Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

First topic message reminder :

So, Wales have gone with Dan Biggar, Liam Williams & Leigh Halfpenny for the game against Ireland. George North & Gareth Anscombe drop to the bench, and Rhys Patchell & Josh Adams drop out of the match day squad. Not bad decisions in my opinion, though I think I might have had Patchell on the bench over Anscombe... and possibly switched Halfpenny & Williams- I just think Williams offers more threat from fullback than Halfpenny does.

Wales Team:
Halfpenny (Scarlets); L Williams (Saracens), S Williams (Scarlets), Parkes (Scarlets), S Evans (Scarlets); Biggar (Ospreys), G Davies (Scarlets); R Evans (Scarlets), Owens (Scarlets), Lee (Scarlets), Hill (Dragons), AW Jones (Ospreys capt), Shingler (Scarlets), Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements:
Dee (Dragons), W Jones (Scarlets), Francis (Exeter Chiefs), B Davies (Ospreys), Tipuric (Ospreys), A Davies (Scarlets), Anscombe (Blues), North (Northampton).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43127349

Ireland Team:
Kearney; Earls, Farrell, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best (capt), Porter; James Ryan, Toner; O'Mahony, Leavy, Stander.

Replacements: Cronin, McGrath, John Ryan, Roux, Conan, Marmion, Carbery, McFadden.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43152956

Its so easy to look good in an AB side though - it takes real talent to look good in a weak team. Probably why Jones described Russell as World Class and Patchell as a bottler.

Wales by 3

munkian wrote:Wales by 3

You know Ireland have never lost at home in the 6 nations under Schmidt? Worst result was a draw to Wales.

Wales could easily win by 3 IMO. This is Ireland's biggest test I reckon.

munkian wrote:Wales by 3

That's tight! Another heart attack game.

So how do you see it panning out, munk? Do you get the 3 point lead early and hang on like Ireland do.... or is that a killer blow in the 98th minute, just as all Irish fans are belting out a 'victorious' Fields of Athenry?

Which half do you think Wales will do the damage in? Catch us cold at the start or bury us with dash and daring-do in the second half?

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:You see, there are so many very good 10's from all countries in the past 50 years to simply come out and say that Sexton is the most accomplished.

You don't say.

Nice back tracking

You are stating the obvious. I stand by my claim that he is the best B&I OH in 50 years. I have put forward lots of reasons why so no back tracking.

Aah if only that was your original point. Your original point was that Sexton is "The most accomplished 10 produced in the British Isles in the last 50 years".

proven wrong by numerous posters so change the goal posts and back track, that's the Guns way

Collapse2005 wrote:

munkian wrote:Wales by 3

You know Ireland have never lost at home in the 6 nations under Schmidt? Worst result was a draw to Wales.

Wales could easily win by 3 IMO. This is Ireland's biggest test I reckon.

I suppose we'll say different when England come around but I've had that mood for a long time. I agree - I have a feeling this game will be our toughest encounter. Don't know why considering it's England at home in the last game. But instincts are instincts.

Collapse2005 wrote:You should work in advertising or PR Siné. Very creative mind.

I used to Guns

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:You see, there are so many very good 10's from all countries in the past 50 years to simply come out and say that Sexton is the most accomplished.

You don't say.

Nice back tracking

You are stating the obvious. I stand by my claim that he is the best B&I OH in 50 years. I have put forward lots of reasons why so no back tracking.

Aah if only that was your original point. Your original point was that Sexton is "The most accomplished 10 produced in the British Isles in the last 50 years".

proven wrong by numerous posters so change the goal posts and back track, that's the Guns way

That's is pretty much the same thing. "Proven wrong"? Can you summarise how I was proven wrong by "other posters"? This should be good.

How many OH's have accomplished more than Sexton?

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:You should work in advertising or PR Siné. Very creative mind.

I used to Guns

Cant say I'm surprised.

SecretFly wrote:

munkian wrote:Wales by 3

That's tight!  Another heart attack game.

So how do you see it panning out, munk?  Do you get the 3 point lead early and hang on like Ireland do.... or is that a killer blow in the 98th minute, just as all Irish fans are belting out a 'victorious' Fields of Athenry?

Which half do you think Wales will do the damage in?  Catch us cold at the start or bury us with dash and daring-do in the second half?

We'll get an early try, miss conversion, you'll turn down easy point for corner kicks in a bid to try and get one back.

Cue loads of blunt attack and a huge defensive shift by us - yellow card - you get your try, miss conversion as Sexton's entire skeleton turns to dust.

