6 NATIONS 2018 - England v Wales build up/Match/Autopsy Thread - 12-6

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales (The Big One) ITV 16:45pm


So much rests on this game. Wales look strong, England did enough in Rome to look comfortable.

Really hard to see how this wil play out.

Discuss.

Ref - Jérôme Garcès (France)

Head to head - Played - 130 Eng 61 - Wales 57 - Drawn 12




England Team

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 65 caps) 14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 29 caps) 13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 36 caps) 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 54 caps) 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 30 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 41 caps) 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 77 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 45 caps) 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 90 caps) 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 78 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 48 caps) 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 15 caps) 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 62 caps) 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 60 caps) 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens 21 caps) 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap) 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps) 19 George Kruis (Saracens 22 caps)  20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 4 caps) 21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 27 caps) 22 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 9 caps) 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 24 caps)




Wales team
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); Josh Adams (Worcester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Steff Evans (Scarlets); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys capt), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), George North (Northampton).


NO TRY - https://mobile.twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962615635321737217/video/1

[TightHEAD]

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 65 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 29 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 36 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 54 caps)
11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 30 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 41 caps)
9 Danny Care (Harlequins 77 caps)
1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 45 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 90 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 78 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 48 caps)
5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 15 caps)
6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 62 caps)
7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 60 caps)
8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)
Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens 21 caps)
17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap)
18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens 22 caps)
20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 4 caps)
21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 27 caps)
22 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 9 caps)
23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 24 caps)

[TightHEAD]

Care and JJ in.

[Scottrf]

JJ has only ever been left out for one game? Not a huge shock.

[TightHEAD]

I would have started Te'o personally and used JJ pace later on. But I guess Eddie knows what his doing.

[mid_gen]

Nope...Wales are harder to unlock than Italy, Te'o will be more effective later on in the game when legs tire.

As an Englishman, I'm quite happy Liam Williams is left out.

[TightHEAD]

Nope...Wales are harder to unlock than Italy, Te'o will be more effective later on in the game when legs tire.

As an Englishman, I'm quite happy Liam Williams is left out.

Yes......LW is a pain in the backside.

[propdavid_london]

Not a bad looking side - the Joseph-Teo switch makes sense to me. Eddie may well also take Ford off and move Faz to 10, Bring Teo on at 12 and there is a whole new dynamic (if needed, depending on how the game pans out).
Wiggy on the bench is expected - shame its not Robson but I don't see Wiggy letting anyone down.
I am not sure why LCD was called back into the squad! Perhaps there was a ? over Hartley or Georges fitness! If there was then it was overcome.

My concern's are the same as last game and Nov tests. That the backs are all ball players and none are equipped for heavy traffic (anyone seen a forecast for the weekend?)
Lawes on the flank is still only a stop gap in my mind, and not a preferred solution.

[Scottrf]

My concern's are the same as last game and Nov tests.  That the backs are all ball players and none are equipped for heavy traffic (anyone seen a forecast for the weekend?)  

I don't know why this is a problem? There are always 2 forward options to play to in our attacking system (until the ball is on the wing).

[Guest]

With Farrell's improvement in terms of offering a running threat (although the opposition must be taken into account) I suspect we'll see more space for JJ to exploit. The 2 FHs backline has great benefits for the back 3 but it can cut off options for the 13 so hopefully we see more hard running from Farrell, then he really could become a World Class 12.


Care comes into the starting lineup... maybe the reason he's not usually first choice isn't that England don't expect much from their SHs, or that they are just a link between ruck and FH, or that Care is just simply so good off the bench

[propdavid_london]

Forecast for Saturday - 9deg and Raining

[LondonTiger]

Forecast for Saturday - 9deg and Raining

Build a roof

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Forecast for Saturday - 9deg and Raining

I read that as 'nawdeg', which is Welsh for ninety. I'm guessing it won't be that warm.

[Noble-Surfer]

Nope...Wales are harder to unlock than Italy, Te'o will be more effective later on in the game when legs tire.

As an Englishman, I'm quite happy Liam Williams is left out.

As a Welshman, I'm disappointed Liam Williams is left out. He seems to have consistently been second choice to Leigh Halfpenny under Gatland, even while Halfpenny has been so clearly out of form.

That said, Halfpenny did play well, and scored two tries against Scotland, but I think Williams offers more of a running threat from deep, and for me, he is defensively just as solid. I would have preferred to see a back three of Williams, Evans & Adams, with North & Halfpenny on the bench...

