Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

by **profitius** Tue 12 Sep 2017, 9:16 am

First topic message reminder :

Continued from this one. https://www.606v2.com/t63658-irish-provinces-news-gossip-thread-2016-17
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by geoff999rugby Thu 26 Oct 2017, 2:42 am

Close

by Pete330v2 Thu 26 Oct 2017, 3:59 am

geoff999rugby wrote:If the wingers are not Earls and Stockdale then form is obviously irrelevant
They have been the best two and by some distance

Who is 15 though - relying a hell of a lot on Rob Kearney being fit
If Zebo not considered and Payne will not be back - we are one injury from a problem
Carbery by default I assume

you know what Joe's like with form though Geoff. There'll be excuses about players who know the fine details and systems inside out whether they're on form or not. He'll look at Oxo's (I stole that nickname from t'other forum) amazing form and try and find the things he hasn't done so well. That being said, the fact he can play wing, fullback and centre may guarantee him his place whether he knows Joe's systems as well as McFaidin' or not. Earls is nailed on as a starter, seemples.

by Engine#4 Sat 28 Oct 2017, 5:54 am

If Joe picks purely on form then O'Mahony and O'Stander wouldn't start vs the Boks. The outcry would be far greater than if both start in a team with Rob Kearney at fullback.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 28 Oct 2017, 6:14 am

Engine#4 wrote:If Joe picks purely on form then O'Mahony and O'Stander wouldn't start vs the Boks. The outcry would be far greater than if both start in a team with Rob Kearney at fullback.

They have both been pretty dire. No idea what is going on with POM but he looks pretty lost. Giving away silly penalties, getting on the wrong side of the referee and having very little impact on the game.

Munster are in great need of a decent and stable coaching setup. Their backs collectively make about the same metres that the likes of Stockdale makes in one game. 10 man rugby without the pack or the 10 to do the job. No wonder Zebo is leaving.

by Engine#4 Sat 28 Oct 2017, 6:26 am

I agree the coaching situation seems to be hurting them at the minute. I should also add that I am not advocating Kearney starting vs South Africa or POM not. Just making the point that I don't think any coach will pick purely on form.

by The Great Aukster Sun 29 Oct 2017, 1:28 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Engine#4 wrote:If Joe picks purely on form then O'Mahony and O'Stander wouldn't start vs the Boks. The outcry would be far greater than if both start in a team with Rob Kearney at fullback.

They have both been pretty dire. No idea what is going on with POM but he looks pretty lost. Giving away silly penalties, getting on the wrong side of the referee and having very little impact on the game.

Munster are in great need of a decent and stable coaching setup. Their backs collectively make about the same metres that the likes of Stockdale makes in one game. 10 man rugby without the pack or the 10 to do the job. No wonder Zebo is leaving.

If you're wondering about POM - check out all those who were on the Lions tour. There's very few of them playing anything like they were last season.

by geoff999rugby Sun 29 Oct 2017, 3:14 am

If Joe picks on form it will be an all Leinster backrow

by geoff999rugby Sun 29 Oct 2017, 3:38 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
If you're wondering about POM - check out all those who were on the Lions tour. There's very few of them playing anything like they were last season.

On the whole I agree - Henderson is an exception.
In England Lawes, Williams come to mind

by **rodders** Mon 30 Oct 2017, 4:52 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Engine#4 wrote:If Joe picks purely on form then O'Mahony and O'Stander wouldn't start vs the Boks. The outcry would be far greater than if both start in a team with Rob Kearney at fullback.

They have both been pretty dire. No idea what is going on with POM but he looks pretty lost. Giving away silly penalties, getting on the wrong side of the referee and having very little impact on the game.

Munster are in great need of a decent and stable coaching setup. Their backs collectively make about the same metres that the likes of Stockdale makes in one game. 10 man rugby without the pack or the 10 to do the job. No wonder Zebo is leaving.

If you're wondering about POM - check out all those who were on the Lions tour. There's very few of them playing anything like they were last season.

Always the way post Lions tour. I fancy Scotland or France to win the 6N.

One good thing is we didn't have too many in the test side but hopefully Joe will use, what is a fairly easy looking set of AI fixtures to rest a few of the Lions for the 6N and Champions cup.

That said Sexton and O'Brien look in decent shape.

by geoff999rugby Mon 30 Oct 2017, 4:57 am

As do Itoje and George - so the quality of players on the Lions tour is a mixed bag.