Halfpence ends a tight game with a huge penalty as POM finally get penalised for elbow crawling over the breakdown.

munkian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

munkian wrote:Wales by 3

That's tight!  Another heart attack game.

So how do you see it panning out, munk?  Do you get the 3 point lead early and hang on like Ireland do.... or is that a killer blow in the 98th minute, just as all Irish fans are belting out a 'victorious' Fields of Athenry?

Which half do you think Wales will do the damage in?  Catch us cold at the start or bury us with dash and daring-do in the second half?

We'll get an early try, miss conversion,  you'll turn down easy point for corner kicks in a bid to try and get one back.

Cue loads of blunt attack and a huge defensive shift by us - yellow card - you get your try, miss conversion as Sexton's entire skeleton turns to dust.

Halfpence ends a tight game with a huge penalty as POM finally get penalised for elbow crawling over the breakdown.

Right.., I'm getting my space behind the couch sorted.  Cushion - flask of ... whiskey.  Bottle of whiskey.... biscuits...blindfold.

Weather not looking good for Saturday. Very cold.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:You see, there are so many very good 10's from all countries in the past 50 years to simply come out and say that Sexton is the most accomplished.

You don't say.

Nice back tracking

You are stating the obvious. I stand by my claim that he is the best B&I OH in 50 years. I have put forward lots of reasons why so no back tracking.

Aah if only that was your original point. Your original point was that Sexton is "The most accomplished 10 produced in the British Isles in the last 50 years".

proven wrong by numerous posters so change the goal posts and back track, that's the Guns way

That's is pretty much the same thing. "Proven wrong"? Can you summarise how I was proven wrong by "other posters"? This should be good.

How many OH's have accomplished more than Sexton?

Your words below, not mine. Easily found on page 3 of this thread.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Lets face it Sexton is the most accomplished OH in Britain and Ireland in 50 years. Only Wilko with his world cup medal has managed to achieve something that Sexton has not.

Now the goal posts have been changed and you are back tracking since myself and several other posters offered other names to counter. The new goal post for you is this now, your words again...

Collapse2005 wrote:  I stand by my claim that he is the best B&I OH in 50 years .

Do you not clearly see your own hypocrisy?

No I cant. I believe both statements to be true. Where is the back tracking?

Feel free to construct a sensible counter argument to either of those statements.

Already done that several times guns, not my problem if you are blunt to reasoning. You work away though, some logic you have

Don't mean to interfere but............... well it is me, and I do.


But billy................ it is virtually the same thing. 'Most accomplished' - 'best'. Indeed, I'd say 'best' instead of being a product of 'back tracking' is to my mind a little bit stronger than 'most accomplished'.

SecretFly wrote:Don't mean to interfere but............... well it is me, and I do.


But billy................ it is virtually the same thing.  'Most accomplished' - 'best'.  Indeed, I'd say 'best' instead of being a product of 'back tracking' is to my mind a little bit stronger than 'most accomplished'.

But Fly, most accomplished OH in Britain and Ireland in 50 years and then using the Lions as a benchmark whilst backing away? Pointed out to him on the previous page by another poster...

Sexton is very good but in no way can anyone claim he is the most accomplished player to come out from Britain and Ireland in 50 years, madness

Yeah but...is not the Lions an extension of the B&I player record bit?

Now, with me - well, I don't like the Lions much and I think it waters down the records of International players playing for their respective Nations (the highest accolade in my eyes) - but the media and most fans - Lions record is important in rating B&I players against each other.

Basically ignoring other players records (the +1000 international point group) and making stupid statements like they were only kickers is a ridiculous and disrespectful (to the players) counter argument. It is complete and utter cherry picking of stats...

eirebilly wrote:Already done that several times guns, not my problem if you are blunt to reasoning. You work away though, some logic you have

I said sensible counter argument. Something that isn't so easily debunked. Your argument for Rog being better was based on one or two metrics for example, he has scored more points etc.

Easy to debunk when you realise Sexton's points per game tally is higher despite not always being starting kicker.
Even the try scoring metric. 16 tries for O'Gara is impressive but that's only a try per every 8 games compared to Sextons try per every 7 games.
Some one else also pointed out incorrectly that O'Gara had more wins at international level which was incorrect. Sexton's win rate also significantly improves when O'Gara retired.

If you look at accomplishments holistically Sexton comes out on top over O'Gara in nearly every way as summaried before as he does over most if not all B&I players of the last 50 years.

