Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

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2017 Autumn Test Results

Scotland 44 - Samoa 38

Tries - Hogg, Jones, McInally (2), Dunbar, Horne

Scotland 17 - New Zealand 22

Tries - J Gray, Jones

Scotland 53 - Australia 24

McGuigan (2), Price, Maitland, J Gray, Jones, Barclay, McInally


6N fixtures

Wales V Scotland
Scotland V France

Scotland V England

Ireland V Scotland
Italy V Scotland

Well being someone who clearly enjoys some pain, I have just bought 4 tickets to the Stade Olympico to see Scotland's last game against Italy.

I really hope that this does not come down to a wooden spoon decider between us as if we have had that kind of a season, I would not fancy our chances of winning it!

At least it would make the wife happy and she usually feels sorry for me when Scotland lose!

Anyway, I remain hopeful that we can partially redeem ourselves this weekend and play with a bit more purpose and confidence for the rest of the tournament.

Well, that was a dumpster fire. As I can't comment in the match thread (locked) and have finally got 10 minutes (having had to survive Sunday surrounded by my gf's then my own Welsh relatives followed by Monday work (thankfully they only really follow football bar a Frenchman)).

Wales put out the best performance in several years on Saturday and Scotland put out the worst hour since Twickenham. I completely underestimated a Welsh team shorn of it's stars and got the points scored correct for 1 team. Shame it was the wrong one. Well done to Wales. I expected a comfortable win and got egg on my face.

As for Scotland...

- Price should start and be given the opportunity to make up for that. No way can he play that poorly again. I was 15 rows back from that intercept pass and it was so slow, a prop could have intercepted it
- Wales nullified the support runners off Russell and dared him to beat the tackler. He had to go forward and try to call the bluff to make them honour him.
- The kick chase was disciplined from Wales. They never put pressure on the ball but came up in a line. Gave up 10m but the back 3 had nowhere to go. Needed to recognise that, get to the support and recycle quick
- CDP wasn't even on the pitch I think. He may be done for a bit in a Scotland shirt. Not sure if Watson played either. Barclay got outplayed by his club mate and will eat cr*p for it I am sure. Ashe to enter the 23?
- Our defense was a shambles at times with Toolis getting caught out a couple of times (not the only one) and the dogleg gives opportunities for wide players. Why did we not recognise that and have more discipline?
- Jones did not tackle well and Harris could not catch the ball (though no favours were done). Bennett will replace Harris at the least or Grigg could come in
- McGuigan tried to be useful, got nowhere from my vantage point. Not sure what it looked like on TV. Maitland will likely get in for France though he will likely stay in the 23

The scrum held firm for the majority of the game and, with Berghan, we have a shot of a platform for an entire game. Of course they called up Picamoles.

As for comments by Gatland and Jones, who is surprised? Until we put them to the sword, they can keep talking. Jones next month and Gatland in November. Everyone gets taken down a notch or two at some point.

McGuigan is injured apparently so he is definitely out now.

McGuigan I can live without after the last game. He didn't particularly add anything for me and is very much a poacher.

Maitland has a better rugby brain and is usually involved in creating opportunities during games.

For me I'd keep the front 5 the same, maybe Gilchrist for Toolis at a push but I don't think he was particularly terrible - I don't think the backrow got outplayed as much as people say - although DuPreez is definitely out.

Reid
McInally
Welsh
Toolis
Gray
Barclay
Watson
Wilson

The reason I'd put Wilson in is I feel he's very much our Sean Lamont player in the forwards - not the best BUT always gives 100% and gets the boys fired up well. He deserves his place for that if anything else.

Now to the backs. Sadly for lack of alternatives I'd have to keep Finn in, but maybe put Laidlaw in to put him in his place when he needs it. They've played together before so they know each other in that axis so that shouldn't be a problem. Poor wee Greig will be on babysitting duty. Maitland on the wing as discussed above. Seymour has done an okay job so far despite being in a side that was being utterly ravaged - so he keeps his place. If Dunbar is back, play him at 12 and Jones at 13. If not I'd say Horne at 12 Jones 13 with Grigg to bench. I still think we're missing a trick not bringing Scott back to the squad for his experience at centre in both winning and losing Scotland but hey ho. That's my penny's worth. Hogg, goes without saying - still our best back despite Saturday.

Laidlaw
Russell
Maitland
Dunbar/Horne
Jones
Seymour
Hogg

For the bench, possibly Berghan - depends how he's going in training I guess. For lack of an alternative, Scott Lawson, and Bhatti, for the same reasons. Denton comes on to the bench to batter the line later in the game. Ali Price is on the bench to make an impact (amends) in the last 10/20 minutes. Grigg if Horne is on the field, Horne if Dunbar is on the field, Jackson, I think he could provide decent enough cover at FH should Finn have another shocker - seriously anything is better than when he's on a bad game and wildcard - Kinghorn to spice it up a bit.

