England vs South Africa - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?

[jimbohammers]

A good win. Still a little concerned that Root didn't declare earlier

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

A good win. Still a little concerned that Root didn't declare earlier

I've seen this a few places now and am still a little bemused as to why people thought England needed to declare earlier?

[dummy_half]

A good win. Still a little concerned that Root didn't declare earlier

With Olly on this - the match was over half way through the afternoon session on the last day, so the declaration was plenty early enough.

Ben Stokes was asked about this after the match, and said that Jimmy and Broad don't really like just bowling a couple of overs each before a break and would rather have a few in a row to find some rhythm. As such, declaring at tea made sense, almost regardless of the score.

Talk of declaring at lunch was commentary box fantasy only, and not going to happen in the real world, where pragmatism means you put enough runs on the board that losing is essentially impossible.

[NickisBHAFC]

Couldn't agree more with Olly.

[Jetty]

Squad for the 4th Test

Joe Root
Moeen Ali
James Anderson
Jonathan Bairstow
Gary Ballance
Stuart Broad
Alastair Cook
Liam Dawson
Steven Finn
Keaton Jennings
Toby Roland-Jones
Ben Stokes

No Westley or Malan. Dawson and Ballance will play.
6 bowlers again

[alfie]

Where you getting this , Jetty ?

Squad I'm seeing is unchanged from this Test . Finn and Dawson plus the XI that played. No Ballance.

I do note some alarming comments from Bayliss about not being sure they need so many batsmen and that they might play another spinner elsewhere...I really hope that is just smokescreen.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

England Squad for 4th Investec Test:

Joe Root (Yorkshire, captain)
Moeen Ali (Worcestershire)
James Anderson (Lancashire)
Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Alastair Cook (Essex)
Liam Dawson (Hampshire)
Steven Finn (Middlesex)
Keaton Jennings (Durham)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Toby Roland-Jones (Middlesex)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Tom Westley (Essex)

[Gooseberry]

Alfie ...cricinfo is carrying an article entitled " Bayliss remains unconvinced of need for 8 batsmen".

First thing on that ... the rest of the world remains unconvinced that 7 bowlers and 2-3 part time options are required.

This also presumes that both Moeen and Stokes are genuine batsmen rather than decent all rounders. And indeed that the actual proper batsmen are good enough to warrant that claim. And that Bairstow can bat in the top 6 without it affecting his keeping. And that theres a second spinner available who brinsg something to the table.

Continuing to select players like Dawson who are neither batsmen nor bowlers just out of a dogmatic belief that England dont need so much batting depth is utter insanity. And not borne out against the scores theyve made; the side has struggled for runs and been hugely reliant on Root and Cook for a couple of years. The occassional big scores from Stokes dont hide that he still has a pretty feeble overall record for a top 6 bat..averaging in the mid 30's. They still havent found a second opener and Westley is far from established at 3. Ballance has been lurching form one disaster to another and Malan hasnt exactly made the best of his chance. 

So yes you could argue the same logic that applies to Dawson...stop selecting batsmen just to pad the side out whne theya re all rubbish, but they do need at least 5 proper gron up bats and arent going to get them unless some are selected.


Back to he article. Bayliss has said it was a horses for courses selection, as per the first test. A seamers wicket meant they wanted some extra depth incase SA made early inroads and they wanted a seam heavy attack. TRJ prospered in exactly the sort of conditions youd expect a standard county bowler to do.
It states that hes hinting at a return to a 2 spinner 4 seamer attack for Old Trafford (obvious question would be since when has old trafford not been a county seamers paradise?)

He also talks up Westley and TRJ, understandably. Jennings and Malan both look to be in a fragile positions if there is a change.

But Dawson. If youre going to pick two spinners make it the best thats available, rather than comprimising for someone who can bat a bit. Either England do need the extra batting depth or they dont. Dawson is a halfway non decision. If they dont trust Leach then trust Moeen and trust the seamers on seamers picthes and dont think of going to the Ashes with 2 spinners (and a 3rd option in Root).

[KP_fan]

Would love to see a well fought test match
the India-Lanka and the 3 tests between SA-Eng have all been one sided

the last test is in Manchester....Will Eng bring back Liam Dawson?
and will Ind play a 3rd spinners in Colombo

[Jetty]

Where you getting this , Jetty ?

Squad I'm seeing is unchanged from this Test .  Finn and Dawson plus the XI that played.  No Ballance.

I do note some alarming comments from Bayliss about not being sure they need so many batsmen and that they might play another spinner elsewhere...I really hope that is just smokescreen.  