Players now? Not fly half's? No. As I said above ireland have had 2 guys better at least in the last 10 years or so.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Already done that several times guns, not my problem if you are blunt to reasoning. You work away though, some logic you have

I said sensible counter argument. Something that isn't so easily debunked. Your argument for Rog being better was based on one or two metrics for example, he has scored more points etc.

Easy to debunk when you realise Sexton's points per game tally is higher despite not always being starting kicker.
Even the try scoring metric. 16 tries for O'Gara is impressive but that's only a try per every 8 games compared to Sextons try per every 7 games.

If you look at accomplishments holistically Sexton comes out on top over O'Gara in nearly every way as summaried before as he does over most if not all B&I players of the last 50 years.

Stop trying to change again. ROG was just one player I mentioned to counter your statement, there are several. Do you not see how hard it is to debate with someone like you that has so much provincial bias?

eirebilly wrote:Basically ignoring other players records (the +1000 international point group) and making stupid statements like they were only kickers is a ridiculous and disrespectful (to the players) counter argument. It is complete and utter cherry picking of stats...

Lol. Cherry picking is exactly what you are doing. Do a broad comparison of Rog v Sexton's accomplishments as a whole and see who comes out on top.

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Already done that several times guns, not my problem if you are blunt to reasoning. You work away though, some logic you have

I said sensible counter argument. Something that isn't so easily debunked. Your argument for Rog being better was based on one or two metrics for example, he has scored more points etc.

Easy to debunk when you realise Sexton's points per game tally is higher despite not always being starting kicker.
Even the try scoring metric. 16 tries for O'Gara is impressive but that's only a try per every 8 games compared to Sextons try per every 7 games.

If you look at accomplishments holistically Sexton comes out on top over O'Gara in nearly every way as summaried before as he does over most if not all B&I players of the last 50 years.

Stop trying to change again. ROG was just one player I mentioned to counter your statement, there are several. Do you not see how hard it is to debate with someone like you that has so much provincial bias?

Again you brought Rog up not me.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Basically ignoring other players records (the +1000 international point group) and making stupid statements like they were only kickers is a ridiculous and disrespectful (to the players) counter argument. It is complete and utter cherry picking of stats...

Lol. Cherry picking is exactly what you are doing. Do a broad comparison of Rog v Sexton's accomplishments as a whole and see who comes out on top.

Again... Let me refresh your original statement. Sexton is the most accomplished player from Britain and Ireland in 50 years.

I mentioned ROG as one of several players as a counter argument to you. You made this ROG v Sexton, not me...

Tighten up FFS

Speaking of sexton have people seen he sat out training with a bad back.

ROG brought himself up. He's being giving State Rugby secrets to the Kiwis of all people. He should be shipped home and put up against a wall for treason!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Speaking of sexton have people seen he sat out training with a bad back.

Oh I think the coaches just mistook one of his constant frowns as something more serious.....

"Is it your back, Johnny????!!!"

"No - me f**king cornflakes!!! Left too long in the milk again!!! Mushy as f**K! I hate this hotel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Basically ignoring other players records (the +1000 international point group) and making stupid statements like they were only kickers is a ridiculous and disrespectful (to the players) counter argument. It is complete and utter cherry picking of stats...

Lol. Cherry picking is exactly what you are doing. Do a broad comparison of Rog v Sexton's accomplishments as a whole and see who comes out on top.

Again... Let me refresh your original statement. Sexton is the most accomplished player from Britain and Ireland in 50 years.

I mentioned ROG as one of several players as a counter argument to you. You made this ROG v Sexton, not me...

Tighten up FFS

So let me get this straight, you brought up Rog to counter my argument but I made it about Rog v Sexton? Is that right? You are a funny dude Billy.

There are simply very few records that can be attributed to individual players in rugby because it is a team sport. You can be a bad player in a winning team or a great player in a losing team. Measuring greatness on what a team has achieved is not right in my mind.

Point tally's is also the result of the team behind the point taker but the point taker still has to kick them.

1000+ points in International rugby is brilliant as far as I am concerned as after all these years, there is still so few members.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Basically ignoring other players records (the +1000 international point group) and making stupid statements like they were only kickers is a ridiculous and disrespectful (to the players) counter argument. It is complete and utter cherry picking of stats...

Lol. Cherry picking is exactly what you are doing. Do a broad comparison of Rog v Sexton's accomplishments as a whole and see who comes out on top.

Again... Let me refresh your original statement. Sexton is the most accomplished player from Britain and Ireland in 50 years.

