Brexit

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Galted wrote:It will stop foreigners praying in our mosques.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 10 Jul 2018, 7:26 pm

I don't know what happens next..

But if you look at GE17 voting priority.

Brexit is a bigger issue for Tory voters than Labour voters..

I wouldn't want to guess who wins the next GE

by Luke Tue 10 Jul 2018, 9:28 pm

No one knows what's happening next. And the tragic thing about it is it taken 2 years to get to a position of nothing with no idea what's going on or happen, when we should at least have had a plan 6 months after the vote.
There has been far too much grandstanding and self interests by mps dominating what is arguably the most important moment of our history.

As for the next GE, I expect it to be a hung parliament after the lowest ever turnout.
As this has shown up most mp's for what they are. Self serving with no morals.

And what makes this worse, is we then expect this lot to negotiate deals that will help serve us, and make us better with other countries? Not a chance.

by BamBam Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:56 am

Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:'Gammons'. A term now derided by gammons, in a manner which makes the rest of us laugh.

It's an insult directed at white, middle-aged, middle-class individuals.

No, its an insult directed at a state of being - not all white, middle-aged, middle-class individuals are gammons, but a large majority of gammons are white and middle ages

They could easily stop being gammons if they didn't regurgitate the bilge they toss themselves off to from the Daily Mail every morning

by lostinwales Wed 11 Jul 2018, 6:13 pm

Luke wrote:No one knows what's happening next. And the tragic thing about it is it taken 2 years to get to a position of nothing with no idea what's going on or happen, when we should at least have had a plan 6 months after the vote.
There has been far too much grandstanding and self interests by mps dominating what is arguably the most important moment of our history.

As for the next GE, I expect it to be a hung parliament after the lowest ever turnout.
As this has shown up most mp's for what they are. Self serving with no morals.

And what makes this worse, is we then expect this lot to negotiate deals that will help serve us, and make us better with other countries? Not a chance.

I agree, though not so sure about voter turnout (other than exasperation at not having any party that they feel represent their interests). I suspect that the Cons won't be able to form a government even with the help of their extremist friends in NI, and that Labour would need a lot of parties to join in to form a government. I don't get the feeling that Corbyn would want to listen to other parties, and would have no hope at keeping such a coalition together. Stormy days (years) ahead

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 Jul 2018, 12:11 pm

Oh dear she is giving into the Brexiteers already...

Concessions on the CU coming up..

Time for her to go...Wasting all our time and getting nothing done..

by lostinwales Mon 16 Jul 2018, 12:24 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Oh dear she is giving into the Brexiteers already...

Concessions on the CU coming up..

Time for her to go...Wasting all our time and getting nothing done..

But but - there is the magic money tree and now she is shaking it in the direction of Aerospace all will be well.

As if...

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 Jul 2018, 1:21 pm

Still don't know where the 20 billion for the NHS is coming from ??

The last 13 months has been basically working out how she can put off tough decisions till later on so she can stay Leader longer without doing anything.

Not the time for a passenger..

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 17 Jul 2018, 9:13 am

Alternatively, every time she does, or tries to do, anything, some prize pr!ck in her own party pulls the rug out from under her.

I'm not a fan, but Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc etc are scum. The whole Brexit débacle is an internal Tory argument and they're screwing up an entire nation's livelihood with their childish wrangling.

by Luke Tue 17 Jul 2018, 3:18 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Alternatively, every time she does, or tries to do, anything, some prize pr!ck in her own party pulls the rug out from under her.

I'm not a fan, but Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc etc are scum. The whole Brexit débacle is an internal Tory argument and they're screwing up an entire nation's livelihood with their childish wrangling.

Agree with this.

What this 2 years has shown us is that mps will do anything to get attention/self interest/survival. And who cares what happens in the crossfire.

by Duty281 Tue 17 Jul 2018, 4:42 pm

BamBam wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:'Gammons'. A term now derided by gammons, in a manner which makes the rest of us laugh.

It's an insult directed at white, middle-aged, middle-class individuals.

