Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

He came across very poor as did fellow lib Clegg with his constant sniping at the Brexit issue.
Good riddance to both.Libs may well be a non entity now.
Tories have to proceed with caution now and build up some confidence again.

Our fire guy at work is telling us today that they really should have gone for a full evacuation at an early stage but that runs right against all previous policy putting residents and fire staff in potentially greater danger.In Blackadder terms it would have been going 'over the top'

[kwinigolfer]

. . . . As is Welshman John Charles.
At the other end of migration from Leeds (together with other detours) to Spain, of course, is Jonathan Woodgate!

[Diggers]

Beckham is the obvious choice, he did well at Real.

[Diggers]

Also, Man Utd and Barcelona had annouced that Beckham to Barca was a done deal, the move to Madrid was a late change.

[super_realist]

Beckham is the obvious choice, he did well at Real.

That rather proves the point. If you have to go back so long to Beckham (Woodgate and Owen didn't do very well) and McManaman before them then it's safe to say that there aren't many examples of British players doing well abroad, so why would foreign clubs risk it?

There's certainly a lot more failures than there is success stories. For every Brit who has done well abroad you could probably name 100 Spanish, French, Italian or German players.

[beninho]

You've got Becks, Macca, and BAle as three Brits that have done well abroad ( assuming you mean european big leagues) so lets have those 300 Spanish success stories

[JAS]

JAS, don't be silly.

Money AT THAT LEVEL isn't that important.

If money was the only or even the most important factor, then Neymar, Messi, Suarez, Griezzman, Nieur, Ronaldo would all be playing in the EPL if they have more money than all the teams they currently play for.

If you were offered £40million a year to play for Everton or £32 million to play for Barcelona, where would you play? You'd have so much money that you'd probably pick the bigger, more glamourous club despite losing £8m a year. It's nothing like comparing the wage bill of Raith Rovers with Real, don't be a plank.

I'm talking about the difference between what a footballer earns at Spurs or Chelsea being off put against what they are paid at Juve, PSG, Real, Barcelona, Dortmund, Munich etc.
Even if Spurs, Everton, Man U can pay more than those teams, it's not sufficient to get the best players here is it? If it was all about money, they'd all be in Middle East or China wouldn't they, as they have more money than the most over-rated league in the world.

Raith Rovers is a bloody stupid analogy.

Shall I extract tongue from cheek now?? :-p

[Diggers]

Beckham is the obvious choice, he did well at Real.

That rather proves the point. If you have to go back so long to Beckham (Woodgate and Owen didn't do very well) and McManaman before them then it's safe to say that there aren't many examples of British players doing well abroad, so why would foreign clubs risk it?

There's certainly a lot more failures than there is success stories. For every Brit who has done well abroad you could probably name 100 Spanish, French, Italian or German players.

What failures have there been since then? The fact they are not playing abroad doesn't mean they have failed abroad. List the high profile players since Beckham who have gone abroad and failed.
I can list an absolute stack of overseas players who have come to the Premier League and failed, literally scores of them. So what are we trying to prove exactly? It's patently clear that English players by and large are happy to stay at home, be it for money or culture or whatever. Surely we should be judging players on how they have performed after a big move, regardless of where the move is to.

[raycastleunited]

Beckham is the obvious choice, he did well at Real.

That rather proves the point. If you have to go back so long to Beckham (Woodgate and Owen didn't do very well) and McManaman before them then it's safe to say that there aren't many examples of British players doing well abroad, so why would foreign clubs risk it?

There's certainly a lot more failures than there is success stories. For every Brit who has done well abroad you could probably name 100 Spanish, French, Italian or German players.

That doesn't prove any point. Hardly any British players have gone abroad since Beckham, the only one I can think of is Bale, and he's done rather well. I can't think of any failures at all in the last few years, can you provide some examples?

Incidentally, Owen did pretty well at Madrid when he was fit enough to play, he just had a torrid time with injuries.

[super_realist]

Exactly, so why would a foreign club actively try to recruit players from a country where they routinely don't move from?

Failures? Owen wasn't great due to injuries, ditto Gazza, Woodgate, Gauld hasn't been great at Lisbon, Burke has been half decent at Leipzig. Cole was abject at Roma,  Ince and Rush weren't good in Italy. Collymore was a disaster in Spain, Pennant, Barton, Joe Cole, Micah Richards etc etc etc. The very fact you have to go back over 20 years to find a sufficient number of players makes the point that it's not worth trying to buy British players, and why would you when they aren't as good as the other Spanish, German, Italian and French players? Even some Scandi's , Czech's and Croat's have been at this transition.

