England vs West Indies - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

So England have announced that the squad for this series will be announced today....will try to update as soon as it comes out!

[msp83]

Darren Bravo isn't fit hence why he requested to be omitted...really annoys me on the site when people don't read quotes or articles properly, and just make up their own things....

Bravo not fit, Narine not trusting his action and playing the regional 50 over comp instead

"really annoys me on the site when people don't read quotes or articles properly, and just make up their own things...." Seriously annoying indeed! I mentioned Darren Bravo, originally didn't see anything on his fitness issues, then went back to cricinfo to recheck. Found Darren's older brother is indeed injured/not yet fit to return, and young Darren is reported to have declined to make himself available for selection!

[Gooseberry]

a white man cannot make a genuine comment on the problems caused by / nonperformance of  colored person......else he is likely to be branded racist

a man man cannot make a genuine comment on the problems caused by / nonperformance of  a woman......else he is likely to be branded sexist / misogynist

This is utter tosh KPF.

Theres endless criticism of players who are also black in this discussion, noone has been accussed of being racist.

Why? Because we havent said " The black players of west Indies are lazzy and rubbish" and linked their race/colour or any other non relevant factor to their performance. We havent said or inferred that all black people are lazy.

White people are quite welcome to critisize people who are women and who are black (and do quite regulalry) , whats not acceptable is to critisize them simply for being those things or make statements that single them out for one of those arbitrary factors unless its genuinely relevant. Chrtis Gayle is lazy and greedy...fine. Black men like Chris Gayle are lazy and greedy ...not fine. The black man Chris Gayle is lazy and greedy, not fine. Andrew Symonds is a monkey ...really not OK.
 Is it that hard to understand the difference and why someone might find it problematic to suggest that players got knighted because they are black?

Were you OK with Prince Phillips "looks like it was done by an Indian" comment?

In this case Boycott specifically used the players colour to critisize their knighthoods and suggest they only got them for "PC" reasons. With the "blacking up" statement as well it goes beyong the "edgy" relams of Top Gear in to straight up "not acceptable" mode. Even if you take the race element out (which his apology tries to sidestep) its demeaning and offensive to the players involved, and joke or not reveals his own ego is genuinely out of control.

Now yes rich white western men do tend to get picked up more readily on this stuff, but thats beacuse they come form the position of power and cultural dominance in these things,, as well as the sense of entitlement and privelledge that says " its ok for us to do this because we arent offended". Theres nuances and context to be considered in all cases but this was pretty clealry a daft thing to say even jokingly for someone in his position and indicative of a traits hes been critisized for previously. The guy is extremely arrogant and has a massive sense of entitlement, and cares little for the opinions and feelings of others. 

I genuinely enjoy listening to him at times and the persona can be enjoyable on commentary. I laughed out loud when he ripped a caller apart to a phone in and they had to send him out of the studio when he called them an idiot. I want to like Boycott, and I want him on radio/TV ... but like Prince Phillip he crosses the line from grumpy old man into utter arse far too easily.

[Gooseberry]

The problem with Boycott is he's got this delusional belief that he was better than he actually was. In and around his area he wasn't in the vlsss of batsmen like Gavaskar or Greg Chappell. And Boycott went missing against the great Windies side time and again

He also literally went missing "injured" at one point...then turned up on the golf course whilst the rest of his team were fielding...

Whereas people like Phil Tufnell would just get caught smoking weed.....

I guess the Botham run out incident would be another example of his sense of self importance taking over the team. Its always a fine line between the confidence and self belief required to be a great sportsperson and the problematic behaviours displayed by people like Boycott and in a different way Pietersen.

[msp83]

a white man cannot make a genuine comment on the problems caused by / nonperformance of  colored person......else he is likely to be branded racist

a man man cannot make a genuine comment on the problems caused by / nonperformance of  a woman......else he is likely to be branded sexist / misogynist

This is utter tosh KPF.

Theres endless criticism of players who are also black in this discussion, noone has been accussed of being racist.

Why? Because we havent said " The black players of west Indies are lazzy and rubbish" and linked their race/colour or any other non relevant factor to their performance. We havent said or inferred that all black people are lazy.

