Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

First topic message reminder :

2017 Autumn Test Results

Scotland 44 - Samoa 38

Tries - Hogg, Jones, McInally (2), Dunbar, Horne

Scotland 17 - New Zealand 22

Tries - J Gray, Jones

Scotland 53 - Australia 24

McGuigan (2), Price, Maitland, J Gray, Jones, Barclay, McInally


6N fixtures

Wales V Scotland
Scotland V France

Scotland V England

Ireland V Scotland
Italy V Scotland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71ktr4Iej5E

Found these highlights of Lang published last year. Definitely a future prospect (along with Hastings). To be honest, his performance vs wasps looked very sharp and Russell didn't exactly need to build up a wealth of experience before his Scotland debut. I wouldn't be surprised if he is called up and we then see Hastings featuring in the summer too to add to the competition (where are they going btw?). Competition at 10 has been non existent since 2014 and further back really..

Excited about the squad announcement tomorrow but definitely nervous about the front row options and how Scotland will be able to replicate the performances they produced against NZ and Australia.

We're touring USA and Canada in the summer and trying to organise a test against Argentina. I hope we do get the Argentina game to give us a decent test - USA and Canada should be used as development opportunities.

As long as we don't fly to SA for a 4th test like the last time we toured America!

Get in before the Welsh then. Welsh father. Scottish mum. Born by the stoop.

The summer tour is to North America (Canada and USA) with talk of an additional test against Argentina.

In many ways the perfect tour to blood s few fresh faces and rest a few time served players. For many of the big names it will be their last chance of a summer off before the next WC.

We just need to nurse FR through this competition and then maybe someone else might show some signs of stepping up. For all the depth we are starting to develop elsewhere on the pitch, we are way to exposed at FH for any degree of comfort.

I do think the nature of Finn Russell's promotion was more to do with the standard of fly-half in Scotland at the time as much as his own ability. The fact that Duncan Weir was the best fly-half in the room, let alone the country is in its own way terrifying. That being said taking Lang and Hastings on tour may not be a bad idea, blooding them in with the squad and the style before the world cup could have prove dividends the year later. If they can get a game each (maybe more) under their belt as well as minutes in the Autumn against whoever the 'weaker' game is as well as Italy in the six nations it would put them in a much stronger position for the World Cup. At the very least it might mean Finn Russell doesn't play every game in the world cup. Also having two-three Scotland games on the bench might go a small way to mitigate the effects of him being outside SRU control the year before a world cup. If by 2019 Hastings has had a season under his belt as Russell's understudy at Glasgow, a year as Glasgow's first choice, and four to five Scotland caps it will give us another option that is actually a fly-half (not Jackson or Horne) and also a rugby player (not Weir).

That being said rushing them in against the top six or seven teams around us this close to the world cup would not be beneficial. I was at Murrayfield for the Wales game in 2015 and Russell at a crucial stage of the game grubbered a penalty that should have got us into the 22 into the arms of the opposition winger. It was only recently that one or two Russell penalties per game were missing touch. Jonny Sexton didn't become a regular until he was between 24 and 26 if I remember correctly, comparatively Russell learnt on the job. Now we have a top quality fly-half it is imperative to use him wisely to ensure we bring in the next one properly.

Totally agree Numbers, before I heard of Lang I assumed it would be Hastings with Horne or someone else backing up Russell during the World Cup. Now there is a real chance to bring through two talented youngsters gradually so they could potentially be ready for the RWC behind Russell who his developing into an excellent FH. I think this has to be a priority so as to iron out the little problems that are affecting Scotland. The strength in depth hurt us last 6N during a few games, i.e England and France. That has to be a big focus on the summer tour of Canada and USA??? Really excited for Scotland to be upgraded to better summer tours in 2020. I think I'd prefer a rematch vs Fiji in the USA or something.

