England vs South Africa - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?

[LionsV2]

Roots ability to play no shots and still accumulate runs is quite special.

[alfie]

Hi eirebilly

Had mainly been watching the athletics earlier on : but I gather some of the wickets were surrendered rather carelessly ? Malan though seemed to perish through playing against his natural game and prodding at Maharaj. I note even Root wasn't scoring freely.
Doesn't look all that easy out there for the batsmen ; especially against the spinner. Pressure builds when you can't score , eh ?

Stokes will not sit quietly for long ,I suspect.

I agree 300 - even with lots of time - would be a tough chase.

[eirebilly]

Its tough out there that's for sure but a couple of wickets were pretty much batsmen's errors, especially Cooks, Westley and Jennings.

Agree with Lions, Roots ability to score runs today without playing too many shots is outstanding. England are in no hurry to get to a defendable total which will frustrate the SA bowlers. That said, weather not looking very good for the next couple of days so a draw is still very much on the cards.

[CaledonianCraig]

I think the time to replace Jennings was after Trent Bridge. The worry is that they axe him and bring in someone new for Windies series. They have a weaker bowling attack and the new opener flatters to deceive with some big scores, earns his place as a starter in the Ashes and is quickly found out. I'd have sooner seen someone else get a real test against South Africa. However, Jennings must go.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'd be willing to bet South Africa don't make 250 in their 4th dig. Pitch is not good for scoring, and only getting worse. If England can bat through to close of play they'll already have plenty

[alfie]

I'd be willing to bet South Africa don't make 250 in their 4th dig. Pitch is not good for scoring, and only getting worse. If England can bat through to close of play they'll already have plenty

Probably right there , Olly. On what I've seen today the bounce is getting more and more variable ; and that trend is likely to continue...Moeen might have some fun bowling when it's his turn ; but I fancy Anderson and Broad will be a handful too...

Lead now 252 so by that reckoning Warne will be calling for a declaration shortly

[eirebilly]

Sure Warne was calling for a declaration after 3 overs into the England innings today alfie

[eirebilly]

Its pishing down where I am so it will be over the ground in about 20mins.

[CaledonianCraig]

A fair chunk of play will be lost today due to rain I reckon but doubt that will be enough to thwart England in their push to win the test.

[eirebilly]

Root bowled on 49...

Terrible shot from him.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Root bowled on 49...

Terrible shot from him.

Seriously? He's got a grubber there - can't do much about them except hope you get lucky! Suspect England won't be too disappointed to see that...

[alfie]

Timely fifty partnership now ended. Bit of a limp dismissal for Root - but it also shows the difficulty in batting with the low bounce .

Don't think they'll need to worry about a declaration - going to be bowled out here ; hopefully with a few more runs added !

That first innings score looking better and better as the game progresses...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Sir Chris Woakes takes a wicket in his first over back from injury in the county championship. The hero

[LionsV2]

Playing with an angled bat on a pitch showing variable bounce isn't the smartest thing to do but a valuable 49 nonetheless.

[eirebilly]

Root bowled on 49...

Terrible shot from him.

Seriously? He's got a grubber there - can't do much about them except hope you get lucky! Suspect England won't be too disappointed to see that...

He was well set, well accustomed to the conditions (varying bounce) and simply played a poor shot. Making 49 out there is a very good score though so well done to him.

[eirebilly]

Stokes gone now, I feel that alfie may be right, England will be bowled out today weather permitting.

[alfie]

Scoring ground to a halt after Root out...

Four though slips breaks the spell ...and now Stokes gone !

If England can make 200 from here they're doing brilliantly. SA at least have something to play for from this situation ; which didn't look likely at the start of play this morning. They are fighting

[alfie]

Olivier bowling hand grenades...

Wicket and two edged fours from the over. Batting suddenly looks next to impossible. How much is the pitch and how much England nerves ?

[alfie]

138/6 at tea. Battling...but 274 ahead ; which may be already enough.
Going to rain soon ...I'm off. 'Night all

[SimonofSurrey]

Playing Devil's Advocate, the thinking behind my XI is 1/ move Bairstow up as he's now too valuable to leave playing with the tail and 2/ Foakes gets those catches - and improbable stumping off spinners and faster bowlers.

[GSC]

Lead now up to 315 with 3 wickets remaining.

Steep task, but England will probably feel safer if they can inch to 350 again

[CaledonianCraig]

Obviously, they will want as many runs as possible in the bank but I already think they have enough. The scores are getting lower and lowet on this pitch innings by innings as the pitch begins to misbehave.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

MOEEN

[eirebilly]

Great stuff from Ali. Really driving England to a very strong position here.

[Mat]

Gem of a knock from Moeen, still think he's wasted at 8.

[CaledonianCraig]

Ali batting the way some others should have. Attack the spin rather than allow yourself to be tied down by it.

[eirebilly]

TRJ gone now but this just seems too little too late for SA.

[eirebilly]

It would be very nice for England to pass SA's first innings score here today as I think that is another blow to their confidence, just 8 more.