Do you really have to go back to Hughes, Lineker, Hoddle, Hately and Lambert? Why would any club take a risk?

Bottom line is that British players haven't got either a history of going abroad to play, and the ones that have gone, have rarely settled.

[beninho]

Ince was good in Italy, he had two years was subjected to racial abuse and left because he wanted to return home, not because they wanted to sell him.

But its hardly a bombshell to say British players rarely go abroad. The recent ones Cole, Richards, Barton all went on loan anyway, and never had a level of permanence about them.

There has loads of spaniards fail in the premier league, some very expensive ones it doesnt mean anything.

[Diggers]

Right, so we can't use examples from 10 years ago, but you can go back 20 odd years? Gazza when he played and was fit was adored by Lazio fans, I think he was recently voted their favorite overseas signing. Ince did not fail in Italy, not even close.
How are the recent names you have mentioned high profile, none of those players was starting at their English clubs, they were all on the way down. If Joe Cole had moved in his prime and failed you might have an argument, as it is you are just talking out of your backside again.
But again, judge English player who have moved for big money on that move. If it happens to be to the Premier League so what.

[super_realist]

The point is though that English players have a ridiculous premium on them, despite them not being as good (in most cases) as cheaper foreign players, so unless you're a Man City where money doesn't matter (and you buy them to stop your competition having them) then why would foreign teams buy them?

[Diggers]

Nobody is saying foreign teams should buy them, especially when the players patently don't particularly have a desire to go. The only one banging on about that is you.

[McLaren]

Super

As a free market guy (something all Douglas Murray disciples are) would you care to take a guess at what inefficiency exists in the market for players that means market forces have not provided an equilibrium price for English players?

[beninho]

Does any disagree that not just English players but successful premier league players cost a lot of money? I doubt it.

Does anyone disagree that the premier league is the richest league in the world, and even relegation threatened teams pay players more than the majority of the spanish, french , german or italian leagues, again i doubt it.

Can you get cheaper players from abroad, yes are they better then the English players, not always. Man City have spent 50m on Walker an established premier league player, and one of the best full backs in the league. Barcelona have spent 30m on a young portugese player, and Arsenal refused to sell them Bellerin. Juventus are asking 60m for alex sandro, and madrid have sold their reserve full back to man city for 26m. The Walker fee is a lot, but not ridiculous compared to others.

And regards to English players going abroad, they dont have a history of it, and as mentioned a lot, probably dont need to, as they have financial security playing in the premier league.

[super_realist]

I agree, it's not just English players that are expensive, but it's mainly English players who are valued to an absurd level and who don't interest other big clubs outside of this insular league.

Once again, there is financial security playing in Germany, France, Spain and Italy. It might be a reason for English players staying in Britain, but it isn't an excuse. If they cared about "financial security" they'd go and play in China for 3 years and never have to play again.

British players just don't have enough ambition, they are happy to be journeymen.

[Diggers]

Why do they've need an excuse? Let's have a look at the likes of Gerrard, Rooney, Lampard, Carrick, Ferdinand.
Those journeymen have won multiple domestic honours and Chanpions Leagues staying at home. You have no clue as to whether overseas clubs wanted them or not, who cares, they had massive success for clubs here.
Also, you bang on about Bale as being worth the money. His first 3 years at Spurs were a disaster, Man Utd fans were laughing at the thought of signing him as an attacking full back. His price tag came on the back of one stellar season, if he was English you'd have mocked his first years at Spurs and the subsequent price tag and still be saying he hadn't lived up to his potential.
But you probably dont know because you make an absolute litany of errors concerning players stats (for example Alli and before that Sterling) and success at overseas clubs.
In short, you have some opinions, which is fine, but clearly no real understanding or depth of knowledge about the game.

[super_realist]

That was ever such a long time ago Diggers.
What's the excuse for the current crop? No English team has challenged in ages and if they're so much richer than all the others, how can this be?. Why are English players so content to stay at teams which can't win them the big ones? Isn't that just being mercenary and settling for being at a good domestic team? Where's their ambition, and doesn't this lazy attitude pervade into the national team?


People make a point of Westwood not winning a major, or Monty not winning in America. English footballers failure to perform on the biggest stage is the point here and it's even worse because at least Westwood and Monty actually have tried to ply their games abroad in the biggest environs. English players like to be big fish in a small pond, but don't appear to have the bottle (or skill) to play for a top team. Gerrard is a case in point. Absolute bottler. Probably the only English player who a really top club would actually want, but he stayed at a backward club like Liverpool. Just one Champions League and two decades of disappointment for him.

I didn't say Bale was worth the money at any point, I said at least he was probably the best player in Europe (or very close) at the time (and he's backed that up). You can't say the same for Walker/Shaw/Sterling/Stones.

