Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

First topic message reminder :

2017 Autumn Test Results

Scotland 44 - Samoa 38

Tries - Hogg, Jones, McInally (2), Dunbar, Horne

Scotland 17 - New Zealand 22

Tries - J Gray, Jones

Scotland 53 - Australia 24

McGuigan (2), Price, Maitland, J Gray, Jones, Barclay, McInally


6N fixtures

Wales V Scotland
Scotland V France

Scotland V England

Ireland V Scotland
Italy V Scotland

Ok now I've calmed down and only feel mildly upset at yesterday's performance I feel I can comment again.

I'd go as far as to say that was worse than Twickenham last year. We can do better with those players and they know it.

For me it highlighted three things.

I said Harris would have to have at least a solid game, for me he's played himself out of selection with that performance. It was basically Morrison with the hands of De Luca. How vital are our good centres? Very. I'd bring in Scott to the squad, he's played 13 at Gloucester very well when I've watched him and he's back from injury. Hoping taylor and Dunbar are back next week though.

Townsend needs a plan B. This wasn't a pro14 visit to parc y scarlets. When the plan wasn't working we needed to adapt, which brings me on to Russell.

We need depth at fly half. We can't keep depending on one player. I think he heard his hype, and was desperate to prove a point to Gatland and much to the detriment to the rest of the team. The problem is who? Is it worth getting Hastings regularly training with Scotland? Is there any decent fly halves with a Scottish granny warming the Crusaders bench?

I don't think 3 wins is out of the question just yet. It is if we continue like that. I hope it's given both players and coach a big reality check.

Brush it off start again.

NeilyBroon wrote:
I'd go as far as to say that was worse than Twickenham last year. We can do better with those players and they know it.

I think if we list the top 3 greatest 6N disappointments (and there is a long shortlist) it would be yesterday, last year at Twickenham and that home game against Italy with the 3 interceptions.

And now I've just made myself even more miserable thinking about all the horror shows over the years!

From the updates last week, it seems that Taylor won't be fit. He was sent back to Sarries for the week, nest case scenario for him is the England game and even then, he will hardly have played all season.

Dunbar was training last week, just not taking contact, so hopefully he will be ready to go this time around.

If neither of them, then it has to be Horne, who in fairness, does not usually let us down at 12.

There may be a few changes to the squad before the England game. Strauss played for Sale yesterday in the AWC and if he gets another game next weekend, should be fit to go. Matt Scott is another who has been playing in the AWC for Gloucester. If Taylor stays on the sick list, then surely he comes in.

I suppose the other option at 8 next weekend would be Bradbury, who no one is mentioning. Not been on best form this season, for well documented reasons, but has loads of potential. I think we do need to start looking past CDP though. Maybe it is time for a Tooniesque left field selection. If not to start, then he might be a decent impact player to come on and carry hard towards the end.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:
I'd go as far as to say that was worse than Twickenham last year. We can do better with those players and they know it.

I think if we list the top 3 greatest 6N disappointments (and there is a long shortlist) it would be yesterday, last year at Twickenham and that home game against Italy with the 3 interceptions.

And now I've just made myself even more miserable thinking about all the horror shows over the years!

I could not even begin to list them!

Matt Scott came off the bench last week and played 80 minutes on Friday. Would be a big ask for him to get straight back to international speed after so long injured.

I suppose you're right about Horne at 12 - pushes Jones (who has been rank average since the AIs btw) back to his best position. Horne at 12 wouldn't give me much more comfort, but we can at least be a bit more organised in attack and defence with him there (even if he's very lightweight).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42937248

Tom English does not hold back!

Toonie and the Scotland players need to read this!

They were just smashing Scotland on 5 Live. Basically saying Gatland is vindicated in not picking players who can't win big games away from home.

French injuries update :
- Jalibert out for the remaining of the tournament
- DuPont out for the remaining of the season!
- Gourdon out for Scotland
- Chavancy uncertain
-Parra still unfit (shame as it would have been nice to see against his teammate)

Re Harris.

I am not saying he is the answer for anything really. But from what I could remember it's hard to look good when every time you are getting smashed the moment you get the ball. It might be worth looking at who was giving the hospital passes too.

BigGee wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42937248

Tom English does not hold back!

Toonie and the Scotland players need to read this!

He was scathing after Samoa too. Are we the new France? Where you don't know what Scotland is going to turn up

BigGee wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42937248

Tom English does not hold back!

Toonie and the Scotland players need to read this!

I actually think that this went too far the other way.

We don't really know where this leaves the Scotland team at the moment and we won't know until the weekend.

It was all doom and gloom after getting horsed by England last year. We finished that tournament well and can do again.