No, its an insult directed at a state of being - not all white, middle-aged, middle-class individuals are gammons, but a large majority of gammons are white and middle ages

They could easily stop being gammons if they didn't regurgitate the bilge they toss themselves off to from the Daily Mail every morning

Excellent misunderstood. A point for effort.

by pauline Tue 17 Jul 2018, 4:52 pm

I want it hard and now

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 17 Jul 2018, 5:13 pm

pauline wrote:I want it hard and now

Fair enough, but what's your view on Brexit?

by pauline Tue 17 Jul 2018, 10:50 pm

I want hard brexit

by lostinwales Wed 18 Jul 2018, 12:40 pm

pauline wrote:I want hard brexit

Why?

And if you think WTO will work out well for us, I don't have the link to hand but there is a great article on this actually on the leave EU website. The TL:DR from that is that to drop out to WTO is monumentally stupid. Tariffs are one thing, standards are something else entirely and will not be able to be fixed overnight.

And don't forget how EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens abroad will also be fecked over big time by any kind of hard brexit.

by SecretFly Wed 18 Jul 2018, 1:07 pm

Okay, the UK can stay in the EU then....but as full members not as casual laid-back, Thatcherite-rejectionist, 'we'll-take-the-good-bits-and-leave-the-rest-to-the-other-eejits' participants like was the case up until now.

So yes, re-join the pseudo-Democratic European Domineering Monolith that wants to rule the world (insert obligatory evil laugh)...but first you have to accept everything.... including the Euro!

So down with the Queen's Pound and welcome back to the European Version of China. The EVC.

by **Galted** Wed 18 Jul 2018, 1:19 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
pauline wrote:I want it hard and now

Fair enough, but what's your view on Brexit?

out loud

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 18 Jul 2018, 9:12 pm

SecretFly wrote:Okay, the UK can stay in the EU then....but as full members not as casual laid-back, Thatcherite-rejectionist, 'we'll-take-the-good-bits-and-leave-the-rest-to-the-other-eejits' participants like was the case up until now.

So yes, re-join the pseudo-Democratic European Domineering Monolith that wants to rule the world (insert obligatory evil laugh)...but first you have to accept everything.... including the Euro!

So down with the Queen's Pound and welcome back to the European Version of China. The EVC.

I'd agree with this. In 100%, or not at all. Engage and influence from part of the EU; rather than as before i.e. not engage properly and whine from the sidelines.

by catchweight Wed 18 Jul 2018, 10:47 pm

I think its time for May to go. It was obvious before the referendum that leaving the EU and negotitation a new arrangement was an impossibility within the timeframe allocated. Its even clearer now. Virtually no meaningful progress has been made.

The Chequers arrangement is nothing more than a damage limitation excercise almost certainly leaving us in worse position than we started. Almost nobody is happy with the compromise. It is leaving an arrangement at great cost to sign up to a worse arrangement. Sheer madness.

Its time for the Leavers to take ownership of this. A hard Brexit looks not just likely, but the only practical way of doing this within the time frame given. The Leavers campaigned for this, they won, so let them lead this and be accountable for its ensuing success or failure.Whats happenng in the government at the moment is shambolic.

by lostinwales Wed 18 Jul 2018, 11:35 pm

catchweight wrote:I think its time for May to go. It was obvious before the referendum that leaving the EU and negotitation a new arrangement was an impossibility within the timeframe allocated. Its even clearer now. Virtually no meaningful progress has been made.

The Chequers arrangement is nothing more than a damage limitation excercise almost certainly leaving us in worse position than we started. Almost nobody is happy with the compromise. It is leaving an arrangement at great cost to sign up to a worse arrangement. Sheer madness.

Its time for the Leavers to take ownership of this. A hard Brexit looks not just likely, but the only practical way of doing this within the time frame given. The Leavers campaigned for this, they won, so let them lead this and be accountable for its ensuing success or failure.Whats happenng in the government at the moment is shambolic.

Who would you replace her with? You are right of course but it is a lot easier to be destructive than constructive

by catchweight Thu 19 Jul 2018, 12:07 am

I think being destructive is the only realistic way forward now. Face up to the reality that a new and better deal with the eu cannot be agreed. Reject a compromise thats ultimstely just damage limitation that satisfies nobody. And as a matter of urgency start putting into effect contingency for a hard brexit with no deal.

