Edinburgh vs Glasgow - Leg 1 (of 3) for the 1872 cup

First topic message reminder :

Venue: Murrayfield Stadium Date: Saturday, 23 December Kick-off: 17:10 GMT
Coverage: Live on BBC Alba and BBC Radio Scotland

Its that time, and even with the bonkers decision to make this a 3 game series, we're all up for the start of the 1872 cup. One of the oldest and most prestigious club cups in world rugby

The form guide

Edinburgh last 6

15/12/2017 Euro Challenge Cup Pool 4
78 - 0 v Krasny Yar (h)

09/12/2017 Euro Challenge Cup Pool 4
50 - 20 v London Irish (h)

01/12/2017 Guinness PRO14
48 - 21 v Kings (a)

24/11/2017 Guinness PRO14
13 - 33 v Cheetahs (a)

04/11/2017 Guinness PRO14
37 - 10 v Ospreys (h)

28/10/2017 Guinness PRO14
24 - 13 v Benetton (a)

Glasgow last 6

16/12/2017 Champions Cup Pool 3
26 - 36 v Montpellier (a)

08/12/2017 Champions Cup Pool 3
22 - 29 v Montpellier (h)

01/12/2017 Guinness PRO14
40 - 16 v Cardiff Blues (h)

26/11/2017 Guinness PRO14
47 - 6 v Ospreys (a)

03/11/2017 Guinness PRO14
31 - 21 v Leinster (h)

27/10/2017 Guinness PRO14
43 - 13 v Kings (h)

Glasgow are on a 2 game losing streak but unbeaten in the Pro 14. Edinburgh are on a 3 game winning streak but havn't notched up the same number of wins in the league as Glasgow.

Will Edinburgh be the team to deny Glasgow their first unbeaten domestic run in the league going into the festive period?

1872 Cup form

Last 6

Glasgow 16–6 Edinburgh
Edinburgh20–8 Glasgow
Edinburgh 23–11 Glasgow
Glasgow 11–14 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 12–25 Glasgow
Glasgow 18–29 Edinburgh

Take what you want from this form. It seems that recently, the away team has been getting the win! However, despite Edinburgh being in a dark dark place for the last few years, they seem to come out on top when it comes to the 1872 cup winning 4 out of 6 of the last matches.

Teams up!

Edinburgh the Black and Red Army

15. Blair Kinghorn (55)
14. Dougie Fife (94)
13. James Johnstone (11)
12. Phil Bureligh (67)
11. Duhan van der Merwe (3)
10. Jaco van der Walt (3)
9. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (96)

1. Rory Sutherland 55)
2. Stuart McInally (111) CAPTAIN
3. Simon Berghan (41)
4. Ben Toolis (78)
5. Grant Gilchrist (109)
6. Viliame Mata (23)
7. Hamish Watson (77)
8. Cornell du Preez (92)

Replacements: 16. Neil Cochrane (63); 17. Murray McCallum (28); 18. Matt Shields (2); 19. Fraser McKenzie (91); 20. Jamie Ritchie (40); 21. Nathan Fowles (45); 22. Chris Dean (54); 23. Darcy Graham (2)

Glasgow's weedy, wimpy Warriors

15. Ruaridh Jackson (126)
14. Tommy Seymour (109)
13. Huw Jones (1)
12. Alex Dunbar (105)
11. Lee Jones (65)
10. Peter Horne (128)
9. Ali Price (50)

1. Jamie Bhatti (18)
2. Fraser Brown (69)
3. Zander Fagerson (60)
4. Scott Cummings (30)
5. Jonny Gray (79) CAPTAIN
6. Robert Harley (170)
7. Matt Smith (10)
8. Samu Vunisa (4)

Replacements:

16. Pat MacArthur (163); 17. Oli Kebble (2); 18. Siua Halanukonuka (4); 19. Kiran McDonald (4); 20. Chris Fusaro (129); 21. Henry Pyrgos (135); 22. Finn Russell (72); 23. Niko Matawalu (84)

Get strapped in boys and girls. This should be a proper Christmas Cracker (boom boom)

GC. Gimme some pictures

How was that not a knock on?!

