Ulster Rugby 2017-18

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Jeez - O’Donoghue eeled his way through that maul and caught Herring.

Could make 5 points even more difficult though, crazy though that we could finish the group stage with only Leinster scoring more match points

Well a win sees us through no matter what. So I will take a 3 nil win

A home quarter would be nice though

Stockdale off for Ulster is not a good sign for them.

eirebilly wrote:Stockdale off for Ulster is not a good sign for them.

Lyttle isn't exactly a bad player

Never said that Lyttle was a bad player? Just stated that its not a good sign for Ulster to lose Stockdale, he has been one of their most potent attacking weapons.

Well not a great first half but only 7 down.

Need to sort out the accuracy and play in the right areas, would be kinda nice to jump over Sarries and hopefully help put them out

Ulster just don't play the conditions well, they should have been sticking the ball in behind, making Wasps play from their own 22 from the start but with no Jackson or Pienaar they don't manage games well

neilthom7 wrote:Ulster just don't play the conditions well, they should have been sticking the ball in behind, making Wasps play from their own 22 from the start but with no Jackson or Pienaar they don't manage games well

Really gutted for you lads, was so hoping for you to get to the 1/4 finals.

Only just started watching again after the Munster first half, why again is McCloskey not in the Irish squad?

Shanahan the very man to turn this game around!!

So much you could say, so little I that I want to.

I thought this game would be the decider, La Rochelle at home you could win or lose, we couldn't lose today.

In the end we just weren't good enough.

Well it all went a bit wrong there. As Neil said we should have been hitting it a bit the corners, but when you don't have a proper ten playing what you gonna do. And you would have thought the Ulster lads would be used to playing in piss wet conditions, that's a standard Friday night in Belfast.
On a plus's note big Stu's defence was better than I had seen it all year

Listened to the end of this game on 5 live... barely any commentary on the actual game- it was all about how Saracens were the only English side to progress... that's a bit disappointing...

Thinking back, what was our gameplan ? We didn't kck the corners we didn't overly put it high and compete.
What was the "plan"? Hope for the best?

Not good enough, simple as that. As much as getting to the quarters would have been nice, not a snowballs chance in hell of us lifting the trophy.

I really hope Murphy and Moore arriving lifts our pack a bit, the breakdown work today was very poor. Really done a number on by Wasps in that area. Strangely though, our backs were possibly even worse than our backrow. No direction from half back, Cooney and Lealiifano really struggled with the conditions, granted the lack of protection from the backrow contributed to this. We were unlucky to lose Stockdale and Ludik but it was still a very poor showing from a star studded backline.

Congratulations to Wasps - totally outplayed Ulster in every facet.
This loss will give UR a chance to prove they are in the top six in the Pro14, because they are patently nowhere near the top 8 in Europe.

Lots of basic mistakes. Didn't play the conditions. No kicking game whatsoever. Is there any word on who ulster are lining up for next season in the ten jersey?

Maine man wrote:Lots of basic mistakes. Didn't play the conditions. No kicking game whatsoever. Is there any word on who ulster are lining up for next season in the ten jersey?

Sopoaga has signed for Wasps so it certainly won't be him. From what I've heard Berrick Barnes is available. Quade Cooper also mentioned before we signed Donald.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Maine man wrote:Lots of basic mistakes. Didn't play the conditions. No kicking game whatsoever. Is there any word on who ulster are lining up for next season in the ten jersey?

Sopoaga has signed for Wasps so it certainly won't be him.  From what I've heard Berrick Barnes is available.  Quade Cooper also mentioned before we signed Donald.

BT commentary said we haven't signed Donald yet, various contract complications and I heard elsewhere he's now injured. If qualifying for Europe next year wasn't so important you would just be tempted to give the 10 jersey to McPhillips. Just need to size up whether we can realistically beat Edinburgh to 3rd, and realistic expectations have been something that Ulster have been abysmal at for a while now ....

Being an Ulster supporter just keeps getting harder and harder. We have been getting worse since Humphreys sacked McLaughlin after getting us to the Heineken cup final.
I worry about the standards within the squad. We need Muller to come back and sort the attitudes out. Something needs to change before our next generation is ruined. Willie Anderson is doing a great job with them.
When are things going to get better? Change hasnt helped so far, so they need to work out what change will actually improve things.

It’s all very well saying we are in decline etc... but it’s the inconsistent nature that puzzles me. If we were just poor that would be one think. But what about last week or the Munster second half?
Same team, same coaches, wildly different output.

clivemcl wrote:It’s all very well saying we are in decline etc... but it’s the inconsistent nature that puzzles me. If we were just poor that would be one think. But what about last week or the Munster second half?
Same team, same coaches, wildly different output.

