Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

First topic message reminder :

This is a farce, I know I will get ripped apart for this, but it is becoming a joke, what I have just seen in this first half between Leinster and Cardiff is a joke. How is Isa Nacewa still on the field, then going down like he has just been shot to milk a pen on half time. FFS

Also, do not get me started with the scrum, the young Cardiff boy Kieron Assirati is doing a number on Cain Healy yet the ref is letting Cain Healy get away with murder.

2017, Pro14, nothing changes.

Anyway, onto the second half.

Oh, just to edit, I forgot to mention Kearnys shoulder tackle when Cardiff were breaking through that was left unpunished by both Brace and Fitzgibbon. Whate a joke.

Pot Hale wrote:

In the Leinster/Cardiff game, the ref's country of origin is Wales.  

In the Leinster / Cardiff game, the ref gets paid by the same organisation as the Leinster players.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

In the Leinster/Cardiff game, the ref's country of origin is Wales.  

In the Leinster / Cardiff game, the ref gets paid by the same organisation as the Leinster players.

Surely that makes it worse and non ethical...

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

In the Leinster/Cardiff game, the ref's country of origin is Wales.  

In the Leinster / Cardiff game, the ref gets paid by the same organisation as the Leinster players.

Except he didn't say that.

Why aren't there more Welsh, Scottish and Italian officials?

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

In the Leinster/Cardiff game, the ref's country of origin is Wales.  

In the Leinster / Cardiff game, the ref gets paid by the same organisation as the Leinster players.

Except he didn't say that.  

Why aren't there more Welsh, Scottish and Italian officials?

Who didn't say what?

My guess is that any old bugger can be an Irish official, regardless of quality.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

In the Leinster/Cardiff game, the ref's country of origin is Wales.  

In the Leinster / Cardiff game, the ref gets paid by the same organisation as the Leinster players.

Except he didn't say that.  

Why aren't there more Welsh, Scottish and Italian officials?

Who didn't say what?

My guess is that any old bugger can be an Irish official, regardless of quality.

You selected what I wrote in response to someone who said country of origin. Which is why I pointed out that Brace is from Wales.

To ensure Irish officials don't have any part in Irish games means there needs to be more of them instead from Wales, Scotland, Italy (and SA). So until those unions get their finger out, the same accusations of bias will continue.

well it's all kicking off in here eh!

tigertattie wrote:well it's all kicking off in here eh!

Just the usual, apparently the Welsh only lose because the Irish rig the league

Pot Hale wrote:
To ensure Irish officials don't have any part in Irish games means there needs to be more of them instead from Wales, Scotland, Italy (and SA).  So until those unions get their finger out, the same accusations of bias will continue.

Couldn't they have swapped the officials from the Edinburgh v Dragons game, which would have meant that both those games had all neutral officials. As it was, neither game had all neutral officials.

Edinburgh vs Dragons
Referee: Stuart Berry (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Quinton Immelman (South Africa), Cwengile Jadezweni (South Africa)
Television match officials: Charles Sampson (Scotland)
Assessor: Jim Fleming (Scotland)

But the pro14 is a cheap league who probably wanted to save money at the expense of competence. The first step to addressing a problem, is to admit there is a problem. This doesn't seem to be high on the agenda for many.

marty2086 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:well it's all kicking off in here eh!

Just the usual, apparently the Welsh only lose because the Irish rig the league

Nigel Owens reffed the pro 12 final and the Scarlets won but they were sublime.

marty2086 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:well it's all kicking off in here eh!

Just the usual, apparently the Welsh only lose because the Irish rig the league

Same old Marty, with the sweeping generalizations. You and Lord Dowlais are like two peas in a pod. Pretty much identical, save for the accent probably.

Collapse2005 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:well it's all kicking off in here eh!

Just the usual, apparently the Welsh only lose because the Irish rig the league

Nigel Owens reffed the pro 12 final and the Scarlets won but they were sublime.

I think I said on here, it was an awful, awful appointment. Just because he didn't affect the outcome of the match doesn't make the appointment a good one.