Sorry. The ECB had that squad yesterday and they must have changed it late last night. I thought it was strange when I saw it.

[alfie]

Hi Goose ...I see we are very much in agreement  - Bayliss less so

It is that suggestion of his that the selection for this match was unusual in requiring extra batting that really bothers me : does he seriously think that having just 4 players picked for their batting alone and filling up with additional bowlers - or extra wicketkeepers as he tried in India ! - is a good idea for the majority of Tests ?  
Sure we are blessed by a number of good bowlers who can also perform with the bat , and a keeper good enough to bat at least six : but why should that mean we need a self-imposed handicap of leaving out one batsman for a spare spin bowler who is neither needed nor more than marginally good enough at this level ?
As you say : if you absolutely have to cover all possible conditions ( perhaps TB showed that indeed they haven't a clue about how to judge a pitch in advance !) then surely you would select a spinner who is worth his place for spin bowling itself...if one exists.
I am not altogether against trying a wrist spinner - or even a prolific county wicket taking finger spinner - in addition to Moeen , in the right conditions. But if you are going to do that , surely you have the courage of your convictions and leave out the third (or fourth) seamer ?
It all looks like either (a ) reluctance to make a choice in the makeup of the attack.  (b) Desperation to include all the big names among the bowling group even when conditions don't suit them or (c) some weird ideological argument that having a batsman as good as Moeen at eight is somehow "wrong"

Hey they got away such with an unbalanced XI at Lord's (but not at TB - or Chennai , or Mohali ....etc etc) and they might get away with it next week at Old Trafford if they're lucky.  But I'm pretty damned sure they won't get away with it in Brisbane or Perth or Adelaide in a few months...

And that brings me to to my other big complaint with not filling all the batting spots . The pace bowling pool is pretty well filled (sure you can always do better , etc - but right now they could select five or six pace men for the Ashes tour with a reasonable expectation they wouldn't disgrace themselves) and with Moeen always on hand selecting a couple of possible second spinners for the trip (at least handy for net practice) won't be too hard : but unless they can identify at least one - and hopefully two  - very solid batting prospects before they leave Heathrow for Australia then they might as well send the urn out in a post bag and save the players' airfares... It is essential that prospective bats like Westley , Jennings (?) Stoneman ? Malan play enough matches that they can show one way or another whether or not they have what it takes. Cannot leave it all to Cook Root and a bunch of all rounders.

Apologies for the rant - and I do know the Ashes isn't everything - but it is still Big. And in any case I maintain that "orthodox" team selection is more likely to win the homes series in the meantime.

[Gooseberry]

Yep very much my thoughts Alfie.

Id also look at whether Ali and Stokes should really be defined as batsmen. Bairstow I can accept.
Both Ali and Stokes capable of making big scores but more often than not fail to get going. They obviously have some talent but are both averging in the mid 30s.
They may not want to but England rely on Moeen bowling more than they do his batting, although its actually Stokes that has the better bowling figures and poorer batting ones yet his batting position is higher and you could take him out of the bowling attack without feeling there was a massive hole. 

Really though Englands problem comes from having a lack of real star bowlers and only 2 top class batsmen. What they have instead is 3 strong all rounders (including Bairstow) and a number of decent bowlers who can bat pretty well. 

And then theres Dawson.

[LionsV2]

I've always preferred the more classical England set up of a team; five batsmen, three seamers, wicketkeeper, spinner and an all rounder.

[VTR]

Agree with all the above. Bairstow seems to bat so much better at 7 than 5 as well. Probably because at 5 he's typically been coming in about an hour and half after keeping. He also bats well with the tail if it comes to that.

Stokes and Ali are absolutely hot and cold players with the bat and probably always will be

I do wonder about Bayliss, I don't think he has a clue to be honest and would rather he coached the limited overs stuff and we found a Test coach who actually watched a few 4 day matches

[CaledonianCraig]

People here (posting) have a far better knowledge of county cricket than me but here is my take on the team and perhaps reasoning behind selections and my opinion.

Firstly, Cook is a nailed on cert and has been the rock in England's batting line-up for so long now so his selection is imperative.

Jennings just does not do it for me. It is clear he is having issues at this level and has already had too many flops to persevere with. Sure he has has one century and a fifty but I'd say century came when bowlers perhaps had to work out the best way to bowl to him. He has flaws and seems like he is still trying to iron them out but will he ever? I'd sooner have seen him dropped for Oval and give someone else a run against a really decent attack where they'd be truly tested. My concern is that if Jennings fails at Old Trafford and axed then the replacement brought in could quite easily flatter to deceive against the Windies whose attack is weaker and kid selectors into believing they have the man for the job in Australia which could be a fatal mistake.

