England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

So is that 3 years 7.5 would he not fall under the new 5 year requirement now though?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So is that 3 years 7.5 would he not fall under the new 5 year requirement now though?

Don't think that's in force for a couple more years.

Ah sorry I thought it was coming in to force this summer.

Yeah its from 31 December 2020

Ie anyone who completes their 3 year residency before that date is fine, after that its 5 years

James Lowe is probably the biggest name who has signed in time for the 3 year rule

Scottrf wrote:

mid_gen wrote:We know what our first and mostly second choice XV looks like now....outside that players are only going to get a look-in through injury (which is going to be a fair few players).

You're probably right but I think it's a mistake in certain areas. You need to constantly evolve, we can't expect to be the same team from 2016-2019 and for teams not to figure us out. And picking players based solely on team fit and with little emphasis on form may eventually catch up to us. It's a hard balance but there are still 20 odd caps to be won before the WC.

Agreed, while we have a core team changes should still occur when necessary. Such as with Haskell already, likewise I can see Kruis losing his starting shirt and dropping out of the side. Hartley is another who should be on the way out, it worries me that Eddie has said he's the captain for the RWC, but then that could mean little knowing EJ.

Kruis is up there with the best locks in the world and is only 27. He's struggling for a form a little but will get there....don't write him off yet.

Yeah i agree Sgt, Kruis is a quality player, he just seems shattered and out of form. If he can get some form back he's a genuinely class operator.

I see the England U20 squad has been announced. Some interesting names...including Ben Curry.

Sad not to see a single falcon in there like Adam Radwan, but it does look a strong squad

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/2017-2018/england-u20-elite-player-squad-announced/

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see the England U20 squad has been announced. Some interesting names...including Ben Curry.

Sad not to see a single falcon in there like Adam Radwan, but it does look a strong squad

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/2017-2018/england-u20-elite-player-squad-announced/

Radwan (30/12/97) is a couple of days too old. Need to be born in 98 or later to be eligible this year.

Lots of firepower in that back row with Curry, Earl, Moore and Willis. Should be a strength again this year.

Ah I thought he would have made it MW . Aside from him though we don't have any youngsters worthy.

But yes that back row should be very strong.

Another interesting England selection article in yesterdays guardian with 400 plus comments. Lots of Cipriani chat.
The thought that crosses my mind is that what an interesting contrast there is between two excellent flyhalfs Cips and Faz and as fans how lucky we are to have ringside seats. Sunday will be fascinating on various levels but half will top of my list.

Bit pointless for an England chat though. Ford Farrell smith even someone like malins are the current and future now. Cipriani for all his talent messed up with his off field attitude pr etc and the unfortunate injury.

Hello England chaps. Quick question.
If faz and ford both picked up knocks would you rather cips or one of the young lads stepped up?

If it's against Ireland probably Cipriani, but in the easy games like Italy, Wales and France I wouldn't mind seeing Smith.

Smith looks incredibly promising but has yet to really take a beating or Frak up. Probably best to see how he goes before that, don't want to set him back by rushing him in.

At the same time I'd love to see him v Italy

Think I'd take Slade over Cips at 10 just because he's been in and around the squad a lot more

I think both Eddie and John Kingston are very clear that they need to handle Smith carefully both in terms of bringing him through and the hype around him (Eddie's comment on his Big Game performance was "I could have scored some of those tries") - but so far he's not really put a foot wrong even in games where Quins have played badly.

He reminds me a lot of Ford at the same age - both in terms of strengths and development points. Ford had a better kicking game at that age - especially putting chaseable high balls into space, but I think Smith's passing is fractionally better. Both had to develop their defensive skills - though Smith is improving (he landed two textbook tackles on much bigger players in the Big Game, and forced a turnover from one of them). What really excites me is his ability to get a defence working one way and then change direction instantaneously.

There's no point in rushing him - we don't want him to burn out physically, and we don't want him dropped into international rugby before he's ready. I don't think he should be involved in the 6N, but the England v Japan game in the Autumn looks tailor made...

