England vs West Indies - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

So England have announced that the squad for this series will be announced today....will try to update as soon as it comes out!

[msp83]

Enough of this nonsense. The West Indies cricket team should be disbanded and the islands should go their separate ways. Perhaps, from those ashes, something could yet be salvaged somewhere down the line.

[Duty281]

Overall, I think everyone is being slightly harsh on the Windies.

They're in a tough spot, undoubtedly, but folding cheaply is the done thing in Test cricket nowadays, thanks to the influence of T20.

Let's see how they fare in Tests played in the usual manner, before throwing them out with the rubbish.

[GSC]

One would hope WI can find some performance sharpish or this will be a very pointless 3 match series.

Not sure where WIs are headed, they seem to get worse everytime they come here.

[KP_fan]

A sorry win
hopeless game
i expected it would be as bad as Ind-SL.....was a little worse

Eng should make flatter pitches to encourage more competition and to better estimate the worth of their bowlers

[James100]

Jarrod Kimber on WIndies today is

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/20389954/west-indies-legacy-left-hands-schoolboys

[alfie]

Overall, I think everyone is being slightly harsh on the Windies.

They're in a tough spot, undoubtedly, but folding cheaply is the done thing in Test cricket nowadays, thanks to the influence of T20.

Let's see how they fare in Tests played in the usual manner, before throwing them out with the rubbish.

Agree with this.

I fully expect England to carve them up this summer but I don't think that means they have to lose Test status or be prevented from touring...
By the standards being implied on here England should probably have forfeited the last Test in India last year and been shipped home early !

As Duty suggests , they may have a little more chance of competing with England with a red ball in daylight - and hopefully warmer weather : the conditions in which this match was played really couldn't have been worse for cricketers raised in the Caribbean .

I do fear for the future of cricket in the West Indies - though I'm not sure breaking the islands up into individual teams is any answer : surely that just spreads the available talent even thinner ? Hopefully a couple of truly talented individuals will emerge and build a team around them - I am afraid I didn't see any in this game but let us at least give them the next couple of matches to see if any of them can stand up.

[alfie]

And despite the shortcomings of the opponents we shouldn't forget to celebrate some fine cricket from England. They were two down for not many on day one but Cook and Root not only recovered the position but put together an outstanding partnership of nearly 250 in good time ; and Malan then battled through a tricky period under lights to contribute to another stand with Cook that ensured England would have both a rock crushing total and bags of time to bowl their opponents out twice. It did appear that not only was the bowling poor but the pitch was easy : yet thereafter wickets tumbled throughout so perhaps there was a bit more for the bowlers and the quality of the batting deserved more credit ?
If Anderson and Broad were once again the cutting edge of the attack the other bowlers also played their part ...TRJ - who really does remind me of Angus Fraser - continues to look as if he may be handy on Australian pitches with his sometimes surprising bounce ; Stokes is hostile - and Moeen is growing in confidence and seems to have added a trick or two to his bag.
Easy meat maybe but you still have to carve it ...and they did.

[msp83]

Sorry Alfie and Duty.
There is absolutely no chance of this West Indies side turning things around. Yes this is not the first time we've had one-sided test matches. Yes England is a difficult place for teams to tour, India had it terrible last couple of times and even the fine touring side South Africa lost there this time.
But what we get to see from the West Indies is just rubbish so very consistently, and year by year, it is getting worse. Even when sides like Bangladesh were emerging and involved in a lot of one-sided tests, they had players to look forward to. In 2004 there was a young Mushfiqur Rahim, a decade ago Shakib Al Hasan wasn't among the better all-rounder in the game, remember how a young Tamim Iqbal excited England in 2010?
A side can go through faces of evolution and re-emergence, like Sri Lanka is doing today. But they do have players like Kusal Mendis, Dikwella, Sandakan and others, and Mathews and Chandimal remain test quality.
In comparision, what has this sorry pathetic lot got? Roach still is just about test quality, he used to be a very exciting prospect ones. Gabriel on his day can bring something extra to the table. Bishoo can be semi decent on a spinning track. Kraigg Brathwaite loves test cricket, and is close to test quality. But what else?
Holder at 8 is a disaster. Nowhere near good enough to be 1 of 4 bowlers and shouldn't be selected as anything other than an all-rounder batting top 7 and as the 5th bowler. He can't captain, not inspiring, doesn't know what plans or tactics mean.
Roston Chase and Shai Hope might benefit from greater exposure to test cricket, might still develop into test quality. Blackwood is a luxury that can be afforded by a half-decent batting lineup, not this hopeless lot. Powell is a proven failure, Kyle Hope at 28 is a struggler at FC level. Young Joseph, who seemed to be a prospect in the making at U-19 level, seems to have lost it already. Cummins is unlikely to run through sides.
And finally, none of them can field anywhere close to international standards.

