Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

Jeez - O’Donoghue eeled his way through that maul and caught Herring.

theslosty wrote:Mathematically Wasps are still in with a shout of winning the group are they not?

Mathematically yes. But the chances of La Rochelle not thumping Harlequins in France are pretty remote. Bare in mind that this is a La Rochelle team that didn't lose at home in the Top14 last season. Difficult to fathom anything other than 5 points for La Rochelle, even more difficult to fathom them getting nothing at home to Quins. Wasps would also have to make sure that we didn't get a LBP or TBP as well, to win the group. They won't qualify as a best runner up with 17 points, not the way all the groups are sitting. Wasps are as good as out, but will still likely play a strong team at home.

Yes that is true if Rochelle get nothing at home to quin's and they spank us for the full 5 points, and we get nothing, then yes they can top the group.
Now I don't want to say that all of the above is Impossible, but frack it, come on that can't happen.....can it?

Bit belated, but what a win! Credit where it's due, La Rochelle are a top team and we completely nullified them after 20 mins.

Once we took away their offloading game they didn't look anywhere near favorites for the competition.

Everyone seemed to up their game on Saturday. The players, but also the coaches and technical staff. We had clearly done our homework on them. The result is almost a carbon copy of what happens every year, usually in Europe. A heroic show of force at home. An almost predictable false dawn, after so many false dawns.

Elsewhere Quins have done us a massive favour. How Wasps lost I just don't know, but I did see the interviews after. Launchbury and Dai Young both said they're out. Both said they'll look to bounce back next week but you have to think we won't be facing a full strength Wasps team. A bonus point win and we're guaranteed a home quarter.

Individual thoughts :

- The game changed on two moments, firstly Gilroy going off and Cave coming on at 13 with Ludik moved to the wing. Secondly the yellow card that never was. Pretty harsh really.
- Barnes was awful. Awful on both sides but still awful. La Rochelle seemed to be allowed to pass forward at will while he gifted us 10 minutes against 14 and missed a good few knock ons (including 1 in our 22 near the end).
- Our intensity won it. Intensity meant we carried harder, we're up in defence quicker and cleared out rucks faster. Intensity is a mental issue, that we can provide that level of intensity twice or three times a year speaks to a lot with what is wrong with the club. Exeter bring that level of intensity week in week out, Saracens had that sort of intensity in previous seasons. Ulster show that sort of intensity only ever in patches.
- Our scrum is a mess. On 1 off games you could argue that we just up against a stronger scrummaging pack but we've seen this happen too often recently. Questions need to asked of Dundon. I see that Ospreys minced Saracens in the scrum at the weekend. Nobody is crying that Clarke is gone, but it does play to the theory that he at least kept the set piece stable.
- We need to trust youth. Rea and Timoney didn't let us down yesterday. Heaven only knows why Rea is only getting his chance at 24. You have to wonder if the likes of Dow, Taggert and others had of been given a real chance if they could have made something of themselves rather than see their careers die on the vine at Ulster. When in doubt, play the youngsters.
- Lealiifano and Cooney really have bailed us out this season. To think we've lost Pienaar and Jackson, we could have been totally lost and yet we've come up breathing. Donald has some big shoes to fill.
- McPhillips made two big tackles in his short cameo. Considered a big weakness of his, let's hope it's mental and he develops a love of contact in the future.

Redman wrote:Secondly the yellow card that never was. Pretty harsh really.

Very harsh.

Charles overreacted.

Stockdale trying to be the enforcer after a non-incident and patting their winger on the head was embarrassing.

Took a tiny bit of gloss off what was a fantastic win.

Those kind of yellows always seem harsh. I remember one poster on here, when discussing the Payne incident, claiming that if you're entering an area where there may be a player becoming airborn you must show due care. What a load of off toss. To the letter of the law it was a yellow, if Barnes had used common sense it would only have been a penalty.
I cannot however see what was embarassing about patting a belligerent opposition player on the head.

I don't think he, the La Rochelle player, was being belligerent. He wasn't trying to start anything. Stockdale charged in as if Piutau had been taken out deliberately - which I don't think anyone can argue he had.
There was no harm done by Stockdale but it was a bit cringey.
La Rochelle player seemed bemused by the whole episode.