White people are quite welcome to critisize people who are women and who are black (and do quite regulalry) , whats not acceptable is to critisize them simply for being those things or make statements that single them out for one of those arbitrary factors unless its genuinely relevant. Chrtis Gayle is lazy and greedy...fine. Black men like Chris Gayle are lazy and greedy ...not fine. The black man Chris Gayle is lazy and greedy, not fine. Andrew Symonds is a monkey ...really not OK.
 Is it that hard to understand the difference and why someone might find it problematic to suggest that players got knighted because they are black?

Were you OK with Prince Phillips "looks like it was done by an Indian" comment?

In this case Boycott specifically used the players colour to critisize their knighthoods and suggest they only got them for "PC" reasons. With the "blacking up" statement as well it goes beyong the "edgy" relams of Top Gear in to straight up "not acceptable" mode. Even if you take the race element out (which his apology tries to sidestep) its demeaning and offensive to the players involved, and joke or not reveals his own ego is genuinely out of control.

Now yes rich white western men do tend to get picked up more readily on this stuff, but thats beacuse they come form the position of power and cultural dominance in these things,, as well as the sense of entitlement and privelledge that says " its ok for us to do this because we arent offended". Theres nuances and context to be considered in all cases but this was pretty clealry a daft thing to say even jokingly for someone in his position and indicative of a traits hes been critisized for previously. The guy is extremely arrogant and has a massive sense of entitlement, and cares little for the opinions and feelings of others. 

I genuinely enjoy listening to him at times and the persona can be enjoyable on commentary. I laughed out loud when he ripped a caller apart to a phone in and they had to send him out of the studio when he called them an idiot. I want to like Boycott, and I want him on radio/TV ... but like Prince Phillip he crosses the line from grumpy old man into utter arse far too easily.

Yes, agree with you entirely there, Gooseberry. Boycott got this absolutely wrong, and there is no defending him in this regard, though he can be quite likable and interesting when he gets it right.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Sir Chris returns to the side tomorrow <3

[wisden]

Which is fine, haven't got a problem with it. However, before the first test the selectors said he wasn't included in final XI because he hadn't had enough match pratice...however he hasn't played a game since they made those comments, so bit contradictory..

[Gooseberry]

Oops oh that chris!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Silly pundits saying England should bowl first, despite it being blazing sunshine, a good looking pitch just because England bowled WI out cheaply last time.

Luckily Root isn't that silly and bats first, which they needed to do

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

West Indies make two changes - Bishoo for Joseph and Gabriel for Cummins.

Makes their bowling much stronger imo - Gabriel and Bishoo are probably their two best bowlers for me

[sirfredperry]

Well no one can accuse Root of being a useless naughty naughty boy, as he's come out victorious yet again and England will bat first.
   If only England had enough good batsmen to have been as ruthless with their batting as they have been with their bowling, in leaving T RJ out.

Whoops. Automatic change to my original wording. Didn't realise double entendres were disallowed. May have to review the decision.

[alfie]

West Indies making the sensible changes. They might have considered dropping a batsman and including an extra seamer but perhaps Holder will be fit enough to bowl his fair share this time.
Root proving a lucky captain with tossing so far...obviously bats first : I wonder if the silly pundits wanting England to bowl are partly motivated by a desire to see how England coped chasing a score ? It is certainly true they've tended to fail a lot recently when forced to do so ; but I don't think you can give up the advantage of winning the toss just as an experiment - even against this apparently extremely weak opponent.
Think the inclusion of Gabriel and Bishoo will mean the bats are given a bit more of a test this time. And of course it is still a big audition for the new bats who don't have too many chances left to put a firm marker down for the Ashes trip...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

For me Alfie I think Holder unbalances the West Indies side - he is nowhere near good enough to be a 3rd seamer in test cricket, and his captaincy is very poor. 42 wickets in 24 tests....

[alfie]

For me Alfie I think Holder unbalances the West Indies side - he is nowhere near good enough to be a 3rd seamer in test cricket, and his captaincy is very poor. 42 wickets in 24 tests....

I agree , Olly. He really is only a fourth seamer ...and although he is a gutsy late order bat he really can't bat much higher - seven at a pinch , perhaps. But that calls for a keeper who can really bat in the top six...

His captaincy at Edgbaston was poor , true. I don't know whether that is always the case : leading this team is a problem for anyone , to be fair.