Ask yourself why sports competitions try and have a neutral referee in the 1st place. Then take a look at how many pro team sports in the world still have non neutral officials. It's not many. But we're just asked to put up with it week in, week out.

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:well it's all kicking off in here eh!

Just the usual, apparently the Welsh only lose because the Irish rig the league

Same old Marty, with the sweeping generalizations. You and Lord Dowlais are like two peas in a pod.  Pretty much identical, save for the accent probably.

Where have I generalised? Read the name of the thread and read LDs comments. He said Leinster were better then basically put it down to the referees performance

marty2086 wrote:
the Welsh only lose because the Irish rig the league

marty2086 wrote:
Where have I generalised?

Amazing lack of self awareness. Hugely talented troll.

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:well it's all kicking off in here eh!

Just the usual, apparently the Welsh only lose because the Irish rig the league

Same old Marty, with the sweeping generalizations. You and Lord Dowlais are like two peas in a pod.  Pretty much identical, save for the accent probably.

Where have I generalised? Read the name of the thread and read LDs comments. He said Leinster were better then basically put it down to the referees performance

You've generalized when you said 'apparently the Welsh', and in doing so lumped us all in with LD. Not sure of the nationality of a couple of posters here such as Rugby Fan and Collapse but I can only see about 3 or 4 Welsh posters commenting here, which is not really representative of a nation of 3 million plus. And I don't think any of them have said that we lose because the Irish rig the league. Only LD has implied it.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
the Welsh only lose because the Irish rig the league

marty2086 wrote:
Where have I generalised?

Amazing lack of self awareness. Hugely talented troll.

That's not generalising that's a pretty accurate summation of what LD has posted on here

All this despite figures showing Irish teams loss more games than they win with Irish officials, even though they dominate the league

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:well it's all kicking off in here eh!

Just the usual, apparently the Welsh only lose because the Irish rig the league

Same old Marty, with the sweeping generalizations. You and Lord Dowlais are like two peas in a pod.  Pretty much identical, save for the accent probably.

Where have I generalised? Read the name of the thread and read LDs comments. He said Leinster were better then basically put it down to the referees performance

You've generalized when you said 'apparently the Welsh', and in doing so lumped us all in with LD.  Not sure of the nationality of a couple of posters here such as Rugby Fan and Collapse but I can only see about 3 or 4 Welsh posters commenting here, which is not really representative of a nation of 3 million plus.  And I don't think any of them have said that we lose because the Irish rig the league.  Only LD has implied it.

Yes the Welsh teams, I wasn't aware you were playing in the Pro14

So I am some sort of conspiracy theorist now am I for having the brass balls to call out why an Irish employed ref and Irish employed TMO decided to only punish one incident correctly which favoured the home Irish side ?

This place is mental.

Why are we one of the only organisations in professional sport who allows officials and players to be employed under the same banner, yet not only are we told we cannot question it, we are told we are loonies for even thinking it ?

Good grief, there would be a public outcry if this happened in any other sport.

When you link the two without facts that's a conspiracy theory

I would say it's more of an observation.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:well it's all kicking off in here eh!

Just the usual, apparently the Welsh only lose because the Irish rig the league

Nigel Owens reffed the pro 12 final and the Scarlets won but they were sublime.

I think I said on here, it was an awful, awful appointment. Just because he didn't affect the outcome of the match doesn't make the appointment a good one.

Ask yourself why sports competitions try and have a neutral referee in the 1st place. Then take a look at how many pro team sports in the world still have non neutral officials. It's not many. But we're just asked to put up with it week in, week out.

Technically most leagues don't have neutral referees because most leagues just span one country and all the refs are from the same country. For international rugby I would definitely advocate neutral refs. I take your point re the pro 12 though, I guess logistically and in terms of having good quality refs its probably a challenge to have neutral ones all the time.

LordDowlais wrote:So I am some sort of conspiracy theorist now am I for having the brass balls to call out why an Irish employed ref and Irish employed TMO decided to only punish one incident correctly which favoured the home Irish side ?

This place is mental.