That try seemed a bit easy - what happened there?

Would love to see cockers reaction to that try.

RDW_Scotland wrote:That try seemed a bit easy - what happened there?

Always very risky to play that one on your own line. Cummings just caught it and walked over. Easy!

Try Edinburgh and deserved.

Game on!

Glasgow have kicked a lot this game and it hasn't been good. Lots of frustrated weegies here.

CDP and Mata have put in huge shifts but we've been roasted at the breakdown.

Didn't look like a knock on against Edinburgh!

Edinburgh looking knackered, but we can win this!

YESSSSSSSSS

Oh dear Glasgow.

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.........

That was a game for all to forget.

Glasgow, the once a future champions humbled again by the mighty Edinburgh.

Ya beauty!!!!!!!!

Well done Edinburgh, have to say you deserved that. We really were piss poor today but to win with 14 players says a lot about how far Edinburgh have come on.

Amazing finish. Berghan might escape actual death at the hands of Cockers now!

Not Frak good enough. Well done Edinburgh you tossers. Dogged performance and you really fronted up.

I’m away to get pished.

Wow, missed the 2nd half well done Edinburgh!

Sam H C really needs to sort his game out. He might not get much more game time at Edinburgh at the rate he's going.

Walking into town surrounded by disgruntled weegies trying to work out how they lost that - life is good

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Amazing finish. Berghan might escape actual death at the hands of Cockers now!

Has he been seen since half time? It might be to late for him. Having said that I'm fairly certain Cockers did worse in a training session as a player let alone in a game so might be more understanding.

To our less fortunate brethern at the wrong end of the M8 - are you Edinburgh in disguise?

Fascinating fact of the day:

Glasgow haven't beaten Edinburgh since 2016

Has anyone seen or heard from jimbo or 21st lately? They've gone awfully quiet!

What a courageous performance from Edinburgh. There wasn't a massive amount of flair but it was dogged as hell with huge commitment.  The remaining pack put in a huge shift with McInally and both second rows standouts - I thought the much maligned Gilchrist was excellent, solid in the lineout and a big presence round the park. McInally's performance and form of late may have earned him the long term captaincy. Jamie Ritchie made a real impact off the bench too.

Our south African 10 and 11 put in good displays - what a difference it makes to have a decent player at 10! He has a good all round skillset and a bit of X-factor about him with his break in the second half, halted by a boot kicking the ball out his hands. Credit to whoever found him and got him across to Edinburgh so quickly!  VDM#2 looks like he could be a good signing too.

There were still some bad moments though - god knows what they were doing for Glasgow's second try. When do you ever see teams stand off on their own 5m line?? It was then compounded by McInally tackling the wrong man as the ball hadn't been transferred yet! I was also tearing my hair out at the end of the first half where we showed terrible game management to not close out the half, instead giving Glasgow one last opportunity (which they butchered). We were also lacking a cutting edge and didn't really get anywhere when we had lots of possession around the half way line, but that's maybe a bit harsh given we were a man down.

So a hugely pleasing performance from Edinburgh and one to build on. I'm looking forward to seeing a fired up Hamish Watson play next week - he won't have liked being subbed off after 10 minutes but Cockerill's decision paid off. As did bringing Jamie Ritchie on for Fife to shore up the pack.

As for Glasgow, well that was bloody awful. There were a lot of disgruntled weegies at the game and  online saying every year they travel through in their thousands to Murrayfield but several times lately Glasgow serve up a rubbish display lacking commitment and full of errors.

Glasgow were utterly clueless in how to play against 14 men. It took them 40 minutes to score their first points a man up. The scrums were a mess until the big props came on.Even still they should have won that game easily if it wasn't for numerous mistakes and poor decisions.