Poorfour wrote:

There's no point in rushing him - we don't want him to burn out physically, and we don't want him dropped into international rugby before he's ready. I don't think he should be involved in the 6N, but the England v Japan game in the Autumn looks tailor made...

Really like the look of this lad. The thing that has impressed me most is something which Owen Farrell has done really well over the last couple of years (although he doesn't get the credit for it that he might). That thing is how well he continually takes it to the line and is willing to make late decisions, even if it means wearing one. Tremendously brave. It's also something Henry Slade did really well when he came on the scene (although it's slightly different now he spends most of his time in the centres).

The age thing I find interesting. The accepted wisdom is a player needs time, and to throw him in too early will mean he doesn't realise his potential. However, I'm sure there are plenty of players who didn't get capped as a teenager that still don't go on to realise their potential, so is international really bad for a players development, or is that just a cliche?

I'm sure there's more but Wilkinson and Giteau were both capped as teenagers. Ioane only turned 20 in march this year. Tom Curry was 18 and has looked tremendous in an England shirt. Gorgodze started at 19. Parisse when he was 18. George North 18. Smith will be 19 during the 6 nations, and he does look very tidy. I'd be tempted to give him a go in the Autumn at the very least. I get it that you can look at Smith and think well he's just not big enough, but he's the same height as George Ford and only 2kg lighter.

cascough wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

There's no point in rushing him - we don't want him to burn out physically, and we don't want him dropped into international rugby before he's ready. I don't think he should be involved in the 6N, but the England v Japan game in the Autumn looks tailor made...

Really like the look of this lad. The thing that has impressed me most is something which Owen Farrell has done really well over the last couple of years (although he doesn't get the credit for it that he might). That thing is how well he continually takes it to the line and is willing to make late decisions, even if it means wearing one. Tremendously brave. It's also something Henry Slade did really well when he came on the scene (although it's slightly different now he spends most of his time in the centres).

The age thing I find interesting. The accepted wisdom is a player needs time, and to throw him in too early will mean he doesn't realise his potential. However, I'm sure there are plenty of players who didn't get capped as a teenager that still don't go on to realise their potential, so is international really bad for a players development, or is that just a cliche?

I'm sure there's more but Wilkinson and Giteau were both capped as teenagers. Ioane only turned 20 in march this year. Tom Curry was 18 and has looked tremendous in an England shirt. Gorgodze started at 19. Parisse when he was 18. George North 18. Smith will be 19 during the 6 nations, and he does look very tidy. I'd be tempted to give him a go in the Autumn at the very least. I get it that you can look at Smith and think well he's just not big enough, but he's the same height as George Ford and only 2kg lighter.

With introducing young players to internationals there can not be a hard and fast rule. It is a fact of life that different players mature at different ages and it is just no good to expect every player to be an Itoje for example. What I suspect is that players introduced too young tend to hit injury problems early on in their careers too - although again there will not be fixed rule for every player.

Every player is different. Smith looks to me like he still has a bit of bulking out to do. He's skillful and brave but his coaches will know whether he's developed enough for the additional intensity of international rugby. Two kilos is quite a lot of muscle when you consider their sizes

Wilkinson was a freak - and still lost 4 years to injuries that had their roots in his teenage years. Manu has a similar story. Mat Tait was thrown in a bit too early and never really achieved his potential.

Smith has played 16 games so far this season, which is a huge amount for an 18 year old. We also don't want him to get hammered in an early game and lose his confidence. My guess is that Eddie is pushing him quite hard in training and trying to present him with challenges above and beyond what he might face on the pitch, and will pick him when he handles them consistently.

I would also hope he's getting coaching from some point of the players. He's got Nick Evans at Quins, and presumably Ford and Farrell to learn from, but it would be interesting to know who else is helping him.

You see my point though. I've speculated that the can't be thrown in too early is a bit of a cliche and there has been lots of opinion and conjecture offered in response. It seems to me to be very much a finger in the air thing whichever camp you're in.