Lawson
Bhatti
Berghan
Gilchrist
Denton
Price
Horne/Grigg
Jackson/Kinghorn

Really think Jones has flattered to deceive.

Yes, scored some tries, but I get fed up seeing his shocking defensive lapses in every game

R!skysports wrote:Really think Jones has flattered to deceive.

Yes, scored some tries, but I get fed up seeing his shocking defensive lapses in every game

I'd say you have a valid point; however, I'd argue that our alternatives at 13 don't offer different or better to Jones.

Scott is probably the most in form alternative at the moment, and I am a big advocate of bringing him back in to the squad, but Huw has made magic at important points during games previously. There is no underestimating the importance of that to a team. Add in Scott's frailties we have two players on an approximate par with each other, Scott has the club form but Jones has the recent international form. Bennett has the X factor as shown previously but is he back to the same level just yet? Not so sure, he was out for a very long time. He also has the same defensive frailties as Jones.

We are struggling in the centres for the first time in about 3/4 years but I think this shows the reality of our 'depth' at centre. Good for a small rugby nation, poor otherwise.

NeilyBroon wrote:McGuigan I can live without after the last game. He didn't particularly add anything for me and is very much a poacher.

Maitland has a better rugby brain and is usually involved in creating opportunities during games.

For me I'd keep the front 5 the same, maybe Gilchrist for Toolis at a push but I don't think he was particularly terrible - I don't think the backrow got outplayed as much as people say - although DuPreez is definitely out.

Reid
McInally
Welsh
Toolis
Gray
Barclay
Watson
Wilson

The reason I'd put Wilson in is I feel he's very much our Sean Lamont player in the forwards - not the best BUT always gives 100% and gets the boys fired up well. He deserves his place for that if anything else.

Now to the backs. Sadly for lack of alternatives I'd have to keep Finn in, but maybe put Laidlaw in to put him in his place when he needs it. They've played together before so they know each other in that axis so that shouldn't be a problem. Poor wee Greig will be on babysitting duty. Maitland on the wing as discussed above. Seymour has done an okay job so far despite being in a side that was being utterly ravaged - so he keeps his place. If Dunbar is back, play him at 12 and Jones at 13. If not I'd say Horne at 12 Jones 13 with Grigg to bench. I still think we're missing a trick not bringing Scott back to the squad for his experience at centre in both winning and losing Scotland but hey ho. That's my penny's worth. Hogg, goes without saying - still our best back despite Saturday.

Laidlaw
Russell
Maitland
Dunbar/Horne
Jones
Seymour
Hogg

For the bench, possibly Berghan - depends how he's going in training I guess. For lack of an alternative, Scott Lawson, and Bhatti, for the same reasons. Denton comes on to the bench to batter the line later in the game. Ali Price is on the bench to make an impact (amends) in the last 10/20 minutes. Grigg if Horne is on the field, Horne if Dunbar is on the field, Jackson, I think he could provide decent enough cover at FH should Finn have another shocker - seriously anything is better than when he's on a bad game and wildcard - Kinghorn to spice it up a bit.

Lawson
Bhatti
Berghan
Gilchrist
Denton
Price
Horne/Grigg
Jackson/Kinghorn

Can't believe I am saying this but why no Lee Jones ? He is probably the form Scottish winger bar no-one right now. I want him to play for us on Friday v Dragons btw.

NeilyBroon wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Really think Jones has flattered to deceive.

Yes, scored some tries, but I get fed up seeing his shocking defensive lapses in every game

I'd say you have a valid point; however, I'd argue that our alternatives at 13 don't offer different or better to Jones.

Scott is probably the most in form alternative at the moment, and I am a big advocate of bringing him back in to the squad, but Huw has made magic at important points during games previously. There is no underestimating the importance of that to a team. Add in Scott's frailties we have two players on an approximate par with each other, Scott has the club form but Jones has the recent international form. Bennett has the X factor as shown previously but is he back to the same level just yet? Not so sure, he was out for a very long time. He also has the same defensive frailties as Jones.

We are struggling in the centres for the first time in about 3/4 years but I think this shows the reality of our 'depth' at centre. Good for a small rugby nation, poor otherwise.

Where do you get the Scott has the club form from? He has hardly played this season, due to injury and falling out of favour at Gloucester. His only recent games have been in the AWC, hardly the preparation for an international match.

