Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

First topic message reminder :

So, Wales have gone with Dan Biggar, Liam Williams & Leigh Halfpenny for the game against Ireland. George North & Gareth Anscombe drop to the bench, and Rhys Patchell & Josh Adams drop out of the match day squad. Not bad decisions in my opinion, though I think I might have had Patchell on the bench over Anscombe... and possibly switched Halfpenny & Williams- I just think Williams offers more threat from fullback than Halfpenny does.

Wales Team:
Halfpenny (Scarlets); L Williams (Saracens), S Williams (Scarlets), Parkes (Scarlets), S Evans (Scarlets); Biggar (Ospreys), G Davies (Scarlets); R Evans (Scarlets), Owens (Scarlets), Lee (Scarlets), Hill (Dragons), AW Jones (Ospreys capt), Shingler (Scarlets), Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements:
Dee (Dragons), W Jones (Scarlets), Francis (Exeter Chiefs), B Davies (Ospreys), Tipuric (Ospreys), A Davies (Scarlets), Anscombe (Blues), North (Northampton).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43127349

Ireland Team:
Kearney; Earls, Farrell, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best (capt), Porter; James Ryan, Toner; O'Mahony, Leavy, Stander.

Replacements: Cronin, McGrath, John Ryan, Roux, Conan, Marmion, Carbery, McFadden.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43152956

I fancy Wales to pinch it, just a feeling I have . I rate the players Ireland have coming in but losing Henshaw, Henderson and Furlong is huge. Wales have some experience coming back in, both of which are good players and playing well, and the new look team we have is a lot more settled. If it's raining I think we'll be in a spot of bother - our hands at Twickenham were as terrible as the TMO.

Leaving Patchell out is a big mistake. He brings creativity and a cutting edge we've been lacking (more-so than Anscombe), whether it be from 10 or 15. He wasn't the best against the No2 team in the world but that was just his second start from fly-half. He's still 2nd choice - whoever said that should be RP is bonkers.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

I didn't bring it up, you did with your claim that Sexton was the most accomplished 10 from the British Isles in the last 50 years. I countered it with a few names. I feel that your desperation to put Sexton ahead of all other excellent 10's has seriously clouded your judgement.

No you brought up the points tally not me. It was your trump card argument for Rog being the better player. It backfired when you realised the points per game average was lower despite Sexton not being kicker for about 10 of his caps.

Seriously? You make a claim that Sexton is the most accomplished 10 from the British Isles in the last 50 years, get countered and then latch on to your completed hatred of anything from Munster (simply because I mentioned ROG as one of the players better) and I brought it up? I used the points tally as one part of my argument not the basis. For the record, points tally is pretty important in International rugby and you do not get over 1000 international points by being bad.

Never did I say that Sexton was a bad 10, I think he is excellent but to claim he is the best in the last 50 years is wrong when there have been so many excellent 10's from all countries in that time.

You have either only watched rugby (and only Leinster and Ireland) for the last 10 years or are so clouded by your fanboyism that you have not seen any other rugby.

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

I didn't bring it up, you did with your claim that Sexton was the most accomplished 10 from the British Isles in the last 50 years. I countered it with a few names. I feel that your desperation to put Sexton ahead of all other excellent 10's has seriously clouded your judgement.

No you brought up the points tally not me. It was your trump card argument for Rog being the better player. It backfired when you realised the points per game average was lower despite Sexton not being kicker for about 10 of his caps.

Seriously? You make a claim that Sexton is the most accomplished 10 from the British Isles in the last 50 years, get countered and then latch on to your completed hatred of anything from Munster (simply because I mentioned ROG as one of the players better) and I brought it up? I used the points tally as one part of my argument not the basis. For the record, points tally is pretty important in International rugby and you do not get over 1000 international points by being bad.

Never did I say that Sexton was a bad 10, I think he is excellent but to claim he is the best in the last 50 years is wrong when there have been so many excellent 10's from all countries in that time.

You have either only watched rugby (and only Leinster and Ireland) for the last 10 years or are so clouded by your fanboyism that you have not seen any other rugby.

You brought up the points tally and are back tracking now because you know you were wrong.

The two examples you gave Rog and Jenkins didn't hold up to any kind of scrutany so you resort to insults. Good sign you cant put forward a reasonable argument for Rog being a better player which makes sense because you really cant.

LordDowlais wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:
You brought it up.

I think you are messing but anyway its very easy to be objective in this discussion.

Which out half of the three has played OH for two Lions tours?
Which out half has the B&I record for points scored in a Champions Cup final?
Which has a world player of the year nomination?
Which OH has won against NZ?

There is no doubt that Jenkins was a great kicker but he didn't bring much else to the party. Rog was a very good player too but "objectively speaking" Sexton has achieved more and has more strengths.