Poorfour I think you have made a good point though about how many games he has played. 16 and counting is a lot. But if we were to try him out next autumn, that's at the start of the season so he'd be relatively fresh.

I see Sam Jones is back in training at Wasps. Remember him? He's the player who was paired against Maro Itoje, doing judo in an England training camp. He collected a horrendous leg and ankle injury which put him out of rugby for 14 months.

Hatley as England Scrum coach is certainly giving his protege's at Bath some opportunities with the training squads with Catt, Dunn, Thomas and now Obano getting a look in.
The one missing is Nick Auterac who is easily one of the strongest LH's in the AP but appears on the way out at Bath with the arrival of an Argentinian breaking up the all english prop contingent at Bath. Perhaps his lack of high profile loose play has counted against him both at Bath and England.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Hatley as England Scrum coach is certainly giving his protege's at Bath some opportunities with the training squads with Catt, Dunn, Thomas and now Obano getting a look in.
The one missing is Nick Auterac who is easily one of the strongest LH's in the AP but appears on the way out at Bath with the arrival of an Argentinian breaking up the all english prop contingent at Bath. Perhaps his lack of high profile loose play has counted against him both at Bath and England.

I get the feeling being a sicknote has meant that he's lost a lot of ground on his rivals. Still, at prop they have more time than in most positions and he could in theory come good.

Talking of promising props who have all but disappeared what happened to Paul Hill?

He plays for Saints the team that currently regresses rather than progresses promising youngsters....

Marler has just got himself sent off against Sale with an ugly shoulder to the head in a ruck which is more than likely going to end up with a ban...and probably a lengthy one with his record.

Who'll come in for Marler then? Can't see him making the 6Ns unless he's very lucky.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit pointless for an England chat though. Ford Farrell smith even someone like malins are the current and future now. Cipriani for all his talent messed up with his off field attitude pr etc and the unfortunate injury.

Why is this pointless?

Surely it will be instructive.

Broaden your perspective.

Presumably obano?

Not sure how it will be instructive king as you haven't mentioned anything on jones changing his mind and why he would suddenly turn to someone he has overlooked consistently while looking on the while towards youth. If there s a huge injury list he may eventually look at cipriani.

yappysnap wrote:Who'll come in for Marler then? Can't see him making the 6Ns unless he's very lucky.

Worst part is he was having a great game up to that point, carrying like a beast, best I'd seen him in a while.

Mako to start - the options will be who to replace him for 30 mins in the 2nd half

So, with injuries to Ellis Genge (ruled out for a "couple" of months on 6th December) and Matt Mullan (3 months announce on 30th October) and suspension due for Joe Marler it looks like Jones will have to be dipping into the unteted for Mako's back-up. Beno Obano was named in the Brighton Party for last week - while this was perhaps initially just a chance for EJ to see him at close quarters he is now in prime position to be capped next month. Should this happen he would actually have more first team experience with Bath than either Mako or Genge had with Sarries and Tigers. However it is still a risk - but what are the other options?

Nathan Catt was in the 6Ns squad last year, but has his own injury worries which have in part allowed Obano's run in the Bath team.
A few years ago Alex Waller may have been on the radar, but his star has waned and he too is currently injured.
Alec Hepburn has intermittently sparkled and may just be a contender.

I have to say I am struggling to come up with alternatives.

It's a worry tbh. Vunipola has been on the end of a couple of pastings at the scrum.over the last couple of months. Normally you would have at least had Marler to come on and shore things up; obano has looked good in the scrum but it's a concern when you have the quality of France and Ireland.

You could always look at the aging warrior Bobby Vickers

We need somebody who can scrum GF!

I don't think LH is a major worry. Mako is top draw and you'd imagine we'd have one of the other options back to go to the bench. Others mentioned would certainly do a job (Obano, Hepburn) and there's also McIntyre who also looks handy.

In the loose he is. He's generally an ok scrummagers with an occasional off day.