[dummy_half]

msp

agree regarding the team and squad sent on this tour. However, we know there are at least half a dozen players in the West Indies who could improve the team, but who are not considered for selection because of the WICB rules or personal disputes - OK, they may not turn this into a winning team, but the could at least give the foundations for development rather than relying almost entirely on young / inexperienced players.

I don't buy the argument that American sport has taken over the islands - cricket is still number one in places like Barbados and Antigua, but the people also want to see some success so come out for the T20 and ODIs, but are disillusioned with the longer form of the game.

The ICC needs to bash some heads to stop stupidity like the CPL being scheduled at the same time as a Test tour of England, but also needs to help by providing some funds to get the first class pitches back to life.

[VTR]

It's scraping the barrel when some of the articles saying how much better the Windies could be name Gayle and Chanderpaul. One is a T20 slogger and no spring chicken, the other is 43!

[sirfredperry]

A bit of perspective is needed when considering the weakness of the Windies team and the so-called mismatches.
   At least WI will only have to endure three matches in this series. When England were regularly being annihilated by the Windies in the 1980s they had to put up with five-Test series (later increased to SIX for heaven's sake).
   England, with far stronger sides than Windies can now muster, were regularly trounced. Doubt any of the Windies' fans were feeling sorry for England, or suggesting England should be relegated to some Test second division.

[msp83]

Are we suggesting that this England side is an alltime great one?

[msp83]

msp

agree regarding the team and squad sent on this tour. However, we know there are at least half a dozen players in the West Indies who could improve the team, but who are not considered for selection because of the WICB rules or personal disputes - OK, they may not turn this into a winning team, but the could at least give the foundations for development rather than relying almost entirely on young / inexperienced players.

I don't buy the argument that American sport has taken over the islands - cricket is still number one in places like Barbados and Antigua, but the people also want to see some success so come out for the T20 and ODIs, but are disillusioned with the longer form of the game.

The ICC needs to bash some heads to stop stupidity like the CPL being scheduled at the same time as a Test tour of England, but also needs to help by providing some funds to get the first class pitches back to life.

Dummy, who would be those 6 7 players who can make this a better side? Among those who still available for test cricket, only Darren Bravo is not here. He can certainly make it a bit more decent side. But who else? The older Bravo is retired from test cricket, he's almost 34 and doesn't have an outstanding test record anyways from some 40 tests. Gayle is old and is unlikely to be around even in T-20s for that long. Samuels as a test batsman is a disgrace even to this side! Between Bishoo and Sunil Narine, I would go in with the former in tests for sure. Are we talking about Shiv being called out of retirement at 43? He still is better than any of these jokers, but that is not a very demanding task really!

[sirfredperry]

Michael Vaughan says: "The remainder of England's series against West Indies will be "sad to watch".
No, Michael. For England fans the series that are sad to watch are when England are getting steamrollered as they have been in the past by Windies and Australian sides.

[wisden]

You have missed out the end of his quote, which was the important bit...convinent...

he said will be sad series to watch for test cricket


if your gonna quote do the whole thing not just the bit that suits you

[KP_fan]

