Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

Director of Rugby Les Kiss  
Head Coach Jono Gibbes  
Assistant Coach Dwayne Peel
Scrum Coach Aaron Dundon  
Skills Coach Niall Malone


Players In
John Cooney from Connacht
Schalk van der Merwe from Southern Kings
Jean Deysel from Sharks
David Busby promoted from Academy
Aaron Cairns promoted from Academy
Ross Kane promoted from Academy
Rob Lyttle promoted from Academy
Tommy O'Hagan promoted from Academy
Jack Owens promoted from Academy

Players Out
Franco van der Merwe to Cardiff Blues
Roger Wilson retired
Conor Joyce to Jersey Reds
Mark Best to Jersey Reds
Jonny Murphy to Rotherham Titans
Ruan Pienaar to Montpellier
John Donnan released
Lorcan Dow released
Ricky Lutton released
Stephen Mulholland released

Ulster Rugby 2017/18 Senior Playing Squad

Rodney Ah You (18 ULS, 3 IRE)
John Andrew (27 ULS)
Rory Best (198 ULS, 104 IRE)
Callum Black (128 ULS)
Tommy Bowe (150 ULS, 69 IRE)
Peter Browne (31 ULS)
David Busby (2 ULS)
Aaron Cairns (1 ULS)
Darren Cave (193 ULS, 11 IRE)
Marcell Coetzee (4 ULS, 28 SA)
John Cooney (0 ULS, 1 IRE)
Jean Deysel (0 ULS, 4 SA)
Robbie Diack (193 ULS, 2 IRE)
Craig Gilroy (149 ULS, 10 IRE)
Iain Henderson (74 ULS, 32 IRE)
Chris Henry (165 ULS, 24 IRE)
Wiehahn Herbst (54 ULS)
Rob Herring (120 ULS, 1 IRE)
Brett Herron (7 ULS)
Paddy Jackson (123 ULS, 25 IRE)
Ross Kane (11 ULS)
Louis Ludik (54 ULS)
Robert Lyttle (8 ULS)
Luke Marshall (104 ULS, 11 IRE)
Paul Marshall (195 ULS, 3 IRE)
Kyle McCall (36 ULS)
Stuart McCloskey (58 ULS, 1 IRE)
Johnny McPhillips
Peter Nelson (37 ULS)
Alan O'Connor (39 ULS)
Tommy O'Hagan
Stuart Olding (62 ULS, 4 IRE)
Jack Owens (1 ULS)
Callum Patterson
Jared Payne (78 ULS, 20 IRE)
Charles Piutau (23 ULS, 16 NZ)
Matthew Rea
Sean Reidy (58 ULS, 2 IRE)
Clive Ross (52 ULS)
David Shanahan (13 ULS)
Jonny Simpson (4 ULS)
Jacob Stockdale (24 ULS, 2 IRE)
Kieran Treadwell (21 ULS, 2 IRE)
Andrew Trimble (217 ULS, 70 IRE)
Schalk van der Merwe
Andrew Warwick (74 ULS)

McPhillips must be back from injury, would like to see him get a half

toml wrote:McPhillips must be back from injury, would like to see him get a half

Yeah it'd be great if he can develop with training alongside Lealiifano acting as a catalyst. We still need a back up outhalf so it could be the deep end for him sooner rather than later.

I just don't see Herron making it to better than B team level

Anyone know if Northampton are arranging any kind of online stream of the game like Ulster Wasps was? I assume it's not on TV.

No streaming

On 10 I don't think Herron or McPhillips will be anywhere near the team

The new boy to start with Nelson and Cooney as backup

I'm going to like the Saints on bakebook just in case

Sadly no streaming - at least that is what I have been told

My cousin will be there though so I should get a full report

Can your cousin do a Facebook Live for us? lol

I'm holding onto hope that this young Curtis fella will become the bees knees. Based of course on nothing but the fact he's south african and didnt go through our schools system. But cant see him making seniors this season anyway. Whats the youngest senior debuts at Ulster? Anyone play at age 18/19 ever?

clivemcl wrote:I'm holding onto hope that this young Curtis fella will become the bees knees. Based of course on nothing but the fact he's south african and didnt go through our schools system. But cant see him making seniors this season anyway. Whats the youngest senior debuts at Ulster? Anyone play at age 18/19 ever?

Peter Nelson first put on an Ulster shirt at 18 for a friendly, an made full debut having just turned 19.

clivemcl wrote:I'm holding onto hope that this young Curtis fella will become the bees knees. Based of course on nothing but the fact he's south african and didnt go through our schools system. But cant see him making seniors this season anyway. Whats the youngest senior debuts at Ulster? Anyone play at age 18/19 ever?

