Ireland 6 Nations chat

First topic message reminder :

Geoff on the Ulster thread created a clever analysis on squad depth and I am taking a crack at a similar one for Ireland in advance of the 6 nations:

My assumptions are based on a squad of 36 (not the 40 Joe named last year). Players categories into 4 ratings:

World class = top three in position in world, and/or Lions test starter
International class = would make the team for other tier 1 nations
Below international class - would not make the team for other tier 1 nations
Exciting prospect - show potential to be a real asset

Ideally we have one world class and 2 international class per position.

TH (3)
World class - Furlong
International class - Ryan
Exciting prospect - Porter

Assessment - Drop off after Furlong, but not as steep as with hooker

Hooker (3)
International class - Best, Cronin (instead of Tracy)
Below international class - Herring

Assessment - Our weakest forward position, with a big drop off after Best

LH (3)
World class - McGrath (Lions bench for all three tests, scrapes in here)
International class - Healy, Kilcoyne

Assessment - Most consistently strong position in front row, all three are great players and Healy may well rereach his world class heights in 2018. Add in Moore and its a great position for us

Lock (5)
International class - Henderson, Toner
Below international class - Dillane, Roux (instead of Treadwell)
Exciting prospect - Ryan

Assessment - good first team pair, with some exciting prospects coming through.

Flankers (6)
World class - POM
International class - VDF, Murphy (Instead of TOD, Ruddock and SOB out due to injury)
Exciting prospect - Leavy

Assessment - embarrasment of riches!

No. 8 (2)
International class - Stander, Conan
Assessment - Very strong, with multiple flankers also able to play there

Scrumhalf (3)
World class - Murray
Below international class - Marmion, McGrath

Assessment - big drop off after Murray. Marmion/McGrath neither have been able to fully translate provincial form to ireland

Flyhalf (3)
World class - Sexton
Below international class - Keatley
Exciting prospect - Carberry

Assessment - Sexton staying fit is essential to winning in Twickenham, the drop off after that is huge.

Centers (5)
International class - Henshaw, Aki,
Below international class -  Farrell
Exciting prospect -Scannell (Instead of Ringrose and McCloskey)

Assessment - strong, if not the most exciting group of players.

Wings (5)
International class - Earls
Below international class - Conway, McFadden (Instead of Byrne, Sweetnam)
Exciting prospect - Stockdale

Assessment - some exciting young players coming through, but think Earls will start

Fullback (2)
International class - Kearney
Exciting prospect - Larmour

Assessment - Kearney continues to show his class in the big games and will start 3/4 of the 6 nations, I think Larmour has a good shot of starting the others. TOH if not.

Geoff in fairness the results don't tell the full story.

The issue for Ulster is that dreadful christmas period where apart from coming from behind at home against a 14 man Munster we were way off the other provinces.

The other big thing was failing to qualify for the KO stages in Europe and the manner of failing to do so against Wasps.

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can say we are having a similar season as Munster are.

We are in complete disarray on and off the pitch, whereas Munster actually have managed the change in head coach really well, if anything they look like they are evolving their style of
play and improving.

Also Beirne might just be the best player in Europe right now, so with him signing they have plenty to be positive about, unlike Ulster.

Sin é wrote:Is Keith Earls the fastest player in the 6Ns and not just Ireland? For that try saving tackle v. Italy, he clocked 9.7 m per second on his GPS. His previous personal best was v Castres this year 10.5.  

(From interview in Sunday Times yesterday)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keith-earls-i-take-a-more-chilled-attitude-to-rugby-now-and-it-seems-to-be-working-89jn30jpr

He also has an extraordinary spring in his legs.

Again, he can provide empirical evidence of the spring in his legs. A couple of years ago, he recorded a counter-movement jump (a standing jump in layman’s terms) of 64cm, which is exceptional.

Doug Howlett said he never saw a player with Earls' acceleration.

rodders wrote:Geoff in fairness the results don't tell the full story.

The issue for Ulster is that dreadful christmas period where apart from coming from behind at home against a 14 man Munster we were way off the other provinces.

The other big thing was failing to qualify for the KO stages in Europe and the manner of failing to do so against Wasps.

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can say we are having a similar season as Munster are.

We are in complete disarray on and off the pitch, whereas Munster actually have managed the change in head coach really well, if anything they look like they are evolving their style of
play and improving.