Why are we one of the only organisations in professional sport who allows officials and players to be employed under the same banner, yet not only are we told we cannot question it, we are told we are loonies for even thinking it ?

Good grief, there would be a public outcry if this happened in any other sport.

No I dont think you are. I think some refs and TMOs are definitely biased towards certain countries. Its human nature.

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:So I am some sort of conspiracy theorist now am I for having the brass balls to call out why an Irish employed ref and Irish employed TMO decided to only punish one incident correctly which favoured the home Irish side ?

This place is mental.

Why are we one of the only organisations in professional sport who allows officials and players to be employed under the same banner, yet not only are we told we cannot question it, we are told we are loonies for even thinking it ?

Good grief, there would be a public outcry if this happened in any other sport.

No I dont think you are. I think some refs and TMOs are definitely biased towards certain countries. Its human nature.

Except LD is seemingly claiming its only the Irish and all the Irish

LordDowlais wrote:So I am some sort of conspiracy theorist now am I for having the brass balls to call out why an Irish employed ref and Irish employed TMO decided to only punish one incident correctly which favoured the home Irish side ?

This place is mental.

Why are we one of the only organisations in professional sport who allows officials and players to be employed under the same banner, yet not only are we told we cannot question it, we are told we are loonies for even thinking it ?

Good grief, there would be a public outcry if this happened in any other sport.

I'm curious. Why do you avoid mentioning that he's Welsh-born in your assessment? Do you think that's not relevant to your argument?

No one disagrees that there should be more neutral referees. The unions need to develop more of them in Scotland, Italy and Wales. I'd be quite happy if there were no Irish refs used in the championship except for Irish derbies if they were essential.

Pot Hale wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:So I am some sort of conspiracy theorist now am I for having the brass balls to call out why an Irish employed ref and Irish employed TMO decided to only punish one incident correctly which favoured the home Irish side ?

This place is mental.

Why are we one of the only organisations in professional sport who allows officials and players to be employed under the same banner, yet not only are we told we cannot question it, we are told we are loonies for even thinking it ?

Good grief, there would be a public outcry if this happened in any other sport.

I'm curious. Why do you avoid mentioning that he's Welsh-born in your assessment?  Do you think that's not relevant to your argument?  

No one disagrees that there should be more neutral referees.    The unions need to develop more of them in Scotland, Italy and Wales.  I'd be quite happy if there were no Irish refs used in the championship except for Irish derbies if they were essential.

Apparently you can only be biased based on who pays your wages

Pot Hale wrote:I'm curious. Why do you avoid mentioning that he's Welsh-born in your assessment? Do you think that's not relevant to your argument?

Pot, you can say what you like about this, and if we can ignore marty's mud slinging, I have always said on here I could not give two hoots what the nationality of the refs are, and I am genuine when I say this, honestly I do not care.

What I care is the conflict of interest that is created, when said refs, players, coaches and EVERYTHING else all come under one employer. It creates a scenario where bias can even be suggested. I have spoken about this endless times on here, god knows you are aware because you and I have debated this until the cows come home.

This does not help, when these scenarios are compounded by the performance of both referee and TMO. This is what we saw on Friday night, and it has happened too many times now for people on here to just dismiss it as people like myself being tin hatted idiots.

The disturbing thing for me is, that both the ref and TMO deliberated over the incidents on Friday, so they made a calculated decision between them on what they thought was correct, which many on here have questioned. I am also being told that I cannot compare all the incidents that happened because they were different circumstances, but decisions were still made never the less and they favoured one side, the same side that employs the officials. It's something that I and many other observe, but when we bring it up we are ridiculed for it on here.

So make of that what you will.

LD, please explain where the conflict is

By the way, you're making accusations of bias not a conflict of interest

Please learn the difference

No I am not, it is called a conflict of interest. We have been debating this season on season, yet you will argue until the cows come home that there is nothing to debate.

The Pro 14 are trying to bring in Neutral refs but it shouldn't be as big a deal as made out, would there be neutral refs if the regions joined the Aviva, or would they all be RFU assigned refs? When Swansea and Cardiff were in the premier league was there an issue with English refs (different sport, but has more money and professionalism)?