Sorry Alfie and Duty.
There is absolutely no chance of this West Indies side turning things around. Yes this is not the first time we've had one-sided test matches. Yes England is a difficult place for teams to tour, India had it terrible last couple of times and even the fine touring side South Africa lost there this time.
But what we get to see from the West Indies is just rubbish so very consistently, and year by year, it is getting worse. Even when sides like Bangladesh were emerging and involved in a lot of one-sided tests, they had players to look forward to. In 2004 there was a young Mushfiqur Rahim, a decade ago Shakib Al Hasan wasn't among the better all-rounder in the game, remember how a young Tamim Iqbal excited England in 2010?
A side can go through faces of evolution and re-emergence, like Sri Lanka is doing today. But they do have players like Kusal Mendis, Dikwella, Sandakan and others, and Mathews and Chandimal remain test quality.
In comparision, what has this sorry pathetic lot got? Roach still is just about test quality, he used to be a very exciting prospect ones. Gabriel on his day can bring something extra to the table. Bishoo can be semi decent on a spinning track. Kraigg Brathwaite loves test cricket, and is close to test quality. But what else?
Holder at 8 is a disaster. Nowhere near good enough to be 1 of 4 bowlers and shouldn't be selected as anything other than an all-rounder batting top 7 and as the 5th bowler. He can't captain, not inspiring, doesn't know what plans or tactics mean.
Roston Chase and Shai Hope might benefit from greater exposure to test cricket, might still develop into test quality. Blackwood is a luxury that can be afforded by a half-decent batting lineup, not this hopeless lot. Powell is a proven failure, Kyle Hope at 28 is a struggler at FC level. Young Joseph, who seemed to be a prospect in the making at U-19 level, seems to have lost it already. Cummins is unlikely to run through sides.
And finally, none of them can field anywhere close to international standards.

msp....WI has talent
--we have had these discussions many times on this forum
And I have always maintained it's not the talent.....but lack of interest in test cricket...lack of team planning & spirit ...and just lack of any national pride that drives when you play as a nation....and WI is no nation
lack of interest / planning/ pride/ spirit/ nationalism.... and probably money also shows in the performance
From the same talent pool ( of FC and league cricket)...they produce senior and junior world cup winners in T20s
So it's not talent

--There is something called Playing Hard Test cricket......which if considered on a scale of 100...
right now Eng and India are playing at almost level 90
Aus and SA close behind around level 80
WI are on that scale at around level 15......even BD is at level 30 or so right now.

--If we were to do a scale of talent.....WI is not behind SA....they have dashing batsmen, 90mph pacers, all rounders, mystery spinners being produced by their system...

[sirfredperry]

KP_Fan. Some times it's about simply producing your normal form at Test level. In the 80s and 90s England, for far too often, had players who totally underperformed when given Test caps.
   Suddenly around 2000 a lot changed. Players such as Vaughan, Trescothick, Strauss, Pietersen, Cook, Prior and Trott all brought their best form into the Test arena straight away.
   The Windies present lot are underperforming. Although England have had some good wins of late they, too, have had a series of underperforming players - namely all the openers chosen to partner Cook since Strauss retired.
   There's been no settled numbers three and five for England of late, either.

[VTR]

I think that's a good post from KP_Fan - the Windies do have talent that comes through, but it is funneled towards T20 cricket rather than First Class and ultimately Test cricket. I am not sure what the solution is whilst the money is clearly in T20

[Gooseberry]

Do West Indies really have players a stalented as Philander, Steyn, De Villiers and Amla? Or even Faf, Morkel and Maharaj?
I'm not really convinced.
Bowling fast in itself is only really a skill if its doen with some form of control and consitency.
"Mystery spin" is a polite way of saying "chucking" and Narine cant even do that succesfuly in tests. 

SA turned up with a reduced side, and low on confidence and interest and uncertainty around their leadership. They suffered suspensions, injuries and a loss of form....yet still gave England a hard ride and looked like a professional side.

The West Indies are just rubbish. The lack of effort and low confidence made things worse, but even at their best they are not a good side by any stretch.

I dont deny that psychology and application do play a huge part in making a test team successful ( look at how the same England side has capitulated a number of times on tour) but in the case of the West Indies its ridiculous to suggest they just need to try a bit harder and theyd be as good as South Africa (when they are trying). 


Rolling back up further ...yeah Gayle and Cahnderpaul. In the latters case theres a clasic example of someone who didnt try that often, but whos talent in tests is exaggerated. That both he and Cahderpaul could be mentioned as players who would improve the side shows just waht a lack of genuine batting talent there is (Samuels would be another ...and again a player with a long history of poor application). Bravo too...hes past his best and wasnt very good them.
These guys are well past their best but still touted for the west indies dream team?