Don't get me wrong, Matt Scott is a decent player, but he needs to be playing regular good rugby before he comes back into the squad. It does not look like that will happen until, if, as predicted, he comes back to Edinburgh next season. Until then, there are lots of players ahead of him in the centre queue.

Hopefully Dunbar will be fit this time around and we can go with a Dunbar Jones combo, which does seem to work quite well. If Dunbar not fit then it will have to be Horne. We actually looked a lot better once he came on this Saturday in any case.

Bennett I suspect may get another run out with Edinburgh this weekend to continue to make his case, he probably needs it as well, still looked pretty rusty in his games so far.

He's been unlucky with injury, I wouldn't say fallen out of favour. The appearances he has made have been pretty good this season.

NeilyBroon wrote:He's been unlucky with injury, I wouldn't say fallen out of favour. The appearances he has made have been pretty good this season.

They are not renewing his contract, so he is probably not flavour of the month down there.

To be fair to him, he got injured just at the time the new coach was settling in and they began a bit of a renaissance. All the stuff he did last year with a different boss, soon gets forgotten. The brutal nature of professional sport I'm afraid.

I am sure that he will come back to Edinburgh a better player than the one that left and that will hopefully be to his and the clubs benefit.

R!skysports wrote:Really think Jones has flattered to deceive.

Yes, scored some tries, but I get fed up seeing his shocking defensive lapses in every game

He did hold up welshplayers over the line twice

Dave Denton is Worcester player of the month for the second month in a row.

He is playing well down there. He must be very close to being picked in the Scotland team, we will find out later on I guess.

TJ wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Really think Jones has flattered to deceive.

Yes, scored some tries, but I get fed up seeing his shocking defensive lapses in every game

He did hold up welshplayers over the line twice

I think he's been doing ok. The England game aside, he's not done much wrong and tends to make up for any issues by setting up or scoring tries.

He was on a hiding to nothing against Wales as the players either side of him had absolute mares! As an example, Russell came flying out of the line for the 2nd try which left the whole backline exposed.

If I was making the selection this week, Russell would be told he's got to sort his head but we can't drop him as there is no replacement. Ali Price would get the start again but told that he needs to have far more composure or he's hooked at halftime and risks not bring dropped for the rest of the tournament. Chris Harris needs to be dropped, simple as! If Dunbar is fit then he goes to 12 with Jones moving to 13, if Dunbar's not fit then Mark Bennett comes into 13.

tigertattie wrote:

TJ wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Really think Jones has flattered to deceive.

Yes, scored some tries, but I get fed up seeing his shocking defensive lapses in every game

He did hold up welshplayers over the line twice

I think he's been doing ok. The England game aside, he's not done much wrong and tends to make up for any issues by setting up or scoring tries.

He was on a hiding to nothing against Wales as the players either side of him had absolute mares! As an example, Russell came flying out of the line for the 2nd try which left the whole backline exposed.

If I was making the selection this week, Russell would be told he's got to sort his head but we can't drop him as there is no replacement. Ali Price would get the start again but told that he needs to have far more composure or he's hooked at halftime and risks not bring dropped for the rest of the tournament. Chris Harris needs to be dropped, simple as! If Dunbar is fit then he goes to 12 with Jones moving to 13, if Dunbar's not fit then Mark Bennett comes into 13.

Of all the players who did not much wrong, Harris is up there, he got the ball chucked at his face and feet pretty much all day by Jones constantly shipping on hospital passes. Jones needs to never play 12 again as opposed to dropping Harris entirely.

I tend to agree that Harris had the rough end of the stick in that game and was not the most culpable of the Scottish players by a country mile.

I think for his own sanity though, he probably need to be stepped down for this one. That is not to say he won't get another shot in the future, though I am not sure he is as good as Jones or Bennett on merit if they are both fit.

Harris was utter garbage.

I saw one pass that went to him a head height and I think that as it was replayed in slow mo in the montage that it's stuck in folks memory.

I'm no centre but I saw Harris out of position on many an occasion, he dropped at least two easy passes and he just didn't look like he was up to speed.

At least Du Preez is gone TF !

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:At least Du Preez is gone TF !

only to be replaced by perhaps the most ineffective No 8 Scotland has produced since David Callam

I'm not sure if Harris is int quality but he's hardly been helped by the ineptitude of your halfbacks. He was given zero good ball to use, what's the guy to do?

His defence is rock solid for Falcons.

Russell is such a flaky standoff, he gets charged down constantly and throws hospital passes regularly. He's magic on form but not someone to back when backs against the wall.