I didn't bring it up, you did with your claim that Sexton was the most accomplished 10 from the British Isles in the last 50 years. I countered it with a few names. I feel that your desperation to put Sexton ahead of all other excellent 10's has seriously clouded your judgement.

Yep, 50 years is a big time scale. I bet he's never heard of Barry John or Jonathan Davies.

Sure I have. There is a good case for Barry John but its hard to compare them. Very different players and Barry John had comparatively a much shorter career. Got two wins v NZ too though.

You are right Collapse, Sexton is the greatest player in the last 50 years from these British Isles. All the other players that were mentioned are simply not good enough to lace his boots.

I admit I am wrong and bow to your infinite knowledge of all things rugby over the last 50 years

Happy now?

eirebilly wrote:You are right Collapse, Sexton is the greatest player in the last 50 years from these British Isles. All the other players that were mentioned are simply not good enough to lace his boots.

I admit I am wrong and bow to your infinite knowledge of all things rugby over the last 50 years

Happy now?

No, try to put forward a reasonable counter argument without resorting to insults or acting like a baby.

For me there's 2 irish players who could very rightly be involved in a team of all time debate from the last ten to 15 years. Sexton isn't one of them. Wood just doesn't quite make the time frame.

No 7&1/2 wrote:For me there's 2 irish players who could very rightly be involved in a team of all time debate from the last ten to 15 years. Sexton isn't one of them. Wood just doesn't quite make the time frame.

Well I wasn't talking about all time I was talking about B&I. The acid test for B&I players is Lions selection so I don't think its unreasonable to include one of the most successful Lions out halves of the last 50 years in the conversation.

Yeah but Sexton would have done nothing with the Lions if it wasn't for Gatland.

If you're basing it the lions win percentage fair enough.

Anyway, back to the thread at hand. Loosing Furlong sand Henderson for the Wales game is a major loss for Ireland.

That coupled with Wales being able to bring back the likes of Biggar and Halfpenny makes for a very tight game for me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you're basing it the lions win percentage fair enough.

Why not base it on everything? Sexton has had a very successful Club, Ireland and Lions career. Very few B&I OHs have won two six nations, 3 Champions cups, 1 Amlin and 1 1/2 Lions tours.

Sexton even won the Leinster schools senior cup with St Marys. Their only win since Denis Hickey's Mary's side in 1994. The guy is an absolute winner.

Basing it on everything no I wouldnt have him in my top 3. Though as you say the lack of viewing etc of the older timers make things almost impossible to judge. Id agree he's the best irish 10 of the last 10 years.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Basing it on everything no I wouldnt have him in my top 3. Though as you say the lack of viewing etc of the older timers make things almost impossible to judge. Id agree he's the best irish 10 of the last 10 years.

Who are your top 3 B&I out halves?

Gotta laugh on this thread.

Us Welsh have given it a wide berth as we are fed up of being labeled on here, so the Irish members just argue with each other instead.

Come on guys, Sexton's a truly excellent FH. Credit where it's due. Just happens that England currently have 2 that are better.

Based on reading as well I would have to say in no particular order John, Wilkinson and jenkins. I appreciate though for John I'm having to base it on things I haven't seen extensively with my own eyes. Watched a helluva lot more rugby live since 2004 and only the big matches much before that time.

LordDowlais wrote:

Gotta laugh on this thread.

Us Welsh have given it a wide berth as we are fed up of being labeled on here, so the Irish members just argue with each other instead.

We aim to please buddy.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Based on reading as well I would have to say in no particular order John, Wilkinson and jenkins. I appreciate though for John I'm having to base it on things I haven't seen extensively with my own eyes. Watched a helluva lot more rugby live since 2004 and only the big matches much before that time.

Jenkins? I'm surprised. I liked him as a player. Saw him play live quite a few times. Loved his style, his unusual ticking routine, great kicker but very limited else where. That's a very odd one for me.

I get Barry John, Wilko less so as he didn't really achieve much for the Lions. Yes his crowning glory was a WC and at his best he was better than Sexton but over his whole career probably not. Too many injuries and not as consistent as Sexton IMO. Its a close one.

SecretFly wrote:Last post of the day from me..... last post of the day from me..... last post of the day from me

Sorry about the echo.

Question:  Did the Welsh take a wrong turn at Albuquerque?

We are currently enjoying the implosion of the four proud provinces

As I said the longer we go back the harder it is for me as i simply didn't see enough. Jenkins was always famous for his boot of course but looks one fo the best for me. Of course when you're talking these types.of things it's always the balance of the team which brings out the best or plays on the weakness of players.

Its funny to see how certain players (Jenkins, Wilkinson and ROG) who have all got over 1000 test points are considered only kickers by some people.

Jenkins had a very well rounded game and was a much better attacker than many chose to see.