Westley did quite well at The Oval so deserves another shot above Ballance anyway. However, again, he seems to have flaws. To me seemed a bit one-dimensional in wanting to play all his shots on the off-side even when it wasn't possible. He needs to work on that and be able to play on the onside with greater comfort. Mentally, seems quite strong.

Root take cares of itself really. At Old Trafford he could break through the 5,000 run mark at Test level and be one of the youngest to do that.

Malan still has to prove himself at this level. Bowled by a superb yorker in first innings and in second innings was in a tricky position where he had to forego playing more conservatively as the onus was on to chase quick runs. I don't know enough about him at county level to judge so I need to see more before I can judge him.

Stokes is now an important part of the side. He contributes in all areas. With the bat he is one of the quickest scorers in the game once he gets going and can change the match with these knocks. With the ball I'd like to see him weigh in with a few more wickets as he does look capable of better figures than he currently has. In the field he is a fantastic catcher and dynamic fielder. He just needs to reign himself in mentally at times as can get carried away. It is hard to judge what category he comes into. A batsman? Hmm not until he can push his average up to around the 40 mark. Not an out and out bowler as doesn't get enough wickets. All-rounder probably best suits and has the potential to supass Flintoff who many fans seem to have rated highly.

Bairstow is also an important part of the side now. Much improved with the gloves and I like that he can bat in various circumstances. He can be obdurate and grind out a high score if needs be but has the ability to score quickly as well if needs be and playing very attacking. The wicket-keeper slot is now his for the forseeable future.

Ali is doing an admirable job as the stand-in spinner. For all he is not a specialist in that area he weighs in with a fair few wickets - now well past 100 at test level. He can weigh in with crucial runs as well. An important member in the side now. Is there a spinner specialist out there who could return as many wickets at test level? I'd like to think so but others tried in recent times suggest not. He has cemented his place in the side now.

Roland-Jones had a dream debut at the Oval. Bowled like an old hand at test level ripping the heart out of the Saffers top order and getting a five wicket haul in the first innings and weighing in with almost 50 runs with the bat. Like was said though it will be interesting to see how he copes on a less helpful pitch and how he goes about getting wickets in those circumstances. However, with that debut he could already have sealed himself a spot on the plane to Australia.

Broad is still a pivotal part in England's bowling attack although would be good to see him discover his mojo with the bat as well. Closing in on passing Ian Botham's wicket total for England.

Anderson is still the lynchpin in the attack but of late the wickets have not been pouring in so readily and at 35 England need to start thinking about the post-Anderson era. Will still be key in Australia and nailed on starter.

Those in the pecking order for places in the team (in my eyes) are Mark Wood, Chris Woakes, Liam Plunkett, Steve Finn and Adil Rashid with the ball as am yet to be convinced by Liam Dawson. As for the batting then that is the worry. Ballance still does not convince me at present so other options have to be looked at but my lack of any great knowledge of county cricket I won't go throwing names about.

Well that's my thoughts and sorry for rambling.

[Gooseberry]

Seems a fair summary Craig.

The other two bats to mention are:
Stoneman ...who was favourite to partner cook after impressing for the Lions but Bayliss hadnt bothered watching play ( yes really)
..and Hameed. Could they take a punt on him again after he showed early promise regardless of his county form? He was a desperstion selection in the first place.

Its also worth noting that both Foakes and Garton have been training with England which suggests the selectors see them as fringe possibles.

Andersons actually been doing OK for wickets over the last year, considering the winter was on pitches that didnt suit him. I do wonder if the Ashes will be his swan song though.

[GSC]

Don't see how you could realistically take Jennings to Aus, be a bloodbath

[JDizzle]

Only think I comment on Craig is you assessment of Westley - I don't know whether you mistyped, but Westley is a very dominant leg side player (think it was something like 70% of his CC runs this year were through the leg side) and it'll be interesting to see how he copes to sides just plugging away in that channel outside off stump. In his test he had large periods of slow scoring when they did (20 off 80 IIRC on the 4th morning) so it will be interesting to see how he counters this. Looks to have a good temperament though and just passes the eyeball test as a Test player.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Only think I comment on Craig is you assessment of Westley - I don't know whether you mistyped, but Westley is a very dominant leg side player (think it was something like 70% of his CC runs this year were through the leg side) and it'll be interesting to see how he copes to sides just plugging away in that channel outside off stump. In his test he had large periods of slow scoring when they did (20 off 80 IIRC on the 4th morning) so it will be interesting to see how he counters this. Looks to have a good temperament though and just passes the eyeball test as a Test player.