Glasgow seemed to have changed their tactics for some reason and it didn't pay off - they did a lot of kicking and it was usually aimless or the wrong decision. Horne did not have a good game and served a reminder if it was ever needed that Russell is going to be a huge miss. Other than for their first try Glasgow's much vaunted backline were not good.

What the hell were the players doing to allow Dean to stroll in unopposed?? What made them stop playing? The ref showed advantage to Edinburgh but hadn't blown the whistle - no idea why pyrgos started clapping and stopped playing.

Glasgow have some serious questions to ask themselves after poor defeats in Europe then putting in the display that they did yesterday. It is by no means panic stations yet as they have a very comfortable place in the table but DR needs to work out what is going wrong quickly!

That was an even worse performance than the final game last season. Horne (1/10) is not a 10 and I think he played yesterday with a feckin blindfold on. Price (2/10) was only marginally better (those scrums under the posts on 38m were a travesty an easy walk over try and 7 points spurred in going for a pushover) Were Smith and Harley playing (both get 2/10). Vunisa kept going but was well played by Du Preez and the centres (3/10) - boy we miss Josh Strauss. Wingers didn't get the ball so can't blame them (3/10). Centres gash (2/10) is Hew Jones a show pony ? Front row very poor also. (2/10) JG and Cummings (4/10) did their bit but were outplayed by their opposite numbers esp Toolis who I thought was MoM. Finn was way better than Horne when he came on and I will give him 5/10 but why tf did it take until 50 mins for Rennie to realise Horne was having a mare. Rennie gets 2/10 for that and not having a plan B other than kick the ball right down the throat of their backs. Pathetic truly pathetic an utterly embarrassing display. 10000 Glasgow fans and they serve that crud up. We will win nothing this season and losing 3 in a row is just not acceptable.

Between 12 of us we blew way over a grand yesterday on tickets - and the usual dire pre and post match Murrayfield (lack of) experience. We did have a cracking meal beforehand and the worst decision we made was to actually go to Murrayfield. Then feckin Scotrail decide to put on a 3 carriage train from Wav (2045) to QSt -the stupid, ignorant useless ---ks. It did not stop at Haymarket needless to say and usual scrum to get on when a train actually deigned to stop.
So that was the last time I and most of our party will attend Murrayfield for any match no matter who is playing. If the wendyball lot are still thinking of moving to Murrayfield I would say to them think again.

A pretty fair précis of Glasgow by 21st but I feel he scored Peter Horne a bit high. Huw Jones is certainly not a show pony, however. For all the Glasgow supporters big talk I feel the result about right for where both teams are. I expect a bigger win next week when Hamish gets his chance to put things right. Oh and I do not think the good people of Edinburgh will miss the likes of 21st and his little chums!

No reason for Glasgow fans to totally lose the plot. Warriors are way ahead of everyone in their Pro14 table, it's the only thing they need to focus on now they're out of Europe. In fact, this serves as a stark reminder of what is required to win the Pro14 this season and is a good kick in the *rse to ignite that ambition to win the league. A home game next where there's no doubt in my mind, redemption will be served to Edinburgh via a shuffled team sheet.
Glasgow were flat yesterday and didn't adapt well to the Edinburgh tactics due to the sending off. I think Warriors felt they were guaranteed the win if they waited for Edinburgh to tire out, yet this unusual change in tactics worked against Glasgow. Instead of trying to disrupt Edinburgh at the breakdown and score through the phases we saw a waste of limited possession and handling errors due to lack of ball. Edinburgh resorted to pick and go tactics (obvious Edinburgh would do this surely??) and Glasgow allowed them too much clean ball.
Edinburgh have a better pack in my opinion and MacInally was a better captain on the day with a worthy MOM performance. However, Glasgow had a solid team to deal with Edinburghs narrow game and simply lacked that urgency that their captain and key players such as Price and Horne should have been providing at the crucial stages of the game. Despite the handling mistakes Glasgow should have been reassuring one other and cracking on. Instead the heads went down and the enthusiasm drained.