Du Preez had probably the worst game I have ever seen anyone have in a Scotland jersey ever, in any position. Utter crap or cra* as this childish forum probably requires. Not alone either Tom English , Kevin Ferrie , Mark Palmer , Planet Rugby all thought similarly as did quite a few on here.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Du Preez had probably the worst game I have ever seen anyone have in a Scotland jersey ever, in any position.      Utter crap or cra* as this childish forum probably requires.     Not alone either Tom English , Kevin Ferrie , Mark Palmer , Planet Rugby all thought similarly as did quite a few on here.  

Du Preez was rubbish, but however you slice it 14 points in the first half came gift wrapped from Ali Price.

Du Preez was one of the toonbola picks that just didn't work

CDP of the vintage of his first two seasons at Edinburgh would have been a fantastic international player.

Unfortunately for him, that horrific ankle injury, which nearly cost him his career, has robbed him of his explosive power that could take him through tackles, which was his great strength. The CDP of today's vintage is ponderous by comparison and does not strike fear into good international opposition.

I would be surprised if we see him in a Scotland shirt again and that is a shame for what might have been.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Du Preez had probably the worst game I have ever seen anyone have in a Scotland jersey ever, in any position.      Utter crap or cra* as this childish forum probably requires.     Not alone either Tom English , Kevin Ferrie , Mark Palmer , Planet Rugby all thought similarly as did quite a few on here.  

Funniest line (of the acerbic kind) I've heard in a long time on this site.

So we need two more wins to havea successful 6N ( 3 wins must be the minimum to be considered successful) We really should beat Italy even away so England at home or Ireland away - which is it to be ;-)

So seems gilcrist is starting to grow into the role

Aye - no stupid penalties either. Best I have ever seen him play

Jim Hamilton tweeted before the game that he would rather we went behind and had to dig deep to get a win, than if we ended up with a big win like against Aus. I would probably agree with that, as that was the mental test that we really needed.

And indeed that is what we got - 10-0 down early on, flashbacks to the weekend previous, we could have easily disintegrated again. Instead we managed to find a way to get some points on the board and work out a game plan that got us the win. I also think it is a good thing that it wasn't a perfect performance by any means, as it keeps the players grounded ahead of the England game (although I suspect the Wales game was enough to do that for the whole tournament anyway.)

For me there are some key selection decisions for the England game:

Ritchie Gray - if he is fit enough to play for Toulouse next weekend he will surely come into consideration or the England game. IMO Gilchrist and Jonny deserve to stay as starters, but if Richie is fit I would probably have him on the bench for some much needed impact against a big set of English forwards. Harsh on Toolis maybe, but we're going to need all the grunt we can get.

John Barclay - he was quiet last week and had another quiet performance yesterday (I barely noticed he was playing). With the return of Laidlaw we don't necessarily need him as captain. Wilson and Watson deserve to keep their places, so do we bring in Denton for extra go forward and physicality against the English? IMO I think we stick with Barclay as A) I like the impact Denton brings off the bench and B) Barclay needs to be told he has to fight for his place and hope we get a reaction.

Finn Russell

What do we do with Finn?? Horribly short of confidence, but we have no real backup at 10. IMO we need to stick with him but take some of the pressure off - let Hogg take kicks to touch and Laidlaw to take more control of exits. If Horne plays make use of Horne's boot as well. If Russell can just be left to run the backline and get the team moving he has one thing to focus on. Townsend has a tough job to do over the next two weeks though as Russell in full flight could be the difference between winning and losing against England.

Alex Dunbar - again if he returns for Glasgow this weekend he will surely be in the mix for selection. IMO this will be Townsend's toughest call as it would be a big risk to throw him straight in, plus Horne played well yesterday. With Farrell and JJ in midfield for England we don't have big runners to worry about, but Dunbar adds an extra dimension of physicality in attack and defence that we haven't had lately. If Dunbar gets through 80 minutes this weekend I would pick him.

So my team for England assuming Gray and Dunbar are fit:

1 Reid
2 McInally
3 Berghan
4 Gilchrist
5 Gray
6 Barclay
7 Watson
8 Wilson

9 Laidlaw
10 Russell
11 Maitland
12 Dunbar
13 Jones
14 Seymour
15 Hogg

Subs - Bhattie, Lawson, Welsh, Gray, Denton, Price, Horne, Kinghorne

Bhattie, Gray and Denton adding huge impact off the bench, and Horne in a 'in case of Russell meltdown break glass' capacity.

BigGee wrote:Dave Denton is Worcester player of the month for the second month in a row.

Isn't that a bit like being voted the best spear maker in Luxembourg?

They just beat Exeter away at the weekend - Solomons has got them in good shape lately.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Jim Hamilton tweeted before the game that he would rather we went behind and had to dig deep to get a win, than if we ended up with a big win like against Aus. I would probably agree with that, as that was the mental test that we really needed.