Wilkinson was also a very attacking 10 and an excellent defender.

ROG was probably the best game managing 10 I have ever seen.

LordDowlais wrote:

Gotta laugh on this thread.

Us Welsh have given it a wide berth as we are fed up of being labeled on here, so the Irish members just argue with each other instead.

It's an ancestral trait with us. On failing to find anyone who'll fight with us, historically we've fought each other.

munkian wrote:We are currently enjoying the implosion of the four proud provinces thumbsup

Only 2 represented here, but wait til I throw David Humphreys and Lord Elwood into the mixer!

Sexton and Rog couldn't lace their boots....

The most naturally talented 10 I ever saw was Jiffy.

But then maybe he went to League too early to be considered a union great.

Is the roof open or closed?

You see, there are so many very good 10's from all countries in the past 50 years to simply come out and say that Sexton is the most accomplished.

eirebilly wrote:You see, there are so many very good 10's from all countries in the past 50 years to simply come out and say that Sexton is the most accomplished.

You don't say.

TightHEAD wrote:Is the roof open or closed?

Its being played in Lansdowne.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:You see, there are so many very good 10's from all countries in the past 50 years to simply come out and say that Sexton is the most accomplished.

You don't say.

Nice back tracking

Collapse2005 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Is the roof open or closed?

Its being played in Lansdowne.

Really!!!

Fascinating thread!

Keep it up, folks. The Irish backbiting each other about best 10 and the Welsh silently biting their fingernails on the sidelines, killing themselves to keep righteously quiet coz they is pi-ssed off with us ....... again....... as usual..........

De Glory of De Six Nations!

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:You see, there are so many very good 10's from all countries in the past 50 years to simply come out and say that Sexton is the most accomplished.

You don't say.

Nice back tracking

You are stating the obvious. I stand by my claim that he is the best B&I OH in 50 years. I have put forward lots of reasons why so no back tracking.

SecretFly wrote:Fascinating thread!

Keep it up, folks.  The Irish backbiting each other about best 10 and the Welsh silently biting their fingernails on the sidelines, killing themselves to keep righteously quiet coz they is pi-ssed off with us ....... again....... as usual..........

De Glory of De Six Nations!

I'm not worried, YOU ARE !

Sure what would you be worried about? Lose once and it's no big deal losing again.

Looking up my emergency topic list:
Em.... it looks like the ground is going to be ultra hard on Saturday. Good ground for running on or maybe even a spot of figure skating. More bad news for Ireland. Skating ain't our forte.

Oh and a game tonight! I love Friday night games.

SecretFly wrote:Looking up my emergency topic list:  
Em.... it looks like the ground is going to be ultra hard on Saturday.  Good ground for running on or maybe even a spot of figure skating.  More bad news for Ireland.  Skating ain't our forte.

Oh and a game tonight! I love Friday night games.

You beauty!  Forgot about that.  Yes!  A few glass of wine and some 6 nations on a Friday.  Made my day, that has.  Much better than watching another re-run of Rick Stein (in whatever lovely warm spot he happens to be in today) or Grand Designs.  Get in!

eirebilly wrote:You see, there are so many very good 10's from all countries in the past 50 years to simply come out and say that Sexton is the most accomplished.

Totally, just wait until Carbury gets another couple of games under his belt.

Sexton has one of the great 9s of all time beside him. ROG in the examiner today:

ROG wrote:The fascination here in Christchurch with Murray is very interesting. Maybe it’s the fact that he’s one of our own, but the awe in which other scrum-halves in New Zealand hold the Munster nine has me intrigued — especially their admiration for his box-kicking (the sports editor here will be amused!). I’ve had more than one ask me about Murray’s box-kicking drills. They are fascinated by him and his accuracy with ball in hand.

As for Sexton, I wonder do the Kiwis practice a 'Jonny Sexton' like they practice a 'Ronan O'Gara' (spiral kicks)?

The Oracle wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Looking up my emergency topic list:  
Em.... it looks like the ground is going to be ultra hard on Saturday.  Good ground for running on or maybe even a spot of figure skating.  More bad news for Ireland.  Skating ain't our forte.

Oh and a game tonight! I love Friday night games.

You beauty!  Forgot about that.  Yes!  A few glass of wine and some 6 nations on a Friday.  Made my day, that has.  Much better than watching another re-run of Rick Stein (in whatever lovely warm spot he happens to be in today) or Grand Designs.  Get in!

There you go. Glad I alerted maybe a few people who might have forgotten. I genuinely forgot about that game until a few minutes before I posted that. Yep, recliner out.... nice fire on and hopefully an entertaining game.