Townsend has had his first big lesson and will respond to it I'm sure.

I would like to say that I expected better from Jones and Gatland than 'small man' sarcasm about a new coach and an improving team. However, what did I really expect? Professional sledgers and children.

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42937248

Tom English does not hold back!

Toonie and the Scotland players need to read this!

I actually think that this went too far the other way.

We don't really know where this leaves the Scotland team at the moment and we won't know until the weekend.

It was all doom and gloom after getting horsed by England last year. We finished that tournament well and can do again.

Townsend has had his first big lesson and will respond to it I'm sure.

I would like to say that I expected better from Jones and Gatland than 'small man' sarcasm about a new coach and an improving team. However, what did I really expect? Professional sledgers and children.

Gatland and Jones behave like dicks who knew???

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42937248

Tom English does not hold back!

Toonie and the Scotland players need to read this!

I actually think that this went too far the other way.

We don't really know where this leaves the Scotland team at the moment and we won't know until the weekend.

It was all doom and gloom after getting horsed by England last year. We finished that tournament well and can do again.

Townsend has had his first big lesson and will respond to it I'm sure.

I would like to say that I expected better from Jones and Gatland than 'small man' sarcasm about a new coach and an improving team. However, what did I really expect? Professional sledgers and children.

Gatland and Jones behave like dicks who knew???

Unfortunately, at the end of the day they were right though and performances like that from Scotland will just vindicate their choice of words. There is only really one way to answer it and that is in a performance.

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42937248

Tom English does not hold back!

Toonie and the Scotland players need to read this!

I actually think that this went too far the other way.

We don't really know where this leaves the Scotland team at the moment and we won't know until the weekend.

It was all doom and gloom after getting horsed by England last year. We finished that tournament well and can do again.

Townsend has had his first big lesson and will respond to it I'm sure.

I would like to say that I expected better from Jones and Gatland than 'small man' sarcasm about a new coach and an improving team. However, what did I really expect? Professional sledgers and children.

Gatland and Jones behave like dicks who knew???

Unfortunately, at the end of the day they were right though and performances like that from Scotland will just vindicate their choice of words. There is only really one way to answer it and that is in a performance.

Yesterday was a huge disappointment, but if it was a blip we'll know next weekend. I wonder if we turn over the rest of out opponents we won't have turned a corner?

It's the mental frailties that worry me more. Errors can happen at any time, it was the psychological impact that worried me more.

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42937248

Tom English does not hold back!

Toonie and the Scotland players need to read this!

I actually think that this went too far the other way.

We don't really know where this leaves the Scotland team at the moment and we won't know until the weekend.

It was all doom and gloom after getting horsed by England last year. We finished that tournament well and can do again.

Townsend has had his first big lesson and will respond to it I'm sure.

I would like to say that I expected better from Jones and Gatland than 'small man' sarcasm about a new coach and an improving team. However, what did I really expect? Professional sledgers and children.

Gatland and Jones behave like dicks who knew???

Unfortunately, at the end of the day they were right though and performances like that from Scotland will just vindicate their choice of words. There is only really one way to answer it and that is in a performance.

No, I don't agree actually. Being snide is being snide - it doesn't matter to me how a team performs in response to it. Being graceless makes you a tw@t - I don't care how good the people who made the comments are at their day jobs. That's not what I teach my kids.

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42937248

Tom English does not hold back!

Toonie and the Scotland players need to read this!

I actually think that this went too far the other way.

We don't really know where this leaves the Scotland team at the moment and we won't know until the weekend.

It was all doom and gloom after getting horsed by England last year. We finished that tournament well and can do again.

Townsend has had his first big lesson and will respond to it I'm sure.

I would like to say that I expected better from Jones and Gatland than 'small man' sarcasm about a new coach and an improving team. However, what did I really expect? Professional sledgers and children.

Gatland and Jones behave like dicks who knew???

Unfortunately, at the end of the day they were right though and performances like that from Scotland will just vindicate their choice of words. There is only really one way to answer it and that is in a performance.

No, I don't agree actually. Being snide is being snide - it doesn't matter to me how a team performs in response to it. Being graceless makes you a tw@t - I don't care how good the people who made the comments are at their day jobs. That's not what I teach my kids.

I did not say they were not snide or graceless. They were.

They were right however in their insinuation that Scotland flatter to deceive.

Fundamentally they don't respect Scotland and when we play like that, you would wonder why they should!

BigGee wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42937248

Tom English does not hold back!

Toonie and the Scotland players need to read this!

I actually think that this went too far the other way.

We don't really know where this leaves the Scotland team at the moment and we won't know until the weekend.