If you think about it, its going to be a difficult task to get the pool of refs to have neutral ones at every game, for that to happen since there are twice as many Irish and Welsh teams the other Unions would have to provide twice as many refs, (roughly I'm not going to work out exact figures), basically SRU, FIR and SARU need to supply more refs than WRU/IRFU, considering that Rugby isn't as popular in FIR/SRU it makes it more difficult to get the numbers at the required level.

What your asking is that countries that cannot support more than 2 teams, supply more refs of the standard required than teams that can supply 4 teams. How can countries with smaller referee resources develop twice as many refs, as countries with better resources? This is the task that Greg Garner faces and it will take time.

The SARU will help in this regard, but then there are higher costs involved, and can they really help as they need refs for Super Rugby and Currie cup as well? Hopefully when Currie cup is over the SARU can add more to the panel untill Super Rugby starts.

For what it's worth, I think this has less to do with nationality and more to do with the quality, or perceived quality, of the respective sides. I'm sure referees don't mean to do it, but when Team A, that wins more games than it loses, plays Team B, than loses more games than it wins, Team A tends to get, for want of a better term, the rub of the green. This applies all the more when Team A is playing at home. You can see this across all sports, not just rugby, and while it's not particularly fair, it's something that's always going to happen (until robots referee games). That's just the way it is, as the song goes.

Dowlais, if, as you say in your original post, 'nothing changes', then why are you so surprised and angry? You should be a bit more realistic. 'God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change', etc.

Why should their nationality come into it though ?

Why can't we have a group of referees employed by the Pro14 ?

They all get together at certain times throughout the season, and all communicate with each other, only then will we have all refs signing from the same hymn sheet.

Otherwise we will keep on having the scenario as the title of this thread suggests.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, if, as you say in your original post, 'nothing changes', then why are you so surprised and angry? You should be a bit more realistic. 'God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change', etc.

But this is something that we can change, and pretty easily in my opinion. At the moment we have 5 different unions sending out directives to referees for 1 league. Why can't the league be in charge of the referees ?

LordDowlais wrote:No I am not, it is called a conflict of interest. We have been debating this season on season, yet you will argue until the cows come home that there is nothing to debate.

You have as good as said Irish officiald ruled in favour of an Irish team because they are Irish that's bias not a conflict

You have yet to explain where a conflict arises

Pretty simple. His point is that if you're paid by the same organisation as someone you're overseeing you can't be fair or professional.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:No I am not, it is called a conflict of interest. We have been debating this season on season, yet you will argue until the cows come home that there is nothing to debate.

You have as good as said Irish officiald ruled in favour of an Irish team because they are Irish that's bias not a conflict

You have yet to explain where a conflict arises

Oh FFS. It's not enough that you have embarrassed yourself enough on this thread, you now have to nit pick about this. OK.

The way I see it is, that there is a conflict of interest as the referees are supposed to be impartial to the people they are reffing even though they are on the same payroll as them, that is where I see the conflict. That is why I would rather the Pro14 employ the refs, not the unions.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:No I am not, it is called a conflict of interest. We have been debating this season on season, yet you will argue until the cows come home that there is nothing to debate.

You have as good as said Irish officiald ruled in favour of an Irish team because they are Irish that's bias not a conflict

You have yet to explain where a conflict arises

Oh FFS. It's not enough that you have embarrassed yourself enough on this thread, you now have to nit pick about this. OK.

The way I see it is, that there is a conflict of interest as the referees are supposed to be impartial to the people they are reffing even though they are on the same payroll as them, that is where I see the conflict. That is why I would rather the Pro14 employ the refs, not the unions.

And how is it beneficial for the ref if an Irish team wins?

So you would have no problem with a ref from Leinster reffing a Leinster game if the Pro14 paid him?

An Irish referee would still be Irish, Dowlais. You know that wouldn't make much of a difference to the accusations of bias.

I do not care where a person comes from.

Just out of interest, why can't a Leinster ref, referee Leinster ?

