England Six Nations Thread

[Cumbrian]

First topic message reminder :

Squad (From RFU Website):

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) * **
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Lewis Boyce (Harlequins) *
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) *
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Players unavailable
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Uncapped *
Apprentice player **

Fixtures:

*All kick-off times in GMT.


Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 4th February 2018
Kick Off: 3:00pm

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 10th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

Scotland v England
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Saturday 24th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

France v England
Stade de France, Paris
Saturday 10th March 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 17th March 2018
Kick Off: 2:45pm

Officialdom:

Italy v England

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

England v Wales

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Reynal (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Scotland v England

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

France v England

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

England v Ireland

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

[Sgt_Pooly]

I'd have Itoje down as quicker than Robshaw, although my nan was probably quicker than Robshaw to be fair.

To me, out locks are much better than backrow options at the minute. If we go with a trio of Kruis, Launchbury and Itoje, I think that covers a lot of bases.

[Nottswasp]

Oh yeah our second row stocks are certainly better right now than the back row depth.

You do look at the constant battering the back row gets from carrying and tackling...and wonder if they are more prone to injury with the way we expect them to play?

[propdavid_london]

Sgt_Is Kruis in enough form to come straight in as a starter?
I haven't seen the Saints-Sarries game of the weekend. Did Lawes not have a good game?

[No 7&1/2]

Well the back row balance and that to the pack hasn't been as good when Lawes or Itoje have been there. Robshaw is a country mile better at 6 than both of them and to start with at least underhill is very likely to start at 7 with I suspect simmonds given a chance.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Kruis has looked good since getting some fitness back after the AI. He's easily out best lineout operator and works superbly in tandem with Itoje, I'd have him ahead of Lawes personally.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Well the back row balance and that to the pack hasn't been as good when Lawes or Itoje have been there. Robshaw is a country mile better at 6 than both of them and to start with at least underhill is very likely to start at 7 with I suspect simmonds given a chance.

I don't think he is. He's a handy player in the backrow but I wouldn't say he's that much better than the other two, certainly Itoje. As much as I don't rate Robshaw, I would look to start him currently as he's an experienced player and this can be vital with a few newbies in the backrow.

[No 7&1/2]

I know you don't really rate Robshaw. I don't know why though. Quality player.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Didn't mean that actually, I meant at the top level. He's a steady Int player and always gives 100%.

[No 7&1/2]

Ha. Yes and I did mean rate at that high level. I do find the thought of lawes or Itoje seriously challenging him at 6 far fetched though. And as I said I think underhill is going to be 7 so it would be a choice of Robshaw at 6 or not at all.

[Scottrf]

Sgt_Is Kruis in enough form to come straight in as a starter?
I haven't seen the Saints-Sarries game of the weekend.  Did Lawes not have a good game?

Completely anonymous.

[LondonTiger]

Sgt_Is Kruis in enough form to come straight in as a starter?
I haven't seen the Saints-Sarries game of the weekend.  Did Lawes not have a good game?

Completely anonymous.

In fact you might say invisible?

[lostinwales]

I think I saw a quote recently where Lawes admitted that he was struggling for form. It is a shame as he was very good last summer and autumn.

Re: future England captain. I suggested Mercer because I think his leadership is a real positive. In the JWC performances he was always talking to the team and his presence just seemed to make a real difference.

We currently have a captain whose current form does not suggest he's the best in his position, but Eddie wants him there because of this 'leadership' thing. I am sure Itoje would make a fine captain but I would be happier if we can just let him do his all action normal thing and give it to someone who could actually make that difference.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I'd be happy with Kruis starting, he's been playing better than Lawes for me and adds set piece and physicality in the tight. Lawes adds great impact, any of the 4 could realistically start though.

[propdavid_london]

Glad that Kruis is getting form back - always tricky following injury and he didn't have the best of the Lions tour.
Gives us more options and does open up the door for Itoje or Lawes to cover back row if needed as Eddie wouldn't have to worry about who steps into the engine room.

[Scottrf]

I think I saw a quote recently where Lawes admitted that he was struggling for form. It is a shame as he was very good last summer and autumn.

I think he was being modest. He's maybe a step down from where he was at the start of the season but still playing very well in a useless team.

[LondonTiger]

PS, for those unaware Lawes did not play at the weekend.

[Poorfour]

I'd have Itoje down as quicker than Robshaw, although my nan was probably quicker than Robshaw to be fair.

To me, out locks are much better than backrow options at the minute. If we go with a trio of Kruis, Launchbury and Itoje, I think that covers a lot of bases.

In any given carry or sprint, I'd be pretty sure Itoje is quicker than Robshaw - which is why I said over the course of a game. However he gets there, Robshaw is in the right place at the right time to intervene in the game more often than any player in international rugby apart from Pocock. One of the Aussie sites analysed it around the RWC, and the only England players on a similar level for interventions/minute were the impact subs - who only have to do it for 20-30 minutes and not the full 80.

Since then, Eddie has asked all the players to up the effort and finally found Robshaw's breaking point (at the end of one of the Aussie tour games he explained with evident glee that he had to sub him because he could barely stand).

Itoje has many great qualities, but maintaining that level of effort over 80 minutes isn't one of them, as we saw last 6 Nations. He's ruthless rather than relentless, and is better used at lock.

If Kruis is coming back into form, then I think Itoje/Kruis in the second row with Launchbury on the bench, plus Robshaw / Underhill / Simmonds + Mercer would be the best combination. It's a big ask for Simmonds, but we will find out which of him and Mercer is readier to take the step up. If we're lucky, it'll be both of them.

There's also Eddie's stated aim of wanting to play a much faster game than we have in the past. If he's serious about it, now's the time to go all in on it, because he's short of big lumps to slow things down. It carries risks, but it means that England get 5 more games to practice that style of play and add it to the kitbag before the Autumn. If we go into the AIs with the option of a power running game based around Billy, Hughes and Te'o or a high tempo one based around Simmonds or Mercer (or even Clifford, if he can stay fit) then we are in a good place.

[propdavid_london]

The key is being able to change style of play in the middle of a game to completely throw the opposition out...

[ChequeredJersey]

Well the back row balance and that to the pack hasn't been as good when Lawes or Itoje have been there. Robshaw is a country mile better at 6 than both of them and to start with at least underhill is very likely to start at 7 with I suspect simmonds given a chance.

I don't think he is. He's a handy player in the backrow but I wouldn't say he's that much better than the other two, certainly Itoje. As much as I don't rate Robshaw, I would look to start him currently as he's an experienced player and this can be vital with a few newbies in the backrow.

I really don’t understand how you can watch Robshaw play 6, then Lawes or Itoje (or any other option but esp these 2) play 6 at any level and not think Robshaw is much much better in that position.

I mean, you’re entitled to that opinion, but it continues to baffle me.

I believe that Robshaw is world class at 6. Now people will say it’s because I’m a Robshaw fan, but that’s reversed- I’m a fan of Robshaw’s rugby because I think he’s excellent not vice versa. And though I am a Quins fan- 1) trust me I don’t think this way about all of our players! And 2) it just means I actually see Robshaw play a lot more than most people.

He can do absolutely anything you ask your 6 to do, and do it better than most international 6s

[Sgt_Pooly]

I'm equally completely baffled when people rate him as World class, he's absolutely nowhere near that level.

He's perfectly average at most aspects of the game and isn't really a 6 in the typical mould imo.

What he does do which other players of his average skill set don't do is (and I've seen this mentioned a lot) read a game extremley well. He's got a good rugby brain and allows him to raise himself somewhat from mediocrity.

[beshocked]

I don't think Robshaw has got an X factor but he's very workman like. I you have sufficient X factor players surrounding him he's great but IMO England are missing that stardust in the backrow, especially with Billy out.

When Haskell was in beast mode and an in form Billy - the backrow was much better but we are missing that now.

You need players who will shoulder the carrying burden to get the best out of Robshaw because he's not a heavy duty carrier.

Robshaw is reliable and you'll know he'll always give his all. He's an useful player for England but I agree with Sgt Pooly.


Agree with Cumbrian Simmonds looked very impressive on the weekend vs Glasgow.

I'd certainly start Simmonds vs Italy.

[cascough]

I'm equally completely baffled when people rate him as World class, he's absolutely nowhere near that level.

He's perfectly average at most aspects of the game and isn't really a 6 in the typical mould imo.

What he does do which other players of his average skill set don't do is (and I've seen this mentioned a lot) read a game extremley well. He's got a good rugby brain and allows him to raise himself somewhat from mediocrity.

Personally think you're underplaying his skillset. I think his hands are excellent. But even so, all the skills in the world aren't gonna do you any favours if you make bad decisions, and as you've alluded to, Robshaw is an excellent decision maker. I reckon a player with 6/10 skills doing the right thing 9 times out of 10 is more effective than a player who has 9/10 skills but does the wrong thing nearly half the time (or to put it another way, does the right thing 6 out of 10 times).

Whilst maybe not eye catching (because he's not fast or explosive) I personally think Robshaw is one of the most effective flankers in the world, surpassed only by Jerome Kaino and David Pocock. There are others who I could accept people have their opinions and people can make cases for Warburton, Cane et al. Then there's a group I think is based on romanticism and eye catching moments rather than how much they actually effect a game, Moriarty, Hooper, for example (btw, I'm not saying I think any of those are bad players, but in the pantheon of test rugby, there will always be some who are good, some who are very good, and some who are excellent). Perhaps more to the point, fellow pros and Eddie Jones agree. And for that reason, he will continue to be selected.

[cascough]

I don't think Robshaw has got an X factor but he's very workman like. I you have sufficient X factor players surrounding him he's great but IMO England are missing that stardust in the backrow, especially with Billy out.

.

I've seen a lecture given by Eddie Jones (whilst England boss) and he said (out of 15) he's searching for 13 guys who will give him 8/10 every week. And then he wants 2 who will maybe be 5 or 6/10 one week, but 9 or 10/10 the next week. Robshaw is going nowhere.

[Scottrf]

When was the last time Dan Cole or Mike Brown gave an 8/10 for England? Even Hartley.

I think we have quite a few who give 6 or 7.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I don't think Robshaw has got an X factor but he's very workman like. I you have sufficient X factor players surrounding him he's great but IMO England are missing that stardust in the backrow, especially with Billy out.

.

I've seen a lecture given by Eddie Jones (whilst England boss) and he said (out of 15) he's searching for 13 guys who will give him 8/10 every week. And then he wants 2 who will maybe be 5 or 6/10 one week, but 9 or 10/10 the next week. Robshaw is going nowhere.

For now....we need better. EJ didn't rate Robshaw before he took over, now hes apparently one of his first picks. I think hes just realise we dont have any particularly great flankers in England compared to most other nations.

[Sgt_Pooly]

When was the last time Dan Cole or Mike Brown gave an 8/10 for England? Even Hartley.

I think we have quite a few who give 6 or 7.

Agree Scott...standards are slipping off and the old guard need replacing soon. Robshaw is normally around a 6/7 for me, rarely an 8.

[cascough]

When was the last time Dan Cole or Mike Brown gave an 8/10 for England? Even Hartley.

I think we have quite a few who give 6 or 7.

Maybe, but Robshaw is definitely the type of guy Jones is after, so he's going nowhere.

[No 7&1/2]

This only becomes a real talking point if people think underhill isn't going to be picked. Thought he was very good in an underwhelming team performance last week. Didnt see baths run out vs benneton was he poor?

[cascough]

This only becomes a real talking point if people think underhill isn't going to be picked. Thought he was very good in an underwhelming team performance last week. Didnt see baths run out vs benneton was he poor?

How's that? If Underhill isn't picked it'll be Robshaw in at 7.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Robshaw is in for his experience at this stage, must like Hartley. They're not great players but they're doing a decent job for the team, I get that.

[ChequeredJersey]

When was the last time Dan Cole or Mike Brown gave an 8/10 for England? Even Hartley.

I think we have quite a few who give 6 or 7.

Brown would be Argentina 2017 summer tour...

[ChequeredJersey]

I don't think Robshaw has got an X factor but he's very workman like. I you have sufficient X factor players surrounding him he's great but IMO England are missing that stardust in the backrow, especially with Billy out.

.

I've seen a lecture given by Eddie Jones (whilst England boss) and he said (out of 15) he's searching for 13 guys who will give him 8/10 every week. And then he wants 2 who will maybe be 5 or 6/10 one week, but 9 or 10/10 the next week. Robshaw is going nowhere.

For now....we need better. EJ didn't rate Robshaw before he took over, now hes apparently one of his first picks. I think hes just realise we dont have any particularly great flankers in England compared to most other nations.

Or he changed his opinion once he actually watched him regularly and coached him?

[cascough]

When was the last time Dan Cole or Mike Brown gave an 8/10 for England? Even Hartley.

I think we have quite a few who give 6 or 7.

Agree Scott...standards are slipping off and the old guard need replacing soon. Robshaw is normally around a 6/7 for me, rarely an 8.

Actually, watching the talk again, he wants 13 players who give him 7/10 and 2 "x factor players" who might play 4/10 one week and be brilliant the next. Says you can't have too many of those or you will be too inconsistent. Don't get too bogged down in the numbers though, what he's describing makes sense, and it's clear Robshaw is a big part of that (rather than a stopgap as has been suggested).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-btm103ZXN4

Also describes Wales as "this little sh*t place". Lolz.

[beshocked]

Robshaw adds more than Hartley IMO plus doesn't have another 6 warranting selection ahead of him.

England have a lot of injuries in the backrow.

Hartley has been solid for England but he plods along, he's sluggish and lacks dynamism even if his set piece is generally solid he's not going to do something to change a game on a knife edge.

If England really wants to progress in terms of moving the ball with pace and power, the likes of Brown and Hartley need easing out.

I am a bit unsure about Robshaw, I think he's fine if 7 and 8 had top quality options.

[No 7&1/2]

Because the likleihood of underhill not starting is remote. Thus the discussion is Robshaw or lawes pr Itoje at 6. No contest.

[ChequeredJersey]

Robshaw is currently inked in on the team sheet, we struggled without him and Jones actively said he’s one of the lynchpins of The side

[beshocked]

Well there's no one really challenging Robshaw in the backrow.

It's an area that other sides can target at the moment.


Underhill has no real competition for 7 either.

Still far off the holy trinity.

[cascough]

Well there's no one really challenging Robshaw in the backrow.

It's an area that other sides can target at the moment.

That would be a "Non sequitur"

[No 7&1/2]

Considering we have such average players at 2 6 7 9 10 12 13 and 15 according to various posters the other sides must be dog dirt!

[cascough]

And 3.

[beshocked]

no 7 & 1/2 well every side have their strengths and weaknesses.

England are particularly strong at lock. Over 80 minutes are better than most sides because they can bring on people who can make a bigger impact.

You don't think there's room for improvement?

[Poorfour]

For now....we need better. EJ didn't rate Robshaw before he took over, now hes apparently one of his first picks. I think hes just realise we dont have any particularly great flankers in England compared to most other nations.

Or he changed his opinion once he actually watched him regularly and coached him?[/quote]

I think the original quote was "Mate, I was writing a newspaper column. I may have been a bit naughty." Eddie the pundit had one opinion; Eddie the coach has consistently expressed a very different one in both words and action.

In terms of the overall squad, Eddie hasn't been afraid to try new players and keep them or drop them depending on how they go. Look at Paul Hill. Remember him? He also hasn't been afraid to drop experienced players from the squad, both at the outset (reportedly his call to Tom Wood went "You're not in my squad because you're not good enough, and you haven't been good enough for two years") and over the last two years (Alex Goode got two games in the 2016 6N; Haskell was very conspicuous by his Autumn 2016 absence).

So the players he picks consistently regardless of fan criticism are clearly doing something that he wants them to do and that no-one else is doing better. Eddie's been clear that barring injury, bans or a drop off in England form Hartley is his captain through 2019. He also keeps picking Robshaw and Brown whenever they are fit despite the availability of players that some fans like more, and despite their perceived faults. Under Eddie, England with Robshaw have on average had a 4.7 points better points difference than England without him.

If England were losing, there might be a case to challenge selection. As it is, they are winning - not always comfortably, but that tends to correlate quite strongly with injuries to preferred players.

[lostinwales]

Robshaw adds more than Hartley IMO plus doesn't have another 6 warranting selection ahead of him.

England have a lot of injuries in the backrow.

Hartley has been solid for England but he plods along, he's sluggish and lacks dynamism even if his set piece is generally solid he's not going to do something to change a game on a knife edge.

If England really wants to progress in terms of moving the ball with pace and power, the likes of Brown and Hartley need easing out.

I am a bit unsure about Robshaw, I think he's fine if 7 and 8 had top quality options.

I think it is worth turning this around a little. Playing Robshaw means that top quality 7's and 8's can focus more on the top quality eye catching things that they can do because Robshaw will do everything else.

Some players are good in their own right. Some players help to get the best out of the players around them.

[No 7&1/2]

Not much immediate improvement but overall yes. This group of players has huge potential as players like underhill Mercer etc bed in and gain experience they should get better. As ever it's about identifying the players jones wants giving them time to develop. A few of these players are in their early stages of their careers so lack a little bit of consistency great time to be an England fan.

[beshocked]

Poorfour best to make the changes IMO now than wait until a loss.

I know there's the well we're winning even if certain players are below par so leave them in..... but I think that's illogical.

If certain players aren't good enough, get them out, replace them with superior performing ones.

Some of the performances have been poor despite being victories.


I don't mind sticking with Robshaw, at least in the short term whilst Simmonds is tried at 8.

[No 7&1/2]

A loss doesn't mean the end of the world. A defeat or 2 will come it's inevitable. Surely the whole point should be to integrate players and give them enough opportunity to flourish. As you've said the team which you think is most likely to get a result didn't include many if any changes so bit sure what changes you'd look at. And of course the changes may bring about a defeat and where does that lead you?

[Poorfour]

And you think that Eddie doesn't think that's illogical? That he's hanging on to sub-par players because he can't think of anything better to do?

This is the thing. We have a coach who has a decades long reputation for being ruthless at discarding players, who now has access to the largest player pool in the world, has far more experience as a top international coach than all but a tiny handful of elite coaches, and has tons of of data on player actions and fitness that we don't have...

...and is somehow missing things that we think are obvious?

Or is he just looking for different things than you are?

[carpet baboon]

And you think that Eddie doesn't think that's illogical? That he's hanging on to sub-par players because he can't think of anything better to do?

This is the thing. We have a coach who has a decades long reputation for being ruthless at discarding players, who now has access to the largest player pool in the world, has far more experience as a top international coach than all but a tiny handful of elite coaches, and has tons of of data on player actions and fitness that we don't have...

...and is somehow missing things that we think are obvious?

Or is he just looking for different things than you are?

What this guy said

[Sgt_Pooly]

I don't think Robshaw has got an X factor but he's very workman like. I you have sufficient X factor players surrounding him he's great but IMO England are missing that stardust in the backrow, especially with Billy out.

.

I've seen a lecture given by Eddie Jones (whilst England boss) and he said (out of 15) he's searching for 13 guys who will give him 8/10 every week. And then he wants 2 who will maybe be 5 or 6/10 one week, but 9 or 10/10 the next week. Robshaw is going nowhere.

For now....we need better. EJ didn't rate Robshaw before he took over, now hes apparently one of his first picks. I think hes just realise we dont have any particularly great flankers in England compared to most other nations.

Or he changed his opinion once he actually watched him regularly and coached him?

Once he realised he was stuck with him I guess. Him was hugely critical of Robshaw and T Youngs.....luckily we have better hookers!

[ChequeredJersey]

We have a ton of other flankers, many lauded by many fans here, several of whom have been tried and yet not adopted. 

But this is a fairly pointless discussion. Those who don’t rate players like Robshaw haven’t changed their mind in face of current evidence- it’s hard to expect anyone to change their mind in face of argument or any future actions by the player. It’s fair enough. I find it deeply frustrating but it hardly affects my life, it’s mostly because I’m opinionated. I feel the opposite way about several other players, some whom I think are limited and some whom I think are overrated show ponies who don’t actually make their team play better. We are all going to have these conflicting views on certain players- I guess that’s where the players with universal acclaim like McCaw, Itoje at lock, etc, are exceptional, that they unite the views of people with some very different ideas about what rugby is about

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