It was all doom and gloom after getting horsed by England last year. We finished that tournament well and can do again.

Townsend has had his first big lesson and will respond to it I'm sure.

I would like to say that I expected better from Jones and Gatland than 'small man' sarcasm about a new coach and an improving team. However, what did I really expect? Professional sledgers and children.

Gatland and Jones behave like dicks who knew???

Unfortunately, at the end of the day they were right though and performances like that from Scotland will just vindicate their choice of words. There is only really one way to answer it and that is in a performance.

No, I don't agree actually. Being snide is being snide - it doesn't matter to me how a team performs in response to it. Being graceless makes you a tw@t - I don't care how good the people who made the comments are at their day jobs. That's not what I teach my kids.

I did not say they were not snide or graceless. They were.

They were right however in their insinuation that Scotland flatter to deceive.

Fundamentally they don't respect Scotland and when we play like that, you would wonder why they should!

Just read on Twitter that apparently Sir Clive has criticised Finn Russell for smiling and looking happy during the anthems yesterday...

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Just read on Twitter that apparently Sir Clive has criticised Finn Russell for smiling and looking happy during the anthems yesterday...

Clive, always wanting you to know he looks at everything. But in a way I agree with him about 'poker face' time at Anthems. I kind of always got the instinct about how Ireland were going to play in the past when BOD was still playing. I'd look at his face during the anthems. Now I always knew he'd give it his all - but on some special occasions I knew he was going to walk through walls to get the result.
I do think you have to be in a zone from the beginning - especially when meeting such a dangerous side as Wales. I don't know why he smiled, didn't see it; but in theory, I'd agree with Clive.

SecretFly wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Just read on Twitter that apparently Sir Clive has criticised Finn Russell for smiling and looking happy during the anthems yesterday...

Clive, always wanting you to know he looks at everything.  But in a way I agree with him about 'poker face' time at Anthems.  I kind of always got the instinct about how Ireland were going to play in the past when BOD was still playing.  I'd look at his face during the anthems.  Now I always knew he'd give it his all - but on some special occasions I knew he was going to walk through walls to get the result.  
I do think you have to be in a zone from the beginning - especially when meeting such a dangerous side as Wales.  I don't know why he smiled, didn't see it; but in theory, I'd agree with Clive.

To be fair Finn has always been like that - when he was doing kicking practice in his warmups he used to dance while listening to music!

Problem is, like wearing bright yellow boots you get away with it when you put a good performance - you look pretty stupid when you play like Finn did yesterday.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42937248

Tom English does not hold back!

Toonie and the Scotland players need to read this!

I actually think that this went too far the other way.

We don't really know where this leaves the Scotland team at the moment and we won't know until the weekend.

It was all doom and gloom after getting horsed by England last year. We finished that tournament well and can do again.

Townsend has had his first big lesson and will respond to it I'm sure.

I would like to say that I expected better from Jones and Gatland than 'small man' sarcasm about a new coach and an improving team. However, what did I really expect? Professional sledgers and children.

Gatland and Jones behave like dicks who knew???

Unfortunately, at the end of the day they were right though and performances like that from Scotland will just vindicate their choice of words. There is only really one way to answer it and that is in a performance.

No, I don't agree actually. Being snide is being snide - it doesn't matter to me how a team performs in response to it. Being graceless makes you a tw@t - I don't care how good the people who made the comments are at their day jobs. That's not what I teach my kids.

I did not say they were not snide or graceless. They were.

They were right however in their insinuation that Scotland flatter to deceive.

Fundamentally they don't respect Scotland and when we play like that, you would wonder why they should!

Just read on Twitter that apparently Sir Clive has criticised Finn Russell for smiling and looking happy during the anthems yesterday...

That was big of him. Surclive is a lot like Caprisun. He's dry, increasingly orange and nobody has really given a sh!t about him for about 15 years now.

Well, that was awful.

It was the same feeling of despair as England last year, the Hogg red card game, the 20-0 v England. That feeling of just never being in the races.

We started ok but got red line fever whenever we had any go-forward, and then the Davies try just knocked us so much we never recovered. The leadership on the pitch was lacking - after losing an early try (or 2) there should have been the huddle under the posts, a stern word, and a change of plan to bring back some control.Pretty telling that the one time we put a few phases together without trying a miracle offload or kicking it away, we scored our consolation try.

In the tunnel before the game Barclay looked physically sick, I've never seen anything like it before. I think the game was lost before the national anthems tbh.