I think one of the influencial brexiteers should start leading from the front on this and carry the can. Mogg, johnson, gove or whoever. I dont think they are good options but the realities of where this is headed need to be addressed and lead by those that campaigned for it and won.

If chequers is the best May can do then its obvious its not worth leaving the eu for.

by Luke Thu 19 Jul 2018, 12:18 am

Apparently before last night's vote on customs after Brexit (which she won by 6), May and the whips threatened remain backing mps with a general election this summer if they didn't get her plans through.
That's a desperate measure.
Though she was defeated on a separate amendment about participation in the EU system for regulating medicines.

A yougov poll shows labour lead has grown 5 points since the chequers meeting 2 weeks ago.

I think the question is do any of the leave MPS want to take over?
At this moment which ever way your going to turn your upsetting half the party, half your vote. And this could take years to overcome.
On the flip side, bring Britain out successfully and you'd be regarded as hero.
Do the Conservatives have anyone prepared to stand up? Because from what I've seen all they seem good at is standing behind someone letting them take the blame while complaining.

by lostinwales Thu 19 Jul 2018, 11:54 am

Luke wrote:Apparently before last night's vote on customs after Brexit (which she won by 6), May and the whips threatened remain backing mps with a general election this summer if they didn't get her plans through.
That's a desperate measure.
Though she was defeated on a separate amendment about participation in the EU system for regulating medicines.

A yougov poll shows labour lead has grown 5 points since the chequers meeting 2 weeks ago.

I think the question is do any of the leave MPS want to take over?
At this moment which ever way your going to turn your upsetting half the party, half your vote. And this could take years to overcome.
On the flip side, bring Britain out successfully and you'd be regarded as hero.
Do the Conservatives have anyone prepared to stand up? Because from what I've seen all they seem good at is standing behind someone letting them take the blame while complaining.

They have been breaking the standard deals on pairing too. Jo Swinson (Lib dem) who is on maternity leave was paired with a Con who voted in a couple of the votes.

by lostinwales Thu 19 Jul 2018, 12:01 pm

catchweight wrote:I think being destructive is the only realistic way forward now. Face up to the reality that a new and better deal with the eu cannot be agreed. Reject a compromise thats ultimstely just damage limitation that satisfies nobody. And as a matter of urgency start putting into effect contingency for a hard brexit with no deal.

I think one of the influencial brexiteers should start leading from the front on this and carry the can. Mogg, johnson, gove or whoever. I dont think they are good options but the realities of where this is headed need to be addressed and lead by those that campaigned for it and won.

If chequers is the best May can do then its obvious its not worth leaving the eu for.

Much though it would be fun to let leave own this properly I still live here and a no deal brexit will be catastrophic for all of us. It is unfortunately not a joke.

Much better to drop the whole thing even if it means the ERG f*wits will still be there carping on from the sidelines.

I read a very interesting article recently on WTO - which seems to be the fallback position. It is more a suicide position than anything else. Tariffs are not the problem by the way, it is regulation and standards. The type of regulatory agreements needed to make WTO work cannot be magic'd into existence overnight and without them everything going out and coming in needs checking and signing off. We are not set up to do that. We won't be set up to do that in any realistic time frame - which means trade slows to a standstill.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 19 Jul 2018, 12:08 pm

Luke wrote:Apparently before last night's vote on customs after Brexit (which she won by 6), May and the whips threatened remain backing mps with a general election this summer if they didn't get her plans through.
That's a desperate measure.
Though she was defeated on a separate amendment about participation in the EU system for regulating medicines.

A yougov poll shows labour lead has grown 5 points since the chequers meeting 2 weeks ago.

I think the question is do any of the leave MPS want to take over?
At this moment which ever way your going to turn your upsetting half the party, half your vote. And this could take years to overcome.
On the flip side, bring Britain out successfully and you'd be regarded as hero.
Do the Conservatives have anyone prepared to stand up? Because from what I've seen all they seem good at is standing behind someone letting them take the blame while complaining.

No. You're joking right? They're all minnows as Statesmen/women. It's also been obvious since the actual Referendum result was announced, that they don't have a scooby about what they need to do, or really understand what they're dealing with. In fact, I doubt any of them have ever really engaged with the EU and its supporting legislation, so they're stuffed in trying to understand the necessary regulation, and develop post-Brexit policies etc, in barely two years.