But in general I think he suffers from the same flaws as Darren Sammy before him...

[LionsV2]

Westley looks to be on borrowed time already, there is no chance of succeeding at test level being so reliant on the leg side accentuated by the fact he's played round it 3 or 4 times already.

[Duty281]

England 38-3.

More a case of poor batting than good bowling, in truth.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England 38-3.

More a case of poor batting than good bowling, in truth.

The dismissal shots yes, but West Indies have bowled far better here so far than they did at Edgbaston. Keeping it tight, no free runs, and Gabriel has been sharp

[alfie]

Blimey...go out for forty minutes and come back to see England back in a hole...
What was all that about West Indies being so pathetic that England only had to turn up
Just saw the wickets : getting concerned about Westley : he started off well against SA but seems to be getting worse not better after a couple of matches ; bowlers have picked up his technical flaws and are working him over.
Stoneman appears to have played himself in all right today but then he's gone and given it away...

Not good signs for the Ashes tour : and a bit of work ahead for Root and co right now !

[alfie]

Root is a lucky man

That was a sitter.

Have to say West Indies are bowling pretty well here... Can't complain about lack of a contest at the moment...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

As good as WIndies were that session, you get the feeling that Root drop might be the moment we look back on as a "what if"....

[alfie]

Fine session for West Indies ... Would have been perfect if they'd caught Root as well.
Chase rather released the pressure just before lunch but I guess they couldn't bowl the seamers into the ground.
Malan playing against type : showing he has patience as well as attacking strokes. Remains to be seen if he has the class ; but given the way the top order have been cleaned up today , if he does get a score this time we will have to take him seriously.

That top order continues to be a big worry. At least it doesn't look like another innings win is on the cards so they'll get a second hit...

First hour after lunch might be interesting.

[sirfredperry]

Well, those who want to see more of a contest in this series should not be complaining. Windies were so dire at Edgbaston that anything here was bound to be an improvement. Root looked as if he was already off to the pavilion with that dropped catch and then realised he was still in.

[alfie]

Malan's patient vigil ended by an inside edge to an angled delivery from Holder !

So he's no nearer securing a place ; and England are very much in disarray at 71/4

Can the all rounders bail them out again ?

[guildfordbat]

Morning / afternoon all - back to see we're 72/4.

Not panic stricken at this stage but hardly encouraged either.

Just watched - whilst one of the Chuckle brothers tried to sort the sightscreen!! - the four dismissals. Good catch to get Cook. The other batters seemed pretty culpable. Dreadful drop as well - real let off for Root, he and England must make that count. Hopefully, Olly will be right about it proving to be a turning point.

Loose shot by Stoneman when he was out - uncharacteristic from what I've seen of him. How did he look before that?  Appreciate answers - however positive - don't get him on the plane to Australia without scores to match. Just interested, cheers.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

So, we look at possibly being unsure of Westley, Malan and Stoneman. Balance equally not trusted, neither is Jennings.

Say we replace the current playing three listed there and don't use Ballance or Jennings; who are the candidates to come into this side?

[guildfordbat]

So, we look at possibly being unsure of Westley, Malan and Stoneman. Balance equally not trusted, neither is Jennings.

Say we replace the current playing three listed there and don't use Ballance or Jennings; who are the candidates to come into this side?

Dolph - that's a hugely relevant question and equally difficult to answer.

Browne and Lawrence at Essex and Burns at Surrey have some ability and have scored some runs. However, they were respectively behind their county colleagues Westley and Stoneman a couple of weeks ago. I'm far from convinced that Westley and Stoneman flopping should enhance the reputations of their lesser county colleagues and suddenly make them ready for Test cricket.

We could return to the past and look again at, say, Hales and/or Robson. That could actually happen.

The selectors generally seem to avoid batsmen plying their trade in Division Two. That's a bit tough as it's not entirely their fault as to what Division they're in. However, it has to be acknowledged that scoring runs against Division Two bowlers is not ideal preparation for an Ashes encounter. If the selectors did look at the so so called second tier, maybe those coming under the microscope would be Bell-Drummond or Northeast [or, as Goose would say, anyone from Kent with a long name! ].