[Rugby Fan]

Wonder how selection would look if Daly was fit?

Best guess would be for him to start over May, and May to drop out of the 23, as Nowell covers more positions. Seems unlikely he would drop Brown to try Watson at full back.

[thomh]

As a Welshman, I'm disappointed Liam Williams is left out. He seems to have consistently been second choice to Leigh Halfpenny under Gatland, even while Halfpenny has been so clearly out of form.

Gatland did select Williams for the Lions though, so that hierarchy is clearly not set in stone.

That said, Halfpenny did play well, and scored two tries against Scotland, but I think Williams offers more of a running threat from deep, and for me, he is defensively just as solid.

I don't think Williams is anywhere near as defensively solid as Halfpenny. A more exiting runner, but also more prone to the odd horrendous lapse. For both sides of that coin, see the first Lions test.

[Gooseberry]

Wonder how selection would look if Daly was fit?

Best guess would be for him to start over May, and May to drop out of the 23, as Nowell covers more positions. Seems unlikely he would drop Brown to try Watson at full back.

Does he? May was touted as a full back rather than a wing in his early career, and Watson covers that anyway. As of course does Daly. So picking on utility would be odd. Mays been ahead of Nowell in the pecking order for some time, I dont see why that suddenly changes. Tigers have fallen apart a bit recently but his early season form was great.

[Gooseberry]

Forecast for Saturday - 9deg and Raining

Build a roof

Halfpennys kicking is going to be more reliable than people trying to pass and run from inside their own 22 with a wet ball.

[LordDowlais]

Have to say this thread is much more pleasant and good natured than the Wales v Scotland one last week. Kudos folks!

Yes, it's nice to see a thread without any chest thumping and outlandish over the top score predictions without any substance.

[No 7&1/2]

It's a good team. Really looking forward to this one. I think the pack should have a slight edge over wales if it's raining. The scrum.has been good and lineout solid which were big ticks for me last week. Another stern test for those 2 areas.

[ChequeredJersey]

My concern's are the same as last game and Nov tests.  That the backs are all ball players and none are equipped for heavy traffic (anyone seen a forecast for the weekend?)  

I don't know why this is a problem? There are always 2 forward options to play to in our attacking system (until the ball is on the wing).

Not many starting forwards are equipped for heavy traffic either would be the counter, though I think they’ll be just about fine

[thomh]

Forecast for Saturday - 9deg and Raining

Build a roof

Its Englands backs who may regret the insistence on having it open.

Halfpennys kicking is going to be more reliable than people trying to pass and run from inside their own 22 with a wet ball.

Bloody small-minded RFU refusing to close the Twickenham roof just because it doesn't exist, as if that's a good enough reason.

[munkian]

Lack of balance in that England back row, could be an area to target.

[No 7&1/2]

The lock remains a concern for me. Should negate it a bit if raining though. Simmonds needs to have another big game.

[Sgt_Pooly]

England by 10 but it's not going to be easy

[Scottrf]

We all know what happened to the last team to come to Twickenham from a home win in the Wales and Scotland game and confidence.

[Poorfour]

Lack of balance in that England back row, could be an area to target.

Lack of conventional balance, sure. But against Italy it worked, in its own idiosyncratic way. It doesn't have an out and out 6, 7 and 8, but it has an enforcer, two carrying options, two guys who will get through an enormous workload, two lineout options and three guys who are effective at the breakdown (though they will need to be quicker than they were against Italy).

I am not totally convinced, but it's better than last year's mishmash on the showing so far.

[LordDowlais]

We all know what happened to the last team to come to Twickenham from a home win in the Wales and Scotland game and confidence.

Who said we are full of confidence ?

I am bricking it for Saturday, and not expecting Wales to get near England, this could be quite humbling for us. I just hope at the end we are not on the wrong end of a thrashing. I will be pleased if we come away with a losing BP.

[SecretFly]

We all know what happened to the last team to come to Twickenham from a home win in the Wales and Scotland game and confidence.

Who said we are full of confidence ?

I am bricking it for Saturday, and not expecting Wales to get near England, this could be quite humbling for us. I just hope at the end we are not on the wrong end of a thrashing. I will be pleased if we come away with a losing BP.

Shame on you as a Welshman, Lord! Shame on you. Expecting a loss?