In principle, I agree with catchweight - May should stand down and precipitate a leadership election where only Brexiteers stand. Let them own it.

Then again, this is a Nation's livelihood here. Could it possibly be the case that May's approach reflects a balance of actual knowledge as to what's coming down the line via a hard Brexit? Brexiteers might not like it, but it might simply reflect actual reality in terms of how a hard Brexit is most likely to affect the average Brit.

I hope History treats Rees-Mogg, Johnson et al with the contempt they deserve.

by lostinwales Thu 19 Jul 2018, 12:31 pm

The leavers won the ref (Yes it was an illegal campaign but apparently the extra money spent has no effect on the votes so that is why someone spent it)

They had a chance to develop a plan. They even could have delayed article 50 to let themselves have more time to develop a plan.

They have failed

We need to reset the whole process.

by Luke Thu 19 Jul 2018, 3:31 pm

I was a bit yes. As long as someonelse can take the blame they're fine. Expect them to stand up for there actions then that's the problem.

I will never understand why May triggered article 50 when she did. How would putting it back a year actually effect anything other than maybe having a plan to start negotiations with. And giving them time to sort out a position. Instead of doing it ad hock.

Navy.
As much as I dislike the people you mention. The major person to blame is Cameron for doing this in the first place. And him and Osborne for expecting to win the referendum easily, so not bothering with much of a campaign.

The whole campaigns for both sides were full of lies. Fear tactics (remember Boris with his when Turkey which is not happening soon, join the EU 76 million turks are coming to England? ). As much as remains its the economy. When what it actually needed was just someone to say this is what the EU does for you, this is what could happen if we left. And then let people make an informed decision.
The whole process since it was announced to this stage has been a shambles. And it's not going to end when /should we pull out. It's going to take years to negotiate new deals, and by then I would imagine Scotland on the verge if not having had a second independence referendum. And possibly Northern Ireland looking at one as well.

by lostinwales Thu 19 Jul 2018, 4:33 pm

Luke wrote:I was a bit yes. As long as someonelse can take the blame they're fine. Expect them to stand up for there actions then that's the problem.

I will never understand why May triggered article 50 when she did. How would putting it back a year actually effect anything other than maybe having a plan to start negotiations with. And giving them time to sort out a position. Instead of doing it ad hock.

Navy.
As much as I dislike the people you mention. The major person to blame is Cameron for doing this in the first place. And him and Osborne for expecting to win the referendum easily, so not bothering with much of a campaign.

The whole campaigns for both sides were full of lies. Fear tactics (remember Boris with his when Turkey which is not happening soon, join the EU 76 million turks are coming to England? ). As much as remains its the economy. When what it actually needed was just someone to say this is what the EU does for you, this is what could happen if we left. And then let people make an informed decision.
The whole process since it was announced to this stage has been a shambles. And it's not going to end when /should we pull out. It's going to take years to negotiate new deals, and by then I would imagine Scotland on the verge if not having had a second independence referendum. And possibly Northern Ireland looking at one as well.

On a wider stage the problems are that the government is giving up on conventions such as pairing in order to win votes and are currently condoning illegal activity in the vote leave campaign during the referendum. This is no longer opinion but fact, and members of the board of vote leave (Gove for one) are in government.

There are a couple of related issues. There are a lot of pissed off people and there is a strong eurosceptic community out there. Those people need to be dealt with. If they need to be helped (i.e. investment into areas etc) then they need to be helped. If they need to be educated as to what the EU does for us then that has to happen too. Some people will always hate these structures regardless, and that is OK. But I'd feel happier if they had done the research and still hated the EU rather than doing so just because the Daily Mail et al have been telling them that all their woes are down to the EU for the last 40 years.