[sirfredperry]

G'bat. All the county cricket I've seen this season has been Div 1 and I must say the bowling has looked far from impressive - let alone what it's like in Div 2.
   Root out to a silly shot yet again. Bit much to criticise a guy who is carrying the batting. BUT IT HAPPENS TOO OFTEN FOR HIM TO BE CALLED A GREAT BATSMAN.

[alfie]

Stokes goes to his fifty with a lovely flowing drive

Follows it with a better one...he had some luck against Roach but he has played some fine shots as well.

Not that easy for the batsmen today : perhaps those advocating bowling first weren't quite so crazy as it seemed at the toss ?

Good to see West Indies competing : and I for one am not going to select a team for Lord's until this match is over , let alone an Ashes party.

But a couple of comments : Stoneman at least batted for forty odd balls and what I saw wasn't too bad. Got out to a loose shot but too early to call time on him.
Westley has an obvious technical flaw ; which is a pity as he looks to have the temperament for three...whether he has the ability remains to be seen. He has to learn (quickly !) how to adjust his game to negate that weakness or he won't get a chance to show us.
Malan I felt was trying too hard to prove he's not just a happy slogger. Went too defensive , in my view , and has to find a halfway house if he's to advance.
They'll all get a second innings here. Will be instructive.

[alfie]

Been a good tussle today. Pace men have been threatening but the spinners really haven't been able to keep any pressure on and that is where England are bidding to salvage a half decent score. Stokes really playing well now.

But as I type Moeen falls to a fine low catch at cover and England are seven down for just 220...

Woakes needs to show he can bat as well as Toby now

[Duty281]

Dismal innings from England.

Windies have bowled better than in the first test - though they still gift too many wayward balls - but England have helped them immensely by gifting their wickets away.

[alfie]

Stokes dropped on 98 !

But then he gets the hundred next ball

Fortune favors the bold ...though I do have some sympathy for Roach.

241/7. Recovery is on...I'm off to bed.

Good luck you Surrey chaps...

[guildfordbat]

Stokes dropped on 98 !

But then he gets the hundred next ball

Fortune favors the bold ...though I do have some sympathy for Roach.

241/7.   Recovery is on...I'm off to bed.

Good luck you Surrey chaps...

Thanks, Alfie. Unable to watch much today - will try to catch the highlights and post later. Sleep well.

Just to add. 300+ looks on from here, particularly with Sir Chris riding shotgun. Still not particularly impressive but should more than do.

[wisden]

All out 258...dissapointing batting performance from England...but West Indies bowled relaly welll...particuarly Shannon Gabriel...

[guildfordbat]

Stokes dropped on 98 !

But then he gets the hundred next ball

Fortune favors the bold ...though I do have some sympathy for Roach.

241/7.   Recovery is on...I'm off to bed.

Good luck you Surrey chaps...

Thanks, Alfie. Unable to watch much today - will try to catch the highlights and post later. Sleep well.

Just to add. 300+ looks on from here, particularly with Sir Chris riding shotgun. Still not particularly impressive but should more than do.

Sorry, folks. Hold my hands up to that jinx!

[wisden]

Anderson gets Powell early

[msp83]

So England decided they needed a contest. And West Indies for ones got their xi selection to somewhere around decent though they are carrying their captain for no good as a 3rd seamer. Roach and Gabriel bowled well, Roach in particular managed not to rip the heads of some of his teammates who would have made an under-10 side cringe with revulsion at their pathetic if you can call it, 'fielding'.
Good innings from Ben Stokes, had some significant luck going for him, but played a fine hand nevertheless. Joe Root, bored with all those 50 + scores, tried his level best to get out early, but the Drop Indies would have none of it and dutifully saw him through to yet another, record equalling 50.
England have 258 on the board, and they managed to take out only 1 wicket in the 45 minutes of bowling. The West Indies are still 239 behind, they would hopefully go pass the follow-on mark and even if they don't can't see Root enforcing it! Seriously, I won't be surprised at all if England take a bit of a lead, not very likely to be a substantial one, but any which way, the new players in the top order should certainly get another opportunity. Didn't follow much of Westly in the South Africa series though had read some decent reviews on him, but he seems to be getting out LBW playing across straight balls far too regularly. Unless he can find a way through very quickly, his test career won't be long. Stoneman was neither here nor there, a bit of a nothing innings ended by an absolutely nothing shot, but he did spend some time out in the middle. Malan for me isn't really test class. Too many weaknesses, and I am not too sure about his temperament for test cricket really.

