attempts to murder them. I have not seen anything that its a revenge for, there is nothing to state that he was impacted by any muslims or extremists.

Its like the guy that nail bombed the gay pub in the late 90s, that was also a terrorist attack, though not specifically religiously motivated.

[super_realist]

Fair enough.
Can't see he did it in the name of religion though, just his own delusion that all muslims are dangerous instead of just stupid.

[Davie]

In the name of anti-religion perhaps - boils down to the same thing

[pedro]

So what's the difference btw terrorism and hate crime?

[super_realist]

In the name of anti-religion perhaps - boils down to the same thing

Still wrong. Nothing to suggest he was anti religion, might have been a Christian nutter for all you know.

[McLaren]

terrorism

(noun)

the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

How does this not cover what right wingers did to Joy Cox and the people outside finsbury park Mosque?


MFC/RAY

I agree with MFC on this one, do you really think Muslim terrorists get front page headlines exploring their family man background and possible mitigating health issues?


Super

You have to consider whether or not the ideology of neocons (eg Murray, Harris etc), EDL, BNP, UKIP and anti immigration #Brexit voters provide "justification" for terrorist attacks on Muslim communities. You are quick to repeat the claim that Islamic religious texts provide justification for attacks but you seem to have overlooked what the people/groups I have mentioned above say about minority groups.

[super_realist]

Mac, you'd have to be a moron to think harris and Murray are providing justification or are condoning terrorist attacks on muslim communities.

Harris and Murray haven't said anything which would even infer that attacking such a community could be condoned.

[McLaren]

[quote="super_realist"
Harris and Murray haven't said anything which would even infer that attacking such a community could be condoned. [/quote]

Are you saying what the write is just allegory?

[super_realist]

Why don't you actually give us quote seeing as you are so keen on evidence which shows they condone such acts?

They legitimately criticise religion and religious communities. At no time have they ever condoned violence.

[McLaren]

You think the EDL, BNP, vote leave, UKIP are just critiquing religious texts?

As for Murray and the neocons they are not stupid enough to literally say Muslims deserve attacking but they are engaged in some pretty serious dog whistle xenophobia.

[beninho]

What I have read, mainly on twitter so its not wholly reliable, is that as this guy is not dead, the press have to be more careful in what they put out.

[super_realist]

Mac, I'm not referring to EDL etc I was referring ONLY to Harris and Murray. I have no idea what EDL etc are saying about it.

Furthermore, being anti religion or anti muslim is perfectly reasonable, it is not xenophobia because islam is not a country.

If you can convert to something then when someone attacks its doctrine and sheer stupidity, it's got nothing to do with race, ethnicity or xenophobia.

[McLaren]

Fine, exchange xenophobia for Islamophobia in my post.

Would you agree that Murray et al in the neocon camp are spouting dog whistle Islamophobia?

[beninho]

Being anti religion is not perfectly reasonable if it leads someone to persecute people that are religious.

Being religious is not reasonable if it leads someone to cause harm to people that disagree.

People that are so far one way on both sides are basically the same. The vast majority of right minded people accept different people with different views, and get on with their lives pretty happily.

[super_realist]

No one said that's what being anti-religion is though.

[raycastleunited]

MFC/RAY

I agree with MFC on this one, do you really think Muslim terrorists get front page headlines exploring their family man background and possible mitigating health issues?

Of course they do. One of the first things published about the recent muslim terrorists was details of how many kids they had etc.

At this stage it's unclear whether the Finsbury Park attack was a hate crime or a political (and therefore terrorist) act. We don't know if he has a manifesto, objectives, idealogy etc. We do know it was a despicable act.

[McLaren]

For Ray

[super_realist]

So every media outlet has to use the same words you'd like used Mac?

[McLaren]

Not sure I said anywhere what I would like them to say, I was just providing some evidence to back up Ben's point that the attacks carried out by Islamists and right wingers were given different types of front page, as we can see in the Times example above.

[super_realist]

In your handpicked sample perhaps. I've seen plenty of TV and Radio reports describing it as a terrorist act.

So boo bloody hoo, a few newspapers report it differently from what you'd like. Hardly a crime is it?

[Diggers]

It's not just yesterday, it's more the repeated pattern of reporting, the press don't seem to report a lot of positive Muslim news, for instance any large marched against ISIS rarely get many column inches.
I have a friend who is a journalist and a Muslim. She has been working on a really positive Muslim led initiative in Bradford schools showing great integration. After the Manchester bombing she went to all the press, local and national (bearing in mind she's a former BBC local presenter so has contacts) and nobody would touch it. Seemed to me to be a good time to show a balance view, some positive news, apparently that wasn't what they wanted even as a smaller story.
Her view is that this is fairly common place and I'd have to agree.

[super_realist]

Positive things of any nature are rarely reported unless it's sport or local news who are struggling for actual newsworthy stories.
I'm not surprised that such a thing wasn't reported, maybe you'd see it in the hackneyed days of Trevor McDonald when he says "and finally......"

[Diggers]

Don't agree at all, newspapers have loads of stories like that and local BBC TV consists more or less entirely of that kind of story.

[super_realist]

That's what I said, it's more the preserve of crap news that no one watches.

The papers are full of Head Carpet Sniffer being the "hero" in the recent event, so what's your problem? That's a positive news story isn't it?

[Diggers]

Missing the point really, it doesn't matter if 10 people watch it (which is utter nonsense anyway), it's about the fact it isn't reported at all.
Didn't really have a great deal of choice on yesterday considering the amount of public footage.
Also, refer back to my first comment about it not being about yesterday but a pattern.

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