Sam Arnold just last season.

geoff999rugby wrote:No streaming

On 10 I don't think Herron or McPhillips will be anywhere near the team

The new boy to start with Nelson and Cooney as backup

He was wearing a 12 shirt for his interviews yesterday... Someone playing silly buggers

Saints team:

15 Ahsee Tuala
14 Ben Foden
13 Luther Burrell
12 Rory Hutchinson
11 Tom Collins
10 Harry Mallinder
9 Nic Groom
1 Alex Waller
2 Dylan Hartley (capt)
3 Kieran Brookes
4 David Ribbans
5 Christian Day
6 Teimana Harrison
7 Lewis Ludlam
8 Mitch Eadie

Replacements
Forwards - Campese Ma'afu, Mikey Haywood, Paul Hill, Courtney Lawes, James Craig, Jamie Gibson, Sam Dickinson, Ben Nutley

Backs - Alex Mitchell, James Grayson, Ken Pisi, Tom Stephenson, Nafi Tuitavake, Jamie Elliott, George Furbank, Juan Pablo Estelles

Bit of a mixed bag, I will not be expecting to see Ludlam or Eadie starting in the pack nor would I expect Mallinder to start at 10, or Hutchinson and Collins start in the AP. Looks like a complete swap for the second half, although that 15 is not close to being as experienced as the starting line up.

Not a follower of the Ulster squad, how strong is their starting line up?

Not massively strong. Missing all our Lions (Best?Henderson/Payne) and the lads who were away on the Ireland tour (Treadwell/Reidy/Marshall/Stockdale.) Cave, Van Der Merwe and Kane still injured. Jackson and Olding are obviously waiting to see if they'll play for Ulster again, and Jackson's replacement Lealifano only just arrived in Belfast

A couple of our first steam are on the bench - Coetzee and Trimble.

The fact that we have named almost everyone in the squad on the bench should indicate what this game's being used. Also, a number of players being played in unusual positions.

45-8 to Saints with 10 mins to go. They are running rings around Ulster.

Make that 50-8

55 - 15 final score.
Boooo

Score line looks a bit terrible on paper but it's just a friendly.

Great to see Coetzee getting some game time.

Not altogether clear why we've only got 2 preseason friendlies where we play 1 team for a half each. Can't see how we're going to have much cohesion for Cheetahs next week.

I'm worried.  

We won't have packs much stronger than the one that was put out tonight week in week out in the Pro14.  Diack well out of position in the second row and lets be honest we aren't exactly thrilled about Robbie even in the backrow.  Other than that you have Coetzee to come into the backrow, Rory Best who is getting on a bit starting at hooker and a better second row than Diack.  Honestly though, this is probably a fair reflection on the sort of packs we are going to be putting out when you take into consideration injuries, season long pressures and the like.

What makes it worse is that the Saints pack isn't exactly intimidating and our back line was decent aside from the half backs.  Very concerning result, friendly or not, in my book.

I'm with you on that one, we should be putting up a much better fight than that with a week to go.

That being said, the only way is up
Lets see how things go next week when we're playing for keeps.

55 - 15

Defence? Maybe the 'elite' schools don't know how to fight? Maybe time to get in some hard edged secondary school pupils?

Maybe it's down to a crap defence coach? It could be, but it isn't just that. We know. Time to change things in the Schools.

Munchkin wrote:55 - 15

Defence? Maybe the 'elite' schools don't know how to fight? Maybe time to get in some hard edged secondary school pupils?

This could get fiery, but I've been saying this for so long.  You can't expect people who have no experience of real adversity to be cut out for where Ulster are now.  I've heard in recent times that the entire Ulster academy is still coming from a tiny number of grammar schools in Belfast.  You only have to look at our feeble efforts at bolstering our ranks with substandard IQ players like Herron to realize just what a calamitous failure the academy setup is.  I mean we are trawling the world for IQ players like Herron and O'Connor, remember Ruaridi Murphy??.  The only top class forward we've produced in god knows how many seasons is Iain Henderson.  I would suggest, somewhat controversially that some of the recent proceedings relative to Ulster rugby are also indicative of the culture and environment that these elite boys are accustomed to.  I fear the days of the hard edged, gratuitous Ulstermen who are up for a scrap are gone.  Look at that pack put out tonight, two, literally two homegrown players in a pack of eight.

Callum Black - American born came through the English system
Rob Herring - South Africa
Wiehahn Herbst - South Africa
Robbie Diack - South Africa
Alan O'Connor - Came through in the South
Clive Ross - Homegrown, but not the required quality, will take a pretty seismic shift for him to make it
Chris Henry - Homegrown, in his prime he was quality, is now good enough but no more than that
Jean Deysel - South Africa

People are saying it was just a friendly, but what Ulstermen are on the way to reinforce the above?  35 year old Rory Best and maybe some academy boys......what a nonsense.  If the other teams around us knew just how bad it was they'd be laughing at us and they will be soon.