[eirebilly]

Early days this morning but I would give the ball to Stokes or Woakes ahead of Broad to partner Anderson.

[compelling and rich]

everyone bar anderson has been poor so far, if only we had another decent swing bowler who's been successful in his test career so far

[alfie]

So at this point midway through day two I'd suggest reports of the death of Test Cricket and predictions of this series being a complete waste of time were a little wide of the mark...

Are West Indies perhaps not quite as hopeless as they were judged to be a week ago ? Or are England basically pretty ordinary when they don't have the best of the conditions ?

Bit of both maybe : had to go out so missed a fair bit of today's play but from what I've seen there's a gulf between Anderson and the rest of the attack (given Broad is having a poor game so far) and a couple of batsmen prepared to play within their limitations are showing up those of the fielding team ...a test for the new skipper.
I wonder if the selection of an apparently undercooked Woakes for the so far rather impressive Roland-Jones is going to prove a serious error ? It did seem odd that he was brought in having not played any warm up matches after ostensibly being overlooked for that precise reason for Egbaston. Don't change a winning team...

Too early to panic : break this stand and it's a new game ; but at the moment the tourists seem headed for a decent lead on first innings and that will certainly put a bit of added pressure on the tenuously placed new batsmen when they return to the crease for England.

Those who were complaining about lack of a contest a week ago should be pleased anyway...

[alfie]

Hmm...review in desperation I think. No good ...no bat...

Actually hard to see where a wicket is coming from on the looks of things since lunch. Might be time for young Joe to try his own golden arm ?

[msp83]

Alfie,
West Indies haven't disgraced themselves in this game so far. By their recent standards, the match would enter formality region by now, the opposition having to apply the finishing touch and decide the kind of margin they would want. But this has been much better than that. Doesn't mean they have even arrested the fall, let alone turning the corner. Brathwaite is the one batsman close to proven test quality for them, and young Shai Hope is considered a hope for the future. They both are playing their A game, and have played really well. But a wicket here can open up the entire innings, and they might fold before you realize. But by the look of things they might end taking a bit of a led, and England will have to bat better 2nd time around, bat well and bat big, and the game might even go to a 5th day you never know.

[alfie]

Yes five days looks likely now - unless England collapse tomorrow

But I agree this doesn't necessarily herald the next golden age of West Indies cricket : just good to see them putting up a proper show ...the big question for them will be whether they can sustain it through not just the rest of this innings but their second bowling stint and their second turn at bat. In my experience , "limited" teams like theirs tend to compete for two days , maybe three - but struggle to keep it up for all five...

Even so , England are looking a bit short of ideas at the moment . New ball is a long way off , Stokes and Woakes not very effective , and there must be some concern as to how they might cope if the tourists can get , say , 400 in this innings ? Which doesn't look impossible at the moment with the aggressive Blackwood to come...

Hundred for Brathwaite Achieved in style with a six...Westley doesn't look too threatening with ball in hand.

[sirfredperry]

At 4.30pm on the second day there is a real possibility that England will now lose this match. At least there will be less talk of two divisions in Test cricket after this (unless someone suggests England should be in the second division!).

[alfie]

At 4.30pm on the second day there is a real possibility that England will now lose this match. At least there will be less talk of two divisions in Test cricket after this (unless someone suggests England should be in the second division!).

Indeed England face a considerable task to save this game now : you'd think West Indies are on course for a lead of anything up to 200 given the forecast is for more fine weather tomorrow. The new ball hasn't done the trick , Anderson is the only bowler to have looked remotely dangerous , and these two batsmen look set to bat as long as they want...

Obviously so much easier to bat here when the sun shines - and there really doesn't appear to be anything there for the bowlers at the moment. Not helping England that Woakes in particular is serving up a regular helping of boundary balls - have to get Olly to have a word with him at close of play
Jokes aside it is looking increasingly like a selection error to have brought him in for TRJ instead of letting him have a run with his county side.

Unless one of these chaps has a lapse of concentration I'm blessed if I can see where a wicket is coming from...and if they go in just three down tonight I fancy the England batsmen may not sleep too comfortably .

And as I type Broad finally breaks through ! End of a wonderful innings from Brathwaite

Now England need a couple more quickly...

[alfie]

Stokes getting another one very welcome wicket with a lifting delivery to Chase....England will be desperate to get Blackwood now as he could take the game away from them very quickly if he gets set in the morning...

[sirfredperry]

An England defeat is now very much on the cards, especially as Eng seem short of batsmen. No doubt we will now have to put up with the usual guff from the Eng players about "knocking them over quickly in the morning and then batting brilliantly to win the match". Don't think either will happen. But, hey, everyone wanted a good contest. Be careful what you wish for.

[Duty281]

I said before the series started that I wouldn't be surprised if the Windies won a test; they've got an excellent chance here.

[sirfredperry]

It should be remembered that Windies beat England in the Carribean not so long ago when Eng had a much stronger side.
   I'm not too worried as I'm due to go to Lord's for the first 3 days of the final Test next month when England will do their usual trick of bouncing back from a horror show. 2-1 to England.

[msp83]

Lets start some due credit. Kraigg Brathwaite is one West Indies player I have been willing to put up with. I had very high hopes of him when he burst on to the seen and still admire his attitude to test cricket and believe he has a pretty good temperament. He has a decent enough technique but hasn't had enough shots. So refreshing to see him channel The Sehwag Spirit to go to his 50 and 100 with sixes! It was a well earned hundred for Brathwaite. The first session was quite testing, the ball kept doing things, he got beaten at times, at times he edged them, but as he played with soft hands, the edges never really carried. And he didn't remain shotless or scoreless, something he used to do in the past. So that is one player showing some improvement for the West Indies, and that in itself is news, even without the score as such.
Shai Hope has already played a couple of decent knocks in ODIs and is highly rated. Good to see him getting that first hundred, hopefully there will be many more to come. Like Brathwaite's effort, his knock has also been a fine one. He came in when the side was already under pressure as James Anderson had reduced them to 35-3, and on the back on the embarrassment of last week, that could have turned into something really nasty had he gone early. He put his head down instad, took his time early and at times batted even slower than Brathwaite. Then he gained in confidence, played some nice shots and went back not out overnight.
Anderson bowled well an got the ball talking in the morning. For most of the day, he looked like the only bowler who could take a wicket. Said that, even he could have bowled a bitter fuller, a bit more than he managed. Ben Stokes was always striving, bowled some good overs in between, and eventually got the important wicket of Roston Chase, who is a test quality batsman in the West Indies lineup with an effort ball that carried nicely to slip.

[msp83]

Now, in the larger context of the game, the breakthrough wicket wicket of Brathwaite, and the addition of Chase late in the day would mean that England can still bounce back tomorrow. I won't be the least bit surprised if the West Indies get bowled out for 350 tomorrow morning, that will only be the resumption of normal service. But if Hope can keep their hopes alive in the morning, and if Blackwood gets going, England might end up looking at a substantial lead. Dowrich is a bit of a fighter, and Holder is better with the bat than with the ball.
Even then, if the cloud cover doesn't return big time, don't think the West Indies bowlers will find it easier 2nd time around. And Root and Cook should get back to their merry ways. At least one of Stoneman, Westly and Malan is likely to get some runs. If England manage to restrict the lead to around 100-120, then they would very much be in the game. And the West Indies fight is unlikely to last into the 4th innings, though I hope otherwise.

[KP_fan]

--I think the pitch was just a bit more nippy yesterday... and batting quality for more superior today.....proper, get-set, build and inning, see-off new ball, put your head down when there is a good spell... and milk the bad / weak bowling patches.....proper test match batting

--On the contrary Eng's proper batsmen did not play test match like innings and but for the dropped catches of Stokes / Root and missed DRS of stokes....Eng wouldn't have crossed 200

--WI need to keep applying themselves tomm...and build a lead of 150 atleast..Hope, Blackwood, Dorwich and Holder...there is still some batting to go and Blackwood needs to last one hour.....to move the scoreboard quite quickly.

Chase ( Moeen equivalent) and Bishoo (better than Rashid) will spin them to a win. I have seen enough spin in this pitch, and on D2 there is already some variable bounce.... and under the cushion of a size-able lead the spin-community thrives rather well.

--Didn't Someone on this forum say a few days back " Talent is not the problem with WI"

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