Another big 6 from Ali.

[GSC]

And we see the advantage of some aggressive lower order batting as England quickly move the game largely out of reach in quick time.

Bayliss in

[eirebilly]

Don't think we will see any more play today. The rain is really coming down here and is heading in the general direction of the ground.

[CaledonianCraig]

England lookings odds on to wrap up a 3-1 series win. The pitch os deteriorating and South Africa's form with the bat does not suggest they have it in them to chase down 360 runs.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England lookings odds on to wrap up a 3-1 series win. The pitch os deteriorating and South Africa's form with the bat does not suggest they have it in them to chase down 360 runs.

Forecast for the next two days is not very good (particularly Tuesday), so not even sure they'll have enough time to get close to 360 (if they did manage to bat well!)

[CaledonianCraig]

England lookings odds on to wrap up a 3-1 series win. The pitch os deteriorating and South Africa's form with the bat does not suggest they have it in them to chase down 360 runs.

Forecast for the next two days is not very good (particularly Tuesday), so not even sure they'll have enough time to get close to 360 (if they did manage to bat well!)

Weather dry tomorrow so quite conceivably it could be wrapped up tomorrow given that ten wickets have fallen today.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

STAT - Moeen now has 200 runs and 20 wickets in this series, the first Englishman to do so since Andrew Flintoff in the 2005 Ashes.

[KP_fan]

--a less one sided game than India Lanka...nevertheless Eng clearly ahead and should conveniently win unless Amala or Faf play one of their best innings ever

--It's a game between sides with mediocre batting and good bowling

Eng's top order is "more medciore", but they have probably world's best No.6 thru 10s..making them overall superior to SA's batting.

--Bowling wise SA is better in pace and have in my view the best left arm orthodox spinner i have seen in a long time in mahraaj.....far better than the highest wkt taker of the series Moeen.

nevertheless Eng's seam has more depth to cover injuries.....and in their conditions especially they match the SA pacers

--Eng op order...as I said each time I saw Westley....he can keep good balls out....see off a 100 balls but because he plays too close to his body and too straight....he can't play too mans strokes and today he was gone trying to force a stroke...he should be persisted with.
Malan & Jennings are too flawed

--Chasing 375 in about 5 1/2 sessions......90-10 in favor of Eng unless rain intervenes and takes out about a session and then draw comes in.
the 10% is because the have Amla and Faf capable of playing a 150 to take them to a famous win

[Gooseberry]

Gem of a knock from Moeen, still think he's wasted at 8.

Possibly ...but Bairstow is wasted at 7.
England have 2 all rounder and a keeper who have done better with the bat than a host of players tried in the top 5. That said though Stokes is absoluetly at the highest youd want him at 6 , and neither Bairstow nor Moeen have done as well batting up the order as they have down it.

Moeen still avergaes in the 30's with the bat. Thats simply not good enough for a top 5 player ...even if it is better than almost everyone else has doen for Engtland in recent years. He could bat at 6 or 7.

Vaughns written a piece on the BBC site which Im in broad agreement with. Stokes, Bairstow , Ali and if /when he trurns Woakes for a pretty powerful mid-lower order unit that covers for only haveing two proper batsmen delivering runs on a regular basis. It doesnt really matter which of them bats at 6/7/8/9 ...someones "too low".

Pushing them up the order just because they "should" be batting higher and bringing in another bowler whos not good enough to be in the side in the first place (worse a non-all rounder like Dawson) only weakens the batting further without adding any value elsewhere. Shuffle them around by all means, personally Id rather see Bairstow or Moeen above Stokes ( but then we get into defintions, workloads and egos) but it doesnt make a massive difference to the side...perhaps reacting and having felxibility is the way forwards with them. It is interesting that Moeen actually has a better test batting record than Stokes, and Stokes a better bowling one ( both fairly marginal) yet Moeens role seems to be more as a bowler who can bat and Stokes as batter who acts as the impact seamer and fielding troll.

The Foakes argument that someone bought up yesterday I see some merit in. If England are unable to fiill 3 batting spots with proper batsmen why not bring in a guy who has the potential to be a high 30's average test bat and a better kepper than Bairstow. Get Bairstow to give up the gloves and concentrate on his batting ...hes the third best test bat England have currently. (Westley pending ...but I stand my my statement hes done nothing yet other than show he has potential to do something in the future and not be ditched yet). It wont happen of course and may seem unfair on Bairstow, but its far more sensible than the attempt (short lived) to pretend Buttler could be a specialist test bat ...but come in down the order.

I'd rather see Moeen "wasted" at 8 and taking 20 wickets and making 200 runs in a 4 match series. Ive been a bit harsh on him over the last couple of years, this is the first genuinely good series hes had with the ball since the India one in his first summer...and hes also scored runs this time as well. Easily his best series ever...credit to him for that.