I was going to say this too - think Craig just mistyped on this one. Westley reminds me of Trott when playing through the legside, very fluent. He struggles down the ground/extra cover from what I saw this test, looked ok cutting the ball.

[CaledonianCraig]

Yes sorry about that. He has to be more three dimensional on his shots. Seems pretty good mentally but he has to be able to be proficient on the offside as well as onside shots.

[Jetty]

I find this strange ...

Evening Standard
'They refused to call Moeen their No 1 spinner, even though all evidence says he is. After the defeat at Trent Bridge, when England's flimsy batting was exposed, Bayliss admitted he was reluctant to include another specialist batsman because it would risk upsetting Moeen. Essentially, England have adjusted both their batting and bowling plans to keep Moeen happy and, they hope, bring the best from him'.

[Gooseberry]

When was that published Jetty? It matches the pre series comments and follows what Bayliss said after this game.
Second spinner...if we accpet that argument it has to be one whos actually better than Moeen. And ofr me the only real candidate is Leach whos had a good run in the CC, but seems to be sitting out the T20s.

When do the CC fixtures start up again? Weather allowing it could be a chance for several fringe players to press a case....not just Leach.
Stoneman made a big score on his last CC game after being left out by England ..and has just failed twice in T20, otherwise twiddling thumbs. Hameed made a century in his last second XI game and hopefully is due a return to the first team and form.

[Jetty]

When was that published Jetty? It matches the pre series comments and follows what Bayliss said after this game.
Second spinner...if we accpet that argument it has to be one whos actually better than Moeen. And ofr me the only real candidate is Leach whos had a good run in the CC, but seems to be sitting out the T20s.

When do the CC fixtures start up again? Weather allowing it could be a chance for several fringe players to press a case....not just Leach.
Stoneman made a big score on his last CC game after being left out by England ..and has just failed twice in T20, otherwise twiddling thumbs. Hameed made a century in his last second XI game and hopefully is due a return to the first team and form.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/cricket/the-big-question-now-is-can-moeen-ali-produce-more-magic-down-under-a3601201.html

CC games start on Sunday

[LivinginItaly]

Has anyone seen the weather forecast for the duration of the game. I know it's Manchester but is there any chance of a rain free game.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England win the toss and bat first and are unchanged

SA bring in De Bruyn and Olivier for Morris and Philander. Going back to the 4 bowler strategy

[Afro]

I know it's Manchester but is there any chance of a rain free game.

I feel you answered your own question there

[sirfredperry]

England now have a great chance, having won the toss and batting first - with no Philander for SA.

[Afro]

A whole day of cricket. England v SA warm up today and then the main course of Somerset in Bristol tonight

[alfie]

Early notes : common sense prevailed at the England selection table ; SA without Philander opting to strengthen their batting - in so far as De Bruyn can be said to do - certainly he lengthens it ...that should just about guarantee him a hundred
Jennings hasn't made a duck.
SA really should have a bat-pad in.
Aleem Dar's beard is thriving.

And it isn't raining.

[Gooseberry]

Yep I think this was the correct way to go bith for this match and the long term development of the side.
Jennings needs a decent game, otherwise there will be a lot of pressure coming from Stoneman and Hameed for his spot.
Malan too could do with contributing something.

With Philander and Morris out England should be expected to cruise this game. Should.
Of course that in itself would still leave questions over Jennings even if he does make a 50 against a massively weakened attack.

[alfie]

Not easy batting early on today...lot of movement for the bowlers but you'd think it is a case of seeing off Morkel and Rabada and things ought to get easier.

I see the club has put Jimmy Anderson into the pantheon of cricketing gods by naming the pavilion end after him - unusual move to so honour a man who is still playing ! Hope this doesn't mean he is intending to hang up the boots ...I certainly haven't noticed any suggestion that he was losing his relish for the game yet.
Statham and Anderson ...not a bad combination

[GSC]

Unfortunately I think Jennings only has 1 more innings to go in this spell of test cricket. Would be a bloodbath in Aus

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Mitchell or Hameed?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Mitchell or Hameed?

Mitchell?

[GSC]

I suspect Hameeb though he's not in any better form

[dummy_half]

IIRC, Hameed made some runs in a second XI match last week, so hopefully can start to rebuild some confidence. Obviously some CC runs would be a necessity before he gets near a Test recall.

As an aside, I see England have brought up their 50 and Extras is still to get off the mark.

[dummy_half]

And my above comment led me to the following page:

https://www.sportskeeda.com/cricket/rare-records-test

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

67-1 at lunch. Good session that, SA bowled well but England have dug in, and you'd hope are getting through the toughest period of the match. Hopefully Cook/Westley can carry on after lunch, and our more fluent players can benefit from the tired bowling attack later in the day...