So suggesting Alli would break the world record transfer is really stupid, when he's not even considered the best player in England, let alone Europe. I doubt even Kane would come close to breaking that record, and he's the best English player by a mile.

If you were a multi millionaire, what would you do? I can't imagine anyone here would stay at dross like Liverpool or Arsenal if they could go to Munich, Juve, PSG, Real, Barcelona etc, and if they aren't good enough to go there, then they're ridiculous value needs to be reduced.

[Diggers]

Bale had a good season, at that point that was it. 31 out of 42 premier league goals for Spurs in one year..and Spurs won nothing. But that makes him the best in Europe at the time?
Are you going to actually admit that you didn't have a clue about how good Ali's stats actually are and how much he had played? The PFA young player 2 years in a row. Do you understand how difficult the position he plays is? He is already far more prolific than Silva has ever been and at his age is well ahead of Coutinho who is massively rated.
European football is always cyclical, and in Barca and Real there have been 2 amazing teams with Munich close behind.
Judge Walker and Stones at the end of this season, if they do well and win things why does it matter a jot if that's here or abroad?

[beninho]

If you cant understand that if alli was available for transfer this window he would be no.less then 100m you dont understand football. Taking into account current fees, contract status, age, and proven premier league performance. If Mbappe is rated at 120m then alli may be more.

What team do you support s.r?

[JAS]

If you cant understand that if alli was available for transfer this window he would be no.less then 100m you dont understand football. Taking into account current fees, contract status, age, and proven premier league performance. If Mbappe is rated at 120m then alli may be more.

What team do you support s.r?

From memory...Dundee Utd?? Hey, remember when they won the SPL, beat Barcelona in the Nou Camp and got to a UEFA cup final??

[super_realist]

If you cant understand that if alli was available for transfer this window he would be no.less then 100m you dont understand football. Taking into account current fees, contract status, age, and proven premier league performance. If Mbappe is rated at 120m then alli may be more.

What team do you support s.r?

From memory...Dundee Utd?? Hey, remember when they won the SPL, beat Barcelona in the Nou Camp and got to a UEFA cup final??

I did support them as a child. I have no allegiance any more.

[super_realist]

Bale had a good season, at that point that was it. 31 out of 42 premier league goals for Spurs in one year..and Spurs won nothing. But that makes him the best in Europe at the time?
Are you going to actually admit that you didn't have a clue about how good Ali's stats actually are and how much he had played? The PFA young player 2 years in a row. Do you understand how difficult the position he plays is? He is already far more prolific than Silva has ever been and at his age is well ahead of Coutinho who is massively rated.
European football is always cyclical, and in Barca and Real there have been 2 amazing teams with Munich close behind.
Judge Walker and Stones at the end of this season, if they do well and win things why does it matter a jot if that's here or abroad?

My point is that not wanting to play at the highest level for the true elite clubs is a lack of ambition.

If they were as good as you say then why aren't these teams tripping over themselves to sign them? No one else was in for Walker.

If Alli was rated as much as you say then teams like Barca and Real would be putting the carrot in front of Spurs' nose to test their resolve as they did with Ronaldo, Neymar, Suarez etc.

I'm not doubting he's a good player with good stats, but good stats don't always transfer well to foreign teams especially when the EPL isn't the best quality. He might be good, especially by the low English standards, but he seems to only be wanted in England by English clubs. Doesn't that strike you as odd if he's potentially the most expensive player in world history?

[beninho]

Its good supporting a little team Super, embrace the Arabs again. I support Wycombe we are usually rubbish, but i would not swap it for anything. Even diggers has Sunderland...

[super_realist]

Ben, I haven't been to see them for ages. I would rather be on the golf course than watch the turgid wretchedness of Scottish Football. The standard is so poor, the lack of skill, tactics or any sort of entertainment means I might as well set fire to the gate money.

I've been to a couple of Internationals and Aberdeen games in the past but freezing your arse off to watch 22 thickos spit and swear and scuff balls all over the place isn't my idea of fun.

[beninho]

There has been constant rumours about Real Madrid wanting dele alli, they have had Roberto Carlos and Gareth Bale out saying he would be a great signing, there are also reports that Barcelona are considering a bid for him especially if they sell Neymar. They may be rumours, but they would be getting the information from somewhere.

[super_realist]

Well, I look forward to seeing Alli being sold for £100m and proving me wrong then.

Somehow I don't think he'll get any further than being yet another Man City player.

[Diggers]

You've already been proved wrong by not having a clue about his actual career thus far.

[super_realist]

I've not been proven wrong at all. I've been subject to other peoples opinions, as you have to mine.