For those saying the yellow was harsh, do we not need to move with the times. This call was completely consistent with every call in recent years. Sometimes it goes for you, sometimes against. It’s all very well saying we disagree. But as long as the calls we disagree with are consistent I have no problem benefiting from it.
On another day it could have been us falling foul and losing the games as a result. This is rugby, it’s unpredictable.
The rule is silly and IMO only encourages coaches to tell players ‘always jump’. It’s only ever non jumping players who get in trouble.
As the referee would say... Piutau was airborne and it was the responsibility of the La Rochelle player to insure his safety.

This isn’t new guys. Let’s not apologise for it.

I personally liked seeing Cooney and Stockdale winding players up. Being the nice lads in rugby hasn’t really got us anywhere in the past. Maybe try a bit of antagonism sure if it gets the players and crowd fired up and means the opposition players lose their cool.

I'd rather see them making their tackles week-in week-out.

On another note - Rory Best is a living legend!

clivemcl wrote:I personally liked seeing Cooney and Stockdale winding players up. Being the nice lads in rugby hasn’t really got us anywhere in the past. Maybe try a bit of antagonism sure if it gets the players and crowd fired up and means the opposition players lose their cool.

One player who wasn't backing down at anytime was Timoney, he was one of the first in everytime and there was a reset scrum close to the La Rochelle line he was calling for the ball off Cooney to go quickly. That's before you get to his overall performance, think he'll become a real leader in this squad

rapidsnowman wrote:

Redman wrote:Secondly the yellow card that never was. Pretty harsh really.

Very harsh.

Charles overreacted.

Stockdale trying to be the enforcer after a non-incident and patting their winger on the head was embarrassing.

Took a tiny bit of gloss off what was a fantastic win.

Think it's unfair to say Piutau overreacted, a fall like that can knock the wind out of you but Jordaan didn't seem to be going for the ball he was just running in the general direction of it

It also was hardly a non incident since his team mate was just knocked out of the air, all he would is seen because of his position is Jordaan take Piutau out its not like he tried trailing an injured player of the ground like an ar$ehole La Rochelle player did with Gilroy

I think all (well most) players involved in these type of incidents stay down now because of how they are officiated now.
Maybe I'm being unfair to Piutau maybe he was winded. I just think the hits these guys give and take in the course of a game are a lot worse than that and they just bounce back on their feet.

I have no problem with Stockdale squaring up on behalf of a team mate, but patting the La Rochelle player on the head just seemed a bit patronising and cringe worthy in the circumstances. I'm obviously on my own in this opinion

I totally agree the guy trying to have a go at Gilroy when he was obviously injured was a prat

Jordaan had no chance to see Piutau taking to the air but he did play the player in the air. It was an unavoidable contact in those split seconds but the laws at the moment will always award at least a yellow for that. Look at the Payne incident where he didn't play the player yet got the red. If Piutau had been knocked out on saturday would it have transformed it into a red card incident?

Well there you go, on paper a great result from Ulster to stop the rot.  

Best was phenomenal, followed by Hendo and some great performances across the board. Stockdale bounced back with a fantastic finish and we are well in with the chance to qualify for the QF.

However it has to be said, the turning point, as with the Munster game was a yellow card which allowed us into a game we were well out off. I think the card was harsh as Piatau actually jumped into the Ls Rochelle winger but in any case it was a stroke of luck as we were very much second best early on.

Stockdales try also came from a clear knock on by Ludik so I do think we got the rub of the green on Saturday.

It was a brave performance, no doubt and great to see so many players front up but I think this papers over the cracks a bit and doesn't answer any doubts about the coaching and management.

I hoped after the Quins results we'd turned a corner but fear our topsy turvy form will continue but hope I'm wrong.

rodders wrote:Stockdales try also came from a clear knock on by Ludik so I do think we got the rub of the green on Saturday.

It was a brave performance, no doubt and great to see so many players front up but I think this papers over the cracks a bit and doesn't answer any doubts about the coaching and management.

Don't think it was clear, I've seen a few replays and it's hard to see from the camera angle if its flat or forward but it's also the direction of the hands not the ball don't forget

I do think we could have went down to 14 though for Gilroys tackle/collision

Is it the coaches fault though the inconsistency? I posted yesterday about Todd Blackadder and Bath, he basically called their performance on Friday crap and talked about how inconsistent they are and while it's normally down to inconsistent preparation he thinks they are preparing right but not showing up come game day. Ulsters inconsistency is going back a long way and different regimes, is it time the players got the finger pointed at them?

No, the view from above showed the touch from Ludik didn’t go forward. If it had went toTMO it would have been awarded.