Finn was Finn. In another team he'd be dropped after that performance but unfortunately we don't have anyone else. There is the argument that he should be left in as he surely won't be as bad again... Price had a game a bit like the 2nd half vs France last year - headless. Question for the next game is whether bringing in Laidlaw for some composure would nullify our attacking threat.

Harris had a bit of a shocker but it wasn't really the game for him. A 13 playing 12 inside him, halfbacks impersonating headless chickens, and Byron McGuigan on the wing. Whilst he can't be blameless for being a bit rubbish, he wasn't really given a fair chance. Maybe one for the summer tour to bed him in properly.

Question is if Dunbar & Taylor aren't fit, who do we play in the centres? Horne & Jones would be the established familiar partnership, though neither fills me with much confidence defensively.

highland_scot wrote:Well, that was awful.

It was the same feeling of despair as England last year, the Hogg red card game, the 20-0 v England. That feeling of just never being in the races.

We started ok but got red line fever whenever we had any go-forward, and then the Davies try just knocked us so much we never recovered. The leadership on the pitch was lacking - after losing an early try (or 2) there should have been the huddle under the posts, a stern word, and a change of plan to bring back some control.Pretty telling that the one time we put a few phases together without trying a miracle offload or kicking it away, we scored our consolation try.

In the tunnel before the game Barclay looked physically sick, I've never seen anything like it before. I think the game was lost before the national anthems tbh.

Finn was Finn. In another team he'd be dropped after that performance but unfortunately we don't have anyone else. There is the argument that he should be left in as he surely won't be as bad again... Price had a game a bit like the 2nd half vs France last year - headless. Question for the next game is whether bringing in Laidlaw for some composure would nullify our attacking threat.

Harris had a bit of a shocker but it wasn't really the game for him. A 13 playing 12 inside him, halfbacks impersonating headless chickens, and Byron McGuigan on the wing. Whilst he can't be blameless for being a bit rubbish, he wasn't really given a fair chance. Maybe one for the summer tour to bed him in properly.

Question is if Dunbar & Taylor aren't fit, who do we play in the centres? Horne & Jones would be the established familiar partnership, though neither fills me with much confidence defensively.

I'd be tempted to play them both.

Stayed away from here over the weekend as I was gutted by the performance of the team on Sat.

I think Harris has probably played himself out of any future caps, which is a shame as on paper he sounds a promising player, but he had a poor debut in the autumn and his performance on Saturday was equally terrible. Yes the ball he was getting at times was poor, but he needed a big game to get some credit in the bank after his debut and he really did not step up.

I’m a fan of CDP for Edinburgh and was happy he was picked to start against Wales, but he made me want to see Wilson come on, he did nothing for 80 mins, I genuinely cannot remember him being involved in anything. I don’t think he should be written off as he’s played ok at times for Scotland, but he needs to go out and start showing 80 minute performances for Edinburgh before he’s considered again.

McGuigan will probably be dropped for next week with Maitland coming in to replace him. I can understand why McGuigan got the nod to start after his performance against Australia, and I’m not sure how bad he actually was against Wales, as I don’t think we got the ball to him much, but to be honest I’ve tried to blank the game from my memory and you couldn’t pay me enough to watch it back again.

In terms of who I’d like to see play against France:

Front row – stays the same, they did nothing wrong at the scrum and whilst the loose work wasn’t the best, it was the same for everyone.
2nd row – Ritchie is fit again apparently, so could be in contention, but I’d probably go with Gilco and Johnny.
Back row – Same but with Wilson starting and CDP released back to Edinburgh
9 & 10 – I’d stick with Price and Russell, sure they both had total mares against Wales, but I don’t think we should see laidlaw start. He’s a good player, but just back from injury and doesn’t suit the game plan we are attempting. I realise that gameplan didn’t work, but I think that was down to the players just crumbling after the 2 early tries and making repeated mistakes.
Centres – If Dunbar isn’t fit (which I really hope he is) then I wonder if there is a case for Jones to stay at 12 (although not a fan based on his performance against Wales) and Bennett to start at 13. He’s probably played more rugby than any of our other realistic options (excluding Horne), and whilst he’s a bit rusty, he can’t be worse than Harris. That said clearly Dunbar 12, Jones 13 is the preferred option.
Back 3 – Seymour, Hogg and Maitland.

1. Reid
2. McInally
3. Welsh
4. J.Gray
5. Gilco
6. Barclay
7. Watson
8. Wilson
9. Price
10. Russell
11. Seymour
12. Dunbar
13. Jones
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

Well, Saturday was an absolute shocker.

For the first five minutes I thought we were going to win easily. Unfortunately fifteen Welshmen and Aldi Price disagreed with me.