A family friend's daughter is dating Chris Deans brother btw and apparently he got appropriately pished last night in celebration of his brothers match wining try! Haha

It was not a good performance from Glasgow, but a bit of perspective is required, we have not become a bad team overnight and on that performance, I would fancy Edinburgh to take some points of some of the other big teams in the league if they don't turn up fully loaded.

It was the lack of nous and leadership that Glasgow showed that was the most disappointing thing for me, not being able to read the game and to do what was required. We badly missed both Ryan Wilson and Callum Gibbins, who bring that to the side in spades and unfortunately JG does not seem to have yet.

Peter Horne I thought had a particularly poor game and you do wonder after that and the faith shown in him by DR whether he really is the longer term option at FH that we need post FR. I would like to see us give Hastings some more game time in the second half of the season and we can see what he can do. If not either of them, then we are going to have to be in the market for a new 10!

Anyway, what happens up to the end of December means nothing at the end of the day, it is the end of the season that counts and if we were complacent before, we certainly should not be now. There are plenty of hard games to come now and a lot of rugby still to be played. It needs to start next Saturday and revenge needs to be on the menu.

Edinburgh now should really be thinking of making the playoffs. They are only a few points behind Ulster who are really still blowing hot and cold. Despite their improvements, they will also keep the bulk of their squad during the 6Ns and could possibly pick off a few sides that are giving up more players to their national sides. Their pathway into the euro knockouts should not be to taxing either. They now have a lot to play for as well and we need to see how they handle that pressure. No-one is going to see them as a soft touch now.

Eejit wrote:Not Frak good enough. Well done Edinburgh you tossers. Dogged performance and you really fronted up.

I’m away to get pished.

*sniggers*

Id echo what Bsando says. I was at the match and have now watched it on TV. Edinbugh Won because the pack collectively controlled the breakdown. Don't be too harsh on Horne - he got shoveled on Poopie to work with. Even when Russell cameon it wasn't much better

Toolis and Mata had great games I thought and I would love to know how far kinghorn ran in defense. I thought his covering from fullback was great

Is this the Cockers effect? An Edinburgh with a tough pack that won't back down? Its the same players and I sat In the stand with 10 mins gone, one try walked thru, a man red carded and the Glasgow win looked a certainty

Somehow Edinburgh pressured Glasgow when they had the ball enough to force the kicks and With the ball in hand Edinburgh pack just made ground and fed the half backs decent ball

Glasgow were Poopie tho ;-)

TJ wrote:Id echo what Bsando says.  I was at the match and have now watched it on TV.  Edinbugh Won because the pack collectively controlled the breakdown.  Don't be too harsh on Horne - he got shoveled on Poopie to work with.   Even when Russell cameon it wasn't much better

Toolis and Mata had great games I thought and I would love to know how far kinghorn ran in defense.  I thought his covering from fullback was great

Is this the Cockers effect?  An Edinburgh with a tough pack that won't back down?  Its the same players and I sat In the stand with 10 mins gone, one try walked thru, a man red carded and the Glasgow win looked a certainty

Somehow Edinburgh pressured Glasgow when they had the ball enough to force the kicks and With the ball in hand Edinburgh pack just made ground and fed the half backs decent ball

Glasgow were Poopie tho ;-)

Pretty much agree 100% with this.
Glasgow seem to be lacking intensity in the crunch matches this season. The most worrying statistic for me from this match is that Harley made 8 tackles and Vunisa 9. What is Rob Harley on the pitch for if it's not to make tackles. Matt Smith apparently made 26. But since the Luvvies won the breakdown I'd question why our 7 is making more tackles than anyone else on the pitch and we're not controlling that area.
At the return leg either we come out snarling and biting or we simply write off the season.
I don't care who Rennie selects, I just want to see 15 men on the pitch giving the MFL a good kicking.