Also Beirne might just be the best player in Europe right now, so with him signing they have plenty to be positive about, unlike Ulster.

rodders if we were to lose 5 more games this season and finish with the 6th highest points total would you call that a disaster?

profitius wrote:

Sin é wrote:Is Keith Earls the fastest player in the 6Ns and not just Ireland? For that try saving tackle v. Italy, he clocked 9.7 m per second on his GPS. His previous personal best was v Castres this year 10.5.  

(From interview in Sunday Times yesterday)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keith-earls-i-take-a-more-chilled-attitude-to-rugby-now-and-it-seems-to-be-working-89jn30jpr

He also has an extraordinary spring in his legs.

Again, he can provide empirical evidence of the spring in his legs. A couple of years ago, he recorded a counter-movement jump (a standing jump in layman’s terms) of 64cm, which is exceptional.

Doug Howlett said he never saw a player with Earls' acceleration.

Was off his face jumping on a car bonnet at the time he said it?

rodders wrote:Geoff in fairness the results don't tell the full story.

The issue for Ulster is that dreadful christmas period where apart from coming from behind at home against a 14 man Munster we were way off the other provinces.

The other big thing was failing to qualify for the KO stages in Europe and the manner of failing to do so against Wasps.

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can say we are having a similar season as Munster are.

We are in complete disarray on and off the pitch, whereas Munster actually have managed the change in head coach really well, if anything they look like they are evolving their style of
play and improving.

Also Beirne might just be the best player in Europe right now, so with him signing they have plenty to be positive about, unlike Ulster.

Never claiming we are playing well or doing as well

Just pointing out that perception is everything and results of the two Provinces are comparable.
My view is Munster have a chance to make the European Final inspite of not being anything special.

All the quality teams - Leinster, Scarlets and Saracens are in the other half of the draw
Also will make the Pro14 playoffs with a home draw - in large part because the best two teams are in the other conference

In both tournaments they would not have to play outside Ireland until the European final.
Somebody in Munster must have been shat on by a dozen albatrosses because they are getting all the luck going fixture wise

profitius wrote:

Sin é wrote:Is Keith Earls the fastest player in the 6Ns and not just Ireland? For that try saving tackle v. Italy, he clocked 9.7 m per second on his GPS. His previous personal best was v Castres this year 10.5.  

(From interview in Sunday Times yesterday)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keith-earls-i-take-a-more-chilled-attitude-to-rugby-now-and-it-seems-to-be-working-89jn30jpr

He also has an extraordinary spring in his legs.

Again, he can provide empirical evidence of the spring in his legs. A couple of years ago, he recorded a counter-movement jump (a standing jump in layman’s terms) of 64cm, which is exceptional.

Doug Howlett said he never saw a player with Earls' acceleration.

Strange. I guess he must never have played against Dave Kearney and Fergus McFadden.

If.....very very big if....we get the bonus point win next week isn't the championship ours?

As long as England fail to get two bonus point wins

carpet baboon wrote:If.....very very big if....we get the bonus point win next week isn't the championship ours?

As long as England fail to get two bonus point wins

So no is the correct answer.

If we win and England lose, then it's ours.... ain't it? Or is me maths too simple again!

SecretFly wrote:If we win and England lose, then it's ours.... ain't it?  Or is me maths too simple again!

Yes.   If Ireland get a win/BP they move to 18/19 points.  England loss even with a LBP would leave them on 10.

The ideal would be Scotland win with a BP and reducing Ireland’s point difference by about 15.   Scotland would then be on 13 match points.   England win against France with/without  a bonus point and they move to 13/14 match points.   Ireland get nothing and remain on 14 match points and a reduced PD.

Final day would be Ita v Scot with Scotland looking for a BP and lots of points difference to set the chase.  They’d finish on maximum 18 match points.

Following that, England and Ireland would be looking for BPs and/or making up points difference with both teams taking points off each other on points difference every time they score.  

That scenario is for the WIFEs only - Welsh, Italian, French and Everyone else.

The Ideal???!!!

Are you mad?

The ideal for me is if Scotland get three red cards in the tunnel before they come out to play, for starting a dirty fight with the Irish. And France run riot over Eddie's marauders, with Farrell, Ford and Itoje getting two week bans for calling the ref a bollix!