Some but not all are playing badly.
In fact lets turn it around which Lions are currently under performing ?

by marty2086 Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:36 am

McGrath and Furlong for me aren't close to where they were towards the end of last season, are Webb or Biggar close to good form? Haskell looks like he's sulking over the whole experience still

There are some though who have been injured or suspended so not had a run of games so hard to get a sense of form or have other reasons why they may be out of form

by Pot Hale Thu 02 Nov 2017, 1:04 pm

Don’t know if this has been discussed previously in this topic but did anyone notice the comment in one of the papers today about B&I Cup in its final season? IRFU may look at bringing back an inter pro series for start of 18/19 season, and then allow academy players more time with their clubs. Could be an interesting boost to the AIL - would IRFU see value in investing more into the semi-pro game to create another development tier?

by LeinsterFan4life Fri 03 Nov 2017, 1:40 am

Pot Hale wrote:Don’t know if this has been discussed previously in this topic but did anyone notice the comment in one of the papers today about B&I Cup in its final season? IRFU may look at bringing back an inter pro series for start of 18/19 season, and then allow academy players more time with their clubs. Could be an interesting boost to the AIL - would IRFU see value in investing more into the semi-pro game to create another development tier?

I thought they were looking at joining the English clubs in the LV cup or whatever it's called now?

by Sin é Fri 10 Nov 2017, 2:05 am

How about this?

Ronan O'Gara 'being targeted for New Zealand move'

Friday, November 10, 2017 - 09:03 am

Canterbury Crusaders of New Zealand have reportedly targetted Ronan O'Gara for a move to super rugby next season.

The Irish Examiner is reporting that the former Munster and Ireland star will be assistant head coach to Scott Robertson in 2018.

According to sources, O'Gara's current club Racing 92 is "braced for the Munster man's departure" in the next couple of months.

The Super Rugby Champions are offering an initial two-year contract. The Christchurch-based Crusaders have won a record eight Super rugby titles and are regarded as the premier club team in the world game.

O'Gara, who has a column with the Irish Examiner has declined to comment on the matter.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/ronan-ogara-being-targeted-for-new-zealand-move-813540.html

by Artful_Dodger Fri 10 Nov 2017, 11:12 am

Conor Carey from Connacht to Bristol.

https://twitter.com/JohnEvely_BPost/status/927894034424745984?s=04

by Pot Hale Fri 24 Nov 2017, 4:09 pm

Jake Heenan has finally seen the writing on the wall and has announced that he's leaving Connacht at season end. Likely destination? Bristol to join Lam.

by Pot Hale Fri 24 Nov 2017, 5:10 pm

Given my penchant for statistics and pedantic facts, as a by-the-by, I did a recent count of all the players currently contracted to the four provinces in senior and academy squads - using the Wiki pages of the four clubs which seem to be fairly accurate.

There's 257 players in total.
207 of these were Irish-born - 81%

Of the 50 foreign-born, these break out into:
11 are qualified by Birth Parent with 6 capped - ENG 5,SA/FRA/CAN/NZ/SP/ISR - 1 each
6 are qualified by Birth Grandparent with 4 capped - NZ 3, SA/AUS/US - 1 each
9 are capped foreign players (NIE) - SA 4, NZ/Aus - 2 each, Fij 1
12 are uncapped and not residency qualified - NZ 7, SA 3, Aus 2
4 are uncapped and residency qualified - NZ & SA - 2 each
8 are capped and residency qualified - SA 4, NZ 3, NIG 1

Most of those with birth parents also moved to Ireland at a young age.

Country of birth breakdown is:
NZ 18
SA 15
ENG 5
AUS 5
NIG 1
FRA 1
SPA 1
FIJ 1
USA 1
CAN 1
ISR 1

by LeinsterFan4life Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:30 pm

The conveyor belt at Leinster looks to be showing no sign of slowing down. Deegan and Larmour were magnificent last night and Ross Byrne is really starting to put his stamp on the 10 jersey. I'm sure the other provinces are taking note.

Also some rumours that Doris (back row prospect in the Leinster academy) and Dooley are off to Connacht. Dooley might be a replacement for Buckley who is apparently being chased by a French club.

by geoff999rugby Sat 25 Nov 2017, 3:43 am

Don't blame Buckley - he should be a regular in the Irish squad

by **profitius** Sat 25 Nov 2017, 5:49 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The conveyor belt at Leinster looks to be showing no sign of slowing down. Deegan and Larmour were magnificent last night and Ross Byrne is really starting to put his stamp on the 10 jersey. I'm sure the other provinces are taking note.

Also some rumours that Doris (back row prospect in the Leinster academy) and Dooley are off to Connacht. Dooley might be a replacement for Buckley who is apparently being chased by a French club.