Oh yes, Merry Chrimbo from Jimbo.

Didn't have a chance to watch it but well done Edinburgh. Cockers would have loved that.

Looking towards round 2, Edinburgh are likely to face a propping shortage with Sutherland injuring his shoulder and Berghan likely suspended. Marfo was unlikely to feature in these games but they may have to rush him back. That leaves McCallum and shields starting with Fenton (usually a hooker but can play LH supposedly) and Bryce covering the bench. Needless to say Glasgow should have complete scrum dominance as a result!

It is always hard for teams to follow up heroic performances like that so I'd freshen up the team a little bit - bring in Bradbury for CDP and Dean for Burleigh to add more directness and physicality to the backs. I'd maybe bring in Hoyland for Fife too as he must be chomping at the bit to play.

I suspect Glasgow will win this one fairly comfortably in the end. They're not going to have a pleasant week at training and I'm sure Russell will regain his place, with the team having a point to prove and the crowd baying for blood. Edinburgh's scrum weakness will also make it difficult to gain possession.

Glasgow 26 - Edinburgh 12

CDP had a great game so I'd be inclined to leave him. I'd have Ritchie at 6 with Mish at 7. The instructions should be to not drop the ball and we'll kick to the corners for territory

Mata was excellent as well and Cockerill seems to really rate him. I just think we need to freshen things a little to bring in fresh enthusiasm and players chomping at the bit to play. We need to build genuine competition instead of picking the same players all the time!

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/guinness-pro14/stamping-victim-fraser-brown-defends-simon-berghan-over-red-card-1-4647633

Credit to Fraser Brown for not dumping Berghan in it. He didn't go as far to say it wasn't a red though!

I’m going to work on the assumption that Sutherland is fine, and it was just a impact injury…fingers crossed, so I’d look at a team along these lines for the return leg:

1. Sutherland – Fingers crossed he’s not injured
2. McInally – Best hooker in Scotland?
3. Shields – Injury/suspensions means he’s first choice for now, with McCallum needed to cover LH from the bench
4. Toolis
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie – I think the game at Scotston will be a different game and will need his energy and disruption to restrict Glasgow on their home turf
7. Watson – Will be desperate to make up for being taken in the first leg, I just hope he channels that energy and desire correctly
8. CDP – Was superb in the first leg, Bradbury could come in if we want to freshen things up, but I wouldn’t change it personally
9. SHC – Had a good controlling game
10. VDW – Big strong and able to break and control the game, also the only fit 10 we have
11. VDM – big lad who I think has replaced Harris as the ‘big wing’ option
12. Burliegh – His experience will be needed.
13. Johnstone – Did nothing wrong to warrant being dropped. Sure Dean did well and got the try, and I would leave him as the same impact sub option from the bench
14. Fife – Strong defence and threat with ball in hand, should start again
15. Kinghorn – His defence was really good in the first leg, should get a chance to offer a threat with ball in hand in the return fixture.

16. Cochrane
17. McCallum
18. K. Bryce
19. McKenzie
20. Mata
21. Fowles
22. Dean
23. Graham

I realise this is a very similar team to last week, and I get RDWs point about rotation and rest etc, but in some parts of the team we have no choice due to injuries, and in others we have players who I think will have a physiological advantage over their Glasgow counterparts.

I feel bad about dropping Mata to the bench as he was superb and would be happy with him starting again, but I've given him the role of impact sub. That said I wouldn't be upset if Ritchie and him swapped places with Ritchie coming off the bench to cause issues like he did at the weekend.

It was clumsy, not deliberate but unfortunately for him was a red card all day long. Pretty much any boot to the head will be these days. Even Cockers did not really seem to object to the call. He really is a more restrained man these days, he would have been ranting about it once upon a time!