When you have a ruck immediately beneath the posts and your nine suffers whiteline fever, gets isolated and gives away a penalty, then from the next phase throws an interception. You know it's going to be along day.
When that's followed by your 10 throwing a pass to no-one in your 22, but you regather it enough to be awarded a scrum but your 9 gives away a free kick by feeding squint and they score off the resulting scrum. You know it's going to be a VERY long day.
Those two scores meant that Wales could defend and pick us off on the break. Had we gone ahead early then the game would probably have turned out very differently.
However, our defending was really quite poor. We seemed to defend very narrow and the Welsh wingers had acres of space. The Welsh made a couple of breaks up the 13 channel mainly because the defence were rushing across to cover the winger and all the penultimate man had to do was run straight. In the second half when we tried to hold our line the Welsh simply passed across the front of our defenders to the winger who made hay in a channel as wide as the M4.
Changes
Second row; needs more grunt, who is our Mr Nasty? If Rithie G is fit I'd start him. Probably with GG.
Back Row. Batman for CDP.
9. Aldi P back to Glasgow. He can sit on that step and think about what he did. Henners and Frodo in the 23.
Centres; I think Furra Linee at 12, another playmaker might help take the pressure off Dancer. Jones back to 13. Dunbar to bench.
Wings. McGuigan looked poor but how much was down to the quality of ball?

So, changes at 8,9 and 12. but the philosophy will stay the same. In fact Toonie may even bring in George Horne to inject extra insanity just to annoy his critics.

p.s. If any of you gentlemen ever get the chance to have a small refreshment with Mr Scones...do. it's good for what ails you. However, if you ever get the chance of a b&b in Tremorfa....as my taxi driver said on Saturday night, "Really? mate you do know that's the roughest area in Cardiff?"

Glad you survived to tell the tale Jim.

Mind you after the present we gave them, the Welsh were probably feeling charitable!

In all seriousness, why do we routinely poop the bed during the 6N. It's perpetual false dawn stuff. Good in the autumn, spanked in the 6N. It has to be purely psychological. Wales were one cheat prop move away from getting beaten by Georgia and were battered by the Oz team we defeated without breaking stride.

Something happens to our players when they pull on that Navy blue shirt and it's not good.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:In all seriousness, why do we routinely poop the bed during the 6N. It's perpetual false dawn stuff. Good in the autumn, spanked in the 6N. It has to be purely psychological. Wales were one cheat prop move away from getting beaten by Georgia and were battered by the Oz team we defeated without breaking stride.

Something happens to our players when they pull on that Navy blue shirt and it's not good.

Indeed, if you rewatch the first half it was just nerves and mistakes holding us back. The opportunities were there and it should have resulted in try's. No reason why this Scotland team can't turn it around this Sunday reduce the errors.

highland_scot wrote:

In the tunnel before the game Barclay looked physically sick, I've never seen anything like it before. I think the game was lost before the national anthems tbh.

I get what you are saying Bsando, but why in the name of hell do we seem to utterly collapse mentally when the expectation is piling up.

The rabble that took to the field in Cardiff couldn't be more different from the team that hosed Australia or took NZ all the way. It was a completely different team and it's nothing to do with skill, it's mental procurement, and I don't know if that can be fixed, I'll tell you something else, I don't think Townsend can fix it because he was so mercurial himself.

The comment from Highland Scot that I pinched shows exactly why we lost, I saw that look in Barclay too and all of a sudden was nervous for him!

The other part of me thinks that had Gray gotten over for that Score in the first 2 minutes, the game would have been completely different.

Sorry to have to come on here and chat, but the match day thread has been locked, and no other has been re-opened, so this is the only place I can debate with the Scottish members about Saturday.

I wonder if our resident Scottish MOD would have done that if the score was reversed ?

Anyway, now that the weekend is over, and we have had time to digest what happened, I think we can now have a more mature chat, than what we did have on the match thread over the past week.

For me, one thing that has stood out from this weekend was the fact that Scotland/Scottish fans, seriously underestimated the Welsh strength in depth. Wales were without a number of players, which seriously gave the opposition a false sense that Wales were there for the taking, for me and many others on here, we were all of the opinion that Gatlands hands had been forced to do what we have all been craving for, and that is to start blooding, and putting his trust in other players.

On the match day thread, I said that I would not pick Hogg over Liam Williams, Saturdays game has now strengthened those thoughts for me, I would have taken him over Leigh Halfpenny, but after Saturday, Leigh was head and shoulders better than his opposite number.

Also, kudos for the Scottish pack at scrum time, they were supposed to be shunted all over the park, that did not happen. They stepped up well in that dept.

Lastly, all this fuss over BI Lions selection should now be put behind us. It is last years news.