I mentioned ROG as one of several players as a counter argument to you. You made this ROG v Sexton, not me...

Tighten up FFS

So let me get this straight, you brought up Rog to counter my argument but I made it about Rog v Sexton? Is that right? You are a funny dude Billy.

No, I brought up ROG as well as other players, you made it ROG v Sexton. Read back, its all there and plain to see. Mind you, you seem unable to read and understand the post you quoted so I guess it might be too much of a task for you.

Done now guns, G'luk

eirebilly wrote:There are simply very few records that can be attributed to individual players in rugby because it is a team sport. You can be a bad player in a winning team or a great player in a losing team. Measuring greatness on what a team has achieved is not right in my mind.

Point tally's is also the result of the team behind the point taker but the point taker still has to kick them.

1000+ points in International rugby is brilliant as far as I am concerned as after all these years, there is still so few members.

I thought we agreed cherry picking stats isn't a reliable way of holistically comparing all B&I 10s accomplishments. You are contradicting yourself again.

So basically you are saying that both Rog and Jenkins are better OHs than Beauden Barrett because they have scored more points at international level?

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Basically ignoring other players records (the +1000 international point group) and making stupid statements like they were only kickers is a ridiculous and disrespectful (to the players) counter argument. It is complete and utter cherry picking of stats...

Lol. Cherry picking is exactly what you are doing. Do a broad comparison of Rog v Sexton's accomplishments as a whole and see who comes out on top.

Again... Let me refresh your original statement. Sexton is the most accomplished player from Britain and Ireland in 50 years.

I mentioned ROG as one of several players as a counter argument to you. You made this ROG v Sexton, not me...

Tighten up FFS

So let me get this straight, you brought up Rog to counter my argument but I made it about Rog v Sexton? Is that right? You are a funny dude Billy.

No, I brought up ROG as well as other players, you made it ROG v Sexton. Read back, its all there and plain to see. Mind you, you seem unable to read and understand the post you quoted so I guess it might be too much of a task for you.

Done now guns, G'luk

I already addressed your comments re Jenkins and have discussed Wilko and literally every other OH mentioned. It think you are just looking for attention now at this point. Do you need a hug or something?

Jenkins was a very limited player who didn't achieve much domestically nor internationally really certainly compared to Sexton anyway. So that was an odd one but in fairness you weren't the only one who brought him up. Saw him play many times. Really liked him, wonderful idiosyncratic kicking style and routine but wasn't particularly well rounded.

Jenkins played in two Lions tours but only one test as an out half. Similar story for Rog neither were trusted with the Lions OH jersey unlike Sexton.

In other news....it appears Joe has finally become an Irish coach.  He's finally getting emotionally involved.  He's finally letting the old gut feelings vent.  I like it.  It augurs well.

He's gotten mad with the lingering press who want to kiss his cheek in the tight spaces in and around Lansdowne and then head off to do their best tabloid efforts on anything he chooses to say or not say.

Now, he's got riled by the idea that Ireland don't play rugby.  He laid down a pretty direct and, dare I say it, bullish and fighting retort and kinda suggests his players want to rumble now with all the negative publicity coming their way about their style.

This is good to hear.  It's one of the main things that has been missing in this very well oiled and drilled, disciplined Irish side - sheer venom and emotion; controlled yes but it needs to be part of our make-up again.  We need to have fury when we hit the field.

Who is to say how it will all pan out, but I do like this more openly abrasive and tetchy Joe Schmidt that is emerging.

If people were only able to judge on lions selection or use it primarily you would struggle to justify someone like greenwood in these sort of discussions. Given the mess of selections of the last 2 tours I'd be more inclined to view players careers as a whole.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If people were only able to judge on lions selection or use it primarily you would struggle to justify someone like greenwood in these sort of discussions.  Given the mess of selections of the last 2 tours I'd be more inclined to view players careers as a whole.

So would I, as I mentioned at the start:

2 six nations
3 Champions cups
1 Amlin
numerous Pro 14 titles
1 world player of the year nominee
6 back to back Lions test appearances at OH (one series win one draw)
Top B&I points scorer in a Champions cup final
Churchill Cup Winners medal
Leinster Schools senior cup medal winner (rare for St Mary's)
Two wins v NZ & 1 draw

There aren't that many OHs with as long a list of accomplishments. He has been a winner at literally every level since school except the world cup.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:If people were only able to judge on lions selection or use it primarily you would struggle to justify someone like greenwood in these sort of discussions.  Given the mess of selections of the last 2 tours I'd be more inclined to view players careers as a whole.