Unrelated note, I had a glance at Scotland vs Wales 2011 6N and wow, that was a dire dire game. Incredible how much better NH rugby is now.

I went to that game Bsando. Depressing all around.

Hastings and/or Lang for Canada and USA would be good. I would be tempted to tell Russell not to come along unless we have a test in Argentina.

The lack of an A side is a problem. These are the sort of guys who could play for Scotland A and get experience against USA/Canada a la Churchill Cup or go tour Eastern Europe if we could arrange it. Admittedly we need to get more props healthy first...

The issue with Scotland’s A side is it binds players to Scotland. Therefore someone like Ben Vellacott or Gary Graham who would have undoubtedly been considered may well have turned down selection. Conversely the amount of English, New Zealand or South African born players we might not have had access to had their second teams been more active would result in being without some quality players. An A team would be brilliant for Scottish rugby in the long term but for now it might do more harm than good.

It is exactly for that reason that I hope the SRU have serious plans for player development, and widening Scottish pro rugby in the long term. More and more of our players have come outside the Scottish system, in fact you could make a case for only two or three of our starting back line having done so. The SRU need to ensure that this current vein of form is the relaunch of Scottish competitiveness not an era we all look back on and say “remember when we beat Australia by 50” etc.

Bloody hell, Scott Lawson?

Pretty happy with that squad, but surprised Lawson's in there.

Lawson probably not a bad call to fill the third hooker spot. He is still playing well and regularly for Newcastle.

He will know his role in this, the third spot to cover for injuries etc. and will no doubt be happy to fulfil it.

We were desperate for a 3rd hooker. If Lawson can still do it then fair enough.

Fowles and Pyrgos in as 3rd/4th scrum half which is a serious disappointment. Visser deserved a spot the way he has been playing ahead of Seymour and L Jones.

Overall though, plenty to look forward to. Solid cover at pretty much every position.

Good to see Kinghorn in the squad, he most certainly deserves it.

Bradbury more of a surprise, but we know what he can do on his day.

A few walking wounded involved and a few to get up to speed. Don't expect Laidlaw, Bennett or Wilson featuring in the first two games, but could come into play during the competition.

Still going for Fowles over SHC, clrarly still not impressed with the passing. Probably feels that Horne G, not ready yet either, may well be right.

I am very happy with that, solid selection of experience, upcoming talent and a couple of young prospects. Great opportunity for Kinghorn, MacCallum and Fowels to train with Scotland and maybe even sneak on the bench for a game or two. Lawson I am assuming is there as bench cover incase MacInally or Turner are injured but I guess he'll probably play no part in the games assuming there are no injuries

8 Edinburgh Forwards, 3 Edinburgh backs
7 Glasgow forwards, 11 Glasgow backs
6 Outside Scotland Forwards, 5 Outside of Scotland backs

40 players total

Head Coach Gregor Townsend today named four uncapped players in a 40-man Scotland squad for the 2018 NatWest 6 Nations Championship.

The potential debutants are Edinburgh Rugby trio Blair Kinghorn (full-back) [pictured right], scrum-half Nathan Fowles and prop Murray McCallum, plus Glasgow Warriors prop D’arcy Rae.

Kinghorn, McCallum and Rae are all graduates of the BT Sport Academy.

The squad is also boosted by the return of several experienced players, absent from recent campaigns, including scrum-half Greig Laidlaw (ASM Clermont Auvergne), lock Richie Gray (Toulouse), centres Mark Bennett (Edinburgh Rugby) and Duncan Taylor (Saracens); and Worcester Warriors back-row David Denton.

Laidlaw, Gray and Bennett haven’t featured for the dark blues since last year’s championship, while it was 2015 when returning prop Jon Welsh last saw international action and longer still for veteran hooker Scott Lawson (2014).

A sequence of untimely injuries has meant Denton has been absent from test duty since the 2016 summer tour to Japan, while Taylor and London Irish prop Gordon Reid missed the 2017 autumn test campaign with a knee and head injury respectively.