EDIT:

Actually, we had one home grown player in the pack tonight, Ross come through in the South

Chris Henry flying the flag for Ulster in an Ulster pack, what a joke.

and posters call Saracens the Saffers team. Ouch.

Actually, we had one home grown player in the pack tonight, Ross come through in Cork.

Chris Henry flying the flag for Ulster in an Ulster pack, what a joke.

Edited:

As for posh D4 being successful; posh Ulster hasn't been. We can do better, and maybe it's time we spread the net.

Posh school system works fine in Dublin

"The Ulster School's Cup, which has been played for more than any other rugby trophy in history needs a major overhaul. Schools like Enniskillen Royal (Portora) have half the boys of the big Belfast schools. Inst imported a Kiwi Director of Rugby allegedly on a six figure salary and are now looking for a full time strength and conditioning coach. It's only the big schools can afford such professionals so the number of truly competitive teams is getting fewer and fewer.
Inst in particular exploit the de-powering of the pack under school rules to put out packs made up of 8 flankers. The scrum and lineout are unimportant compared to speed and continuity, so guys like Gilroy and Olding played in the back row at school.
If club sides were allowed in the schools cup then the smaller schools could be competitive (via clubs) and some of those players would also play the occasional senior game under adult rules. "

The other provinces allow schoolboys to play for both school and club.

"The other provinces allow schoolboys to play for both school and club."

That, even more than the snobbery of only having eyes for a few schools, is where our academy and schools system is failing. If a player is good enough, regardless of his age, let him have the odd run out in senior rugby for the experience and the confidence boost. There are also far too many schools that don't even play rugby and locally here there are no primary schools promoting mini rugby.

This season's u20s are Ulsters best group probably ever. That is an indication that theyve improved the underage section but it does take years to sow those crops. The lack of home grown forwards is an astonishing failure from Ulster rugby. In the last few years Connacht have produced more forwards despite their limited resources not to mention Leinster.

A couple of seasons ago we had the best defence in the league. Maybe for a couple of years. It was superb. It's not about how posh anyone is. It's because we had Johnny Bell as defence coach.

We certainly do need to spread the net, and we are. Aren't there a few young kids from Letterkenny in ten set-up now? It doesn't change overnight. Let's give Gibbes and Peel more than two friendlies to see what they can do with Andrew, McCall (X2), Rea, Montgomery, Lyttle, Cairns, Stockdale, Kane etc etc.

Willie Duggan RIP

Absolutely shocked by the news - I knew him slightly, a truly great bloke

Artful_Dodger wrote:I'm worried.  

We won't have packs much stronger than the one that was put out tonight week in week out in the Pro14.  

Cant agree we will have a better 1,2,4,5 (sometimes), 6

That leave only 3 starters against Saints _ Herbst (who needs to improve otherwise Kane will go past him), Henry and Deysel who are in a head to head with Reidy (any 2 from 3)

Artful_Dodger wrote:  Callum Black - American born came through the English system
Rob Herring - South Africa
Wiehahn Herbst - South Africa
Robbie Diack - South Africa
Alan O'Connor - Came through in the South
Clive Ross - Homegrown, but not the required quality, will take a pretty seismic shift for him to make it
Chris Henry - Homegrown, in his prime he was quality, is now good enough but no more than that
Jean Deysel - South Africa

Chris Henry flying the flag for Ulster in an Ulster pack, what a joke.

To be fair McCall and Best are better than the people who occupied the 1,2 shirts and Henderson is better than both locks.
Kane is not far behind Herbst either.
With Treadwell we can put out an ok, homegrown, front 5 and not a Saffer in sight

The Great Aukster wrote:

The other provinces allow schoolboys to play for both school and club.

Exactly Ulster rugby need to grow a pair and tell the schools to get lost - no final at Ravenhill for example - until they change this moronic policy

With Logan is charge, and to be fair Reid before him, not a chance.

OK how long is this idiotic policy of playing Bowe at 13 going to continue.

13 is the key defending back and sorry Tommy you cant cut it

Anyone other than Payne, Cave or Marshall at 13 is madness (Marshall remains a better 12 though)
Compounded by McCloskey at 12 who was defensively weak last year.

Also Kiss must be the only one who thinks it is better to have Piatau at 15 and Ludik on the wing instead of the other way round.

As things stand we will go into the Cheetahs game without a credible 10 or a credible 13.

Glad I will be away in France - it could get ugly

If the official team photo is anything to go by Henderson may well be the new Team captain

https://twitter.com/BBCSPORTNI/status/902195727979466753/photo/1

If so a reflection of the fact he has really grown as a player this summer

I find this news strangely optimistic. But I'm sure my hopes will soon come crashing down. They always do with Ulster.