Its a nice position to be in. I'd imagine there'll be many teams chasing Doris. Larmour looks like a Hogg type player. He has serious speed but a brain also.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 25 Nov 2017, 5:54 am

Leinster are building an excellent spine in their backline for the post-Sexton era with Carbery, Ringrose and Larmour.

by carpet baboon Sat 25 Nov 2017, 5:55 am

Larmour where do you think he will settle 13 wing or fullback?

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 25 Nov 2017, 6:19 am

carpet baboon wrote:Larmour where do you think he will settle 13 wing or fullback?

Fullback. Won't get a chance at 13 (Ringrose, Henshaw, O'Loughlin) and fullback looks very suited for his style of play.

by carpet baboon Sat 25 Nov 2017, 6:26 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Larmour where do you think he will settle 13 wing or fullback?

Fullback. Won't get a chance at 13 (Ringrose, Henshaw, O'Loughlin) and fullback looks very suited for his style of play.

Only seen bits of him playing looks pacey, what's his kicking like?

by SecretFly Sat 25 Nov 2017, 4:18 pm

He doesn't need to kick. He plays rugby instead.... Run

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 27 Nov 2017, 5:39 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Leinster are building an excellent spine in their backline for the post-Sexton era with Carbery, Ringrose and Larmour.

The spine of the entire team seems in decent shape, Tracy-Porter-Ryan-Deegan-Luke-Carbery-Ringrose-Larmour. That's a solid young spine to build a team around.

The game on Friday night, I didn't think Leinster played particularly well. Not as well as the scoreline suggested.
Also the referee had some complete howlers. I'm a complete one-eyed supporter but even I knew plenty of his calls were dubious at best.

by SecretFly Mon 27 Nov 2017, 5:46 am

Not all the players mentioned will indeed make the grade...in continuing improvement in quality anyway. The law of averages for me probably gives two to three of them a decent chance of becoming household names. Even Larmour might fall away and be forgotten. I'm always cautious of long lists when talking about potential.

by Pot Hale Mon 27 Nov 2017, 6:43 am

SecretFly wrote:Not all the players mentioned will indeed make the grade...in continuing improvement in quality anyway. The law of averages for me probably gives two to three of them a decent chance of becoming household names. Even Larmour might fall away and be forgotten. I'm always cautious of long lists when talking about potential.

What??!!!! Are you trying to imply that all of Leinster's young tyros will not be strutting the world stage 20 months from now?

Absolute heresy.

by **rodders** Mon 27 Nov 2017, 7:34 am

I'm incredibly impressed with the talent coming through at Leinster.

Carbery won't be missed at all when he moves North.

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 27 Nov 2017, 8:12 am

rodders wrote:I'm incredibly impressed with the talent coming through at Leinster.

Carbery won't be missed at all when he moves North.

Potential test quality 10s are too valuable to stay buried in the depth chart at Leinster. For Ireland's sake a move north for one of the Leinster outhalves needs to happen.
As a Leinster fan I'd quite like to hold on to the depth.... country comes first though!

It would be curious. Cooney is waxed lyrical on these threads when he wasn't good enough to stake a prominent place at scrum half at Leinster and didn't manage to oust Marmion at Connacht. What would the reaction be to getting their hands on a Carbery?

by LeinsterFan4life Mon 27 Nov 2017, 8:29 am

Everybody thought Jack McGrath had to move when he first burst onto the scene. Then everyone thought Van Der Flier and Leavy had to move because of the depth in Leinster's backrow. The best place for Carberry is here at Leinster, can't see him leaving.

by **rodders** Mon 27 Nov 2017, 9:05 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote: What would the reaction be to getting their hands on a Carbery?

I'd be happy, he's better than Nelson anyways!

by The Great Aukster Mon 27 Nov 2017, 1:47 pm

As a 10, not so sure - Byrne is keeping carbs out of the fly half gig and he's slower than ROG was.

by SecretFly Tue 28 Nov 2017, 1:54 am

ROG wasn't slow, he was pernickety. Judging what blade of grass you want the ball to land on takes time and concentration.

I'll have nothing bad said about ROG! mad

That man gave us more push-over try opportunities than our general play ever seemed to deserve. The rest of them (including Sexton) don't seem to have the balls to try for those pin-prick distances.

by **rodders** Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:25 am

So it sounds like Peter O'Mahoney is off too.

Thoughts?

by SecretFly Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:45 am

rodders wrote:So it sounds like Peter O'Mahoney is off too.

Thoughts?