Scarlets back-row John Barclay will continue to captain the side since taking on the mantle from Laidlaw in last year’s championship, leading Scotland to victories in six of nine test matches.

Scotland Head Coach Gregor Townsend, said: “With the announcement of this 40-man squad, we are now entering the key stages of our preparation for this year’s NatWest 6 Nations Championship.

“It’s a bigger squad than we originally planned –which is largely down to the competition for places – with a number of players having performed well in the Autumn Tests and a few others putting their hands up for selection in recent weeks.

“We welcome Blair Kinghorn into our group for the first time, who has been in excellent form with Edinburgh this season, and also three of our most experienced players in Richie Gray, Greig Laidlaw and Scott Lawson.

“We are looking forward to working with them and the rest of the squad to ensure that we build on the momentum the players generated in 2017.”

In addition to the squad, three players have been invited to train with the group: Luke Crosbie (Edinburgh Rugby), Darcy Graham (Edinburgh Rugby) and Adam Hastings (Glasgow Warriors).

SCOTLAND SQUAD FOR 2018 NATWEST 6 NATIONS

BACKS (19)

Mark Bennett (Edinburgh Rugby) – 20 caps
Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 28 caps
Nick Grigg (Glasgow Warriors) – 1 cap
Chris Harris (Newcastle Falcons) – 1 cap
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 55 caps
Pete Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 28 caps
Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) – 32 caps
Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 11 caps
Lee Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
Greig Laidlaw (ASM Clermont Auvergne) – 58 caps
Sean Maitland (Saracens) – 29 caps
Byron McGuigan (Sale Sharks) – 2 caps
Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 11 caps
Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps
Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 32 caps
Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 39 caps
Duncan Taylor (Saracens) – 21 caps
Nathan Fowles (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped

FORWARDS (21)

John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 66 caps
Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 5 caps
Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps
Magnus Bradbury (Edinburgh Rugby) – 2 caps
David Denton (Worcester Warriors) – 35 caps
Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – 5 caps
Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) – 18 caps
Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 38 caps
Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 64 caps
Luke Hamilton (Leicester Tigers) – 1 cap
Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors) – 20 caps
Scott Lawson (Newcastle Falcons) – 46 caps
Murray McCallum (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
Stuart McInally (Edinburgh Rugby) – 12 caps
Gordon Reid (London Irish) – 27 caps
D’arcy Rae (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped
Ben Toolis (Edinburgh Rugby) – 7 caps
George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) – 2 caps
Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 15 caps
Jon Welsh (Newcastle Falcons) – 11 caps
Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 32 caps

Good to see Crosbie, Hastings and Graham coming in to train with the squad as well. A bit of forward planning, particularly at FH going on there as well.

Surprised Sutherland isn't involved, I would have thought he would have been a certainty

EWT Spoons wrote:Surprised Sutherland isn't involved, I would have thought he would have been a certainty

I was thinking about his inclusion leading up to the announcement and I saw from the highlights against Stade Francais he made one very big error in defence and looked like he was blowing quite hard as well. Pure speculation but maybe Townsend doesn't think he is quite up to the defensive standards he needs and maybe he thinks Rae is better option

EWT Spoons wrote:Surprised Sutherland isn't involved, I would have thought he would have been a certainty

You would imagine, I missed that one as well. I guess he is hardly up to speed get after his injuries and that probably matters more for a prop than for a back like Bennett or Laidlaw.

He may come in later if there ate any more injuries and this will hopefully let him get some game time with Edinburgh in the meantime.

Looks like McCallam will be covering both sides though, a big ask for such a young man.

Disappointed to see that Horne wasn't even invited to train with the boys. Seems a bit of an oversight to me, especially as a woefully underperforming Pyrgos has been selected.

NeilyBroon wrote:Disappointed to see that Horne wasn't even invited to train with the boys. Seems a bit of an oversight to me, especially as a woefully underperforming Pyrgos has been selected.