The other huge issue is that the referendum disenfranchised 2 groups who are hugely dependent on our relationship with the EU, and those groups number millions. Those of course are EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU. These are not some arbitrary 'other' or strangers. I have one sister in law who is from the EU and another from further afield. I genuinely am relieved my father in law died a few years ago because he was almost certainly an undocumented immigrant, but then he came to the UK as an orphaned child refugee in the aftermath of WWII. I am sure proving that in the current climate would have been stressful.

by Luke Thu 19 Jul 2018, 6:39 pm

As soon as a referendum was announced that was always going to be a problem.
People were always going to split into 2 groups (leave and remain). And because it was such a decisive issue there was never going to be a concensus of middle ground. So rather than having a fact of finding out the facts people voted by feeling and how the press/media portrayed the EU. And when people (like Johnson), came out with phrases like we can have our cake and eat it. They bought the lies, and unfortunately are now finding out the truth. Meanwhile the main protagonists (Cameron,Osborne,Farage,Johnson etc), have all left into lucrative careers, while the public are left to pick up the pieces and try and find away to live.

But there was never any idea how they were going to deal with genuine refregees or the Irish border problem (which were always going to be obvious issues). What was going to happen to EU citizens over here who work and contribute taxes, or English people abroad. Because they didn't care as long as they won. Hence the problems we have now.

And this has become part of the stupid situation in government. Where it's become more important to have an even number roughly of Brexiters and remainers in government rather than the best person for the job.

Just an update, there's pressure on the chief whip to resign after the pairing issue and some of the bullying. Downing street say it was an error.
Funny how it was an error that helped them. So doubt anything will be done.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 19 Jul 2018, 6:46 pm

Sales down 0.5%..Forecasted to be up 0.2 %....

The Economy struggles but we have Labour fighting over Anti Semitism and the Tories killing themselves over Brexit..

Don't moan about Trump..

by **Pr4wn** Thu 19 Jul 2018, 7:02 pm

What does Trump have to do with any of that? Shoehorning at its finest....

by catchweight Fri 20 Jul 2018, 7:54 am

I believe May stepping down should represent as much about changing tact as making the brexiteers responsible. The deal May has come up with is obviously worse than staying in the eu and does not satisy anyone irrepective of what way they voted. Whats the point of pushing this through?

I think a hard brexit is the only plausible means to get out of the e.u without years of deadlock and wrangling. That reality needs to be faced up to. The brexiteers who campaigned for this should take charge of it so that its clear yo the public that success or failure belongs yo them. If brexit fails with brexiteers at the helm then this will send a clear message to the people that it hasnt worked. I think they need to be given the responsibilty of maling it work so there are no excuses if it fails.

As it stands we have hopeless deadlock and no concensus leading to a total inability to make this work. May as a remainer and with whats effectively a damage limitation policy will never convince leave voters.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 20 Jul 2018, 8:27 am

Luke wrote:I was a bit yes. As long as someonelse can take the blame they're fine. Expect them to stand up for there actions then that's the problem.

I will never understand why May triggered article 50 when she did. How would putting it back a year actually effect anything other than maybe having a plan to start negotiations with. And giving them time to sort out a position. Instead of doing it ad hock.

Navy.
As much as I dislike the people you mention. The major person to blame is Cameron for doing this in the first place. And him and Osborne for expecting to win the referendum easily, so not bothering with much of a campaign.

The whole campaigns for both sides were full of lies. Fear tactics (remember Boris with his when Turkey which is not happening soon, join the EU 76 million turks are coming to England? ). As much as remains its the economy. When what it actually needed was just someone to say this is what the EU does for you, this is what could happen if we left. And then let people make an informed decision.
The whole process since it was announced to this stage has been a shambles. And it's not going to end when /should we pull out. It's going to take years to negotiate new deals, and by then I would imagine Scotland on the verge if not having had a second independence referendum. And possibly Northern Ireland looking at one as well.

This was certainly put forward by many 'experts', but then that was 'Project Fear' and Gove so wonderfully said 'We don't need experts' picard

. It's done and we (as in, the general public) will have to live with it. Personally, I don't (and never have) given a scheiss if we're arguably better off in 30-40 years. I'm alive now (as are my kids) and if I ever meet Johnson, Fox, Farage etc, I'll punch their lights out. "Take back control" my ariss. They don't even know what it is they supposedly don't have 'control' of....

by lostinwales Fri 20 Jul 2018, 12:21 pm

catchweight wrote:I believe May stepping down should represent as much about changing tact as making the brexiteers responsible. The deal May has come up with is obviously worse than staying in the eu and does not satisy anyone irrepective of what way they voted. Whats the point of pushing this through?