When we kept hold of the ball we caused Wasps problems but then found a way to turnover the ball back over eventually. There was just no outlet to clear the ball or put it behind the defence like Wasps had in Cipriani, Cooneys box kicks were awful as was Lealiifano kicking and it put us under more pressure at times. At times we have lacked big ball carriers too to rumble the ball up the pitch too which adds to the problems.

In the first half, the defence I thought was pretty good, the constant pressure told though and sapped the players physically and mentally. With Marshall coming back and hopefully Donald coming in plus McPhillips, we can get to kicking the ball in behind.

Didn't see the game as was on BT sports, couldn't face the highlights after seeing the score, where there any positives?

To be honest I wasn't hopeful about this one, on paper it was winnable but our away form has not been great and the story of the season has been a big performance followed by a mediocre one.

I don't think we were ever serious contenders but the financial implications of not reaching the KO stages will compound the downward spiral we are clearly on.

Hopefully we can build some consistency and finish strong in the league but doubt it to be honest.

Sounds like Donald is not coming now, which is just as well. I say stick with McPhillips and try and build for next season.

Ulster really are a shambles compared to the other provinces.

I wouldn't say Ulster are in decline.  That would mean that the players are central to the problem.  I think they have the wrong 'Captain' on the bridge overseeing the actual rugby stuff, because let's face it, when the chips are down, that's all the players really care about. They care about the training they get, the enthusiasm and motivation that comes from there and their future ambitions to improve their game and be better players.

The wrong Boss.  Losses are losses and every team has them, but you can always use the analogy of an engine low in petrol for this inconsistency thing.  The dramatic revving up v loss of power again is a classic sign of an engine out of juice.

I'd say there are games where the players as a whole are just so fed up with things that the rage (or annoyance) becomes a positive thing and they forget their tribulations and take their frustration positively out on the opposition.  But they can't sustain it because it's not coached. It's just the last vapours of their own belief and enthusiasm pushing them through some games. They need a great coach now.... not a good(ish) one.

rodders wrote:
Sounds like Donald is not coming now, which is just as well. I say stick with McPhillips and try and build for next season.

Ulster really are a shambles compared to the other provinces.

What happens if McPhillips gets injured rodders?

SecretFly wrote:I wouldn't say Ulster are in decline.  That would mean that the players are central to the problem.  

Well aren't they?

I mean I think Kiss has been unlucky with the Olding and Jackson debacle, on top of loosing Pienaar. Then Luke Marshall and Payne have missed most of the season. Trimble and Bowe have been out of from and fitness.

Cooney, Stockdale and to a lesser extent Piatua and McCloskey have done well but that is pretty much the whole backline we have lost in one season.

Up front where a lot of our problems have been we've suffered as well, although would suggest even with the full deck the pack probably isn't good enough.

Even factoring in quality that attitude of a lot of players has been poor, especially in defense.

That said the coaches have to take a lot of the blame also for the one dimensional tactics.

I'd say we are in decline and don't think we have hit rock bottom yet.

marty2086 wrote:

rodders wrote:
Sounds like Donald is not coming now, which is just as well. I say stick with McPhillips and try and build for next season.

Ulster really are a shambles compared to the other provinces.

What happens if McPhillips gets injured rodders?

surely we couldn't be that unlucky... Cooney to fly half?

Disappointing performance from Ulster, especially in the pack. I thought you were out-muscled which was surprising as you've been traditionally strong here the last few years and first time I've seen Wasps dominate a scrum as much this season too.

On the plus, you seem to have some good youngsters through, especially in the backs. I thought McCloskey played really well, seems a fine all-rounder.

rodders wrote:
That said the coaches have to take a lot of the blame also for the one dimensional tactics.

I'd say we are in decline and don't think we have hit rock bottom yet.

Tactics are limited by personnel surely though?

We don't have the players to kick the ball and we don't have the players to muscle over the gain line constantly so we are forced to play a certain way and it requires accuracy that isn't always there

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I wouldn't say Ulster are in decline.  That would mean that the players are central to the problem.  

Well aren't they?

I mean I think Kiss has been unlucky with the Olding and Jackson debacle, on top of loosing Pienaar. Then Luke Marshall and Payne have missed most of the season. Trimble and Bowe have been out of from and fitness.

Cooney, Stockdale and to a lesser extent Piatua and McCloskey have done well but that is pretty much the whole backline we have lost in one season.

Up front where a lot of our problems have been we've suffered as well, although would suggest even with the full deck the pack probably isn't good enough.  

Even factoring in quality that attitude of a lot of players has been poor, especially in defense.

That said the coaches have to take a lot of the blame also for the one dimensional tactics.

I'd say we are in decline and don't think we have hit rock bottom yet.

Kiss can't do it, rodders.  Never really could.  