I guess we just need to let George carry on playing for Glasgow for the rest of this season, the game time he will get with them will probably do his career the power of good in the long term, more so than backing up as a squad player. In truth and despite his performances so far, he is probably not quite ready for international rugby.

I think Toonie has Price and Laidlaw down to fill the two spots in the 23 and I can only see the other two getting anywhere near the team if there are any injuries.

Still don't understand the Selkirk Pixie and Barry being there instead of Visser.

Better all round game?

Decent enough squad, few changes I'd like to see;

Ashe > Du Preez
Ritchie > Harley
Horne > Prygos
SHC > Fowles

Surprised Sutherland isn't in the squad and it's tough on Visser who's form has been better than Seymour.

George Carlin wrote:Still don't understand the Selkirk Pixie and Barry being there instead of Visser.

Work rate, defence!

They can both score tries as well, as we saw in the autumn.

TV is a luxury player that Scotland maybe can't afford any more. We can score tries right across the backline now, not just on his wing.

So squad listed by position, with players listed in my order of preference assuming all would be fit:

LH
Reid
Bhattie
(McCallum)

H
McInally
Turner
Lawson

TH
Welsh
McCallum
Rae

L
Gray
Gray
Toolis
Gilchrist

6
Barclay
CDP
Harley

7
Watson
Hamilton

8 (difficult to say who top choice is)
Denton
Wilson
Bradbury

SH
Price
Laidlaw
Pyrgos
Fowles

SO
Russell
Horne

IC
Dunbar
Taylor

OC
Jones
Bennett
Harris
Grigg

W
Maitland
McGuigan
Seymour
Jones

FB
Hogg
Kinghorn
Jackson

Picking a 23 for Wales from RDW preferences

Reid, McInally, Welsh, Gray, Gray, Barclay, Watson, Denton
Price, Russell, McGuigan, Dunbar, Jones, Maitland, Hogg

Turner, Bhatti, McCallum, Toolis, CDP, Laidlaw, Horne, Taylor/Seymour

That front 5 bench is so young. I expect Gilchrist will get the nod.

Hazel Sapling wrote:Picking a 23 for Wales from RDW preferences

Reid, McInally, Welsh, Gray, Gray, Barclay, Watson, Denton
Price, Russell, McGuigan, Dunbar, Jones, Maitland, Hogg

Turner, Bhatti, McCallum, Toolis, CDP, Laidlaw, Horne, Taylor/Seymour

That front 5 bench is so young. I expect Gilchrist will get the nod.

I'd be happy with that, although it is unlikely Dunbar and Taylor will be fit so we might have a bit of an experimental midfield.

Is Dunbar definitely crocked? I thought it was one of those we don't want to get fined for resting too many players at once and his knee could do with a week off sort of deals. I guess we will see on Taylor. If he is back this weekend for Sarries, that would be the best indication.

H Jones, has played at 12 mostly for WP in the Currie Cup, and Harris at 13 would be a solid midfield.

Shame M Scott is injured and S Johnson is injured/not qualified yet. Both would offer a little more at 12.

Cannot believe that Denton is back in there.

I suspect we may have seen the last of Visser in a Scotland shirt barring a spate of injuries. A winger the wrong side of 30 who doesn't really fit Townsend's style. He's also playing fairly well in a stuttering Quins team, also in his old age Jamie Roberts has taken to doing an excellent Graeme Morrison impression in the midfield so the fact that any wing is scoring is a surprise.

Given our concerns about the back up 10 ( I have more time for Horne at 10 than some) could laidlaw fill in if Russell is hurt? He did do a couple of seasons at 10

TJ wrote:Given our concerns about the back up 10 ( I have more time for Horne at 10 than some) could laidlaw fill in if Russell is hurt?  He did do a couple of seasons at 10

Horne isn't an international quality 10, but he is more so than Laidlaw is!

Jackson should be given a shot. He has improved as a player since his England sojourn. He has had a good season in his secondary position.

Sadly I don't think it will happen. Too many 10's blocking the way at Glasgow for him to get time there this or next season

BigGee wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Still don't understand the Selkirk Pixie and Barry being there instead of Visser.

Work rate, defence!

They can both score tries as well, as we saw in the autumn.

TV is a luxury player that Scotland maybe can't afford any more. We can score tries right across the backline now, not just on his wing.

Yeah I think that probably covers it. Also rumours are the squad asked for him to left out last time round, could be they don't feel he contributes enough. That rumour could be total b0llocks mind you.

If we wanted to gamble on the bench then Laidlaw covering FH would not be a bad shout.

FR is only going to come off if he is injured anyway. so putting Horne in could in some way be a wasted spot.

He hinted at his presser that Kinghorn may cover all three backfield positions. Laidlaw, Taylor and Kinghorn between them could cover all the back positions from the bench and would likely have far more impact than Horne.

Just a thought, but Toonie has been known to do a bit of left field thinking as well.

Hazel Sapling wrote:Jackson should be given a shot. He has improved as a player since his England sojourn. He has had a good season in his secondary position.

Sadly I don't think it will happen. Too many 10's blocking the way at Glasgow for him to get time there this or next season

I don't think Jacko is going to get a look in at 10 or 15 this time around now that Kinghorn is finally in the picture.

He will be released back to Glasgow for their league games I imagine, unless we get shed loads of injuries.

Hazel Sapling wrote:Jackson should be given a shot. He has improved as a player since his England sojourn. He has had a good season in his secondary position.

Sadly I don't think it will happen. Too many 10's blocking the way at Glasgow for him to get time there this or next season

I don't think Jacko is going to get a look in at 10 or 15 this time around now that Kinghorn is finally in the picture.

He will be released back to Glasgow for their league games I imagine, unless we get shed loads of injuries.

Jamie Lyall of the bbc is reporting that Ben Velacott was approached by the SRU, but is now focused on getting capped by England.

We can probably put to rest any chat of him being involved with Scotland going forward.

EWT Spoons wrote:Jamie Lyall of the bbc is reporting that Ben Velacott was approached by the SRU, but is now focused on getting capped by England.

We can probably put to rest any chat of him being involved with Scotland going forward.

well that's him off the Christmas card list!

Can't blame him though. The English setup is far more professional than ours even if his heart was 50/50 for each nation, he has a career to think about so his head would get the casting vote!

tigertattie wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:Jamie Lyall of the bbc is reporting that Ben Velacott was approached by the SRU, but is now focused on getting capped by England.

We can probably put to rest any chat of him being involved with Scotland going forward.

well that's him off the Christmas card list!

Can't blame him though. The English setup is far more professional than ours even if his heart was 50/50 for each nation, he has a career to think about so his head would get the casting vote!

He took the pragmatic option, can't blame him and hope it works out for him.

Fortunately we have other good young SHs, I don't think it is going to be a major issue for us going forward.

Yeah can't blame him for his choice. Short career and he'll be paid handsomely for playing for England, not only in appearance fees but also any future contracts with clubs etc.

Also he has spent his entire life in England so understandable he regards himself as English

EWT Spoons wrote:Yeah can't blame him for his choice.  Short career and he'll be paid handsomely for playing for England, not only in appearance fees but also any future contracts with clubs etc.

Also he has spent his entire life in England so understandable he regards himself as English

How you regard yourself and who you choose to play for are not the same things in a professional sport.

Billy Vinipoulo has openly said that while he is proud to play for England, he still regards himself as Tongan. At least he is being honest about it. I am sure that many other players feel the same way and it is perfectly possible to have split loyalties.