Im sure the current crop could do better with more discpline, confidence and application....but they need a lot more than that to actually be any good. Some serious coaching and direction over a prolonged period of years is needed too. It wont happen.

[dummy_half]

Goose

I think there is a big gap between 'improving this West Indies side' and 'dream team'. Other than Gayle on the odd occasion when his brain is in gear, they don't have players of the quality of de Villiers or Amla, but they have guys who should have been able over the last decade to match the Test exploits of du Plessis or Morkel - the big issue is that they have not focussed on test cricket but have chased the T20 cash.

Having a few guys with some experience (such as Bravo x 2 and Jerome Taylor) would be beneficial both to the team on the field and to the development of some reasonably talented but very raw youngsters. I do agree though that the issues are discipline and application (confidence I think has to start from performance, and can't just be coached in).

Chanderpaul I think is so far over the hill that he shouldn't be near consideration (a very fine servant of Caribbean Test cricket at a time when they had very few of those though), but I do think there should be some role for him around the squad as a batting consultant.

Oh, and at least picking the strongest team from the available squad would have been a help - Gabriel and Bishoo instead of the young quick and one of the specialist batsmen would have been better balanced and hopefully somewhat less toothless in attack.

[Gooseberry]

Dummy TBF Gabriel was dropped for Roach who was the pick of the bowlers, although yes its odd he was the one to get dropped. 

The rest of your post you seem to be arguing largely the same that I was.
The older players arent anything special in tests but some would still be a step up from some of the rubbish that playeed in this. I was largely countering KPFs assertion that theres a world  class west indies side waiting for a bit of motivation ...which is clealry bunk.

The flip side of getting the old timers back in is that it could special the devleopment of the next generation. So I agree with your point that a limited number of the more relevant and motivated ones to give some leadership and on field coaching is a better step than trying to pretend chanderpaul hasnt retired and that Gayle cares.  


Theres no quick fix to make them a competitive side again, its going to take years of improving quality as well as a change in attitude and morale.

[dummy_half]

Dummy TBF Gabriel was dropped for Roach who was the pick of the bowlers, although yes its odd he was the one to get dropped. 

The rest of your post you seem to be arguing largely the same that I was.
The older players arent anything special in tests but some would still be a step up from some of the rubbish that playeed in this. I was largely countering KPFs assertion that theres a world  class west indies side waiting for a bit of motivation ...which is clealry bunk.

The flip side of getting the old timers back in is that it could special the devleopment of the next generation. So I agree with your point that a limited number of the more relevant and motivated ones to give some leadership and on field coaching is a better step than trying to pretend chanderpaul hasnt retired and that Gayle cares.  


Theres no quick fix to make them a competitive side again, its going to take years of improving quality as well as a change in attitude and morale.

This is very true, unless there happens to be a golden generation just waiting to come forth (of which there is no real evidence). The West Indies have almost always had issues with organisation because they are not a single nation and so the WICB is composed of people with home nation agendas to serve, and this spills over into the squad and team selection and in the relationship between players and the board. Add to this the relative lack of money in the Caribbean game (especially for playing for the West Indies) and something of a power struggle between the big name players (Gayle perhaps the leader of this) and the board regarding playing IPL compared with playing Caribbean first class cricket, and there are some serious structural problems that need addressing before it is likely that a better West Indies side will emerge.

[VTR]

The Windies aren't ever coming back as a Test force. There is no magic money tree that will suddenly make it a lucrative form of the game for them, and no real public interest over there any more.

These two points are related if compared to say England or India, who can sell the TV rights for a large sum which can then be fed back into the Test game. Unless the ICC become very charitable, which won't happen, then the Windies Test players will continue to be poorly rewarded. Why would any player bother not to focus purely on T20 skills where you can become a millionaire overnight?

The 80's are a distant memory now, so they'll still be wheeling out Fire in Babylon in 20 years time showing how good they once were, and it will be even sadder when Windies are bottom of Test Division 2 getting smashed by an innings in Ireland, or in all likelihood not playing Test cricket at all.

[dummy_half]

The Windies aren't ever coming back as a Test force. There is no magic money tree that will suddenly make it a lucrative form of the game for them, and no real public interest over there any more.