So when the photographer said "watch the dicky bird", where the hell was the dicky bird?

Apparently this is the travelling Cheetahs squad for Friday's game:

Charles Marais, Ox Nche, Joseph Dweba, Jacques du Toit, Torsten van Jaarsveld, Erich de Jager, Aranos Coetzee, Tom Botha, Justin Basson, Armandt Koster, Reniel Hugo, Rynier Bernardo, Paul Schoeman, Henco Venter, Gerhard Olivier, Niell Jordaan, Shaun Venter, Tian Meyer, Zee Mkhabela, Cecil Afrika, Robbie Petzer, Makazole Mapimpi, Ali Mgijima, William Small-Smith, Rayno Benjamin, Rosko Specman, Sergeal Petersen, Clayton Blommetjies

What are they going to tell Gusher? Maybe he'll throw a sicky for these games or revert to calling them by the numbers on their back

SO, can anyone educate me. Do the Cheetahs or Kings actually have any players with considerable SA caps? I know the pool of players in SA is huge, so it isn't necessarily an indicator of a poor team. Just curious. Did either team manage to hold onto any household names or 'stars'?

In simple terms the Cheetahs lost hardly anybody, the Kings lost virtually everybody (including 2 to the Cheetahs)

On that basis reasonable to assume the Cheetahs will be of a similar standard to the Super18.
The Kings on the other hand are a completely unknown quantity (they have gained 8 players on loan from Sharks and Bulls)

Don’s First Team of The Season (Bloody Nose for Cheetahs GUARANTEED)

1) McCall
2) Andrew
3) Herbst
4) O’Connor
5) Diack
6) Deysel
7) Henry
8) Coetzee
9) Cooney
10) Lealifano
11) Piutau
12) McCloskey
13) Ludik
14) Trimble
15) Nelson

16) Black
17) Herring
18) At You
19) Browne
20) Ross
21) Marshall
22) Bowe
23) Patterson

It won’t be anything like that, of course.  

Most of it is self-explanatory but some word about what I was thinking -

Herring was the unheralded second best hooker in Ireland about three seasons ago. Nowhere near that now, and Andrew will overtake him this season if he doesn’t get some form back.

Nelson (or Cooney) is back-up ten. Herron has not engendered much faith. Ludik has put in several good performances at 13. Given that we are missing Cave, Marshall, Olding, Payne and Stockdale, I think that’s as good as we can field. Patterson so we can bring on a new twelve if needs be.

Rory Best the captain for the season, Chris Henry for Friday.

I have to say it's refreshing to see an Ulster player who actually comes across very comfortable on camera. We tend to always have kinda awkward interviews. I like Deysel's attitude.

https://www.facebook.com/ulsterrugby/videos/1500802523332175/

When are the Ireland and Lions players expected back?

Ireland 1st or more likely 2nd week
Lions 3rd or 4th week

Out of interest what are your opinions on Les Kiss? Reading the other dodgy forum, they completely have it in for him, particularly as he would seem to be the defacto defence coach.
Any idea what the balance of responsibility is between him and Gibbes? Who is picking the team.

Gibbes coaches the forwards - Kiss picks the team.

I rate Gibbes, I don't rate Kiss

geoff999rugby wrote:Gibbes coaches the forwards - Kiss picks the team.

I rate Gibbes, I don't rate Kiss

So Gibbes moved to Ulster from Clermont for a change of job title but not job description? I thought he would have been in charge of the first team.

Could be money, could be a promise, could be a challenge.

I suspect there are elements of all three in the appeal of the move.

This is speculation but as forwards coach I suspect he has far more freedom to do his own thing at Ulster than he did at Clermont.
Head Coach At Clermont would have an opinion, Kiss leaves him to it - he knows his knowledge of forward play doesn't compare.
By extension Gibbes would have some input in forward selection

I was hoping Gibbes would be Head Coach - he isn't - at least for now.
I know it says otherwise elsewhere but I have not seen the evidence.
Hopefully he is being groomed for the role and we will see Kiss take a backward step as the season progresses

toml wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Gibbes coaches the forwards - Kiss picks the team.

I rate Gibbes, I don't rate Kiss

So Gibbes moved to Ulster from Clermont for a change of job title but not job description? I thought he would have been in charge of the first team.

Perhaps he is playing the long game so to speak. Maybe he was told that soon enough Kiss might be out or moving to a different role, I mean it makes sense to keep 1 coach who is used to the players for a year given how many of the guys where away in the summer and not available for Gibbes to really get to know in the first summer.
Wasn't going to be Doak or Clarke so maybe they thought keep Kiss for a year then move him into something else (perhaps changing the way Ulster recruits, youth system, clubs etc) or move him on.
I'm just guessing off course but could make sense