Sin é wrote:Sexton has one of the great 9s of all time beside him. ROG in the examiner today:

ROG wrote:The fascination here in Christchurch with Murray is very interesting. Maybe it’s the fact that he’s one of our own, but the awe in which other scrum-halves in New Zealand hold the Munster nine has me intrigued — especially their admiration for his box-kicking (the sports editor here will be amused!). I’ve had more than one ask me about Murray’s box-kicking drills. They are fascinated by him and his accuracy with ball in hand.

As for Sexton, I wonder do the Kiwis practice a 'Jonny Sexton' like they practice a 'Ronan O'Gara' (spiral kicks)?

The mouthy basterde is going to fall for all the gush guff and give away all Ireland's secrets!!!! We'll never win again for another Millennium or three!!! Don't tell them, ROG!!!! Don't tell them!

Sin é wrote:Sexton has one of the great 9s of all time beside him. ROG in the examiner today:

ROG wrote:The fascination here in Christchurch with Murray is very interesting. Maybe it’s the fact that he’s one of our own, but the awe in which other scrum-halves in New Zealand hold the Munster nine has me intrigued — especially their admiration for his box-kicking (the sports editor here will be amused!). I’ve had more than one ask me about Murray’s box-kicking drills. They are fascinated by him and his accuracy with ball in hand.

As for Sexton, I wonder do the Kiwis practice a 'Jonny Sexton' like they practice a 'Ronan O'Gara' (spiral kicks)?

No because Sexton doesn't kick very often. He statistically runs more ball than any other OH in the six nations and also passes the most and therefore kicks the least.

It never fails to amaze me how accomplished Munster fans are at taking credit for achievements that have nothing to do with Munster. Ireland are the only team to beat England in two years and Sexton played that day without Murray. Yep Murray is excellent but Id say most Kiwi's still think that both Perenara and Smith are better. Their passing is alright but for me Murray is better all round.

[quote="Collapse2005"]

Sin é wrote:Sexton has one of the great 9s of all time beside him. ROG in the examiner today:

ROG wrote:The fascination here in Christchurch with Murray is very interesting. Maybe it’s the fact that he’s one of our own, but the awe in which other scrum-halves in New Zealand hold the Munster nine has me intrigued — especially their admiration for his box-kicking (the sports editor here will be amused!). I’ve had more than one ask me about Murray’s box-kicking drills. They are fascinated by him and his accuracy with ball in hand.

As for Sexton, I wonder do the Kiwis practice a 'Jonny Sexton' like they practice a 'Ronan O'Gara' (spiral kicks)?

No because Sexton doesn't kick very often. He statistically runs more ball than any other OH in the six nations and also passes the most and therefore kicks the least.

Yep, bashing it up the middle is what Ireland is famed for. No wonder there are so many injured all the time (including Sexton). For all his kicking, ROG has an excellent try scoring record at international level (2nd to Dan Carter I think). It goes DC 29, Wilko 7, Neil Jenkins 11, ROG 16, Stephen Jones 7. Sexton has 10.

It never fails to amaze me how accomplished Munster fans are at taking credit for achievements that have nothing to do with Munster. Ireland are the only team to beat England in two years and Sexton played that day without Murray. Yep Murray is excellent but Id say most Kiwi's still think that both Perenara and Smith are better. Their passing is alright but for me Murray is better all round.

I think the difference that day was POM coming in and making the lineout competitive. Fabulous steal from Itoje at the end of the game (a bit like Earls try saving tackle v. Italy).

Murray is a type.  I'd just like a more ratty, niggly, small, explosive, quick, more classic version 9 to be given a crack too to see what Ireland would look like.  And I mean with the A team.... with all the other big boys, not with a team of B alternatives packed in together against a tier 2 side.
Murray is a type but for me he's a big part of the reason why we play this more attritional phase play stuff that rarely finds an opening.

Anyway, back to the 6N... I made a little comment on the Ulster thread when Beirne was brought up.

And I thought a bit about it, and now I seriously think Joe Schmidt should catch everyone off guard, accept that this 6N is a thing we really want and, for now, still have GS hopes for - bury his pride - be the better man and call back into the squad Simon Zebo...plus get Beirne in to camp too.
It has already been said that the playing-away rule is not written in stone ---- so I think he should bring those two guys in and let's attack this Championship with our full list of potentials. Too late for the Wales game; but still two massive games to come.

So, score predictions lads ?

We'll go easy on you coz it's Gatland's Wales anniversary ... so only 68 - 3

Nah, I think we're all doing our predictions over on that prediction thread. I forget mine. 31 -22 I think.

SecretFly wrote:We'll go easy on you coz it's Gatland's Wales anniversary ... so only 68 - 3

Nah, I think we're all doing our predictions over on that prediction thread.  I forget mine.  31 -22 I think.

Its also Schmidt's 53rd game in charge of Ireland equalling Kindey's run.

You should work in advertising or PR Siné. Very creative mind.

I think he does kinda...don't he?