He may well get a few weeks for it, the fact that it was the head may mean it is regarded as a mid entry point, which could mean 6 weeks, though that should be reduced for admitting it, saying sorry and the fact that I don't think he has any previous!

I have no idea what changes DR will enforce on Glasgow, injuries are tying his hands a bit, but the team does need freshening up somewhat. The two previous games against Pelly do seem to have taken their toll.

Hopefully the few days off over xmas will have gotten the energy levels back up a bit and a better performance will ensue. Our next three games are Zebre away, then the two dead rubber euro games, so rest and rotation can wait until then and we need to get our best available side out.

Russell is sure to start this time. Horne did not have a great game. I would maybe give him the week off and have Hastings on the bench.

Tommy S is the other player who also looks pretty jaded and another week of R&R may not do any harm. That may depend on whether any of the other wingers are fit though.

Gibbins should be back though, to put a bit more steel into the back row, an area we definitely lost out badly in last week.

My stab at the team:

Kebble
Brown
Fagerson
Gray
Cummings
Gibbins
Vanisu
Smith
Price
Russell
Niko
Dunbar
Jones H
Jones L
Jacko

Bench:

Bhatti
McArthur
Nuke
McDonald
Fagerson
Horne G
Hastings
Grigg

BigGee wrote:It was clumsy, not deliberate but unfortunately for him was a red card all day long. Pretty much any boot to the head will be these days. Even Cockers did not really seem to object to the call. He really is a more restrained man these days, he would have been ranting about it once upon a time!

He may well get a few weeks for it, the fact that it was the head may mean it is regarded as a mid entry point, which could mean 6 weeks, though that should be reduced for admitting it, saying sorry and the fact that I don't think he has any previous!

And I think you'll find Brown deliberately headbutted Berghan's boot to get him sent off - he's got history with that don't you know!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:It was clumsy, not deliberate but unfortunately for him was a red card all day long. Pretty much any boot to the head will be these days. Even Cockers did not really seem to object to the call. He really is a more restrained man these days, he would have been ranting about it once upon a time!

He may well get a few weeks for it, the fact that it was the head may mean it is regarded as a mid entry point, which could mean 6 weeks, though that should be reduced for admitting it, saying sorry and the fact that I don't think he has any previous!

And I think you'll find Brown deliberately headbutted Berghan's boot to get him sent off - he's got history with that don't you know!

Yes the

' he walked right onto my fist my lord' approach

that might work!

I like your team BigGee, I think some changes are needed for Glasgow, but not wholesale as I'm sure Rennie will want to give the players a chance to get revenge.

I don't think Glasgow will be as complacent next time out and at home they are a very different proposition. Will be interesting to see how both teams react.

Leinster did Glasgow a big favour yesterday in beating Munster at home and maintaining our three game cushion at the top of the conference. That was a gift and one we should not take lightly. It could be the key to a home semi final.

Having said that Leinster really do look like the team to beat this season. They were not even at full strength and they demolished Munster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42492629

BBC site saying that a stamp to the head is considered a high entry point, which has a 12 week starting point.

Even if it got halved for mitigation, that could cost him a 6N place.

I believe he's also had a couple of yellows as well (probably scrum pens), not sure if they are taken into consideration, but if they are they could work against him as well.

I think they only take previous disciplinaries into account - he can't be punished for bad scrummaging!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think they only take previous disciplinaries into account - he can't be punished for bad scrummaging!

Probably just as well!

I was just speculating what his yellows were for, might be discipline related. I'll be honest, I've not been keeping notes.

Fair play to brown for saying it wasn't a big thing. Like I said at the time, it looked like berghan was trying to draw attention to brown being offside so he didn't go out to cause damage. Touching someone's head with your boot to show they are offside is a really stupid way of doing it though.

World rugby have said before that the the action is to be penalised, not the outcome. Berghan could easily be looking at a hefty ban here!