[dummy_half]

Ideally, each of Stokes, Bairstow (as a keeper) and Moeen would bat at 7, but obviously only one of them can. Bairstow is probably the best and most reliable of the three as a bat, and there is an argument that he should be picked as a batsman only and play at 5, but that's somewhat undermined by his having had less success batting up the order. Add to this that you are then in a position of either recalling Buttler who hasn't previously succeeded in Tests or Foakes who is unproven.

There are obviously still issues with one opener and at least one middle order spot. Some of the more crazy suggestions I've seen over the last few days:
1 - Recall for Ian Bell. He's in no sort of form this season
2 - Recall for Collingwood. I assume was tongue in cheek
3 - Moeen to move up to opener. Failed in India, would be disastrous in Aus.
4 - Recall for Hales, either as an opener or to bat 5. Obviously in good form in limited overs cricket but ignoring how big a change it is between 20/20 and Tests.

I don't know the right answers to England's issues, but I am certain that none of the above are right.

[LionsV2]

It's a conundrum having three number 6's in the team and only two players capable of playing in the top five, it balances out a bit but it's far from ideal.

[VTR]

Am not sure why I am seeing demands for a declaration on social media. England don't have to win this match. I doubt it will be long before we are bowled out anyway, and a 400 lead would be a massive blow to SA. No doubt Shane Warne is leading this bizarre campaign!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Am not sure why I am seeing demands for a declaration on social media. England don't have to win this match. I doubt it will be long before we are bowled out anyway, and a 400 lead would be a massive blow to SA. No doubt Shane Warne is leading this bizarre campaign!

People calling for a declaration are really really stupid. Like seriously not all there

[GSC]

The problem positions are 2 and 5 and we don't really have answers for either in the county game right now. Hales in the form of his life but we've seen him at test level and doesn't really address the lack of grit in the top order.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Declaration? What is this madness?? Do people realise England are 2-1 up in the series, and it's up to SA to make the running? Obviously no chance England will declare this innings*.

*unless somehow they're still batting as tea approaches...

Anyway, back to the debate on England's side. First of all, I think we agree that other than in specific circumstances, six bowlers is overkill, with England's optimal five-man attack being (probably) Anderson, Broad, Woakes, Moeen and Stokes. With that in mind, someone has to bat 8. Now, stats tells us that Bairstow and Moeen score more runs at 7, while Stokes scores more at 6. As such, seems logical to put Stokes at 6. Neither Bairstow nor Moeen have been a great success at 5, so talk about Bairstow being wasted at 7 is for me rather a moot point. Much like Gilchrist, it seems that he's happiest batting with a bit more freedom down the order. Also, see point above, someone has to bat 7. This leaves Moeen at 8. Probably the one I'm least happy about TBH, as his record there isn't that great. Hopefully this innings is a sign he's adapting to life there though.

Obviously this means England still have to find solutions for 2,3 and 5, but I don't think the solution is weakening the lower order by bringing in an extra bowling all-rounder (and taking away Bairstow's strength at 7).

[VTR]

Good post MFC - I agree and you've saved me the bother of posting the same thing. I've heard bump everyone one place up the order as the solution but that just creates a spare bowling spot that we don't need. So as you say, someone has to bat at 7 and 8 and even number 9 when Woakes returns is lower than his level of capability, but it's a nice problem to have

[GSC]

Anyway you can't captain according to the weather. And as others point out, SA need to win this test to draw the series.

[GSC]

Anyway it may be elementary as Broad goes and England are 9 down

[LionsV2]

Good post MFC - I agree and you've saved me the bother of posting the same thing. I've heard bump everyone one place up the order as the solution but that just creates a spare bowling spot that we don't need. So as you say, someone has to bat at 7 and 8 and even number 9 when Woakes returns is lower than his level of capability, but it's a nice problem to have

 Even then Broad has a far higher average than your normal number 10.

[VTR]

Broad would be dangerous at 10, he is still capable of making a quick-fire 50, though of course is a shadow of the player that he used to be. In fact he was pretty much a poor man's Moeen coming in at 8 a few years ago

[Mad for Chelsea]

All over, SA will need 380 to level the series. Would incidentally be their highest score of the series if they were to pull it off. Morkel ends with four wickets, and has deserved those.

[dummy_half]

Good post MFC - I agree and you've saved me the bother of posting the same thing. I've heard bump everyone one place up the order as the solution but that just creates a spare bowling spot that we don't need. So as you say, someone has to bat at 7 and 8 and even number 9 when Woakes returns is lower than his level of capability, but it's a nice problem to have

 Even then Broad has a far higher average than your normal number 10.

Not sure you can really use Broad's career average as a guide to his current batting level. Still produces the occasional innings where things go well, but they are much fewer and further between than say 5 years ago.

[dummy_half]

And Moeen unable to farm the strike, means Jimmy is out to Morkel and England all out for a lead of 379. Moeen 75 not out at the end.

Should be plenty, and obviously makes all talk of declarations moot. Perhaps one last chance for Anderson to get a Test 5-for at his home ground

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