If Scotland win their next match, then the massacre of Saturday will be all forgotten. I think Scotland have more than enough in them to beat France.

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry to have to come on here and chat, but the match day thread has been locked, and no other has been re-opened, so this is the only place I can debate with the Scottish members about Saturday.

I wonder if our resident Scottish MOD would have done that if the score was reversed ?

Anyway, now that the weekend is over, and we have had time to digest what happened, I think we can now have a more mature chat, than what we did have on the match thread over the past week.

For me, one thing that has stood out from this weekend was the fact that Scotland/Scottish fans, seriously underestimated the Welsh strength in depth. Wales were without a number of players, which seriously gave the opposition a false sense that Wales were there for the taking, for me and many others on here, we were all of the opinion that Gatlands hands had been forced to do what we have all been craving for, and that is to start blooding, and putting his trust in other players.

On the match day thread, I said that I would not pick Hogg over Liam Williams, Saturdays game has now strengthened those thoughts for me, I would have taken him over Leigh Halfpenny, but after Saturday, Leigh was head and shoulders better than his opposite number.

Also, kudos for the Scottish pack at scrum time, they were supposed to be shunted all over the park, that did not happen. They stepped up well in that dept.

Lastly, all this fuss over BI Lions selection should now be put behind us. It is last years news.

If Scotland win their next match, then the massacre of Saturday will be all forgotten. I think Scotland have more than enough in them to beat France.

it was locked because the thread had reached its post limit

RDW_Scotland wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry to have to come on here and chat, but the match day thread has been locked, and no other has been re-opened, so this is the only place I can debate with the Scottish members about Saturday.

I wonder if our resident Scottish MOD would have done that if the score was reversed ?

Anyway, now that the weekend is over, and we have had time to digest what happened, I think we can now have a more mature chat, than what we did have on the match thread over the past week.

For me, one thing that has stood out from this weekend was the fact that Scotland/Scottish fans, seriously underestimated the Welsh strength in depth. Wales were without a number of players, which seriously gave the opposition a false sense that Wales were there for the taking, for me and many others on here, we were all of the opinion that Gatlands hands had been forced to do what we have all been craving for, and that is to start blooding, and putting his trust in other players.

On the match day thread, I said that I would not pick Hogg over Liam Williams, Saturdays game has now strengthened those thoughts for me, I would have taken him over Leigh Halfpenny, but after Saturday, Leigh was head and shoulders better than his opposite number.

Also, kudos for the Scottish pack at scrum time, they were supposed to be shunted all over the park, that did not happen. They stepped up well in that dept.

Lastly, all this fuss over BI Lions selection should now be put behind us. It is last years news.

If Scotland win their next match, then the massacre of Saturday will be all forgotten. I think Scotland have more than enough in them to beat France.

it was locked because the thread had reached its post limit

Correct. Quite a long way over, in fact. As I mentioned at the time, anyone can set up a post-match thread.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

highland_scot wrote:

In the tunnel before the game Barclay looked physically sick, I've never seen anything like it before. I think the game was lost before the national anthems tbh.

I get what you are saying Bsando, but why in the name of hell do we seem to utterly collapse mentally when the expectation is piling up.

The rabble that took to the field in Cardiff couldn't be more different from the team that hosed Australia or took NZ all the way. It was a completely different team and it's nothing to do with skill, it's mental procurement, and I don't know if that can be fixed, I'll tell you something else, I don't think Townsend can fix it because he was so mercurial himself.

The comment from Highland Scot that I pinched shows exactly why we lost, I saw that look in Barclay too and all of a sudden was nervous for him!

The other part of me thinks that had Gray gotten over for that Score in the first 2 minutes, the game would have been completely different.

Have to agree here, I don't think its as simple as just brushing off one (very) bad performance and moving on. I think its more than getting the tactics wrong and a couple of early errors meaning we have to chase the game. I think as soon as any weight of expectation builds on this team they fall apart. They can do it in one-off games against good teams, but stick them into a cauldron like the 6N and they currently don't have what it takes. I'm going forward with very low expectations for future games until I see evidence to the contrary

Players coming out in the media saying the performance was unacceptable and they have to change their mentality to ensure that never happens again - I'm pretty sure they said the same thing after Twickers last year...

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry to have to come on here and chat, but the match day thread has been locked, and no other has been re-opened, so this is the only place I can debate with the Scottish members about Saturday.

I wonder if our resident Scottish MOD would have done that if the score was reversed ?

Anyway, now that the weekend is over, and we have had time to digest what happened, I think we can now have a more mature chat, than what we did have on the match thread over the past week.