I closed my eye....
Drew back the curtain,
To see for certain
What I thought I knew.
Far, far away,
Someone was weeping,
But the world was sleeping
Any win will do......

Oh my god, now the Scotland France match thread is littered with 'interested parties' telling us that Scotland still really aren't any good and we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. Bores the living hole off me. These boards are far more joyless and hard work than they used to be, that's for sure.

George Carlin wrote:Oh my god, now the Scotland France match thread is littered with 'interested parties' telling us that Scotland still really aren't any good and we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. Bores the living hole off me. These boards are far more joyless and hard work than they used to be, that's for sure.

I don't think we are the best thing since sliced bread.
The win against France did nothing to change that, equally the trouncing down in Cardiff didn't change that thought either.
We didn't all of a sudden become a bad team because we lost to Wales, but the cathartic performance at Murrayfield yesterday doesn't make us world beaters. As far as I can see, pretty much every Scottish poster has said as much.

I don't know why people feel the need to come onto the match thread and tell posters who watch Scotland play and the club teams play, that our defence isn't up to scratch or that "Hogg is a defensive liablity". In other news "it rains a lot in Scotland". Basically you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to point out some of these things.

Scotland are playing some good stuff, but like I said defence is something that can always be worked on, but I'd despair if we went looking for a bunch of Lamont, Morrison and Andy Henderson style lumps to have a strong defense and sacrifice attacking flair again.

Now help me out here, when we shipped 60 points (was it 60 points?) at Twickenham it was due to England noticing a flaw in our defensive system and exploiting it, because from memory we did ok in the run up to the England game, conceding only 6 tries (roughly 2 a game) and having played Ireland, France and Wales, that's not too bad in the 6N. Against England at twickers the defensive system was worked out and despite having a very maksehift backline that saw poor Duncy Weir having to compete with Watson, Daly and Brown for all the high balls he was getting punted at him, we didn't do as badly as we might have done. That day didn't go well. However with our defense being a bit all over the place I'm not that bothered. We were all over the place against Samoa and still managed to tighten it up for NZ. At least this way leaking tries from everywhere EJ can't unlock our defensive system because from the looks of it we don't have one!!!

People still forget this is Toonie's first 6N in charge. We are still very much work in progress.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Oh my god, now the Scotland France match thread is littered with 'interested parties' telling us that Scotland still really aren't any good and we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. Bores the living hole off me. These boards are far more joyless and hard work than they used to be, that's for sure.

I don't think we are the best thing since sliced bread.
The win against France did nothing to change that, equally the trouncing down in Cardiff didn't change that thought either.
We didn't all of a sudden become a bad team because we lost to Wales, but the cathartic performance at Murrayfield yesterday doesn't make us world beaters. As far as I can see, pretty much every Scottish poster has said as much.

I don't know why people feel the need to come onto the match thread and tell posters who watch Scotland play and the club teams play, that our defence isn't up to scratch or that "Hogg is a defensive liablity". In other news "it rains a lot in Scotland". Basically you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to point out some of these things.

Scotland are playing some good stuff, but like I said defence is something that can always be worked on, but I'd despair if we went looking for a bunch of Lamont, Morrison and Andy Henderson style lumps to have a strong defense and sacrifice attacking flair again.

Now help me out here, when we shipped 60 points (was it 60 points?) at Twickenham it was due to England noticing a flaw in our defensive system and exploiting it, because from memory we did ok in the run up to the England game, conceding only 6 tries (roughly 2 a game) and having played Ireland, France and Wales, that's not too bad in the 6N. Against England at twickers the defensive system was worked out and despite having a very maksehift backline that saw poor Duncy Weir having to compete with Watson, Daly and Brown for all the high balls he was getting punted at him, we didn't do as badly as we might have done. That day didn't go well. However with our defense being a bit all over the place I'm not that bothered. We were all over the place against Samoa and still managed to tighten it up for NZ. At least this way leaking tries from everywhere EJ can't unlock our defensive system because from the looks of it we don't have one!!!  

People still forget this is Toonie's first 6N in charge. We are still very much work in progress.

Work in progress, yes though we arguably have had the systems in place for a good while now. Not a huge amount has changed since Cotter, but a lot of the grit that he was beginning to instill seems to be falling flat, and in the case against Wales - going backwards.

Great as it is to have the home victories under our belt from last year and now this year, I'd like to see us grind out a win against a team that isn't fatigued before they're even on the pitch (France), or haven't had a red card/can't be arsed to show up a la Australia.

For me France was a must-win, not a could-win, but it's the could-wins we should be targeting and setting our standards higher.  