Well that will be brinkmanship and a half - the way all these negotiations seem to be going. Blame the agents, I suppose. Who blinks first?

POM knows that both Munster and indeed Ireland kinda need him, even though probably neither will now say that to him. But he was his bullish best at the weekend and anyone who says we can do without natural warriors like POM through 6N campaigns or the WC are only bluffing to get one of their own favourites in on the deal instead Wink

So POM knows he probably can hold out a bit and see does the offer improve. The IRFU, on their side, have a pretty big weapon of their own - that International shirt. I could be wrong but I think POM is driven by his loyalties - it's part of the fabric of his game. With Munster and Ireland, it's the shirt that drives him not the desire to look good for self-promotion. So that Ireland shirt would be a big thing for him to walk away from.... and the IRFU more than likely know it.

It'll be an interesting one. The gunfight between POM and the IRFU. They shouldn't shoot him in the back, and he shouldn't shoot himself in the foot.

by **rodders** Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:08 am

Well my opinion is this, the IRFU have made a right mess with Heaslip's central contract. Now we run the risk of loosing both O'Mahoney and Stander.

Personally I like POM as a leader but think he is overrated as a player as was shown on the Lions. He doesn't have the pace to cope when the game is played quick, although is world class when the game is slow.

The IRFU would do well and call his bluff in a position we are very well covered.

That being said, it looks like the floodgates are starting to open and we may need to accept we can't retain the best players at the provinces any longer.

It seems a particular issue at Munster for what ever reason, maybe Dublin and Belfast are nicer places to live than Cork and Limerick?

It will be interesting to see who is next to jump ship but for double the wages who can blame players for having their heads turned.

by marty2086 Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:09 am

Isn't his agent the same one as Heaslip and SOB?

by **rodders** Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:19 am

marty2086 wrote:Isn't his agent the same one as Heaslip and SOB?

If so I might hire him myself.

by SecretFly Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:22 am

I'd go to war with POM.... and I'd want to be in his unit. We might be slow getting up that hill and taking it, but I think more of us would be alive getting there than some of the flash harry's rushing in on incremental ambushes all the way up that hill Wink

The Lions, The Lions, the King of all Birds it seems. But nope. I doubt it for POM.

IRFU has to respect players that have paid their dues with blood and muck in this game. Stop offering belittling offers to players they know can be offered much more elsewhere. And then, when they're honest that they've genuinely reached a plateau offer, (one they can genuinely afford) the player's agents should f**k off, and crawl under the stone they usually live under. Wink

It's the knowing bluff/card game feel to negotiations that creates the mistrust with everyone.... and the percentage greed of those agents lurking in the background... the Wormtongues.

by marty2086 Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:27 am

rodders wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Isn't his agent the same one as Heaslip and SOB?

If so I might hire him myself.

It's actually not but apparently Ryan Constable is involved in helping his agent, maybe Bryn will have a word with his mate Fingers Crossed

by LeinsterFan4life Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:41 am

rodders wrote:Well my opinion is this, the IRFU have made a right mess with Heaslip's central contract. Now we run the risk of loosing both O'Mahoney and Stander.

Personally I like POM as a leader but think he is overrated as a player as was shown on the Lions. He doesn't have the pace to cope when the game is played quick, although is world class when the game is slow.

The IRFU would do well and call his bluff in a position we are very well covered.

That being said, it looks like the floodgates are starting to open and we may need to accept we can't retain the best players at the provinces any longer.

It seems a particular issue at Munster for what ever reason, maybe Dublin and Belfast are nicer places to live than Cork and Limerick?

It will be interesting to see who is next to jump ship but for double the wages who can blame players for having their heads turned.

The floodgates have been apparently opening for the last 6 years. The same stories come out every year before contract renewals, I would be shocked if POM left Munster.

by Sin é Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:56 am

POM is with Horizon Sports better known for representing golfers (the people Rory McEvoy used be with and who later sued him and won a big payout). POM was their first rugby client (think Sexton is with them now as well). The connection is that POM's partner's father's legal practice (his partner is also a solicitor working in that company) are Horizon's legal advisors and won the case against Rory McIlroy. Other interesting bit is that she has fluent French has some sort of a French legal qualification and has already spent some time working in France. That all points to them going to France. Worth bearing in mind that both Zebo & POM are still living in Cork, have young families and spending a couple of nights a week in Limerick or travelling up and down every day. That isn't a great lifestyle!