For me, one thing that has stood out from this weekend was the fact that Scotland/Scottish fans, seriously underestimated the Welsh strength in depth. Wales were without a number of players, which seriously gave the opposition a false sense that Wales were there for the taking, for me and many others on here, we were all of the opinion that Gatlands hands had been forced to do what we have all been craving for, and that is to start blooding, and putting his trust in other players.

On the match day thread, I said that I would not pick Hogg over Liam Williams, Saturdays game has now strengthened those thoughts for me, I would have taken him over Leigh Halfpenny, but after Saturday, Leigh was head and shoulders better than his opposite number.

Also, kudos for the Scottish pack at scrum time, they were supposed to be shunted all over the park, that did not happen. They stepped up well in that dept.

Lastly, all this fuss over BI Lions selection should now be put behind us. It is last years news.

If Scotland win their next match, then the massacre of Saturday will be all forgotten. I think Scotland have more than enough in them to beat France.

I think only a handful of fans underestimated the Welsh strength in depth. To bring in 10 players from a very good Scarlets team shows how strong the talent pool in Wales is. I think in the matchday thread someone mentioned that Scotland should be concerned when the Wales team was announced, and I fully agreed with that.

With that said I think the media went over the top in terms of how weak Wales were likely to be, due to injuries, ahead of the game. That was pretty surprising. I always expected Wales to win, but not like that. I think that game was a perfect storm as far as Scotland are concerned, a total lack of confidence and ability in the Scotland ranks, compounded by a Wales team in form and looking to prove a point after their recent criticism.

Better team (by a long way) won on the day.

George, RDW_Scotland....

How many smiley's do I have to add to show you that I was messing with that comment ???

Come on, I know Saturday was painful for you, but lets try and have at least a bit of fun on here.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:In all seriousness, why do we routinely poop the bed during the 6N. It's perpetual false dawn stuff. Good in the autumn, spanked in the 6N. It has to be purely psychological. Wales were one cheat prop move away from getting beaten by Georgia and were battered by the Oz team we defeated without breaking stride.

Something happens to our players when they pull on that Navy blue shirt and it's not good.

Is it perhaps that Scotland put more into the friendlies than Wales do? And in reverse, Wales put more into tournaments with silverware than Scotland do? That's my theory. I've long thought that if Australia were in the 6 Nations then Wales' would have beaten them a few times in the recent past and wouldn't have such a bad record against them. We up our game a few notches for the 6N. It's what makes us tick. Whereas I read on the match thread (from a Scottish poster) that Scotland are perhaps more set up for SH rugby now and perhaps prefer playing that, so do they get themselves up more for that?

Very rare to get a friendly in rugby. Pre wc?

LordDowlais wrote:George, RDW_Scotland....

How many smiley's do I have to add to show you that I was messing with that comment ???

Come on, I know Saturday was painful for you, but lets try and have at least a bit of fun on here.

I don't think it was underestimating the Welsh strength in depth LD.

For me my confidence was underpinned by what I saw in the Autumn. Let's be blunt. Wales were every bit as shambolic in the Autumn as Scotland were on Saturday. Let's be even more blunt and say you were a very dodgy injury replacement away from losing to Georgia. I follow Welsh rugby especially the Scarlets because that's my dad's teams, we are rugby buddies and its our joint excuse to get on the jars   .

Contrast that to Scotland who started slow against Samoa, and then produced 2 of the best performances I've ever seen from my team against NZ and against Oz (14 men aside the accuracy of attack against Australia was amazing).

What I cannot fathom is how Wales turn up and switched on for that game on Saturday, especially after a woeful Autumn series and Scotland turned up and switched off!!!

The game in Cardiff in November is going to be very interesting, interesting to see if in a lower pressure situation Scotland turn up, switch on and get this growing Cardiff monkey off our backs .

Gatland is a horrible vomit stain of a man. He knows his rugby but he is a top drawer walloper. When/If Dai Young or Pivac take the helm losing to Wales will become far more palatable.

EWT Spoons wrote:With that said I think the media went over the top in terms of how weak Wales were likely to be, due to injuries, ahead of the game.

Yes, and that was what I was alluding to. There was a lot of chest thumping going on up north prior to this game, and although I did not want to say it pre-match, I thought a few people would end up with egg on their faces. In saying that though, I was not in a million miles expecting what happened on Saturday.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Very rare to get a friendly in rugby. Pre wc?

AIs. Basically a friendly.

Scottrf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Very rare to get a friendly in rugby. Pre wc?

AIs. Basically a friendly.