Are people being deliberately obtuse?

LD, I think part of your problem with convincing people of your argument is the title of your thread. You said in the above post that nationality has nothing to do with it, yet your topic tile reads:
IRISH ref, IRISH TMO, game in IRELAND, nothing changes.
Your OP is castigating the incidents of unfairness and bias of decision-making, and an incident about a Welsh player is described as the Leinster player milking a penalty.

Have you ever written about this topic without using IRISH or IRELAND in your commentary?

You could have written
Unions still employing refs in PRO14 matches
Or
Neutral refs still not being employed by PRO14

But you chose deliberately, again, to make this issue about nationality, and specifically about IRISH nationality.

So much so that you called a Welsh-born ref an Irish ref.

No 7&1/2 wrote: Are people being deliberately obtuse?

About what?

Asking about conflict of interest and how it could occur. Asking why someone from Leinster couldn't or shouldn't ref Leinster. You may disagree with the points raised in those incidents but I find it hard to believe hat people can't follow the simple points being raised Pot.

Pot Hale wrote:IRISH ref, IRISH TMO, game in IRELAND, nothing changes

Yes. Because guess what ? It was an Irish ref, an Irish TMO, and they both made decisions that favoured an Irish team in Ireland.

Why can I not point this out ?

Isa Nacewa was yellow carded, it should have been red, the ref and TMO decided otherwise.

Rob Kearney should have been penalised for a late shoulder tackle on Lee-Lo, nothing was given by both ref and TMO.

Navidi should have been penalised for obstructing Isa Nacewa, he was punished by both ref and TMO.

Notice a theme here ?

Also, anybody care to answer why a Leinster ref, cannot ref Leinster ?

If its a real question they can technically.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Asking about conflict of interest and how it could occur. Asking why someone from Leinster couldn't or shouldn't ref Leinster. You may disagree with the points raised in those incidents but I find it hard to believe hat people can't follow the simple points being raised Pot.

Maybe try following the thread then you will understand, some people don't seem to grasp the difference between bias and a conflict of interest. Hence the question, I was seeking clarity on some peoples understanding of it and yet it not forthcoming.

Just because two people are paid from the same pot does not equal a conflict, my department is audited by people paid for by my employer does a conflict exist there because we have the same benefactor?

The Leinster question is relevant because apparently being from the same nation only matters if you are paid from that nation

care to answer the question marty ?

Why don't Leinster refs, referee Leinster ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:IRISH ref, IRISH TMO, game in IRELAND, nothing changes

Yes. Because guess what ? It was an Irish ref, an Irish TMO, and they both made decisions that favoured an Irish team in Ireland.

Why can I not point this out ?

Isa Nacewa was yellow carded, it should have been red, the ref and TMO decided otherwise.

Rob Kearney should have been penalised for a late shoulder tackle on Lee-Lo, nothing was given by both ref and TMO.

Navidi should have been penalised for obstructing Isa Nacewa, he was punished by both ref and TMO.

Notice a theme here ?

Also, anybody care to answer why a Leinster ref, cannot ref Leinster ?

Precisely.   Your choice of language betrays your bias. And your choice of theme - nationality.

Andrew Brace is not an Irish ref.  He's a Welsh ref employed by the IRFU.  As in JP Doyle is an Irish ref employed by the English RFU.   Or Steve Walsh was a NZ ref employed by the Australian RU.  

Oh and Alain Rolland was an Irish ref employed by the IRFU despite the views of a number of certain fans who viewed his actions as biased towards France, despite him not being employed by the FFR.

In short, nationality does count in most people's eyes. Just not in yours, apparently. Yet you used the theme of nationality three times in your headline.[/quote]

It's not hard to follow marty. You obviously see his point and understand it. Instead of giving the example you did above, which I agree with, you're trying to suggest it just could not exist.

Generally because they'll support Leinster and be biased towards them but as I said some people don't understand the difference between bias and a conflict of interest

Anyone, anyone on here care to amuse me, and answer the question.

Why don't Leinster referees, ref Leinster in the Pro14 ?