So would I, as I mentioned at the start:

2 six nations
3 Champions cups
1 Amlin
numerous Pro 14 titles
1 world player of the year nominee
6 back to back Lions test appearances at OH
Top B&I points scorer in a Champions cup final (one series win one draw)
Churchill Cup Winners medal
Leinster Schools senior cup medal winner (rare for St Mary's)
Two wins v NZ & 1 draw

There aren't that many OHs with as long a list of accomplishments. He has been a winner at literally every level since school except the world cup.

It's not bad but:

World Cup Winner (With the winning points)
World Cup Runner Up
World Cup Top Points Scorer
#2 International Points Scorer
6 Nations x4
Heineken Cup x 2
Premiership Title
Top 14 Title
Winner (not nominated) of player of the year
6 Lions Appearances

Still not as accomplished as Sexton Scott...

I would also like to see what Owen Farrell has won in his career. He has quite a few medals does he not and I think he only has about 10 points less than Sexton in his career.

I wont accept the 'He plays 12 now' cop out as we all know he has been primarily a 10 and is only playing at 12 because he is also excellent there.

Scottrf wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:If people were only able to judge on lions selection or use it primarily you would struggle to justify someone like greenwood in these sort of discussions.  Given the mess of selections of the last 2 tours I'd be more inclined to view players careers as a whole.

So would I, as I mentioned at the start:

2 six nations
3 Champions cups
1 Amlin
numerous Pro 14 titles
1 world player of the year nominee
6 back to back Lions test appearances at OH
Top B&I points scorer in a Champions cup final (one series win one draw)
Churchill Cup Winners medal
Leinster Schools senior cup medal winner (rare for St Mary's)
Two wins v NZ & 1 draw

There aren't that many OHs with as long a list of accomplishments. He has been a winner at literally every level since school except the world cup.

It's not bad but:

World Cup Winner (With the winning points)
World Cup Runner Up
World Cup Top Points Scorer
#2 International Points Scorer
6 Nations x4
Heineken Cup x 2
Premiership Title
Top 14 Title
Winner (not nominated) of player of the year
6 Lions Appearances

Yeah as I said from the start only Wilko's accomplishments rival Sextons in particular the WC win. I think that at his best Wilkinson was a better player alright but over the course of his career Sexton has been more consistent. I don't think Wilkinson was as key a Lions player as Sexton has been for example nor was he that prominent a player in England's 2007 RWC run but that's debatable.

Wilko also got a second player of the year nomination.

eirebilly wrote:Still not as accomplished as Sexton Scott...

I would also like to see what Owen Farrell has won in his career. He has quite a few medals does he not and I think he only has about 10 points less than Sexton in his career.

I wont accept the 'He plays 12 now' cop out as we all know he has been primarily a 10 and is only playing at 12 because he is also excellent there.

You are being a big baby now Billy.

Farrell is a 12. The vast majority of his games for England and the Lions have been at 12.

Drico played a game for Ireland at 10 once and was also a 10 at schools level too should we include him in the conversation? Come on, don't be daft.

Its funny how stats can be twisted to suit any argument.

I just don't rate Sexton.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Still not as accomplished as Sexton Scott...

I would also like to see what Owen Farrell has won in his career. He has quite a few medals does he not and I think he only has about 10 points less than Sexton in his career.

I wont accept the 'He plays 12 now' cop out as we all know he has been primarily a 10 and is only playing at 12 because he is also excellent there.

You are being a big baby now Billy.

Farrell is a 12. The vast majority of his games for England and the Lions have been at 12.

Drico played a game for Ireland at 10 once and was also a 10 at schools level too should we include him in the conversation? Come on, don't be daft.

Not the vast majority. A slight majority. And all his club games at 10. He's a 10 who plays as a 10 in a 12 shirt for his country.

I stand corrected then, cheers Scott. Could have sworn he had more caps at 10 for England than at 12.

The majority of his international caps were at 12 which is obviously the pinicle for any player. If he was a better 10 than Sexton he would have started at 10 on the Lions tour. To be honest he was quite lucky to play at 12 as he defense was very shaky.

He went to 12 for the Lions because Sexton was unable to get the attack moving by himself. That's the reality.

Collapse2005 wrote:The majority of his international caps were at 12 which is obviously the pinicle for any player. If he was a better 10 than Sexton he would have started at 10 on the Lions tour. To be honest he was quite lucky to play at 12 as he defense was very shaky.