He isn't going to suddenly change spots and become this driven, passionate coach with a rebirth of belief or enthusiasm to push Ulster back into the final of a European Champions Cup and win the thing.  Now, if some of you believe he has that 'rebirth' in him to become a different kind of coach, then so be it, he'll stick around with you for as long as you feel that.  But if you're honest with yourselves, you'll look at him, you'll listen to him in interviews and you can hardly believe this is the right 'driven' coach to drag enthusiasm back into Ulster rugby.

For me it's a total coaching problem.  Players get too much talk and emotion thrown at them on the Ulster threads.  It's a coaching issue, just like Ireland was in the latter years of Kidney and Ireland.... and who was there then, right behind Kidney but getting little of the criticism?

Fuuuuuuuuuuck

Unfortunately, Ulster Rugby is not in a position to proceed with the signing of Stephen Donald, after receiving a medical report on the player yesterday (Sunday).

Stephen had agreed a short-term deal to join the Province, but he sustained an injury while representing his club in the final game of the Japanese season, which will rule him out for 4+ weeks.

The timeline now makes it very difficult to find a suitable replacement, but we will continue to monitor the market.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I wouldn't say Ulster are in decline.  That would mean that the players are central to the problem.  

Well aren't they?

I mean I think Kiss has been unlucky with the Olding and Jackson debacle, on top of loosing Pienaar. Then Luke Marshall and Payne have missed most of the season. Trimble and Bowe have been out of from and fitness.

Cooney, Stockdale and to a lesser extent Piatua and McCloskey have done well but that is pretty much the whole backline we have lost in one season.

Up front where a lot of our problems have been we've suffered as well, although would suggest even with the full deck the pack probably isn't good enough.  

Even factoring in quality that attitude of a lot of players has been poor, especially in defense.

That said the coaches have to take a lot of the blame also for the one dimensional tactics.

I'd say we are in decline and don't think we have hit rock bottom yet.

Kiss can't do it, rodders.  Never really could.  

Go back 2 years on this thread Fly I said he was a terrible appointment. He was poor for Ireland after his initial stint as defense coach.

When he was elevated to attack coach by Kidney, BOD and a few senior players, especially the Leinster boys spoke out publicly about the attack wasn't functioning and players not knowing their roles.

His track record was poor but he as given a chance at Ulster to prove himself and failed miserably.

marty2086 wrote:Fuuuuuuuuuuck

Unfortunately, Ulster Rugby is not in a position to proceed with the signing of Stephen Donald, after receiving a medical report on the player yesterday (Sunday).

  Stephen had agreed a short-term deal to join the Province, but he sustained an injury while representing his club in the final game of the Japanese season, which will rule him out for 4+ weeks.

The timeline now makes it very difficult to find a suitable replacement, but we will continue to monitor the market.

Not surprised, he's useless anyway. We should sack Cunningham while we are at it.

marty2086 wrote:Fuuuuuuuuuuck

Unfortunately, Ulster Rugby is not in a position to proceed with the signing of Stephen Donald, after receiving a medical report on the player yesterday (Sunday).

  Stephen had agreed a short-term deal to join the Province, but he sustained an injury while representing his club in the final game of the Japanese season, which will rule him out for 4+ weeks.

The timeline now makes it very difficult to find a suitable replacement, but we will continue to monitor the market.

Ahhhh well. In McPhillips we trust.
Makes a change from them turning up then getting injured

marty2086 wrote:Fuuuuuuuuuuck

Unfortunately, Ulster Rugby is not in a position to proceed with the signing of Stephen Donald, after receiving a medical report on the player yesterday (Sunday).

  Stephen had agreed a short-term deal to join the Province, but he sustained an injury while representing his club in the final game of the Japanese season, which will rule him out for 4+ weeks.

The timeline now makes it very difficult to find a suitable replacement, but we will continue to monitor the market.

A sigh of relief from Ulster? "Finally an excuse came to let us change our mind!"

Whether you wanted Donald or not is irrelevant. What worries me is that yet again we seem to have messed up a transfer, or went after a walking sick note.
McPhillips to get experience now this season is all but a goner. But come the summer we need a great 10 on the books, and we need it to be rock solid - signed sealed delivered... and FIT.

Also... if we felt Donald was needed only if we progressed in Europe, and then use a 4 week injury as a 'get-out' just because we got knocked out of Europe... that doesn't really reflect well on the club, and players and their agents will probably know perfectly well what happened.

clivemcl wrote:Also... if we felt Donald was needed only if we progressed in Europe, and then use a 4 week injury as a 'get-out' just because we got knocked out of Europe... that doesn't really reflect well on the club, and players and their agents will probably know perfectly well what happened.

The rumours where around over the weekend that Donald wasn't coming.

I think we need to get Jackson contract scrapped and sign a decent 10 on a 2 year deal.