SecretFly wrote:The Ideal???!!!

Are you mad?

The ideal for me is if Scotland get three red cards in the tunnel before they come out to play, for starting a dirty fight with the Irish.  And France run riot over Eddie's marauders, with Farrell, Ford and Itoje getting two week bans for calling the ref a bollix!

Err, you didn’t read my last line too well.

..........................well, yes.... but I'm impulsive like Sexton

SecretFly wrote:..........................well, yes.... but I'm impulsive like Sexton

Indeed.   One point to note in your preferred scenario. The ref doesn’t become the ref until he starts the match.  So a few digs by whichever team could not affect the team.  Until afterwards anyway.....

It were but a dream, Pot.  Dreams don't care about rules mostly - at least mine don't.

SecretFly wrote: It were but a dream, Pot.  Dreams don't care about rules mostly - at least mine don't.

Dreams - I remember them well from the pre-Kiwi days. Now it’s all about process and keeping your shape and unaligned defences and using 2-4-2-6 pod shapes in the redzone with naturalised PIs scoring with oh so clever angles and diagonal runs from 1m out.

Yeah............ it's all gone so boringly computerish these days. Oh for the days when Paulie used to sit on top of a rolling maul to give himself a needed break, or when ballboys got paid off to fool a ref or when streakers were good looking and got to show their.............. well, the bloody English police always hid the good bits, damn them!

SecretFly wrote:Yeah............ it's all gone so boringly computerish these days.  Oh for the days when Paulie used to sit on top of a rolling maul to give himself a needed break, or when ballboys got paid off to fool a ref or when streakers were good looking and got to show their.............. well, the bloody English police always hid the good bits, damn them!

I was talking about rugby, not soccer.

carpet baboon wrote:If.....very very big if....we get the bonus point win next week isn't the championship ours?

As long as England fail to get two bonus point wins

Have Glen Jackson officiate your remaining games and you'll get all the bonus points you want.

An over-reaction from Barnes as usual. A red card and two fingers.  Let the game flow, man!

Spoiler:

mikey_dragon wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:If.....very very big if....we get the bonus point win next week isn't the championship ours?

As long as England fail to get two bonus point wins

Have Glen Jackson officiate your remaining games and you'll get all the bonus points you want.

Nigel tried his best up in Scotland. Couldn't have asked any more of the man. But it just wasn't to be. Jackson broke his promise and killed off the entire plan. Never trust a Kiwi.

So chaps - how do you fancy playing Scotland now?

TJ wrote:So chaps - how do you fancy playing Scotland now?

We're realists here, TJ. Never fancied it. Three toughest games were always going to be Wales, Scotland and England. Nothing has changed except one of them is now the past.

I still think Ireland will win. I don't think they will be as generous in giving us the ball as England were and I don't know if Toonie can come up with tactical twists to beat Ireland

Scotland will have their purple moments...so that's when they'll have to attempt what Wales attempted and damn near achieved.
Ireland? Well I don't know. If we play like yesterday, then we'll be more of a challenge to Scotland than England provided. But we have that very frightening defence weakness out on those fringes that I'm sure Townsend will be looking at very closely.
I think both Ireland and Scotland will have their dominant phases of the game. The rest is in the lap of the Gods. Thankfully, much too early to predict. We'll just enjoy the wins for a week first

TJ wrote:So chaps - how do you fancy playing Scotland now?

I thought Scotland were absolute Poopie before the England match, now it looks like they’re a fair to middling good side after all.  Should be a good match trying to see how they’ll stop Ireland coming away with the bonus point win.  And for Ireland to stop conceding more than three tries and throwing away the game.   Every game is a challenge for us, every team wants to beat us, so we’ll just have to take it one game at a time. The Centenary Quaitch is up for grabs, the stakes couldn’t be higher.

Would a mckloskey Farrell midfield be better than aki Farrell?.
In my eyes mckloskey can do everything aki can but has better hands and possibly a bit faster

Give Aki a break guys.  He's getting bedded down and maybe feels the pressure more than some guys.  He has to prove himself in ways that other Irish guys don't.  I can feel that yearning in him - the fitting-in desire.  

I think he'll warm up at this level when he defines how high it gets.  2nd best side in the world away will be another level finder for him.  Indeed Scotland playing hot stuff will be another.