I thought defence was actually pretty good. Do what does that mean? Either Kiss has started coaching better or the performances are coming down to player psychology...

clivemcl wrote:I thought defence was actually pretty good. Do what does that mean? Either Kiss has started coaching better or the performances are coming down to player psychology...

Is it so technical a reason?

The psychology of fed-up-ness maybe? Maybe the players are simply fed up underperforming and have decided to concentrate more on their roles. Bad form being replaced by good form is another way of saying it.

Anyway, we'll see how it all pans out. Would be great to see all 3 Provinces end the pool stages on top.

clivemcl wrote:I thought defence was actually pretty good. Do what does that mean? Either Kiss has started coaching better or the performances are coming down to player psychology...

A bit of both is probably the answer, it probably helps that we tried playing less in our own 22. Have Ulster kicked as much this season as they did on Saturday?

Less pressure building in your 22, less opportunity to turn the ball over close to your own line plus more room for error when the balls up the other end of the field

As expected our Tommy will make this season his last. It'd be nice to send him off on a high note eh Les?

Yep Tommy gone as expected.
He has been negotiating TV contracts for some time now

I am starting to wonder if Trimble will see out his contract (2019) - probably will.

Rea and Timoney, along with Jones confirm that again they are all better than Deysel.
For me Henderson was good as anyone but happy to see Rory get MOTM.

Special praise for Black - he was supposed to be on the way out but quite honestly he is the best LH we have - we need to
retain him.

I actually thought that Cooney was the man of the match for Ulster, fair play to Best for getting it but for me it was Cooney pulling the strings.

Sad to see Bowe retire, he will definitely go down as one of Ulster and Ireland's finest wingers.

It is sad to see Tommy Bowe retire, he has been consistently excellent for Ulster and Ireland for I can't even remember how long now.  Would be really nice to see him and some of the other older players have one last big hurrah this season but it doesn't seem likely

Ulster have to manage the fact we will, almost certainly lose,

Payne, Best, Bowe, Trimble, P.Marshall and maybe Henry in the next two summers.
We do have good kids coming through but what we need to do is ensure that
Deysel, vDM, Coetzee, Piatau and CL are replaced with NIQ players worth signing
Only vDM has a contract going beyond summer 2019
(personally I'd cancel it, take the hit and get someone else in)

Given all these old hands coming near to the end of their careers good NIQ signings are essential

The way things are going we could be losing Best and Henderson very soon as they are still waiting on a new IRFU contract

I have to say of all the people I have ever me, in the game, Tommy Bowe is one of the most decent and likeable people out there.

Such an easy going personality who just does let anything phase him.
Not without a sense of mischief though !

He will be a natural for TV

Gives me an excuse to recount my favourite Tommy Bowe story.
Me and my mate were at Musgrave Park, over a decade ago, when we won.
We were chatting to Mark McCall just before the players were getting on the bus.
Then everyone left and a couple of attractive young ladies came up to us and said do you know 'Tommy Bowe and Andrew Trimble'
We said 'yer a little' so they started chatting
When they realised the players had left, they stopped talking and walked away.
Cant think why

marty2086 wrote:The way things are going we could be losing Best and Henderson very soon as they are still waiting on a new IRFU contract

Don't worry about Rory he is going nowhere.
He is just looking a 1 year CC so the WC can be his swansong
Henderson is a concern though

He is not going to sell him self short - we are probably talking 500, 000 Euro or something pretty close.
If they offer 350,000 - 400,000 euro he could leave

It's just a concern that Ulster seem to be bottom of the priorities list for the IRFU, Im guessing the delay has been because of Nuciforas recent loss

Apparently La Rochelle have an 87% chance of making the QFs compared to 63% for Ulster

So it's a Scarlets v Leinster final according to the forecast?

Please no! The Scarlets if they get that far will be ravenous and pumped up to International standards of intent against us. And Leinster (if they get that far) will have to play the game of their lives to beat a Welsh side gunning for a Big Trophy. The Dragon would be red hot in their breasts.

I'd prefer Leinster (if they got that far) get an English or French side to fight it out with.

Been confirmed that the Nucifora tragedy is the reason for Hendo and Best contract delay.
Best also heavily hinting that he sees the WC as his swansong

https://www.facebook.com/repofrugby/photos/a.813036915497052.1073741828.813032818830795/1163593747108032/?type=3&theater

Craig Gilroy after the weekend

From the Telegraph's interview with Rory:

I know from a captain's point of view, certainly from a coach's point of view, it can be frustrating when you don't get it.