I think a hard brexit is the only plausible means to get out of the e.u without years of deadlock and wrangling. That reality needs to be faced up to. The brexiteers who campaigned for this should take charge of it so that its clear yo the public that success or failure belongs yo them. If brexit fails with brexiteers at the helm then this will send a clear message to the people that it hasnt worked. I think they need to be given the responsibilty of maling it work so there are no excuses if it fails.

As it stands we have hopeless deadlock and no concensus leading to a total inability to make this work. May as a remainer and with whats effectively a damage limitation policy will never convince leave voters.

Please please please understand. There is no deal which the EU will accept that is better than what we have now. None. Anything else is just wishfull thinking and BS fed to you by a minority of idiots

And that is not the EU being bad guys. They have a set of criteria - common interests - which they are unable to break - and we should know that. If we ask something of them that is unreasonable they will say no. All we end up with is the idiots playing the blame game.

Please also understand that hard brexit is still totally Poopie for the majority of the population. This is not a game or a joke. Of course there are countries that manage outside of the EU but they have not spent 40 years evolving inside that organisation. You are talking about separating siamese twins here

If we must leave we should take time to get it right.

by Duty281 Fri 20 Jul 2018, 2:17 pm

navyblueshorts wrote: Gove so wonderfully said 'We don't need experts' .

Ah, the classic misquote.

by Duty281 Fri 20 Jul 2018, 2:23 pm

lostinwales wrote:The leavers won the ref (Yes it was an illegal campaign but apparently the extra money spent has no effect on the votes so that is why someone spent it)

They had a chance to develop a plan. They even could have delayed article 50 to let themselves have more time to develop a plan.

They have failed

We need to reset the whole process.

Remain spent more. 'Britain Stronger in Europe' was also fined by the pointless Electoral Commission.

Cameron's government should have planned for an exit, even if they weren't expecting such a result. The referendum, of course, wasn't like a typical election, so those who led the Leave campaign weren't automatically placed in the position of highest authority, meaning they wouldn't have been able to develop a plan anyway.

by Duty281 Fri 20 Jul 2018, 2:27 pm

Luke wrote:When what it actually needed was just someone to say this is what the EU does for you, this is what could happen if we left. And then let people make an informed decision.

And it's not going to end when /should we pull out. It's going to take years to negotiate new deals

1) There was plenty of that. Far too much of that, even.

2) Not necessarily. Could take months.

by lostinwales Fri 20 Jul 2018, 2:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote: Gove so wonderfully said 'We don't need experts' .

Ah, the classic misquote.

What was the correct quote then? That is the one that was widely circulated and arguably did far too much damage.

To be honest we are still stuck with the consequences, so that we have politicians telling the chiefs of industry how they should be doing their job

by Luke Fri 20 Jul 2018, 2:52 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Luke wrote:When what it actually needed was just someone to say this is what the EU does for you, this is what could happen if we left. And then let people make an informed decision.

And it's not going to end when /should we pull out. It's going to take years to negotiate new deals

1) There was plenty of that. Far too much of that, even.

2) Not necessarily. Could take months.

There was if you follow politics. There wasn't if you don't.

Doubtful with this government. We probably won't decide who we want to talk to till after the Brexit process ends. And let's not forget, we could be in a terrible position to start any negotiations.
If done properly (ie have a list know of who you want to talk to about what know), then yes your right. But I really doubt there is one.

by lostinwales Fri 20 Jul 2018, 2:55 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Luke wrote:When what it actually needed was just someone to say this is what the EU does for you, this is what could happen if we left. And then let people make an informed decision.

And it's not going to end when /should we pull out. It's going to take years to negotiate new deals

1) There was plenty of that. Far too much of that, even.

2) Not necessarily. Could take months.

1) apparently not. So many misconceptions still floating around as 'facts', from sovereignty and passport colour at one end to what WTO would mean in practice at the other. Given that the government are still arguing what Brexit means after 16 months you'd be hard pressed to determine the detail of what people voted for on the day.
2) I suppose it could but have you got any evidence of significant trade and regulatory deals being negotiated in months? What also makes that highly unlikely is that we have cretins trying to run things, and nobody in a mood to help them out after they have been so crap with everyone else. Who is actually going to do this? Liam Fox and his department of travelling around the world and being ignored?

by lostinwales Fri 20 Jul 2018, 3:00 pm

Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:The leavers won the ref (Yes it was an illegal campaign but apparently the extra money spent has no effect on the votes so that is why someone spent it)

They had a chance to develop a plan. They even could have delayed article 50 to let themselves have more time to develop a plan.