SecretFly wrote:Give Aki a break guys.  He's getting bedded down and maybe feels the pressure more than some guys.  He has to prove himself in ways that other Irish guys don't.  I can feel that yearning in him - the fitting-in desire.  

I think he'll warm up at this level when he defines how high it gets.  2nd best side in the world away will be another level finder for him.  Indeed Scotland playing hot stuff will be another.

I rate aki he's a great player with lots of skill.
Maybe my Ulster bias is showing but I just feel big Choo Choo Stu could be a top class international

Also Stu and Farrell are massive units. The Scottish 10,12 and 13 would be so fecked from tackling them they would have no energy to run around

carpet baboon wrote:Would a mckloskey Farrell midfield be better than aki Farrell?.
In my eyes mckloskey can do everything aki can but has better hands and possibly a bit faster

A fair question.  Haven’t seen Aki do anything exceptional that warrants him an automatic starting spot.  Unless he’s doing things in defence that Schmidt and Farrell like and my inexpert eyes are not seeing.  However, at this point on the road to the RWC, Schmidt may rightly want to get as much game time under Aki’s belt as possible.  It’ll be interesting to see what he decides once he has Henshaw and Ringrose both available to him again.   Having an A/B option for games is no bad thing and they become the likely 4 out of the 31-player RWC squad.

From some discussions I’ve listened to on Off The Ball, Schmidt will use the Australian tour to test/develop some of the younger or outlier players such as:

Porter, Bealham, Kilcoyne
Herring, Scannell, Tracy
Jas Ryan, Roux, Beirne, Dillane
VdF, Leavy, Reidy, Murphy
Conan, O’Donoghue
Marmion, Cooney
Keatley, Carbery, Bleyendaal
McCloskey, Farrell, Aki
Stockdale, Larmour, Conway.

So many truly exciting players.  I don't think I've ever seen lists of Irish players (that one by Pot and the Irish squad list itself for the 6N) jump out at me so much as truly having some lethal potential there if Schmidt cooks them up the right way.  
Ireland look to be in such a good place using that word 'depth'.  Of course you can always probably dispense with 20 or 30% of that depth as they never have much part to play in the long term.  But we're onto something here if we up the tempo - crazy tempo being the new black on the Paris catwalks these days.

carpet baboon wrote:Also Stu and Farrell are massive units. The Scottish 10,12 and 13 would be so fecked from tackling them they would have no energy to run around

If those massive lumps have any energy left to run after chasing the elusive fast wee guys around all game ;-) Scots 10. 12.13 all made good tackles yesterday

TJ wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Also Stu and Farrell are massive units. The Scottish 10,12 and 13 would be so fecked from tackling them they would have no energy to run around

If those massive lumps have any energy left to run after chasing the elusive fast wee guys around all game ;-)  Scots 10. 12.13 all made good tackles yesterday

I know. To be honest playing you lot has been my big fear all tournament. I knew we could do France in Paris, and Wales at home, and although Scotland at home should be a win I'm absolutely bricking it.

I do think you will be fine. I honestly think because of the playing styles England were easier to beat than Ireland would be. You won't be so generous in giving us the ball and won't allow us to control the breakdown

TJ wrote:I do think you will be fine.  I honestly think because of the playing styles England were easier to beat than Ireland would be.  You won't be so generous in giving us the ball and won't allow us to control the breakdown

Yeah I honestly hope we choke the life out of you and don't let you have the ball at all

It our ball and if you don't give it back I'm telling my mum!

TJ wrote:It our ball and if you don't give it back I'm telling my mum!

No it isn't, it's Gilbert's.

Jamie Heaslip has announced his retirement with immediate effect

Time will get us all, but it's cornered me earlier than I hoped.

Every professional sportsperson always hopes to be able leave their chosen sport on their terms but too often that’s not the case.
I have had to take on board the medical advice that I have been given and after talking to Sheena and my family I have taken the difficult decision to retire with immediate effect from playing rugby in order to ensure my future well being.
I’m very proud to finish my career as a one club man having played amongst some of the best in the game, who are all like a family of brothers to me.

My goal when I started my professional career 14 years ago was to leave the the jerseys that I wore in a better place and I hope I have done that.