[eirebilly]

I have a feeling both teams will get TBP's but that Wales will fall just short getting a LBP as well. If it were in Wales, I would say Wales would get the win.

[Guest]

We all know what happened to the last team to come to Twickenham from a home win in the Wales and Scotland game and confidence.

Who said we are full of confidence ?

I am bricking it for Saturday, and not expecting Wales to get near England, this could be quite humbling for us. I just hope at the end we are not on the wrong end of a thrashing. I will be pleased if we come away with a losing BP.

Shame on you as a Welshman, Lord!  Shame on you.  Expecting a loss?

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any Welsh fan predicting a win for Wales. Ok, I did on the score prediction thing but that was more to do with not betting against my own side. But I haven't seen anyone (on here) confident of a win.

[Scottrf]

You don't think the team has confidence?

You guys are playing down your chances to protect yourselves after the event but the team must be full of confidence after destroying The Best Attacking Side in the Northern Hemisphere .

[SecretFly]

We all know what happened to the last team to come to Twickenham from a home win in the Wales and Scotland game and confidence.

Who said we are full of confidence ?

I am bricking it for Saturday, and not expecting Wales to get near England, this could be quite humbling for us. I just hope at the end we are not on the wrong end of a thrashing. I will be pleased if we come away with a losing BP.

Shame on you as a Welshman, Lord!  Shame on you.  Expecting a loss?

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any Welsh fan predicting a win for Wales. Ok, I did on the score prediction thing but that was more to do with not betting against my own side. But I haven't seen anyone (on here) confident of a win.

Well, it was tongue-in-cheek but I don't mean that really anyway as much as I mean fans should be getting into battle mood and keying in to what Gatland and the team will be thinking.... not one of those guys are going to London preparing to lose - guaranteed.
I also said England (by a point!) because I know how good Wales are if they get into some adrenalin heat, get on top on the scoreboard and boom.... the win. They can quickly get into a rhythm that becomes unstoppable if they sniff anything at all.

[ChequeredJersey]

The lock remains a concern for me. Should negate it a bit if raining though. Simmonds needs to have another big game.

As in lock at 6?

Yeah.

Conversely, the lineout will run fine.

I'm not convinced this is our best England side available or for the opponents we face. For one thing, Wales looked very good at the breakdown, and that is valuable and our back row is vulnerable there no matter the conditions. For another, Care is a player I love who in good conditions I would like to see starting for England, he's in form etc. But in the rain, his kicking is still a weakness, and we are unlikely to play the style that brings the best out of him, so I would start Wriggles in this predicted weather. We have decent carrying ability but it is a bit light on gainline beating reliability, not helped at all by a lock at 6. I think in wet weather it is probably better to have heft in the midfield at the start and then bring on teh cutting edge, though I acknowledge that JJ's defence may be key. I think we will be fine though.

I'd look to play territory, get in their 22, use phase building small drives with tight support until the defence narrows and then kick wide with aggressive purpose from any of 9, 10 or 12, do it early and do it often to exploit their attacking, raw wingers and bypass their solid defence and breakdown winners, then when they get forced to widen out, use the forwards to flood the midfield with inside options especially Simmonds. And if Care is starting, tell him he can spark attacks with a snipe if they are ever lax on the fringes, use him in the middle of the pitch to send waves of forwards like Eddie used his 9s with Japan, and he has to do 100 pressups with Mako on his back for every aimless box kick

[ChequeredJersey]

Forecast for Saturday - 9deg and Raining

Build a roof

Halfpennys kicking is going to be more reliable than people trying to pass and run from inside their own 22 with a wet ball.

Luckily I think England and Jones might know how to play 10 man rugby if they need (well, 12 man rugby including the fullback and the kicker at 12)

[Recwatcher16]

I hadn't realised quite how many caps that England first fifteen have between them - 734, if my maths works and Itoje and Simmonds significantly lower the average. Throw in Haskell and Marler and it goes up again.

Considered opinion is that you need 800+ caps to win a RWC so England should be well over that in eighteen months time....injuries allowing.

Gatland appears to think (in the media) that a largish score at home against a poor defensive Scottish performance as their last opposition is good preparation for this game. Reminds me of some of the stuff he used to come out with when at Wasps.

[lostinwales]

I hadn't realised quite how many caps that England first fifteen have between them - 734, if my maths works and Itoje and Simmonds significantly lower the average. Throw in Haskell and Marler and it goes up again.