They have failed

We need to reset the whole process.

Remain spent more. 'Britain Stronger in Europe' was also fined by the pointless Electoral Commission.

Cameron's government should have planned for an exit, even if they weren't expecting such a result. The referendum, of course, wasn't like a typical election, so those who led the Leave campaign weren't automatically placed in the position of highest authority, meaning they wouldn't have been able to develop a plan anyway.

I take it you have no worries about where the extra funding for the leave campaign came from then, and the links with the fines for Facebook etc.

Remain effectively had its wrists slapped for printing some extra leaflets. Both were wrong but one was on a different scale. Either way does not do much for confidence in the results.

Personally I am actually more concerned over the disenfranchising of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 20 Jul 2018, 3:02 pm

They came away from Chequers with a deal and then changed three things to suit the Brexiteers almost straightaway.

Nonsense that with billions of pounds and millions of jobs at stake that the best deal they think the UK can get is so easily mangled by 60 right wingers..

Really is a mess and I think now the Public are waking up to reality.

We should "shoehorn" in a new referendum asap.

Brexit will be a disaster.

by Luke Fri 20 Jul 2018, 4:24 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Luke wrote:When what it actually needed was just someone to say this is what the EU does for you, this is what could happen if we left. And then let people make an informed decision.

And it's not going to end when /should we pull out. It's going to take years to negotiate new deals

1) There was plenty of that. Far too much of that, even.

2) Not necessarily. Could take months.

1) apparently not. So many misconceptions still floating around as 'facts', from sovereignty and passport colour at one end to what WTO would mean in practice at the other. Given that the government are still arguing what Brexit means after 16 months you'd be hard pressed to determine the detail of what people voted for on the day.
2) I suppose it could but have you got any evidence of significant trade and regulatory deals being negotiated in months? What also makes that highly unlikely is that we have cretins trying to run things, and nobody in a mood to help them out after they have been so crap with everyone else. Who is actually going to do this? Liam Fox and his department of travelling around the world and being ignored?

There was if you were prepared to read up on it. But most people weren't, and the sensationlist headlines and articles in the media didn't help with the facts. Just giving there opinions that they believe would help people vote the way they wanted them to(like there is as much imagration from africa/middle east then Europe but why tell people that). So instead of informed votes, people went in with a pre prepared bias. Without really knowing the full extent of what they were voting for.

What makes this worse to me, is the government then ttriggered article 50, without any base or negotiations about what there aims were. The arguements theyre now having should have happened last year. Then trigger article 50. Hence the mess we're now in.

My work place has just been taken over, and that took about 6 months. So in theory it can be done.The problem is we will be in such a weak position that any deals to benefit us won't be quick. And in the mean time our economy will suffer,. Plus as you put trade deals as a rule have so many different parts and implements that on average these deals tend to take alot longer.
And again as you put, I don't trust the people who would be doing the negotiations. And everyone else will be looking at this mess, saying no. Trade deals have to be beneficial to both sides, and unless we cave then think like I said it will take years.

Add in the fact, that after Brexit there will probably be another GE probably triggered by a leadership battle in the conservatives. This will hold everything up even further.
So even more austerity, less jobs, a worse NHS, And country were crime does pay, as the police aren't going to/able to do anything about it. More companies probably leaving (like the bank of America which is transferring it's offices to Dublin & Frankfurt). There is not much to look forward to.

by CaledonianCraig Fri 20 Jul 2018, 4:46 pm

Luke has it pretty much spot on. Also not thought about is the amount of EU funding for noble causes that will be lost. Also the loss of the use of the communication satellites Galileo has sent the UK into panic as tgey have no fall-back alternative in place.