England is a good opportunity to show some mettle again and whilst there's no shame in losing to number 2 in the world, there is no doubt in my mind that we could inch it based on past performances. But competition rugby is another step up from test rugby. It'll be five times harder than NZ was in the Autumn IMO. Based on the first 3 halves of rugby in the 6Ns I'm not confident in how Toony gets his players up for the game.

Say what you want but killing rabbits with uncle Vern in the pyranees clearly had a positive impact on the fighting mentality of the team. A mentality I've not seen for a while.

RR and others

My English perspective on Scotland at the moment is that they are a bit like the England ODI cricket team - capable of putting in high class performances perhaps 4 games in 5, but then having the ability to throw is a right stinker. Yesterday's performance will have done your guys a lot of good mentally - had to cope with another slow start but retained discipline and concentration (that went AWOL against Wales), and ground out the win that in the end was well deserved against a somewhat falling apart France.

It will be interesting to see how you cope with England this year - after all, we're likely to play a very similar back line to the one that cut through your defensive line so often last year (noting that while you ended with a very make-shift back line, the problems were apparent even before the injuries); the only likely change is Care for Youngs. OK, so we are unlikely to have Hughes at 8, who provided a useful decoy, but Simmonds (if fit) is likely to cause you some different problems with his pace off the mark - in fact, I'm looking forward to seeing how he gets on against Hamish Watson.

I think so far England have won their two games in 2nd and 3rd gear really, despite what the scoreboard suggested on Saturday (awkward conditions, so a day to play mainly without the ball, and in the main we held Wales at arm's length). I suspect the intensity will go up a notch at Murrayfield, so it will be a good test for where you guys really are at present.

dummy_half wrote:RR and others

My English perspective on Scotland at the moment is that they are a bit like the England ODI cricket team - capable of putting in high class performances perhaps 4 games in 5, but then having the ability to throw is a right stinker. Yesterday's performance will have done your guys a lot of good mentally - had to cope with another slow start but retained discipline and concentration (that went AWOL against Wales), and ground out the win that in the end was well deserved against a somewhat falling apart France.

It will be interesting to see how you cope with England this year - after all, we're likely to play a very similar back line to the one that cut through your defensive line so often last year (noting that while you ended with a very make-shift back line, the problems were apparent even before the injuries); the only likely change is Care for Youngs. OK, so we are unlikely to have Hughes at 8, who provided a useful decoy, but Simmonds (if fit) is likely to cause you some different problems with his pace off the mark - in fact, I'm looking forward to seeing how he gets on against Hamish Watson.

I think so far England have won their two games in 2nd and 3rd gear really, despite what the scoreboard suggested on Saturday (awkward conditions, so a day to play mainly without the ball, and in the main we held Wales at arm's length). I suspect the intensity will go up a notch at Murrayfield, so it will be a good test for where you guys really are at present.

I agree with both statements in bold. This will be the greatest challenge Scotland have faced at Murrayfield since England last came. Sure we did well against the All Blacks but that was on a tide of emotion for Doddie etc.

We need possession to stand a chance in this game, because I do feel England will cut us up when they have the ball, unless our defense has a metamorphosis. I think we will have a fighting chance at the breakdown too, however I'd seriously consider starting Denton.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

dummy_half wrote:RR and others

My English perspective on Scotland at the moment is that they are a bit like the England ODI cricket team - capable of putting in high class performances perhaps 4 games in 5, but then having the ability to throw is a right stinker. Yesterday's performance will have done your guys a lot of good mentally - had to cope with another slow start but retained discipline and concentration (that went AWOL against Wales), and ground out the win that in the end was well deserved against a somewhat falling apart France.

It will be interesting to see how you cope with England this year - after all, we're likely to play a very similar back line to the one that cut through your defensive line so often last year (noting that while you ended with a very make-shift back line, the problems were apparent even before the injuries); the only likely change is Care for Youngs. OK, so we are unlikely to have Hughes at 8, who provided a useful decoy, but Simmonds (if fit) is likely to cause you some different problems with his pace off the mark - in fact, I'm looking forward to seeing how he gets on against Hamish Watson.

I think so far England have won their two games in 2nd and 3rd gear really, despite what the scoreboard suggested on Saturday (awkward conditions, so a day to play mainly without the ball, and in the main we held Wales at arm's length). I suspect the intensity will go up a notch at Murrayfield, so it will be a good test for where you guys really are at present.

I agree with both statements in bold. This will be the greatest challenge Scotland have faced at Murrayfield since England last came. Sure we did well against the All Blacks but that was on a tide of emotion for Doddie etc.