Incorrect, all of these matches affect IRB world rankings and therefore dictate seedings for RWC draws, pretty important. As such there is no such thing as a friendly, unless the Lions or the Baa Baas are involved.

Ah. Bit of an excuse not carrying performance through the year then?

Agree rugger.

LordDowlais wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:With that said I think the media went over the top in terms of how weak Wales were likely to be, due to injuries, ahead of the game.

Yes, and that was what I was alluding to. There was a lot of chest thumping going on up north prior to this game, and although I did not want to say it pre-match, I thought a few people would end up with egg on their faces. In saying that though, I was not in a million miles expecting what happened on Saturday.

Fair. Can't disagree with that. Was an odd stance, considering how well we tend to do in the AIs which guarantees us the 'dark horses' tag, which quickly unravels as soon as the 6 nations kicks off. This is just following the same pattern that we have seen year after year. It could be argued this year was different due to the teams we beat (narrowly lost to) in the autumn, but it's fairly standard fare.

I thought the game would be close, with a score at most deciding the game (in Wale's favour) but that was a shocker, I just hope the players bounce back and show something approaching ability against France, otherwise it's going to be long tournament for Scotland.

From a Welsh point of view, do you think you can kick on from here and be challengers?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Gatland is a horrible vomit stain of a man. He knows his rugby but he is a top drawer walloper. When/If Dai Young or Pivac take the helm losing to Wales will become far more palatable.

That's a very strong statement to make, I do not think you have chosen your words wisely here.

After all the stuff written in the press building up to this fixture, there is no wonder he lost his rag a little.

EWT Spoons wrote:From a Welsh point of view, do you think you can kick on from here and be challengers?

England and Ireland will be the acid tests for us. I think Saturday could be quite humbling for us, but in saying that, I quite fancy us against Ireland, we seem to do well against them at the moment.

LordDowlais wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:From a Welsh point of view, do you think you can kick on from here and be challengers?

England and Ireland will be the acid tests for us. I think Saturday could be quite humbling for us, but in saying that, I quite fancy us against Ireland, we seem to do well against them at the moment.

Certainly have to be going into the game full of confidence, but yeah England away is going to be a tough ask.

EWT Spoons wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:With that said I think the media went over the top in terms of how weak Wales were likely to be, due to injuries, ahead of the game.

Yes, and that was what I was alluding to. There was a lot of chest thumping going on up north prior to this game, and although I did not want to say it pre-match, I thought a few people would end up with egg on their faces. In saying that though, I was not in a million miles expecting what happened on Saturday.

Fair.  Can't disagree with that.  Was an odd stance, considering how well we tend to do in the AIs which guarantees us the 'dark horses' tag, which quickly unravels as soon as the 6 nations kicks off.  This is just following the same pattern that we have seen year after year.  It could be argued this year was different due to the teams we beat (narrowly lost to) in the autumn, but it's fairly standard fare.

I thought the game would be close, with a score at most deciding the game (in Wale's favour) but that was a shocker, I just hope the players bounce back and show something approaching ability against France, otherwise it's going to be long tournament for Scotland.

From a Welsh point of view, do you think you can kick on from here and be challengers?

Not sure. I think we'll lose to England but perhaps beat France (but not by much) and Italy at home. Ireland away will be the match that decides whether this campaign is a success or failure. Our record away in Ireland isn't too bad. But it's a hell of an ask. Lose that and England and we're mid table and it won't be seen as a good campaign.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Very rare to get a friendly in rugby. Pre wc?

AIs. Basically a friendly.

Incorrect, all of these matches affect IRB world rankings and therefore dictate seedings for RWC draws, pretty important. As such there is no such thing as a friendly, unless the Lions or the Baa Baas are involved.

Seedings are already done. Rankings will even out before 2021 (losses wont hit you as hard if your ranking took a dip, and wins will be more beneficial). They are pretty much a friendly.

I think there was a sense of confidence in Scotland, but for once I don't think it was misplaced. We were in very good form going into Saturdays game, with every reason to feel buoyant. Personally I had it as 50/50 game - and said so on the match thread.

However, we were totally out-coached and out-played. Wales tactics were spot on, kick the ball back to us in play and let the over-eager/naive Scotland team punch themselves out. That we didn't have the nous to realise what we were doing wasn't working, and that Gatland new we wouldn't, only compounds the frustration.

I have to say, it was up there with some of the very worst dross we have produced over the last 15 odd years.

LordDowlais wrote:George, RDW_Scotland....

How many smiley's do I have to add to show you that I was messing with that comment ???

Come on, I know Saturday was painful for you, but lets try and have at least a bit of fun on here.

Smileys do not always translate to friendly jovial commentary - did you see Gwlads comments?