These two points are related if compared to say England or India, who can sell the TV rights for a large sum which can then be fed back into the Test game. Unless the ICC become very charitable, which won't happen, then the Windies Test players will continue to be poorly rewarded. Why would any player bother not to focus purely on T20 skills where you can become a millionaire overnight?

The 80's are a distant memory now, so they'll still be wheeling out Fire in Babylon in 20 years time showing how good they once were, and it will be even sadder when Windies are bottom of Test Division 2  getting smashed by an innings in Ireland, or in all likelihood not playing Test cricket at all.

Sadly, unless something radical happens (comparable to the Packer revolution of the mid 70s), I think you could well be right...

[dummy_half]

Gayle and Samuels accept places in the squad for the ODIs, but Darren Bravo and Sunil Narine requested to be omitted.

Something is really wrong in the state of West Indies cricket, and it probably does come down to money and governance.

[msp83]

The side that West Indies put out on the park for the last game wasn't their strongest possible. However, even if they pick their top side if everyone is fit and available how would it look like?
Gayle, Brathwaite, Darren Bravo, Shai Hope? Roston Chase, Andre Russell? Shane Dowrich, Devendra Bishoo, Shannon Gabriel, Kemar Roach, Jerome Taylor?
Russell hasn't played much of test cricket, Taylor has been injured for major stretches of his career and is probably over the hill in any case by now. Apart from Gayle and younger Bravo, there is no test quality batsmen missing out from the current squad. Gayle is a proven test player, but at 37, even if he decides to care, can't be expected to be a major force any more, particularly as he's more of a hand-eye coordination type player rather than the technically strong type. And he's not the T-20 force of even last year either lets not forget.
Which test quality bowler is missing out from the current bunch? Jerome Taylor? Into his mid 30s, he won't be bowling at 145 KPH any more.His carreer has been full of injuries though he used to be decent when fit and firing. But at this stage of his career, he can't be expected to make a significant difference, in fact it was that realization that led to his early test retirement rather than lucrative T-20 possibilities as he's not even a serious prospect in the IPL and other leagues any more.
And which spinner in the region better than Bishoo who is missing out? Sunil Narine? Didn't look all that impressive when he last played test cricket, and after that he had to remodel his action and hasn't been very effective even in T-20s. Perhaps he'll be a better bat than some of the club batsmen with the present lot!
They do have explosive batsmen, and some of them, may have made the step up to test cricket. Pollard is one who never got a chance at the test level and he has been around even before the IPL. Samuels is a proven test failure, Bravo was nothing more than strictly average with the bat and back-up with the ball. None of them would have changed much around. And that generation is mostly in their 30s.
Thanks for the memories West Indies, please don't tarnish them any more!

[msp83]

Narine doesn't add anything with the ball in limited overs any more. Could have been an effective slogger who could have moved around the order, could have batted up the order or come down and slog a few. Bishoo and Nurse are better bowlers in comparison.

[msp83]

What is the deal with Darren Bravo? If we have to suffer the West Indies at test level, he's the only test quality batsman around for now, and with him around, perhaps Brathwaite, Chase and Shai Hope also might step up a bit. He and the WICB have kissed and made up didn't they? So what is it now?

[wisden]

Darren Bravo isn't fit hence why he requested to be omitted...really annoys me on the site when people don't read quotes or articles properly, and just make up their own things....

Bravo not fit, Narine not trusting his action and playing the regional 50 over comp instead

[dummy_half]

BBC article is very misleading them:

Chris Gayle and Marlon Samuels have been named in the West Indies squad for the one-day series against England.

Their inclusion comes after a 'temporary amnesty' between their union and the team's cricket board.

The West Indies' policy usually means players are only selected for international duty if they feature in the same format in domestic cricket.

The first of five one-day internationals takes place at Old Trafford on 19 September.

The chairman of the selection panel of Cricket West Indies, Courtney Browne, said Gayle and Samuels will "add value to our batting and help with the nurturing of the young batsmen in the team".

But he added: "Both Sunil Narine and Darren Bravo have declined to be considered for ODIs in England."

Many players choose not to compete in the West Indian one-day competitions because they often clash with lucrative overseas leagues such as Australia's Big Bash.