We need possession to stand a chance in this game, because I do feel England will cut us up when they have the ball, unless our defense has a metamorphosis. I think we will have a fighting chance at the breakdown too, however I'd seriously consider starting Denton.

You'll get possession, but we like our aggressive defense, so you had better work out what you need to do with the ball quickly. If Russell is playing he had better be quick because the alternative probably involves Underhill if he's lucky, Lawes if he isn't

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Oh my god, now the Scotland France match thread is littered with 'interested parties' telling us that Scotland still really aren't any good and we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. Bores the living hole off me. These boards are far more joyless and hard work than they used to be, that's for sure.

I don't think we are the best thing since sliced bread.
The win against France did nothing to change that, equally the trouncing down in Cardiff didn't change that thought either.
We didn't all of a sudden become a bad team because we lost to Wales, but the cathartic performance at Murrayfield yesterday doesn't make us world beaters. As far as I can see, pretty much every Scottish poster has said as much.

I don't know why people feel the need to come onto the match thread and tell posters who watch Scotland play and the club teams play, that our defence isn't up to scratch or that "Hogg is a defensive liablity". In other news "it rains a lot in Scotland". Basically you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to point out some of these things.

.

I don't want to state the obvious but a) it's a rugby discussion form and Scotland just played a game of rugby, and b) this happens to nearly every nation after every game. For how many years did posters tell England that they were a boring 10 man rugby team, and detail ways in which they could play better instead? How many times have you seen posters post about Gatland's tactics and the whole Warrenball debate? How often have we seen the discussion about 'which France will turn up' and discussions about their structures and domestic rugby woes? The answer to all of those question is 'sh*t loads', and often its from posters whose team was not playing. At least they're talking about you! Could be worse - could be Italian and no one even bothers to discuss their defensive frailties or forward play any more! But to take offence at rugby forum users commenting on 'your' thread is a bit.... weak?! Sounds like you want special treatment for Scotland threads! Which you might get with the Scottish mods, but still.....

No what we want Oracle is for folk like you to stop with the continual trolling on every thread.

Yo0u deliberately start arguments simply to gain attention and derail threads and then complain you are hard done by.

George Carlin wrote:Oh my god, now the Scotland France match thread is littered with 'interested parties' telling us that Scotland still really aren't any good and we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. Bores the living hole off me. These boards are far more joyless and hard work than they used to be, that's for sure.

Ban the offenders then - they have driven away loads of good posters and continue to wreck threas for fun

a couple just need warnings, a couple need to be gone for good. I have several blocked but I can still see their work in ruining threads making it all into arguements about them

TJ wrote:No what we want Oracle is for folk like you to stop with the continual trolling on every thread.

Yo0u deliberately start arguments simply to gain attention and derail threads and then complain you are hard done by.  

TJ, please, please, PLEASE stop accusing everyone of trolling. This does as much to detail threads as anything else. I am not trolling. We get that, for some reason, you don't like others talking about Scotland, but it is not always trolling.

Oracle - I do not think you are in the same league as Gwlad and Mikey etc but sometimes you step over the line.

Its not about stopping discussion - you have also made some good points but the posting of deliberately inflammatory statements is not helpful

so I apologise for tarring you with the same brush as the real trolls. I just get so frustrated with them derailing threads constantly.

OK?

Who are the trolls TJ ?

Are they only Welsh ?

LordDowlais wrote:Who are the trolls TJ ?

Are they only Welsh ?

Trolls tend to be in the eye of the beholder. Some tend to see more trolls than others.

The worst troll was of course NZ, or anglo NZ, unless he was consistently lying about that as well as everything else.

TJ wrote:Oracle - I do not think you are in the same league as Gwlad and Mikey etc but sometimes you step over the line.  

Its not about stopping discussion - you have also made some good points but the posting of deliberately inflammatory statements is not helpful

so I apologise for tarring you with the same brush as the real trolls.  I just get so frustrated with them derailing threads constantly.

OK?

Thanks TJ.

It was a good away win on Sunday. The trams were all singing French folk songs and the stadium was calling the blue forward. Scotland did well in a relatively hostile atmosphere. Thankfully at the hour mark, the Scottish chants started getting into it. Really need to work on adding to the repertoire. Gave my gf stick for the amount of songs that Wales play before matches...then the band comes on to play the Proclaimers

The front row held its own and played exceptionally well. Only Reid got hooked and I feel disappointed for Welsh who deserved a chance to get on (one of the few to do ok last weekend). Bhatti is definitely the weaker scrummager so will have to bench until Cole comes off.

Second row worked well in tandem. Think Toolis will have to go back to the drawing board barring injury. Cummings and Swinson will be back before long so really needs to finish his season positively. R Gray to come onto the bench. Gilchrist has earned his slot for England.