"You can put stuff in place but they've got to learn it themselves to then do it themselves, and that's when you see the difference. It's unfortunate but that's all you can do. I know (coach) Jono (Gibbes) especially gets frustrated. He's been around Leinster and Clermont teams that win, he's seen it first hand, he can see that it's there for us, we just have to graft.

"We prepared ourselves to have to go against La Rochelle and, it sounds cliched, but empty the tank.

"We had to go to a place where we were exhausted. Top teams don't just hand you wins. In the RDS, one of the most frustrating things was that you came off the pitch and the next day, you felt reasonably alright.

"That says to me, if you have that little bit of freshness, then you didn't commit everything to that game. This week, even on Monday, getting out of bed was a chore. You were rolling out sideways and trying to get every joint straightened out as you go along.

"As sick as it sounds that's what you want. That's when you know there was nothing left to give."

Nothing less will do come Sunday afternoon - Best must take Ulster to the well once more.

That's just simply right from Rory.  You can have all the patterns you like, and the right shapes, and pre-trained moves.... but the intensity at this point, virtually always in Europe, is essential.  You just have to bring an International level of always-on intensity to every game.  And if the opposition don't have it one week, you still have to bring it and be ruthless with them because it's all prep for the inevitable game that will come when the opposition has more than enough in the tank to keep it International standard tempo for the full 80.

So is that swinging things in favour of #KissIn ?

Of course they felt alright after the Leinster game, they were playing touch rugby!

Bookies have it Wasps by 4, but we've got more than a punchers chance here.

rodders wrote:Of course they felt alright after the Leinster game, they were playing touch rugby!

Luke Marshall back for the 'A' this week.
Cairns on the wing

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DT5eyviWAAA9uTa.jpg

geoff999rugby wrote:Luke Marshall back for the 'A' this week.
Cairns on the wing

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DT5eyviWAAA9uTa.jpg

Cave must have been doing some brown nosing in recent weeks to get out of the doghouse and not have been dropped for Marshall

Only a 22 man squad for the A side, that's Ulster fully stretched then. Baffling though that Ross is in the second row ahead of Dalton

I think the rules are different at A level .
You only have 1 prop on the bench at this level

Dalton just back from injury - probably a half each.


No Lyttle - on the bench in Coventry ?

I JUST WANT TO PARK THIS HERE.....why was I in capitals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m0WljaoZ1I

Ulster team to play Wasps, Champions Cup Round 6, Ricoh Arena, Sunday 21st January, 3.15pm:
(15-9): C Piutau; L Ludik, D Cave, S McCloskey, J Stockdale; C Lealiifano, J Cooney;
(1-8): K McCall, R Best (captain), R Ah You, A O'Connor, K Treadwell, I Henderson, S Reidy, N Timoney;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, W Herbst, M Rea, C Henry, D Shanahan, J McPhillips, R Lyttle

Think its fair to say we're going to open up a bit and attack Wasps

That's a bit more like it, a 13 playing with 13 on his back makes all the difference.
After last week hopes are at least at medium setting but a little wary of false dawns and singular swallows.

Wasps:

15. Willie Le Roux
14. Christian Wade
13. Juan De Jongh
12. Kyle Eastmond
11. Marcus Watson
10. Danny Cipriani
9. Dan Robson
1. Simon McIntyre
2. Tom Cruse
3. Jake Cooper-Woolley
4. Joe Launchbury
5. James Gaskell
6. Jack Willis
7. Guy Thompson
8. Nizaam Carr

Replacements:

16. Ashley Johnson
17. Ben Harris
18. Marty Moore
19. Kearnan Myall
20. Thomas Young
21. Joe Simpson
22. Rob Miller
23. Brendan Macken

Ulster A beat Scarlets PS 24-13 in Wales. Clive Ross got MOTM. He also got a try. The others were a penalty try and Caleb Montgomery. Peter Nelson also nailed a penalty.
Put's the A team through to the Quarters v Cardiff away.

2 points from today and we go through, and if that's the case we may as well take all 5.
I can see an epic game today

Sounds like it's going to be some great conditions for the game

@WaspsRugby wrote:For those asking, the undersoil heating is on, the snow is not settling on the pitch and the forecast says it will turn to rain later. We're monitoring things in case any issues arise with surrounding areas but not expecting problems.

Cold and wet, it will be like a home game then