2017/18 Champions League and Europa League thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Dejan Lovren is hilariously awful

[wisden]

as are your posts

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

as are your posts

Savage CF today

[GSC]

At some point the buck stops with Klopp for Liverpools defense

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I have absolutely no idea how Hoffenheim haven't scored

[lfc91]

Well Liverpool tried their best to lose that. Both teams could have scored a bag full by 80th minute but when you get to that stage, 2-0 up and on top any decent team can just see that out. But with Lovren in there playing everyone on side any ball over the top is going to be a danger... Take and finish from Uth were pretty great though.

Good result overall.

[Crimey]

Definitely take a 2-1 away win back. It's also the last time Hoffenheim have lost at home since the 15-16 season, so it's a better result than it appears. 

I think it just has to be accepted that Klopp is a risk taking manager and that Liverpool are never going to have a top defence under him, because he's willing to sacrifice defensive solidity for attacking flair. The one part I think he can have no excuses in improving is set pieces, they have nothing to do with pressing high up the pitch, it's just poor organisation, poor concentration. It's the exact same problems since at the very least 2012 with entirely different defences, so I don't know what is going wrong.

[lfc91]

Yeah has to be mental issues. Liverpool get a rep as poor from set pieces so the players worry during set pieces and opposing players are filled with confidence that they can score from any set piece. Also teams more likely to target set pieces knowing our weakness so can end up facing an above average number. Bottom line though, we are terrible at defending set pieces. Doesn't look like it will improve anytime soon either.

[BamBam]

Any coach who can't see that Firmino is not the man to be defending the edge of the 6 yard box from a corner needs his head checking tbh

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Just seen the Celtic highlights...fair to say the Astana GK was erm... well not good at football

[Crimey]

Any coach who can't see that Firmino is not the man to be defending the edge of the 6 yard box from a corner needs his head checking tbh

The problem is, who do you put there? People cry about zonal marking, but the Liverpool side is small. Klopp is bigger than all but one member of the squad. You swap our Firmino for, let's say Emre Can or Jordan Henderson who are slightly taller and maybe more aggressive in defence, but then they're missing from the box where all the opposing team's tallest players are attacking the ball. It's a lose-lose situation but the solution surely can't be just sign taller players?

[BamBam]

Managers like Klopp and Wenger are so focused on the team going forward, things like set piece defence just get ignored then exploited by other teams

Van Dijk may be far superior to Matip and Lovren, but he will only really be taking the place of either of those in defensive situations.

Any team needs balance, you can't play a starting 11 of basketball players (although Mourinho seems to be trying) but can't have 5 foot midgets in every department other than centre back

[lfc91]

Yes we are a relatively small team which doesn't help. However, many of our set piece issues aren't simply a player getting out competed for a 50/50 header. Much of the time its positional, like Okaka having a free header from 5 yards. Players in the wrong place. Also some times it is just ridiculous mistakes from the players themselves. Like Winajdum having the opportunity to clear a corner in the 93 minutes but elects to head in into an opposing player, keeping it in our box to then end up in the net.

So while the height doesn't help, it looks to me that the coaching/mentality is to blame on more occasions.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Firmino is reasonably good with his head so I'm certainly not against it.

Looks to me like something not coached well enough, although I think it may also be down to a lack of leadership in the side. Klopp has a type when it comes to defenders and I'd bet "organisational" doesn't come into it. They don't seem to have a personality in there who lives and dies by clean sheets.

[Guest]

Europa league standard group for United. Liverpool should be very happy, as should City. Spurs have Real Madrid & Dortmund, so have had a mare. Chelsea vs Atletico was for Diego

[Duty281]

Celtic

[lfc91]

Happy with our draw. Be disappointed not to qualify from that group. Some tough fixtures but all winnable, no teams who are levels above us.

Glad Celtic got that draw, getting sick of the smug look on Rodgers face that comes from winning a one horse race.

[Crimey]

Half happy, half disappointed with the draw. Would have liked at least one "bigger" club in the group for the atmosphere and the occasion. Not much point getting to the Champions League if you're playing Europa League sides anyway. Also think it's deceptively harder because Liverpool tend to struggle with smaller sides and put away the bigger ones so going to have to make sure we're not complacement and we need Anfield to be like it was on Wednesday, because it's clear that when the crowd's pumped up the players perform much better.

[superflyweight]

Happy with our draw. Be disappointed not to qualify from that group. Some tough fixtures but all winnable, no teams who are levels above us.

Glad Celtic got that draw, getting sick of the smug look on Rodgers face that comes from winning a one horse race.

Why is Celtic's draw particularly bad? They're not going to win the tournament and for a relatively young team and a club operating under financial limitations which don't allow it to p1ss away £35 million on Andy Carroll, the last 16 is something which is hoped for and not expected.

The group stages are the highlight of our season so having 4 glamour ties against 2 genuine European heavyweights is great. If the planets align then we may repeat what we did against Barcelona in 2012 and what we've done against numerous European giants in the past 15 years or so.

That then leaves us with a straight shoot-out against Anderlecht for third place and the Europa League slot. By no means a certainty, but achievable.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Agree on that, Celtic probably want a load of giants rather than a tough but possible.

[Crimey]

Rodgers has done a really good job with Celtic. Okay it's a one horse race in the league but they showed a lot of good stuff in the Champions League last year and also are well out performing what his predecessor could achieve at Celtic. I think that should have been the natural step after Swansea as he ultimately struggled with the pressure of Liverpool. I wouldn't be surprised if they do well i nthat group, despite it's difficulty and could have a decent run in the Europa League. I would not be surprised to see a bigger club snap up Rodgers, more likely to be abroad rather than back to England as I'm not sure any of Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea, Tottenham or Arsenal will touch him.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Did he struggle? Klopp hasn't come in and made Rodgers look like he struggled.

[superflyweight]

Am sure Rodgers had a higher points per game total over a similar number of games.

[Crimey]

He certainly struggled towards the end. The end of the 14/15 season was a nightmare and then they just never got going at the start of 15/16.

There are a few misleading parts of those statistics though.

1. That includes the season where Rodgers very nearly won the league and earned a lot more points than he did across his other 2 and a bit seasons. The fact that across Klopp's seasons that points per game is close to Rodgers when he has that anomaly season.

2. It also includes the end of the 15/16 season when Klopp basically gave up on the league to focus on the two cup competitions because of the number of injuries. 

You'd be hard pressed to find any football fan who can't admit that Klopp has improved Liverpool.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Or a Liverpool fan who won't change his mind to support whatever the current situation at their club is

[Crimey]

Or a Liverpool fan who won't change his mind to support whatever the current situation at their club is

I had the same criticisms of Rodgers when he was at the club! There's nothing retrospective about it.

[GSC]

If we disregard one managers best season and excuse the others worst spell then its closer.

[Crimey]

More if we acknowledge that the 13/14 season was both fantastic and an anomaly for Rodgers, then using a points per game metric to measure Klopp against Rodgers actually makes Klopp look better.

[Duty281]

Steven Gerrard calling Basel 'Basil' has already made this evening a highlight!

Get him on comms, BT.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

In my neverending football search of pace for English football, could Joe Gomez work as the right sided centre back of a 3 man defence? (As an aside, I hope Chalobah ends Livermore's England career)

[Duty281]

Great starts for Tottenham and City.

Liverpool not smart enough to see out their game, unsurprisingly.

[sirfredperry]

Was at Wembley for the Spurs-Dortmund match. The German side were totally dominant in the first 45 minutes, with Spurs scoring with their only shots of the half.
   Tottenham much better in the second half and the margin of victory could have been more. However, Dortmund's disallowed goal should have stood.
   Spurs now have good chance of advancing in this group, especially if they can avoid defeat in Dortmund.

[lfc91]

Well that was frustratingly predictable. Liverpool could have been home and dry, but when they failed to put themselves in that position only one thing was going to happen.

On the one hand, hard to blame Klopp for individual errors. Not his fault Lovren defended like a drunk sunday league player to give away a goal 5 mins in. Also can't be blamed for Firmino not scoring a penalty to make our position comfortable.

On the other, the fact that Lovren is still in our first choice pairing after so many seasons making these errors can be blamed, at least on some part, on the manager. Ok the top choice didn't pan out. SIGN SOMEONE ELSE! For god sake Jonny Evans would be an improvement over Lovren.

Result is not the end of the world. Still in a good position to qualify from the group. Just the continuous cycle of these types of issues causing us to lose/drop points is ridiculous.

City as expected. Tottenham were impressive. Kane really is a goal machine. To bad he is just a one season wonder....

[sirfredperry]

Ifc91 - Wonder what the record is for one-season wonders? Was Alan Shearer, for example, a 17-season wonder? Bobby Charlton (1956-73) really only had, er, 18 decent seasons.
   Thierry Henry probably had at least one season when he failed to get 30 goals. So, clearly, he was not much good either.
   More seriously, football players seem not to suffer the second-season syndrome that so affects cricket batsmen. Bang in the goals one season and you're likely to do so again the next year. But a good first year in cricket seems to be followed by a series of low scores the next (witness Lancashire's Hameed).

[Beer]

lfc91, of course Jonny Evans would be an improvement for Lovren, he's been courted by top sides because he's composed, competent, and has the ability to play the ball out from the back. Just cause he plays for West Brom doesn't mean he should be dismissed in the way you have.

[lfc91]

lfc91, of course Jonny Evans would be an improvement for Lovren, he's been courted by top sides because he's composed, competent, and has the ability to play the ball out from the back. Just cause he plays for West Brom doesn't mean he should be dismissed in the way you have.

Actually, it was more a joke comment made due to him coming from/playing for my country (NI) and the fact we don't regularly produce players who play at the top clubs. Nice life lesson for you in regards to making assumptions about something you don't have a clue about (In this instance the reasoning behind a strangers comment).

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Jesus Christ guys, you can reply to that by saying "sorry, you've missed my point."

Gotta remember comments on the internet are easy to misread, especially when trying nuanced sarcasm!

Not sure Liverpool's individuals are hugely to blame in defence, although all could be improved.

[Beer]

I'm just as surprised as you, Dolph, I mean, he's a Liverpool fan and it's their year! I would've thought he'd be riddled with excitement.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Go punch a horse

[Beer]

Do I look like Davy Russell?

[lfc91]

Completely misses a point, comes back with something completely irrelevant to the original comments. Impressive debating technique.

Dolph, sometimes it is clear as day it is a defensive issue on the whole causing issues for Liverpool. Sometimes it is clear it is an individuals fault. Last night (the first goal at least) was definitely the latter.

[Crimey]

One of the big problems last night was Klopp's late, reactive substitutions. The team, particularly in attack were nackered about 10 minutes before he decided to make a change, after we'd already conceded the equaliser. It's frustrating, I don't understand the point of putting Oxlade-Chamberlain on with 3 minutes to go. I understand Klopp has faith in his team and wants to demonstrate that, but if it's not exactly a show of faith in his subs, because he doesn't seem to think they can change the game or puts them on when they wouldn't be able to.

Last year and the year before he had the excuses of poor depth, but there were 4 or 5 game changing players on the bench last night that Klopp decided not to use and it cost us the two points.

[Beer]

Completely misses a point, comes back with something completely irrelevant to the original comments. Impressive debating technique.

Dolph, sometimes it is clear as day it is a defensive issue on the whole causing issues for Liverpool. Sometimes it is clear it is an individuals fault. Last night (the first goal at least) was definitely the latter.

Your point had literally no context referring to your NI connections, lack of top players etc, all mine did was point out that he was better than your actual comment gave him credit for. Dolph has a point, you could've explained how I missed your point, and I would've laughed it off, and debated the footballing talents of Evans, Liverpool's defensive frailties. However, your passive aggressive, petty, almost childish little retort is the exact reason I didn't come back with anything relevant. What would be the point? You've already established that you seem incapable of illustrating your points properly, or even engaging with humans, for that matter.

It's a shame. In another life, we could have been brothers. Running a small, quirky taverna in Sicily. Maybe we would have married the local twins instead of wasting each other's time here. But it was not to be. Enjoy your day, lfc.

[lfc91]

Completely misses a point, comes back with something completely irrelevant to the original comments. Impressive debating technique.

Dolph, sometimes it is clear as day it is a defensive issue on the whole causing issues for Liverpool. Sometimes it is clear it is an individuals fault. Last night (the first goal at least) was definitely the latter.

Your point had literally no context referring to your NI connections, lack of top players etc, all mine did was point out that he was better than your actual comment gave him credit for. Dolph has a point, you could've explained how I missed your point, and I would've laughed it off, and debated the footballing talents of Evans, Liverpool's defensive frailties. However, your passive aggressive, petty, almost childish little retort is the exact reason I didn't come back with anything relevant. What would be the point? You've already established that you seem incapable of illustrating your points properly, or even engaging with humans, for that matter.

It's a shame. In another life, we could have been brothers. Running a small, quirky taverna in Sicily. Maybe we would have married the local twins instead of wasting each other's time here. But it was not to be. Enjoy your day, lfc.

And you could have asked me what my point was before making a (wrong) assumptions and using it to try and ridicule me for supposedly dismissing a player due to the club he plays for. All I did was point out where making an assumption rather than asking for more information had gotten you. So neither of us did what we could/should have done to engage more amicably?

Strange though that one comment on a forum could be used by anyone to come to the conclusion the poster is incapable of "engaging with humans". Anyone making those sort of wild leaps would, IMO, be the person who could be more likely deemed to be behaving childishly, or being petty, or insert any of your clever insults...

[GSC]

The problem is philosophy rather than players. Klopp doesn't really seem to have much of a plan beyond pressing. When it doesn't work, they're wide open to counter.

City have a similar problem, but at least Pep limits the damage by starving the opposition of possession.

Not sure going to buy new CBs helps as much as a tactical rethink.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

God you should both shut up cos you both look dumb now.

My point is really that consistent individual mistakes from different individuals probably means there's more to it than just the basic error. If they keep happening, it becomes less of an anomaly and coincidence.

[lfc91]

Well the sheer volume of individual errors occuring at Liverpool over the last 4/5 seasons Rodgers/Klopp eras, would IMO definitely be above the norm for most clubs. Could well be similar to what happens with corners i.e. the defensive style leaves Liverpool players more exposed than normal so more likely than normal to make an error.

Still, hard not to look at Lovrens performances week on week and think "that guy just is not very good at defending..." regardless of the style of play.

[lfc91]

Although the alternative is playing Klavan... Maybe once Clyne comes back Klopp will take a punt with Gomez as 3rd choice CB. Look a good young player to me but just not a RB.

[GSC]

And yet his reputation at Southampton isn't far removed from where VVD is now. Matip came from Germany with a good reputation. Moreno wasn't a mug in Spain etc.

Hard to keep arguing the failure is with individuals rather than systemic.

[Beer]

lfc,

If you took 'ridicule' from my post, that's a shame for you, cause it wasn't intended, but as for your post...

On the other, the fact that Lovren is still in our first choice pairing after so many seasons making these errors can be blamed, at least on some part, on the manager. Ok the top choice didn't pan out. SIGN SOMEONE ELSE! For god sake Jonny Evans would be an improvement over Lovren.

Nothing there alludes to any of the points you're trying to defend yourself with. 'All you did' was act passive aggressively, case in point.

Nice life lesson for you in regards to making assumptions about something you don't have a clue about (In this instance the reasoning behind a strangers comment).

I didn't need a life lesson. Had you dropped out that part of your reply, none of this would've happened.

I'm glad you found my insults clever, though. Every cloud....

Dolph, go blow bubbles.

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