I am likely to be acquiring Italian nationality soon, courtesy of my wife. As it seems unlikely that either of Scotland or Italy will be calling on my services on the rugby field, I will fortunately be spared that dilemma. I am also happy to support Italy against everyone but Scotland. I have kind of got used to following losing sides over the years!

BigGee wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:Yeah can't blame him for his choice.  Short career and he'll be paid handsomely for playing for England, not only in appearance fees but also any future contracts with clubs etc.

Also he has spent his entire life in England so understandable he regards himself as English

How you regard yourself and who you choose to play for are not the same things in a professional sport.

Billy Vinipoulo has openly said that while he is proud to play for England, he still regards himself as Tongan. At least he is being honest about it. I am sure that many other players feel the same way and it is perfectly possible to have split loyalties.

I am likely to be acquiring Italian nationality soon, courtesy of my wife. As it seems unlikely that either of Scotland or Italy will be calling on my services on the rugby field, I will fortunately be spared that dilemma. I am also happy to support Italy against everyone but Scotland. I have kind of got used to following losing sides over the years!

This is true, which is why I called out the financial and upbringing reasons. Not only does he need to look out for himself in his short career (financially) much like Vinipoulo, but he also has the emotional side of things as living his entire life in England to one English parent, probably does make him more inclined to regard himself as English. Not saying he's not going to have an emotional attachment to Scotland as well due to his mum, but there is clearly a choice to be made and the reasons above would likely have influenced his decision.

However whatever the reason he's made his choice and good luck to him.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

TJ wrote:Given our concerns about the back up 10 ( I have more time for Horne at 10 than some) could laidlaw fill in if Russell is hurt?  He did do a couple of seasons at 10

Horne isn't an international quality 10, but he is more so than Laidlaw is!

We only have one international standard 10 tho.

BigGee wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:Jamie Lyall of the bbc is reporting that Ben Velacott was approached by the SRU, but is now focused on getting capped by England.

We can probably put to rest any chat of him being involved with Scotland going forward.

well that's him off the Christmas card list!

Can't blame him though. The English setup is far more professional than ours even if his heart was 50/50 for each nation, he has a career to think about so his head would get the casting vote!

He took the pragmatic option, can't blame him and hope it works out for him.

Fortunately we have other good young SHs, I don't think it is going to be a major issue for us going forward.

You can't blame Vellacott in this situation. It was always going be up to him.

Cameron Redpath (son of Bryan) has grown up in the North of England and is in the English system [Sale Sharks] and is currently in the England u20s. He plays at 10 and looks like a decent prospect. I really hope we haven't lost him already.
At least Redpath sings Flower of Scotland when he plays against Scotland. I wonder if Gary Graham would do the same if picked against us?

A Simply Mesmeric Try wrote:Cameron Redpath (son of Bryan) has grown up in the North of England and is in the English system [Sale Sharks] and is currently in the England u20s. He plays at 10 and looks like a decent prospect. I really hope we haven't lost him already.
At least Redpath sings Flower of Scotland when he plays against Scotland. I wonder if Gary Graham would do the same if picked against us?

That's great craic, he's definitely going to play for us if he's doing that.

I wouldn't close the book on Vellacott just yet. but I do hope Edinburgh get a chance to play Gloucester in the Challenge Cup and the likes of Bradbury, Ritchie, McCallum & Kinghorn can get into him while reminiscing about the U20s.

What's happened with Rory Hutchinson, can't imagine he'll be at Northampton next season and he looked decent at U20s, could he be a worthwhile signing for a pro-side?

Interestingly, Redpath Jr was not in the England u20s squad when it was recently announced. Not sure if we should read anything into that or not.

Our squad should be out pretty soon as well, will be interesting who might be in it.

Hutchinson has hardly had a look in at Saints this year after getting more than a few games last year, its all become a bit of a shambles there and no place for a developing player. He probably does need to move on but goodness knows where. Neither Scottish side seems short of centres.