Given Keatley seems to have the 10 jersey nailed down at Munster I wouldn't mind seeing Tyler Bleyendaal come North if we can't get Carbury.

clivemcl wrote:Also... if we felt Donald was needed only if we progressed in Europe, and then use a 4 week injury as a 'get-out' just because we got knocked out of Europe... that doesn't really reflect well on the club, and players and their agents will probably know perfectly well what happened.

But maybe Donald's camp had the same feeling and mentioned such in any meetings.... "now let's think about what happens if you guys don't get through to the QFs..........."

Bleyendaals signed through next season and is out injured with a recurring neck injury so not exactly someone we want on board

Getting a top 10 with our current form could become a struggle but in seriousness. For our long term future could a season in the Challenge Cup be a good thing?

On a brighter note, 8 academy players in the Ireland u20 squad plus Mark Keane

The only reason not to trust McPhillips (or Lowry, or Stewart to 9 with Cooney at 10) is the risk of not getting ECC next year.

It'll be to be a cold hearted decision if it's in our hands. It might be the case we just can't find anyone in the short-term.

More generally the injury situation for us is hilarious. We are cursed it seems. Should have been allowed to keep Pienaar in case of emergencies like this.

I say throw the kids in. We could be surprised. McPhillips could bloom with the responsibility.
Is Angus Curtis fit yet?

Curtis is in the u20 6Ns squad so it would seem he's fit, with Marshall coming back is he an option? Or at least have him at 12 to provide some support to a young 10?

marty2086 wrote:

rodders wrote:
Sounds like Donald is not coming now, which is just as well. I say stick with McPhillips and try and build for next season.

Ulster really are a shambles compared to the other provinces.

What happens if McPhillips gets injured rodders?

There is no succession planning and the questionable Donald signing at least appears to have stalled a la Schalk Botha rather than as previously giving guys like Ronald Raaymakers and Tim Boys extended holidays in the province to recuperate - maybe Baldrick is learning?

Ulster had lost the cover of Pienaar and Humphreys for this season so needed another flyhalf as cover for a Jackson injury (never mind the court case). When it became obvious that Jackson would be out all season (a la Coetzee), they panic recruit a short term signing. Rather than deal with the problem they continue to kick the sh!t down the road by repeating the short termism, looking for another sticking plaster at the expense of young player development. When Dai Young picked Marcus Smith, did he care about his age or experience?
It may be better if Ulster don't qualify for next year's ERCC, to allow them a season to consolidate and develop young talent, except that they would totally waste the opportunity and probably fill the squad with ageing has-beens. At Ravenhill the thirty-somethings can 'knock their pan in' and leave everything on the pitch for the occasional heartwarming killing of a European giant, but then need a fortnight to recover from the effort. The inconsistency of the team is completely explainable by the lack of quality depth that can be rotated, and the amount of 'Championship time' left in players like Best, Cave, Henry, Ludik, Bowe and Trimble.
McPhillips may not yet have the bulk required and may indeed get injured, but what are Ulster doing with Herron, Nelson, Lowry and Curtis if not to provide further flyhalf cover for injury?

Donald would have been a lifeline but McPhillips should have had some decent gametime before now and not used a breakglass option.
Using Cooney at ten should be a breakglass option only, he's been our most consistent player this season and should remain at 9 where he's doing the good work. Stick McPhillips in and get on with it, bring Lowry in for some gametime too as the breakglass option if it's one of those we need. It's all we have at this point as regardless of what happens today in the courts (which won't make a difference anyway).

When you think about it we lost Pienaar, Jackson, Olding, Payne and Coetzee, there's a strong spine of any team gone. We as good as lost Cave and Trimble, 2 more very strong elements of the side. Lose all that without suitable backup and any team would start to crumble. It's where Ulster can go from here that'll show if there's any grit left in entire setup.

Im guessing McPhillips was the backup along with Nelson and longer term option while Curtis and Lowry still developed but he wasn't given time before now Pete because he was injured.

We were left in a hole by the case and the fact it was drawn out for so long before decisions were made especially given Jackson was available until he wasn't

McPhillips, Nelson, Herron, Curtis and Bingham were all on the books last season and Ulster had Jackson, Humphreys and Pienaar as their main 10s and cover with Olding as a possible stand-in.
Ulster had lost both Pienaar and Humphreys (2nd and 3rd choice), and only brought Cooney in, (Lowry replaced Bingham in the Academy). So Ulster knowingly went into the season already down a flyhalf, and knowing they would at the very least lose Jackson to Test duty, if not injury, plus the case was hanging over both his and Olding's heads.
If Kiss and Baldrick knew anything about rugby they should have been scouting for a 10 from December 2016, or giving the young pretenders as much experience as possible - if they weren't going to sign anyone. McPhillips could have got invaluable experience last season on the back of his JWC performances, particularly with Pienaar still in the side.