I don't agree with that at all. Some players are versatile enough to get on the pitch without necessarily being the best player in any given position - Mike Catt springs to mind. But some players can play multiple positions and which one they play depends on who else is available to the coach. Richard Hill was a better 7 than 6, but played 6 internationally to accommodate Neil Back. Hill was the better player, though.

Farrell can play 10 or 12 equally well. It so happens that England don't have a current playmaker at 12 who combines Farrell's physicality and game management, but they do have a 10 with complementary skills, so Faz plays 12. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be a better 10 than Ford or Sexton if he played there, but his ability to cover 10 enables Gatland and Jones to get more talent on the pitch.

For what it's worth, I think Sexton today has the edge over Farrell at 10. But Farrell is a fair bit younger and still developing. May's first try against Wales was created by Farrell and was right out of the top drawer of fly half play. Keep doing that and he's a credible contender. But he may not get to play 10 for England much with Ford and Marcus Smith also available. He's more valuable to the team at 12.

As for Sexton being the "most accomplished" there are three different ways to interpret it:
"Most accomplished" can mean "most complete skill set, or most elegant player". There's a fair case for Sexton here. But if we're talking about the last 50 years then that brings Barry John and Phil Bennett into the equation and they would have a credible case too. You could make a case for Gregor Townsend, if he had only had people to play off him who could follow what he was doing.

"Most accomplished" can mean "best". Again, Sexton has a case, but so do John and Bennett, and Wilkinson, and perhaps Farrell.

"Most accomplished" can mean "with the most accomplishments". That would be Wilkinson. It's not really debatable - even allowing for 4 years lost to injury. His club and country record is better. He was unlucky with the Lions, but the RWC win tops everything.

And ROG or Jenkins the Boot? Not in the same league. Both were good international players with metronomic boots, but neither had the breadth of skills or range of achievements that would put them up with the other candidates.

Errrr. Ireland Vs Wales?

Poorfour wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:The majority of his international caps were at 12 which is obviously the pinicle for any player. If he was a better 10 than Sexton he would have started at 10 on the Lions tour. To be honest he was quite lucky to play at 12 as he defense was very shaky.

I don't agree with that at all. Some players are versatile enough to get on the pitch without necessarily being the best player in any given position - Mike Catt springs to mind. But some players can play multiple positions and which one they play depends on who else is available to the coach. Richard Hill was a better 7 than 6, but played 6 internationally to accommodate Neil Back. Hill was the better player, though.

Farrell can play 10 or 12 equally well. It so happens that England don't have a current playmaker at 12 who combines Farrell's physicality and game management, but they do have a 10 with complementary skills, so Faz plays 12. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be a better 10 than Ford or Sexton if he played there, but his ability to cover 10 enables Gatland and Jones to get more talent on the pitch.

For what it's worth, I think Sexton today has the edge over Farrell at 10. But Farrell is a fair bit younger and still developing. May's first try against Wales was created by Farrell and was right out of the top drawer of fly half play. Keep doing that and he's a credible contender. But he may not get to play 10 for England much with Ford and Marcus Smith also available. He's more valuable to the team at 12.

As for Sexton being the "most accomplished" there are three different ways to interpret it:
"Most accomplished" can mean "most complete skill set, or most elegant player". There's a fair case for Sexton here. But if we're talking about the last 50 years then that brings Barry John and Phil Bennett into the equation and they would have a credible case too. You could make a case for Gregor Townsend, if he had only had people to play off him who could follow what he was doing.

"Most accomplished" can mean "best". Again, Sexton has a case, but so do John and Bennett, and Wilkinson, and perhaps Farrell.

"Most accomplished" can mean "with the most accomplishments". That would be Wilkinson. It's not really debatable - even allowing for 4 years lost to injury. His club and country record is better. He was unlucky with the Lions, but the RWC win tops everything.

And ROG or Jenkins the Boot? Not in the same league. Both were good international players with metronomic boots, but neither had the breadth of skills or range of achievements that would put them up with the other candidates.

I agree with you on most of that but when you are talking about the most acomplished 10 of the last 50 years I dont see how Farrell even enters the conversation as he doesnt play 10 at international level, the reasons why dont really matter in my opinion. That doesn't mean he isn't a good player. I think so far this six nations he is having one of his best ones. I agree re the kick for Mays try, it was perfect.

carpet baboon wrote:Errrr. Ireland Vs Wales?

The Welsh dont want to talk about it.