What in the world was Marler thinking? We're less than a month out from the 6 Nations and he does something like that? If he is not careful he is going be usurped by the younger props that are kicking around. It is a bit of a worry but it no longer affects England quite so badly when one of the premier props get injured, lets face it we don't gave to rely on Tim Payne anymore!

Thought McIntyre was American.

propdavid_london wrote:Thought McIntyre was American.

Why? lol

Only Yank prop I can think of in the AP is Titi Lamositele at Sarries.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see the England U20 squad has been announced. Some interesting names...including Ben Curry.

Sad not to see a single falcon in there like Adam Radwan, but it does look a strong squad

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/2017-2018/england-u20-elite-player-squad-announced/

No Umaga! Is he too old now?

propdavid_london wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see the England U20 squad has been announced. Some interesting names...including Ben Curry.

Sad not to see a single falcon in there like Adam Radwan, but it does look a strong squad

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/2017-2018/england-u20-elite-player-squad-announced/

No Umaga!  Is he too old now?

Umaga is still in this age group.

Injured or just not selected then I guess.

How old is Guy Armitage? I was impressed with him when he came on early for Wasps over the weekend.

propdavid_london wrote:How old is Guy Armitage?  I was impressed with him when he came on early for Wasps over the weekend.

26...

Cumbrian wrote:What in the world was Marler thinking?  We're less than a month out from the 6 Nations and he does something like that?  If he is not careful he is going be usurped by the younger props that are kicking around.  It is a bit of a worry but it no longer affects England quite so badly when one of the premier props get injured, lets face it we don't gave to rely on Tim Payne anymore!

Falcons S&C coach at the moment.

I do like Marler as a player...I think he's our best loosehead by some distance. He sacrificed his early career carrying to become a strong LH in the scrum and he's an animal defending the fringes and rucks etc.

He does have that habit of losing his head now and again and its so frustrating. I hope this one doesn't mean he misses the 6n but theres a very good chance it will.

We don't normally appear to play the system with bans ie players coming back into contention.just in time for internationals hartley being the only exception in recent memory. Even then he has been harshly treated for bans.over the years. I would be very surprised should Marler be available at te start of the tournament but u have to admit I haven't looked up the sanctions for the offence so this is based on gut feeling and nothing more.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We don't normally appear to play the system with bans ie players coming back into contention.just in time for internationals hartley being the only exception in recent memory. Even then he has been harshly treated for bans.over the years.  I would be very surprised should Marler be available at te start of the tournament but u have to admit I haven't looked up the sanctions for the offence so this is based on gut feeling and nothing more.

The big issue is that it's coming not that long after his last real infringement, and as you say he's been treated harshly in the past. That said, from what I have seen of the incident it was a deserved red but there seems to be some doubt over whether the contact wast with the shoulder or the upper arm. If the latter, I can see him being available for most of the tournament; if the former, it could be a longer ban,

Brookes only got 2 weeks for similar, as a low end incident. This appeared a bit more deliberate. It may not be too extreme a ban though.

Mid range 4 weeks.

EDIT: Thinking about it, have probably underestimated it. It was retaliatory which could give an extended ban and the other player wasn't really involved in the ruck anymore. Also as he was turning wasn't in a position to defend himself.

Scottrf wrote:Brookes only got 2 weeks for similar, as a low end incident. This appeared a bit more deliberate. It may not be too extreme a ban though.

Mid range 4 weeks.

EDIT: Thinking about it, have probably underestimated it. It was retaliatory which could give an extended ban and the other player wasn't really involved in the ruck anymore. Also as he was turning wasn't in a position to defend himself.

Another data point: Sekope Kepu got a three week ban when he did much the same against Scotland. Things have moved quite quickly on this kind of offence in the space of less than twelve months. Mako Vunipola wasn't banned for his should charge to Barrett during the second Lions test. I think he just saw yellow for 10 minutes.

Scottrf wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:How old is Guy Armitage?  I was impressed with him when he came on early for Wasps over the weekend.

26...

Looks a lot younger then!