I read that one club's offer is double what the IRFU's central contract is. So, with a young family, Anthony Foley's early death, the possibility of a career ending injury, I'd imagine a lot of players with young families find it hard not to try and do everything they can to secure the future of their families.

by SecretFly Tue 28 Nov 2017, 4:14 am

Yes Sin, but twice the price and twice the flogging can get you that career ending injury quicker. So what's the point in one year at a high price and being flogged by your club to an early career ending injury?

Now that's the doomsday scenario of course but it can happen. So POM needs to think seriously. He ain't exactly on sleeping-rough wages as it is.

by carpet baboon Tue 28 Nov 2017, 4:50 am

Well fly one reason could be that any insurance payout for career ending injury would surely be linked to what he is currently payed (correct me if I'm wrong insurance ain't my thing). So if the worst did happen, he would be better off.
Not saying it's a good reason, but with young kids myself it would be one of my considerations

by SecretFly Tue 28 Nov 2017, 4:58 am

carpet baboon wrote:Well fly one reason could be that any insurance payout for career ending injury would surely be linked to what he is currently payed (correct me if I'm wrong insurance ain't my thing). So if the worst did happen, he would be better off.
Not saying it's a good reason, but with young kids myself it would be one of my considerations

Well there you see, just like you, I'm not so sure about all that. I obviously Know that insurance is in there somewhere in a contract, but long term assurances from some of these hard-bitten Rugby sides in France...stiffly in a contract? Well, I don't know. But all I'm saying is that has always been the balance of the argument about going or staying. In Ireland we tend not to run our players into the ground and indeed some of them are only 'maturing' at ages where other player from other Nations would be veterans and on the way downward towards the knackers yard.
So longevity can increase your overall earning potential favourably when compared to a short well paid supernova kind of career.

by carpet baboon Tue 28 Nov 2017, 5:11 am

SecretFly wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Well fly one reason could be that any insurance payout for career ending injury would surely be linked to what he is currently payed (correct me if I'm wrong insurance ain't my thing). So if the worst did happen, he would be better off.
Not saying it's a good reason, but with young kids myself it would be one of my considerations

Well there you see, just like you, I'm not so sure about all that. I obviously Know that insurance is in there somewhere in a contract, but long term assurances from some of these hard-bitten Rugby sides in France...stiffly in a contract? Well, I don't know. But all I'm saying is that has always been the balance of the argument about going or staying. In Ireland we tend not to run our players into the ground and indeed some of them are only 'maturing' at ages where other player from other Nations would be veterans and on the way downward towards the knackers yard.
So longevity can increase your overall earning potential favourably when compared to a short well paid supernova kind of career.

All true. But I suppose only POM knows the answer

by **rodders** Tue 28 Nov 2017, 5:40 am

Sin é wrote:POM is with Horizon Sports better known for representing golfers (the people Rory McEvoy used be with and who later sued him and won a big payout). POM was their first rugby client (think Sexton is with them now as well). The connection is that POM's partner's father's legal practice (his partner is also a solicitor working in that company) are Horizon's legal advisors and won the case against Rory McIlroy. Other interesting bit is that she has fluent French has some sort of a French legal qualification and has already spent some time working in France. That all points to them going to France. Worth bearing in mind that both Zebo & POM are still living in Cork, have young families and spending a couple of nights a week in Limerick or travelling up and down every day. That isn't a great lifestyle!

I read that one club's offer is double what the IRFU's central contract is. So, with a young family, Anthony Foley's early death, the possibility of a career ending injury, I'd imagine a lot of players with young families find it hard not to try and do everything they can to secure the future of their families.

Sin sounds like Earls is off to Quins as well, any truth in this??

Sounds like Erasmus leaving has started an exodus at Munster.

by The Great Aukster Tue 28 Nov 2017, 5:55 am

SecretFly wrote:Yes Sin, but twice the price and twice the flogging can get you that career ending injury quicker. So what's the point in one year at a high price and being flogged by your club to an early career ending injury?

Now that's the doomsday scenario of course but it can happen. So POM needs to think seriously. He ain't exactly on sleeping-rough wages as it is.

If he got a career-ending injury in France, Bryn would still sign him at Ulster on a three year contract...

by SecretFly Tue 28 Nov 2017, 5:57 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Yes Sin, but twice the price and twice the flogging can get you that career ending injury quicker. So what's the point in one year at a high price and being flogged by your club to an early career ending injury?

Now that's the doomsday scenario of course but it can happen. So POM needs to think seriously. He ain't exactly on sleeping-rough wages as it is.

If he got a career-ending injury in France, Bryn would still sign him at Ulster on a three year contract...

If you read that quickly you think it's quite a good deal! Good one, Aukster.

Will you be my agent?

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