[dummy_half]

So lunch comes - 29 overs in the session, so over rate not bad (I note the drinks break seemed to take well over 5 minutes). Only 67 runs for the loss of Jennings, so pretty attritional, but the run rate is likely to improve as the ball gets older, bowlers more tired and the middle order gets in.

As for Jennings, in some ways it's more galling to be batting for almost an hour and then getting out - he'd just about got in and should have been starting to think about compiling an innings. I have more sympathy when you get out in the first 10 or so minutes before you're set. One innings to save his test career (at least in the short term).

[alfie]

67/1. For a moment or two there I thought we were going to see thirty overs bowled before lunch
But a bit of physio work and sawdusting took care of that...

England will be pleased to lose only one in that first session...ball was nibbling about. Cook in his element ; Westley again impressing with his calmness - even when he is beaten , or just held scoreless for a while , he doesn't seem to get flustered. And he usually doesn't fail to cash in when he gets a loose one...continues to be a promising start to a career.
Maharaj has started well again. Might have a busy afternoon so I hope for SA sake that niggle he had isn't anything to worry about.

[LondonTiger]

Mitchell or Hameed?

Mitchell?

My guess would be Daryl Mitchell, who is doing ok in teh second division but at almost 35 and with a career average under 40 unlikely to be on the selectors radar.

[Gooseberry]

Jennings would get in the Sri Lanka side.

[Gooseberry]

IIRC, Hameed made some runs in a second XI match last week, so hopefully can start to rebuild some confidence. Obviously some CC runs would be a necessity before he gets near a Test recall.

As an aside, I see England have brought up their 50 and Extras is still to get off the mark.

Yep hence why I was asking about the when CC returned. Both Hameed and Stoneman have a chance to press their cases ahead of the Windies tests. Jennings is going to have to pull a blinder in the second innings to convince anyone hes worth persisting with.....despite all the talk of consistency in selection.
Westley conversely is continuing to have done just enough to offer promise without actually having really done anything yet.

[LivinginItaly]

Big next session coming up. Hopefully they can continue and gradually increase the scoring rate as the ball becomes softer and the 4 man attack starts to tire. 170 - 2 would be an excellent score for England at tea.

[sirfredperry]

Yes, only one down at lunch is good. Can't help thinking that for home Tests, it's much more fun being an England bowler than an England batsman. The likes of Jennings, Westley and Malan are up against it, while someone like T R-J can come straight in to the side in helpful conditions.

[dummy_half]

Goose

A little harsh on Westley - a composed 20-odd in difficult conditions and a 50 in your first test is a very decent start. Not everyone gets a big ton first out, and indeed several players who have show that they were flattering to deceive.

I think the main thing though is that he looks like he has the temperament of a top order Test batsman - doesn't mind if he's not feeling the bat on the ball much, and will wait for the bad ball or for the bowlers to come to him. Exactly how Cook has played for a decade, and if he's half the player cook has been, he's a solid long term option.

[LivinginItaly]

I agree Westley looks like he could be a solution for the number three position. Just a little worried about what might happen against a high quality pace attack that gives him nothing to hot on the leg side. However, he seems to have a lot of patience and composure, but could maybe get bogged down too much.

Just need to find a decent opener.

[Gooseberry]

To clarify what I was driving at re Westley:

Theres been a host of players come in englands top 3 and do well in one or two innings only to fade badly and dissapear.
It may seem harsh critique of Westley but the scores he has made to date arent so earth shattetingly good as to nail down a spot for years ....or indeed sustained enough to be meaningful.
The plaudits seem more about how hes looked thsn what hes done so far.

[alfie]

To clarify what I was driving at re Westley:

Theres been a host of players come in englands top 3 and do well in one or two innings only to fade badly and dissapear.
It may seem harsh critique of Westley but the scores he has made to date arent so earth shattetingly good as to nail down a spot for years ....or indeed sustained enough to be meaningful.
The plaudits seem more about how hes looked thsn what hes done so far.

Hey give him a chance Goose ...it's only been two innings ! Think all we are saying so far is he looks the part.

Which Jennings , for example , doesn't.

Meanwhile Cook gets out ...good bowling Maharaj but that wicket came as a real surprise : Cook looked as if he booked in for bed and breakfast.

Important Westley stays with Root now...

[LivinginItaly]

A good opportunity for Westley to really stake a claim for the number three spot here, especially now with the dismissal of Cook it's important that he plays the anchor role allowing the more attacking players to play their natural game

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