Thank you to the IRFU, Leinster Rugby, all the coaches, medical staff,back room staff, sponsors, media, supporters and most importantly my wife, family , friends and fellow players for helping me to make my dreams come true.
I’ve had the time of my life on and off the rugby pitch but now its time for the next chapter.

SecretFly wrote:Give Aki a break guys.  He's getting bedded down and maybe feels the pressure more than some guys.  

I think Aki has been excellent. Twice in two games he's come up with big tries and he's added a lot of creativity to the midfield. The defense is a bit shaky but not sure Aki is to blame.

I actually think Farrell at 13 looked more impressive than Henshaw has been and he could well be ahead of both Robbie and Ringrose come the RWC if he keeps up his current form.

McCloskey and Marshall are both in good form too but I don't seem them getting a run unless there are injuries to the 4 guys ahead of them.

Sad to see Heaslip announce his retirement especially due to a cheap shop. Great player.

marty2086 wrote:Jamie Heaslip has announced his retirement with immediate effect

Time will get us all, but it's cornered me earlier than I hoped.

Every professional sportsperson always hopes to be able leave their chosen sport on their terms but too often that’s not the case.
I have had to take on board the medical advice that I have been given and after talking to Sheena and my family I have taken the difficult decision to retire with immediate effect from playing rugby in order to ensure my future well being.
I’m very proud to finish my career as a one club man having played amongst some of the best in the game, who are all like a family of brothers to me.

My goal when I started my professional career 14 years ago was to leave the the jerseys that I wore in a better place and I hope I have done that.

Thank you to the IRFU, Leinster Rugby, all the coaches, medical staff,back room staff, sponsors, media, supporters and most importantly my wife, family , friends and fellow players for helping me to make my dreams come true.
I’ve had the time of my life on and off the rugby pitch but now its time for the next chapter.

Crikey that's a shock. He's almost become the forgotten man such is the depth we have in the back row.

He's a had his dips in form and critics over the years but definitely a genuine world class performer who at several stages in his career was one of the best no8's in the NH if not the world.

Even after he lost his explosive pace, he made up for it with his work rate and excellent ball handling and his control at the base of scrum was as good as anyone.

That's unfortunate that he hasn't been able to go out on his own terms, we was in very good form prior to his injury but long term health comes first.

marty2086 wrote:Jamie Heaslip has announced his retirement with immediate effect

Time will get us all, but it's cornered me earlier than I hoped.

Every professional sportsperson always hopes to be able leave their chosen sport on their terms but too often that’s not the case.
I have had to take on board the medical advice that I have been given and after talking to Sheena and my family I have taken the difficult decision to retire with immediate effect from playing rugby in order to ensure my future well being.
I’m very proud to finish my career as a one club man having played amongst some of the best in the game, who are all like a family of brothers to me.

My goal when I started my professional career 14 years ago was to leave the the jerseys that I wore in a better place and I hope I have done that.

Thank you to the IRFU, Leinster Rugby, all the coaches, medical staff,back room staff, sponsors, media, supporters and most importantly my wife, family , friends and fellow players for helping me to make my dreams come true.
I’ve had the time of my life on and off the rugby pitch but now its time for the next chapter.

Good man, Jamie.  
Sad - like time passing is sad.  A good few players of a certain generation are now hanging up the boots - reminds you of that damn time ticking for all of us.

Great player for us - despite the acres of criticism he's taken in his time..... most hurtful being DOD alluding to the trousers down around his ankles - in the time when trousers down around the ankles were fashionable!
Seemed to be a nice guy too - always smiling and p-iss taking it seems.  There is a video of he and Sexton being interviewed together.  Sexton is shy and intense and the other fella is ribbing him like mad trying to get a reaction.  It's funny.
Good memories, solid player.  Good luck to him with the rest of his life.  He has the head of a man that might be the most successful outside rugby of the lot of them.

Ferris, Wallace and Heaslip. A formidable back row that we didn't get to see often enough.

All the best ones get croked in the end

Won most things you can win including a win over the AllBlacks and even try of the year.

Farrell out of rest of tournament !!!

Which one?

SecretFly wrote:Which one?

Chris.

So thats him, Henshaw and Payne out. Luckily Ringrose is coming back in time but he can't be up to the required level yet.

Fook sake. I guess that opens the door for Ringrose.

Marshall is back fit and playing quite well for Ulster

Aki to 13 Mckloskey to 12?