Considered opinion is that you need 800+ caps to win a RWC so England should be well over that in eighteen months time....injuries allowing.

Gatland appears to think (in the media) that a largish score at home against a poor defensive Scottish performance as their last opposition is good preparation for this game. Reminds me of some of the stuff he used to come out with when at Wasps.

Well it is 'preparation' and it is better 'preparation' than the alternative. This is a new look team even if there are not many new players, and they need to build confidence. On that basis a healthy win vs Scotland is good preparation.

[SecretFly]

Gatland appears to think (in the media) that a largish score at home against a poor defensive Scottish performance as their last opposition is good preparation for this game. Reminds me of some of the stuff he used to come out with when at Wasps.

Don't blame him, Rec. He lost his white flag years ago and don't know where to find it

[lostinwales]

Jones really is an artist when it comes to putting the knife in in interviews. Two sentences and the pressure is all Patchell.

[Poorfour]

Jones really is an artist when it comes to putting the knife in in interviews. Two sentences and the pressure is all Patchell.

And all he’s done is state a few facts... I am surprised he did it, to be honest. It makes Gatland’s team talk a bit easier

[Guest]

Funny how Gatland and Jones essentially come out with the same sort of barbs, but Gats is usually viewed as a WUM but Jones seems to escape the same sort of scrutiny! I don’t mean this as an anti-Welsh thing (heaven forbid) but Gatland just seems to cop more flak (on here and elsewhere). Maybe because he’s been here throwing out the barbs for longer than Jones?!

Interestingly I read an article by Clive Woodward in a paper today (not sure which one. It was left on a table in Sainsbury's). He was saying that he sat down to write about the two coaches but found that they are similar in so many ways. Same gritty, WUMmy, spiky, people who employ very similar methods and structures. So Saturday will be a good head to head.

[ChequeredJersey]

Jones really is an artist when it comes to putting the knife in in interviews. Two sentences and the pressure is all Patchell.

And all he’s done is state a few facts... I am surprised he did it, to be honest. It makes Gatland’s team talk a bit easier

It’s Wales vs England. I don’t think anything is needed to fire them up, or that anything will fire them up more in a constructive way.

[ChequeredJersey]

Funny how Gatland and Jones essentially come out with the same sort of barbs, but Gats is usually viewed as a WUM but Jones seems to escape the same sort of scrutiny! I don’t mean this as Ann anti-Welsh thing (heaven forbid) but Gatland just seems to cop more flak (on here and elsewhere). Maybe because he’s been here throwing out the barbs for longer than Jones?!

Interestingly I read an article by Clive Woodward in a paper today (not sure which one. It was left on a table in Sainsbury's). He was saying that he sat down to write about the two coaches but found that they are similar in so many ways. Same gritty, WUMmy, spiky, people who employ very similar methods and structures. So Saturday will be a good head to head.

Jones smiles disarmingly when he does it

[No 7&1/2]

Can't argue with that chequered.

[Guest]

Funny how Gatland and Jones essentially come out with the same sort of barbs, but Gats is usually viewed as a WUM but Jones seems to escape the same sort of scrutiny! I don’t mean this as Ann anti-Welsh thing (heaven forbid) but Gatland just seems to cop more flak (on here and elsewhere). Maybe because he’s been here throwing out the barbs for longer than Jones?!

Interestingly I read an article by Clive Woodward in a paper today (not sure which one. It was left on a table in Sainsbury's). He was saying that he sat down to write about the two coaches but found that they are similar in so many ways. Same gritty, WUMmy, spiky, people who employ very similar methods and structures. So Saturday will be a good head to head.

Jones smiles disarmingly when he does it

Yes, that’s true actually. Gats always seems more serious about it so maybe it’s taken more seriously. That little grin suggests Jones is being cheeky when it’s essentially the same thing. The clowns!

[ChequeredJersey]

Simmonds to 7 and Robshaw to 8 on defence scrums in the Wales half to send Simmonds hurtling at Patchell?

[RiscaGame]

People running at tens eh. It might catch on. He's a shrewd operator Eddie

[ChequeredJersey]

There’s running at 10s and running at 10s and I advocate the latter

[RiscaGame]

A wise choice, good sir.

[lostinwales]

Lots of people dislike Eddie (just like.. ahhh) but he does seem very precise with these comments. He still seems like an excellent fit with England

[yappysnap]

Just get Faz to smash him a few times

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