England won the first of three day-night Tests against West Indies by an innings and 209 runs at Edgbaston on Saturday.

[wisden]

Look at Cricinfo, much more detailed, much more reliable

[VTR]

Good post by msp. Even with the supposed batting stars, who have become much better players than anyone remembers now they aren't playing, the Windies would in all likelihood still be trounced, as they have in every series in England since 2004.

Going back to those series teams with the likes of Lara, Sarwan and Gayle put in plenty of insipid performances. Their worst ever innings defeat was in a series in England ten years ago. There's been no improvement in that time and they aren't really missing any players that would do that much better than the ones actually playing

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I see women beater Boycott is also racist now too

What a delightful individual he is

[Duty281]

Individual tells an innocuous joke. Cue a massive overreaction.

Fairly standard.

[LionsV2]

Individual tells an innocuous joke. Cue a massive overreaction.

Fairly standard.

A misjudged rather than racist comment I feel.

[KP_fan]

I see women beater Boycott is also racist now too

What a delightful individual he is

People have become overly touchy these days
and Force themselves to interpret normal statements also in a racist, sexist way

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

(I think my main point is I dislike Boycott immensely - odious individual even when he was playing)

[LionsV2]

A great batsmen whose self centred nature benefitted the England team immensely, much rather players and commentators with a personality than countless sheep.

[Duty281]

Waheed Saleem, who was in the audience of the Q&A when Boycott made the remarks, told BBC Sport: "I was completely disgusted. I don't think anyone saw it as a light-hearted joke. I was absolutely gobsmacked."

Christ, imagine having to deal with real problems!

[James100]

This comment from Boycott was pretty clearly racist, why do people feel the need to defend him?

[LionsV2]

I think people have lost track of what racism actually is.

[Gooseberry]

Racist or not its massively insulting to the cricketers who did get them. If he wonders why he hasnt got a knighthood he should probably look at his conviction which he himself has previously said is the reason he hasnt got one.

[KP_fan]

(I think my main point is I dislike Boycott immensely - odious individual even when he was playing)

I understood your point...but since you raised this subject, I wrote my point of view on it

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I thin it was daft and inappropriate rather than racist. His point itself is wrong rather than racist.

[Gooseberry]

I see women beater Boycott is also racist now too

What a delightful individual he is

People have become overly touchy these days
and Force themselves to interpret normal statements also in a racist, sexist way

yeah but this wasnt a "normal sattement" it was directly drawing attention to peoples colour and using it to degrade them and their achievements. Frankly he should know better than to even joke about "blacking up" which is a huigely sensitive issue in itself.

As an individual ask yourslef this ...is someone likley to be offended by this? So why am I doing it?
If you think that upsetting them is Ok because you are more important go ahead, but dont be offended back if you get called out on it.

[LionsV2]

I don't think it was doing any such thing to be honest, mentioning colour in itself is not racist and I don't see what part of that comment can be thought of as being degrading?

[KP_fan]

I am brown, but I see there is reverse discrimination these days

a white man cannot make a genuine comment on the problems caused by / nonperformance of  colored person......else he is likely to be branded racist

a man man cannot make a genuine comment on the problems caused by / nonperformance of  a woman......else he is likely to be branded sexist / misogynist

These may not be exactly related to Boycott issue ( especially the later) but are in context of my point

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

The problem with Boycott is he's got this delusional belief that he was better than he actually was. In and around his area he wasn't in the vlsss of batsmen like Gavaskar or Greg Chappell. And Boycott went missing against the great Windies side time and again

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The problem with Boycott is he's got this delusional belief that he was better than he actually was. In and around his area he wasn't in the vlsss of batsmen like Gavaskar or Greg Chappell. And Boycott went missing against the great Windies side time and again

He also literally went missing "injured" at one point...then turned up on the golf course whilst the rest of his team were fielding...

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

The problem with Boycott is he's got this delusional belief that he was better than he actually was. In and around his area he wasn't in the vlsss of batsmen like Gavaskar or Greg Chappell. And Boycott went missing against the great Windies side time and again

He also literally went missing "injured" at one point...then turned up on the golf course whilst the rest of his team were fielding...

Yorkshire's finest seemed to forget that cricket was a team sport and not the Geoffrey Boycott show...

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