I said he's played a few dozen games, which he has. 70 in the top flight. I didn't say anything else about his ability, other than he's not especially in demand and that it's pretty ridiculous to expect anyone to buy him for a world record fee.

[beninho]

Views on Mbappe?

[super_realist]

Probably a guy with decent prospects.

[beninho]

Barcelona offered 72m for Coutinho, does tghat make him an elite player, playing in the premier league?

Would you say the 120m valuation being put on Mbappe is more worth it then Dele Alli?

[Diggers]

I've not been proven wrong at all. I've been subject to other peoples opinions, as you have to mine.

I said he's played a few dozen games, which he has. 70 in the top flight. I didn't say anything else about his ability, other than he's not especially in demand and that it's pretty ridiculous to expect anyone to buy him for a world record fee.

Unbelievable. Whatever.

[Davie]

I didn't say anything else about his ability, other than he's not especially in demand and that it's pretty ridiculous to expect anyone to buy him for a world record fee.

You've obviously not been paying attention. I expect him to be sold - almost certainly to Barca or RM within the next 12 months .. and maybe not a world record fee, but close

[super_realist]

Barcelona offered 72m for Coutinho, does tghat make him an elite player, playing in the premier league?

Would you say the 120m valuation being put on Mbappe is more worth it then Dele Alli?

No, until valuations are met, they're just hearsay. I don't expect Mbappe to go for £120m anymore than I expect Alli to go for £100m

[Diggers]

Maybe he'll go for 100 million, its not that much, just a few dozen million.

[beninho]

Its widely reported that Monaco refused 120m euros from Real Madrid, and Arsenal linked with spending over 100m for him. I dont think he will go this summer though. As Monaco have already flogged enough to cover themselves for a year. Making 70 odd mil on two players already with the full back going for 50m to Man City a probability and Arsenal watching another player for 40mil plus.

[Diggers]

I see Jamie Lovemark has gone round in a few dozen shots today....

[dynamark]

I trust you will all be watching Leicester v Liverpool this afternoon.Very please with the guy Iborra we got from Spain looks like an enforcer and Mahrez bless is making a huge effort to get himself a tp price move to Europe.
And the golf is on as well

[beninho]

£160m for Mbappe then, if the Spanish press are to be believed. Though that includes the add ons. What price Dele Alli now!

[navyblueshorts]

£160m for Mbappe then, if the Spanish press are to be believed. Though that includes the add ons. What price Dele Alli now!

Let's see the money then...

[raycastleunited]

You know there is too much money in the Premier League when Kyle Walker is being bought for £50m.

Full backs are highly sought after in the modern game. £27m for Danilo who was in Real Madrid's reserves and £49m for Mendy who has a couple of seasons experience in France. Kyle Walker is looking like great value now, considering he has consistently performed well in the Premier League for Spurs for several seasons now.

[beninho]

Good point on full backs ray, marcos alonso cost Chelsea 26m,. Its such a pivotol position in modern football, apart from with mourinho who still doesnt like them going past the halfway line!

[raycastleunited]

I should also add that Kyle Walker was outstanding at QPR in the Championship a few years ago. He really stood out. That is a true test, because playing for QPR usually has the effect of making great players rubbish.

[navyblueshorts]

Good point on full backs ray, marcos alonso cost Chelsea 26m,.  Its such a pivotol position in modern football, apart from with mourinho  who still doesnt like them going past the halfway line!

True, but what would Mourinho know? He's never won anything as a Manager has he?

[navyblueshorts]

I should also add that Kyle Walker was outstanding at QPR in the Championship a few years ago. He really stood out. That is a true test, because playing for QPR usually has the effect of making great players rubbish.

[Diggers]

Alonso is an interesting player, Grandad played for Real and Spain, Dad played for Athletico Madrid and Barca and Spain. Alonso hasn't had a full cap yet but must be close, 3 generations of internationals for a major country must be pretty rare.
He'd had a stop start career but you could tell at Sunderland he was a cut above, far more cultured than your average modern bomber full back, a proper footballer.

[McLaren]

Didn't Alonso run someone over then dodge a prison sentence. Maybe he wouldn't be the most popular pick for the national team?

[Roller_Coaster]

I should also add that Kyle Walker was outstanding at QPR in the Championship a few years ago. He really stood out. That is a true test, because playing for QPR usually has the effect of making great players rubbish.

As a fan also I feel I must point out that it also makes good, adequate and merely poor players rubbish also!

Except goalies. We seem to get a good stock of them periodically.

Must be the extra practise they get

[beninho]

You have a decent one in Matt Ingram, he just can't seem to get a game.

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