The back row did ok (not watched the game on TV) and Denton added real impetus when he came on. Barclay-Watson have not generated enough turnovers to justify keeping them if Wilson is the one providing the bite in the pack. Barclay is captain so Watson may need to bench unless we see Laidlaw (or Gray, Gilchrist, Wilson) as captain. His form is now in question and it is a serious amount of time since we could say that a player of his level could be dropped for better options.

SH's played well. Laidlaw deserved the praise coming his way. His delivery seems faster and his speed at rucks has improved. Playing at Clermont has improved him. Price looked better as well though it was rare for him to look so poor last week.

Russell got a kick in the backside and will have to earn his spot in training. Horne has earned a spot and Dunbar/Taylor will be after a chance.

Horne-Jones worked effectively defensively and were good going forward. Jones is a 13. He has to work harder on his tackling before we try him at 12 again.

Seymour and Maitland were good. Hogg showed how good he is in the air. That missed tackle was maybe an effort to do too much. Just need to make the tackle and hope they fail to execute the offload.

Lawson, Welsh, Harris and Kinghorn were not trusted to up the intensity and I am not sure who you would take off to get them on. Welsh probably has the strongest case. Harris likely should be dropped to Newcastle to play and if Dunbar or Taylor are back, he is not in the squad. Not sure if Kinghorn can stay at sub to debut against England. If McGuigan is back, he would be ideal.

Nel and Fagerson are back training with the Scotland squad - no mention on when they will be ready to play.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Nel and Fagerson are back training with the Scotland squad - no mention on when they will be ready to play.

Good that they are nearly fit, but hard to see either coming straight back in without a game under their belt. Maybe they will get a club game in next weekend and then be ready for the last two rounds.

The way Berghan played last week though, they will be playing for a bench spot at the moment.

Head coach Gregor Townsend today named a revised Scotland squad for the NatWest 6 Nations as the group reconvened ahead of this Saturday’s Round 3 Test against England at BT Murrayfield (kick-off 4.45pm) - live on BBC.

Harlequins wing Tim Visser and Gloucester centre Matt Scott are the only backs to be added to the squad, having last featured on the 2017 summer tour against Fiji and Australia respectively.

The incoming forward quartet include tight head prop Willem Nel (who returns from the broken arm he sustained against Samoa in the Autumn Tests), uncapped Glasgow Warriors hooker James Malcolm, Sale Sharks back-row Josh Strauss and Glasgow Warriors lock Tim Swinson, who returned from a hand injury to feature in his club’s five-try win over Cheetahs on Friday night.

The new additions replace Saracens centre Duncan Taylor (head) and Toulouse lock Richie Gray (calf), who are yet to recover sufficiently to join the squad in camp, as well as Magnus Bradbury, Nathan Fowles, Murray McCallum (Edinburgh Rugby) and D’arcy Rae (Glasgow Warriors), who drop out of the squad.

Lee Jones (Glasgow Warriors) and Neil Cochrane (Edinburgh Rugby) will remain with their clubs to complete the graduated return to play protocols after sustaining head injuries at the weekend.

Uncapped Edinburgh Rugby duo Charlie Shiel (scrum-half) and Darcy Graham (full-back / wing) are also invited to train with the squad on Monday and Tuesday.



Scotland NatWest 6 Nations squad

BACKS (16)
Mark Bennett (Edinburgh Rugby) – 20 caps
Nick Grigg (Glasgow Warriors) – 1 cap
Chris Harris (Newcastle Falcons) – 2 caps
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 57 caps
Pete Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 30 caps
Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) – 32 caps
Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 13 caps
Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
Greig Laidlaw (ASM Clermont Auvergne) – 60 caps
Sean Maitland (Saracens) – 31 caps
Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 13 caps
Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps
Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps
Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 41 caps
Matt Scott (Gloucester) – 39 caps
Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 33 caps

FORWARDS (20)
John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 68 caps
Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) – 5 caps
David Denton (Worcester Warriors) – 36 caps
Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) – 20 caps
Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 40 caps
Luke Hamilton (Leicester Tigers) – 1 cap
Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors) – 20 caps
Scott Lawson (Newcastle Falcons) – 47 caps
James Malcolm (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped
Stuart McInally (Edinburgh Rugby) – 14 caps
Willem Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) – 19 caps
Gordon Reid (London Irish) – 29 caps
Josh Strauss (Sale Sharks) – 14 caps
Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 33 caps
Ben Toolis (Edinburgh Rugby) – 9 caps
Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 17 caps
Jon Welsh (Newcastle Falcons) – 12 caps
Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps