England Six Nations Thread

by Cumbrian Thu 18 Jan - 11:31

First topic message reminder :

Squad (From RFU Website):

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) * **
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Lewis Boyce (Harlequins) *
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) *
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Players unavailable
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Uncapped *
Apprentice player **

Fixtures:

*All kick-off times in GMT.

Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 4th February 2018
Kick Off: 3:00pm

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 10th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

Scotland v England
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Saturday 24th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

France v England
Stade de France, Paris
Saturday 10th March 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 17th March 2018
Kick Off: 2:45pm

Officialdom:

Italy v England

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

England v Wales

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Reynal (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Scotland v England

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

France v England

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

England v Ireland

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

by SecretFly Mon 29 Jan - 9:25

Maybe he just felt the 'conventional' methods and timeframes around treatment of injuries were not for him (even with the money and the resources RFU could throw at it) - and that he simply wanted and required a more quickfire method.
ie. England could afford to do without him (lotsa players so follow procedures) but he couldn't afford to do without England (when you is gone for too long, you run the risk of being forgotten and overtaken)

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 9:45

Sounds like his club and England were willing to pay for the agreed treatment and rehab but te'o wanted. to get away and have some tailored purely for himself.

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/11225072/ben-teo-in-contention-to-face-italy-in-six-nations-after-funding-his-own-rehab

by propdavid_london Mon 29 Jan - 10:07

Good on T'eo. If he is fit and firing then I have no problem with him being selected as he will bring that bit of physicality that we may well need at the right time. Something to change the game like we saw in his earlier appearances off the bench.

In a long list of injuries and unavailability due to suspensions I would take this as a positive.

I am sure that COS is planning something special and lets hope that England will be able to adapt quickly to any 'special tactics' that might be employed.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 29 Jan - 10:14

I think Austin Healey paid for his own treatment when he tried to get fit for the 2003 World Cup.

I suppose not all options will be covered by insurance, so that might be a factor. Manu Tuilagi was reported to have seen a witch doctor in Samoa, which I don't think it on Bupa's approved list. Here, it sounds like he just wanted familiar faces, and a familiar location, which is understandable.

by SecretFly Mon 29 Jan - 10:14

propdavid_london wrote:Good on T'eo. If he is fit and firing then I have no problem with him being selected as he will bring that bit of physicality that we may well need at the right time. Something to change the game like we saw in his earlier appearances off the bench.

In a long list of injuries and unavailability due to suspensions I would take this as a positive.

I am sure that COS is planning something special and lets hope that England will be able to adapt quickly to any 'special tactics' that might be employed.

Lightening doesn't strike twice. Conor used up all his 'surprise!!!!' bullets in his first 6N. He'll be far too busy trying to stop a tsunami to be thinking about doing anything smart to fool England again.

Nope. I really think Italy is going to be run over by a steamroller this time. Farewell and adieu...........................

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 10:19

This will welcome trolling but....I hope that italy just turn up to play the game normally and not just to spoil in a way which for me infringed on the spirit of the laws and game.

by SecretFly Mon 29 Jan - 10:23

No 7&1/2 wrote:This will welcome trolling but....I hope that italy just turn up to play the game normally and not just to spoil in a way which for me infringed on the spirit of the laws and game.

You can't blame O'Shea for coaching a trick he thought might last for one or two stints. It was England's slow reaction to it that made a newsworthy spectacle out of it. O'Shea never dreamed his trick would linger so long in the game and had it been neutralised quicker (England's job) then nobody would even be referencing it today.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 10:26

Yes well we'll differ on the outcome as previous sides did exactly what england initially did and were allowed to get away with it. Poite also made several errors in interpretation or at least was not consistent. Obviously led wr to acknowledge it was an impossible job to ref as laws were written and led t the change. While I acknowledge cos and italy came up with a cynical plan who worked to keep england just achieving a bonus point win I prefer not to see it again.

by propdavid_london Mon 29 Jan - 10:40

I would prefer the Italy game to be a bit of a close affair. I don't want this England side getting complacent or overconfident - a bit of a scare in the first game should be enough to blow cobwebs away and keep them focused.

Also, if your going to have a bad game I would rather it be in one that you can still win.

by SecretFly Mon 29 Jan - 10:43

A cynical plan is in the eyes of the beholder. Rugby is full of cynical plans.

Eddie himself referenced the point recently that he needs/wants his players to play as close to the edge of the rules as possible.... and mentioned McCaw as a player that was a perfect blueprint for his boys.... that dark area between legal and stepping into cynical repetitive tricks that might fool a loose ref. He even said he has refs in to presumably talk about a demonstrate the EXACT edge so that his players have a perfect understanding of where it is at all times. I assume his meaning is always to hint at that place just beyond the edge as a place he's interested in?

by Cumbrian Mon 29 Jan - 10:46

To be honest Italy should (and will) approach the game in any way they want, within the rules of the game. It is not for us England fans to try to dictate to them. People say that it was clever by O'Shea and perhaps it was, but I think it was a rigid lack of thinking from England that allowed them to do it for as long as they did. I guess it is still one of the criticisms I have of senior English teams, they sometimes don't play what is in front of them, they try to run to a script (this isn't so much the case with the age grade teams).

Speaking of the age grade teams, the squad for the U20s match against Italy has been announced:

Backs

Rory Brand (London Irish), Will Butler (Worcester Warriors), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints)*, James Grayson (Northampton Saints), Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers)*, Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), Ben Loader (London Irish)*, Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers)*, Tom Parton (London Irish), Ben White (Leicester Tigers)*.

Forwards

Beck Cutting (Worcester Warriors)*, Josh Basham (London Irish)*, Ben Earl (Saracens), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)*, Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors), Dino Lamb (Harlequins) , Sam Lewis (Leicester Tigers)*, Sam Moore (Sale Sharks)*, Joe Morris (Worcester Warriors), Gabriel Oghre (Wasps)*, James Scott (Worcester Warriors)*, Alex Seville (Gloucester), Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs), Toby Trinder (Northampton Saints)*, Henry Walker (Gloucester), Tom Willis (Wasps)*

It is a shame one of the Curry twins isn't available because we could have had the best U20s back row we've had in a long time with

06. Ben Earl
07. Tom Curry
08. Tom Willis

In fact, this cohort has potentially the best pack that England have had in a few years. I don't know as much about the backs, perhaps somebody else could comment?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 10:50

But you would also have to surely agree that the laws were not intentioned to be interpreted like that it was clear that a continuous push on this area exposed the ref to a set of decisions which normally are taken for granted and a lot of which he got wrong. So while I at the time said fair play they kept the score down to a sound thrashing I felt it was unfair on the ref and low and behold there was a change to reflect a law that the vast majority were playing to 99 percent of the time anyway. We could dig out the original thread but my hope was that come.Sunday we're just talking about how the game went rather than discussing relatively obscure interpretations.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 29 Jan - 11:02

Variety of interesting articles read this weekend (sadly all behind paywalls):

Itoje - raring to go but states he cannot replace BillyV's carrying
Mako - Accepts has scrummaging needs to improve
Ford - Talking about his role models, discusses that he is not running as much as he did when first in the team and that is an area he must improve

by BamBam Mon 29 Jan - 11:09

Thought the Itoje comments were interesting. From what I saw of him in the U20s, he was a dominant carrier, its probably the only bit of his game I think he could improve on.

He still ties in defenders, but would like to see him smashing through 1 man tackles like say, Retallick will do more often than not

by Scottrf Mon 29 Jan - 11:12

Much easier to be a dominant carrier age grade. You're not facing 6 foot 5 18 stone behemoths all over the place.

by BamBam Mon 29 Jan - 11:13

Agreed, but think he's got the physical tools to be able to do it, is it just a matter of technique? He looks to get a bit upright at times to me

by **LondonTiger** Mon 29 Jan - 11:14

Cumbrian wrote:
In fact, this cohort has potentially the best pack that England have had in a few years. I don't know as much about the backs, perhaps somebody else could comment?

Looking at the three Leicester backs:

Ben White - youngest player to play for Tigers first team, and second youngest ever to play in the AP. Perhaps a nuts and bolts SH with very solid basics, but maybe not as much running as we have grown to expect from scrum halves.

Tom Hardwick - Promising 18yo fly half. Father was a Coventry stalwart at prop (1 cap I think). Started for us in A/W cup away to Bath and demonstrated very good all round skills. Reputation as an excellent goal kicker.

Jordan Olowofelo - exciting player who can play anywhere in the outside backs. Possesses pace, strength and no shortage of skill. Man of the Match in this weekends win over Cardiff.

by SecretFly Mon 29 Jan - 11:15

LondonTiger wrote:Variety of interesting articles read this weekend (sadly all behind paywalls):

Itoje - raring to go but states he cannot replace BillyV's carrying
Mako - Accepts has scrummaging needs to improve
Ford - Talking about his role models, discusses that he is not running as much as he did when first in the team and that is an area he must improve

Exactly. There was a time in the old wild west of internet days (the classic days of real unbridled web 'freedom') when you could roam the plains and get what you want. Now, the law has come and with it the settlers and the damn sheep farmers....... and wire!
Paywalls. "If you really really really want to hear what we have to say, then pay us!" Pay you? Real money? On the web? Are you having a laugh? I really really really do want to hear what you have to say but *yawn* - I'll just go elsewhere to do my rugby reading instead.

by beshocked Mon 29 Jan - 12:03

LondonTiger wrote:Variety of interesting articles read this weekend (sadly all behind paywalls):

Itoje - raring to go but states he cannot replace BillyV's carrying
Mako - Accepts has scrummaging needs to improve
Ford - Talking about his role models, discusses that he is not running as much as he did when first in the team and that is an area he must improve

Good to hear.

If only other England players followed suit..... acknowledging areas they need to improve.... Whistle

It's the players who are under most pressure who don't want to seem to acknowledge that....

by Scottrf Mon 29 Jan - 12:13

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-5073161/England-improve-Argentina-win.html

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 12:23

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/23/mike-brown-rugby-world-cup-2019-england

I assume you mean brown beshocked?

by cascough Mon 29 Jan - 12:38

SecretFly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:This will welcome trolling but....I hope that italy just turn up to play the game normally and not just to spoil in a way which for me infringed on the spirit of the laws and game.

You can't blame O'Shea for coaching a trick he thought might last for one or two stints. It was England's slow reaction to it that made a newsworthy spectacle out of it. O'Shea never dreamed his trick would linger so long in the game and had it been neutralised quicker (England's job) then nobody would even be referencing it today.

My frustration is that when people do reference it, they do so incorrectly.

England adapted to it almost immediately. If you look at the match clock it took 6 minutes from the first instance of it to England starting to pick and go. From then on in, England changed to either picking and going, offloading in contact, or whipping the ball straight away before any Italy players could get in their faces. The half time myth is just that, helped by a gleeful soundbite from Haskell that is in itself misrepresented. Remember, Haskell had encountered (and Wasps had used) this tactic before. He was merely trying to ascertain why Poite's definition of a ruck differed from a previous referees. England's biggest problem, is that their execution of basic skills fell away. Handling errors were terrible, passing was dire, contact skills were poor, unforced error after unforced error. The reason Italy weren't dead and buried at half time was England played very poorly. Nothing to do with Italy's tactics.

I also don't think that O'Shea planned to only use the tactic once or twice. Remember, they had planned to use the tactic differently right up until the evening before the game. It was that evening that they found out World Rugby had tweaked the law only that week. They were no longer allowed to sack the scrum half (as they had planned to) and gave serious consideration to abandoning the tactic altogether.

by beshocked Mon 29 Jan - 12:51

Yes Brown specifically but you have players who talk about the team, not themselves.

Brown shows no humility in the article, no mention of the flaws in his game.

It's just Jones is picking me so that's that etc.

Talking about the "team" isn't talking about what "you" as an individual can improve.

So when it goes wrong - it's the team's fault but when it's all rosy?.... It's down to that individual....

cascough England didn't react immediately. You had an embarrassing situation where Haskell was acting as Hartley's interpreter.

Also another situation of a captain not leading by example, which is why Haskell had to act.

Haskell was the scapegoat, he gets the blame for someone else's failings.

I think it's nice that you have the likes of Ford,Itoje and Mako admitting they have work to do individually.

If other players didn't give the impression they are resting on their laurels... well... they might be under less pressure.

by Scottrf Mon 29 Jan - 12:57

It's cute that you think that you're putting pressure on them. Pretty sure Hartley and Brown listen to Eddie not you.

by SecretFly Mon 29 Jan - 12:58

cascough wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:This will welcome trolling but....I hope that italy just turn up to play the game normally and not just to spoil in a way which for me infringed on the spirit of the laws and game.

You can't blame O'Shea for coaching a trick he thought might last for one or two stints. It was England's slow reaction to it that made a newsworthy spectacle out of it. O'Shea never dreamed his trick would linger so long in the game and had it been neutralised quicker (England's job) then nobody would even be referencing it today.

My frustration is that when people do reference it, they do so incorrectly.

England adapted to it almost immediately. If you look at the match clock it took 6 minutes from the first instance of it to England starting to pick and go. From then on in, England changed to either picking and going, offloading in contact, or whipping the ball straight away before any Italy players could get in their faces. The half time myth is just that, helped by a gleeful soundbite from Haskell that is in itself misrepresented. Remember, Haskell had encountered (and Wasps had used) this tactic before. He was merely trying to ascertain why Poite's definition of a ruck differed from a previous referees. England's biggest problem, is that their execution of basic skills fell away. Handling errors were terrible, passing was dire, contact skills were poor, unforced error after unforced error. The reason Italy weren't dead and buried at half time was England played very poorly. Nothing to do with Italy's tactics.

I also don't think that O'Shea planned to only use the tactic once or twice. Remember, they had planned to use the tactic differently right up until the evening before the game. It was that evening that they found out World Rugby had tweaked the law only that week. They were no longer allowed to sack the scrum half (as they had planned to) and gave serious consideration to abandoning the tactic altogether.

My frustration is that when people do reference it, they do so incorrectly.

I never said half time. I said a long time. It did take a long time for England to get a grip of what the Italians were doing or else, like I said earlier, we wouldn't be here talking about the O'Shea ploy now. Whether Haskell was confused by the Italians or confused by the ref.... he was confused and the English team were rattled that they weren't commanding the rhythm in that earlier part of the game.

I suppose then, that O'Shea's tactic had done its job....for a bit.... as was always the intention when Italy play the giant of a rugby Union side that is England. The malarkey worked for a while at unsettling the English. Is that so difficult a little thing to give to Italy and O'Shea? England then went on an won the damn thing anyway like was never a bloody doubt and all Wink

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 13:00

So each player needs to come out and say this is what's wrong in my game specifically. It's pretty obvious jones gives each and every player directions.

I agree cascough though I think the confusion passed on by Poite still left plenty of instances where confusion of how he was interpreting it followed. Haskell had also encounter in nz and queried why the same interpretation was not being used. You also had instances where Poite called maul when it was a tackle only and vice versa. As I said clever tactic cynical and led to a refresh of the laws. Hoping to see a clear cut game.

by beshocked Mon 29 Jan - 13:15

Scottrf I am not vain enough to think it's me personally putting pressure on Brown or Hartley.

It's the players who could replace them and the criticisms from the media which pile on the pressure.

no 7 & 1/2 not necessarily but you'd think 2 of the ones under the most pressure might....

Not as if Ford,Mako and Itoje are fringe England players but acknowledge they have to work on things.

It's good.

Ford has started every game under Jones - yet he knows he must keep performing.

I'd hope someone like Launchbury if interviewed would talk about needing to work on his game.

I want England to be in the best in the world, they won't reach it if players who continue to be picked don't strive to work on their flaws and don't actively acknowledge them!

I find it refreshing knowing Itoje realises his carrying needs work. Yes I do think it's important.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 13:19

I think it's up to the individual myself. They all know what they need to do. As I expressed when I posted a link on vunipola I was a little surprised he's come out and said it even though his form in the scrum has been poor. The reason I'm surprised at that is he's brought more attention to it. Some players will like to name their problem and own it some will like to quietly get on with it. Players like Launchbury will just keep picking up the international motms.

by Scottrf Mon 29 Jan - 13:22

Lawes also criticised his form recently. It's infectious.

by cascough Mon 29 Jan - 13:24

SecretFly wrote:
cascough wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:This will welcome trolling but....I hope that italy just turn up to play the game normally and not just to spoil in a way which for me infringed on the spirit of the laws and game.

You can't blame O'Shea for coaching a trick he thought might last for one or two stints. It was England's slow reaction to it that made a newsworthy spectacle out of it. O'Shea never dreamed his trick would linger so long in the game and had it been neutralised quicker (England's job) then nobody would even be referencing it today.

My frustration is that when people do reference it, they do so incorrectly.

England adapted to it almost immediately. If you look at the match clock it took 6 minutes from the first instance of it to England starting to pick and go. From then on in, England changed to either picking and going, offloading in contact, or whipping the ball straight away before any Italy players could get in their faces. The half time myth is just that, helped by a gleeful soundbite from Haskell that is in itself misrepresented. Remember, Haskell had encountered (and Wasps had used) this tactic before. He was merely trying to ascertain why Poite's definition of a ruck differed from a previous referees. England's biggest problem, is that their execution of basic skills fell away. Handling errors were terrible, passing was dire, contact skills were poor, unforced error after unforced error. The reason Italy weren't dead and buried at half time was England played very poorly. Nothing to do with Italy's tactics.

I also don't think that O'Shea planned to only use the tactic once or twice. Remember, they had planned to use the tactic differently right up until the evening before the game. It was that evening that they found out World Rugby had tweaked the law only that week. They were no longer allowed to sack the scrum half (as they had planned to) and gave serious consideration to abandoning the tactic altogether.

My frustration is that when people do reference it, they do so incorrectly.

I never said half time. I said a long time. It did take a long time for England to get a grip of what the Italians were doing or else, like I said earlier, we wouldn't be here talking about the O'Shea ploy now. Whether Haskell was confused by the Italians or confused by the ref.... he was confused and the English team were rattled that they weren't commanding the rhythm in that earlier part of the game.

I suppose then, that O'Shea's tactic had done its job....for a bit.... as was always the intention when Italy play the giant of a rugby Union side that is England. The malarkey worked for a while at unsettling the English. Is that so difficult a little thing to give to Italy and O'Shea? England then went on an won the damn thing anyway like was never a bloody doubt and all

It didn't take a long time. Like I said, it took six minutes. And the fact you're still talking about it is not evidence it worked. As I explained in my post, England made unforced errors. Had they not made those, England would have been out of sight regardless of Italy's tactics.

by cascough Mon 29 Jan - 13:26

beshocked wrote:

cascough England didn't react immediately. You had an embarrassing situation where Haskell was acting as Hartley's interpreter.

Not immediately, 6 minutes. Watch the game back. What was embarrassing about a captain and his openside flanker (who had experience of the tactic) asking for clarification of the ref's interpretation? Or is this just a way to another pop at Hartley?

by nlpnlp Mon 29 Jan - 13:50

I think it is ok Lawes saying I am not playing particularly well. I don't think it is so clever Mako bringing attention to the fact that even he agrees his scrummaging is not that good. If I was the referee in the Italy game, I would put him under more scrutiny at scrum time and would probably be more likely to ping him when the first scrum goes down his side.

Humility is welcome, but not at the expense of giving your opponent an advantage. It is similar with Hartley - he has a reputation as a 'bad boy' so if something happens where he is in the vicinity then people jump on the Hartley thug bandwagon.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 14:17

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/six-nations-maro-itoje-determined-continue-improving/?sf180576664=1

Some of the Itoje bit.

by beshocked Mon 29 Jan - 14:26

cascough well yes, Hartley lost control of the situation. His leadership was poor in last year's 6 nations.

nlplp you are assuming that - refs, coaches etc don't watch rugby games.

We as fans have talked about Mako's scrummaging, even I admit it's not a strength of his.

It's not an unknown thing.

You talk about Mako being under greater scrutiny, well it takes the pressure off others plus it will incentive Mako to improve.

I personally think it's great when a player owns up to their faults and if they improve it great.

scottrf well actually that kind of proves my point - Lawes has the humility to admit there are things to work out. He knows lock is very competitive.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 29 Jan - 14:28

Haskell and Marler added to squad despite being unavailable for Sunday (huh?)

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/six-nations-england-natwest-name-man-squad-for-italy-opener/?sf180567477=1

by Scottrf Mon 29 Jan - 14:29

LondonTiger wrote:Haskell and Marler added to squad despite being unavailable for Sunday (huh?)

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/six-nations-england-natwest-name-man-squad-for-italy-opener/?sf180567477=1

Probably to have them available for training?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 14:30

What difference do you think it makes beshocked? As I said players and people behave in different ways. In a similar style to some needing an arm round the shoulder and some a rocket elsewhere.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 14:31

Lack of other options and an acknowledgement that they will be there for the latter stages?

by propdavid_london Mon 29 Jan - 14:47

nlpnlp wrote:I think it is ok Lawes saying I am not playing particularly well. I don't think it is so clever Mako bringing attention to the fact that even he agrees his scrummaging is not that good. If I was the referee in the Italy game, I would put him under more scrutiny at scrum time and would probably be more likely to ping him when the first scrum goes down his side.

Humility is welcome, but not at the expense of giving your opponent an advantage. It is similar with Hartley - he has a reputation as a 'bad boy' so if something happens where he is in the vicinity then people jump on the Hartley thug bandwagon.

Maybe that is all part of the EJ bandwagon. Misdirection, the England camp aren't particularly worried about the LH side - but want to keep the referee focused there as they are more concerned about TH side. Drawing attention away from any inexperience that might be exploited on that side.

by cascough Mon 29 Jan - 14:49

propdavid_london wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:I think it is ok Lawes saying I am not playing particularly well. I don't think it is so clever Mako bringing attention to the fact that even he agrees his scrummaging is not that good. If I was the referee in the Italy game, I would put him under more scrutiny at scrum time and would probably be more likely to ping him when the first scrum goes down his side.

Humility is welcome, but not at the expense of giving your opponent an advantage. It is similar with Hartley - he has a reputation as a 'bad boy' so if something happens where he is in the vicinity then people jump on the Hartley thug bandwagon.
Maybe that is all part of the EJ bandwagon. Misdirection, the England camp aren't particularly worried about the LH side - but want to keep the referee focused there as they are more concerned about TH side. Drawing attention away from any inexperience that might be exploited on that side.

Dan Cole?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 29 Jan - 14:50

Re players admitting to their "weaknesses" - I suspect the ones in the press were just those that have been put up for interview over the weekend.

If May had been up for interview he would have spoken about his consistency and concentration; Cole spoken about carrying more; Underhill (well he has already spoken about his tackling technique) etc

by beshocked Mon 29 Jan - 14:54

no 7 & 1/2 it's what I prefer. If you prefer a player not to admit their faults, fair enough.

I think it helps portray a positive image. Admitting you have a problem, is a good first step to solving that problem IMO.

Even though we know Mako is not a good scrummager, he himself is acknowledging that.

Would you rather a player fooling themselves by pretending there isn't a problem? Sticking their head in the sand?

I say No. Mako needs to improve his scrummaging, we all know that.

Similarly we know there is a carrying issue without Billy. It's good to talk about aspects England must work on IMO.

Don't see it as a bad thing - see it as individuals trying to better themselves to raise the overall England performance.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 15:04

It was me asking talking.publicly helps all people. For me no. You've sidestepped slightly to say only those talking publicly acknowledge a problem/issue/improvement area. Now that's a different area. If a player has been given areas to work on by Jones and coaches and chooses to ignore that or doesn't improve enough then they're not going to be in the squad as wade Robson cipriani for earlier example show.

by Geordie Mon 29 Jan - 15:07

Mako isn't going to improve his scrummaging by now though. He's a British Lion.
If the problem hasn't been fixed by now...it aint going to be.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 15:08

I think it's more form geordie. He's a better scrummagers than he's shown in the last 2 months where frankly it hasn't been good enough. We'll see what Hatley can do.

by Geordie Mon 29 Jan - 15:19

I appreciate that, but what I mean, is...he isn't going to become a ridiculously destructive scrummager like a Julian White or someone. And that's not his game so its not expected.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jan - 15:21

No he won't. Fully accept that.

by king_carlos Mon 29 Jan - 15:28

Mako isn't a strong scrummager but I'd say he's as good a scrummager as any of our loosehead option bar Marler. I often feel the criticism he gets is by virtue of people comparing his scrummaging to his outstanding work in the loose. It's not only his carrying that's fantastic these days either, his handling is excellent and he throws his weight around in the tackle.

Genge is developing very well as a scrummager but can still give away a few penalties.

Mullan's scrummaging under the new laws hasn't been what it was. He used to be a rock for Wasps, he never dominated but very rarely went back. Under the new laws that's been a different story.

Boyce will benefit hugely from working with Rowntree and Hatley but has a lot of development to do.

Obano looks promising as a scrummager but I'd rather have Mako in the scrum currently.

Alex Waller is a very solid scrummager in the mould Mullan used to be in but I wouldn't say he's stronger than Mako.

Rapava-Ruskin is talented at set-piece but needs to nail down the starting shirt at Gloucs.

The depth of scrummaging in the props is something that needs to improve but I'd much rather have Mako on the England teamsheet than the oppositions!

by Scottrf Mon 29 Jan - 15:32

Slimani and Furlong are tough tasks though.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 29 Jan - 15:40

I'd say Genge wins more pens than he concedes. He just needs to learn to reign it in a little as he seems a bit all or nothing at the set piece. He's just as devastating ball in hand but hasn't got the silky skills Mako has.

It'll be interesting to see what happens at loosehead over the summer should all the injured players return. Marler is solid but his discipline is terrible. Obano is a monster but fades very quickly and won't last much past 50 at club level. Genge is increasingly good at the scrum and akin to another 8 ball in hand but plays very close to the edge and can concede penalties. Mullan is pretty much finished internationally. Mako needs to sort his set piece out but is incredible in the loose.

There's going to be changes before the RWC. Primed for a surprise.

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