I am ambivalent about the EU and can see its pros and cons but I am sure of this. If the UK voted for Brexit then it has to be full and complete. No trying to hang onto the best parts. No trying to stay in a customs union as it goes against the whole point of Brexit and be ready to accept hard borders in Ireland.

by lostinwales Fri 20 Jul 2018, 5:01 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Luke has it pretty much spot on. Also not thought about is the amount of EU funding for noble causes that will be lost. Also the loss of the use of the communication satellites Galileo has sent the UK into panic as tgey have no fall-back alternative in place.

I am ambivalent about the EU and can see its pros and cons but I am sure of this. If the UK voted for Brexit then it has to be full and complete. No trying to hang onto the best parts. No trying to stay in a customs union as it goes against the whole point of Brexit and be ready to accept hard borders in Ireland.

What is the point of Brexit? I am still waiting to find out.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 20 Jul 2018, 5:07 pm

Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote: Gove so wonderfully said 'We don't need experts' .

Ah, the classic misquote.

Whatever.

by CaledonianCraig Fri 20 Jul 2018, 5:09 pm

lostinwales wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Luke has it pretty much spot on. Also not thought about is the amount of EU funding for noble causes that will be lost. Also the loss of the use of the communication satellites Galileo has sent the UK into panic as tgey have no fall-back alternative in place.

I am ambivalent about the EU and can see its pros and cons but I am sure of this. If the UK voted for Brexit then it has to be full and complete. No trying to hang onto the best parts. No trying to stay in a customs union as it goes against the whole point of Brexit and be ready to accept hard borders in Ireland.

What is the point of Brexit? I am still waiting to find out.

I have no doubt many yes votes were based fully on the now proven false belief of immigrants being stopped getting into the country. For the everyday man in the street little thought was given to trade deals etc. It was all about immigrants. Now though the reality of the enormity of Brexit is sinking in. For me a logical decision would be to have another vote once full deal details are known. I wouldcsay you would then get a very different result.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 20 Jul 2018, 5:10 pm

Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:The leavers won the ref (Yes it was an illegal campaign but apparently the extra money spent has no effect on the votes so that is why someone spent it)

They had a chance to develop a plan. They even could have delayed article 50 to let themselves have more time to develop a plan.

They have failed

We need to reset the whole process.

Remain spent more. 'Britain Stronger in Europe' was also fined by the pointless Electoral Commission.

Cameron's government should have planned for an exit, even if they weren't expecting such a result. The referendum, of course, wasn't like a typical election, so those who led the Leave campaign weren't automatically placed in the position of highest authority, meaning they wouldn't have been able to develop a plan anyway.

A version of what Farage et al will no doubt say. Not my fault Guv. Nothing to do with me. You couldn't make it up.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 20 Jul 2018, 5:11 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Luke wrote:When what it actually needed was just someone to say this is what the EU does for you, this is what could happen if we left. And then let people make an informed decision.

And it's not going to end when /should we pull out. It's going to take years to negotiate new deals

1) There was plenty of that. Far too much of that, even.

2) Not necessarily. Could take months.

A more ridiculous claim I haven't heard here for some time.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 20 Jul 2018, 5:17 pm

lostinwales wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Luke has it pretty much spot on. Also not thought about is the amount of EU funding for noble causes that will be lost. Also the loss of the use of the communication satellites Galileo has sent the UK into panic as tgey have no fall-back alternative in place.

I am ambivalent about the EU and can see its pros and cons but I am sure of this. If the UK voted for Brexit then it has to be full and complete. No trying to hang onto the best parts. No trying to stay in a customs union as it goes against the whole point of Brexit and be ready to accept hard borders in Ireland.

What is the point of Brexit? I am still waiting to find out.

Umm, it allowed a blokey tw@t from UKIP and some blond tw@t from the Tories to play their own, utterly selfish games? At everyone else's expense? For decades?

by Duty281 Sat 21 Jul 2018, 3:13 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote: Gove so wonderfully said 'We don't need experts' .

Ah, the classic misquote.

What was the correct quote then? That is the one that was widely circulated and arguably did far too much damage.

To be honest we are still stuck with the consequences, so that we have politicians telling the chiefs of industry how they should be doing their job

Yes, the false one is widely circulated by the criminally ignorant, like Navy, or just the purely devious.

The actual quote, minus the interruptions from the interviewer:

"I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong."

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