Ulster Rugby 2017-18

by Kingshu Wed 14 Feb 2018, 4:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was thinkung similar McCloskey for me has been better than Arnold and Farrell and just isnt being picked. Hopefully a resurgent Ulster will make it all better

by geoff999rugby Fri 02 Mar 2018, 9:27 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
profitius wrote:The IRFU should step in and give the organisation a spring clean and they've just the man to do that in Nucifora.
Nucifora has zero credibility north of the (hard) border, but that's irrelevant as the IRFU are probably rubbing their hands in glee at Ulster's woes. They will want to humble the Branch into total submission before offering any help. The Branch have not doffed their cap enough to D4, so they need to be broken and acknowledge who's boss before anything constructive can germinate.

Well the Committee members, Logan and Kiss were as humble as could be regarding Pienaer.
They could not have been any more submissive
Only Cunningham argued to keep him.

To be honest the IRFU can humiliate the committee members and Logan as much as they want - it is no more than they deserve for their gross incompetence in bringing this province to its knees

by geoff999rugby Fri 02 Mar 2018, 9:30 pm

On the other board claiming Henderson is holding out to see what happens to Olding.
It has occurred to me what happens if Jackson wants out and Olding wants to stay

Also sating P. Marshall will get another 1 year contract - from that I conclude Shanahan will be ditched

by Standulstermen Fri 02 Mar 2018, 9:33 pm

I dont think Ferris has any qualms about calling for Logans head in fairness boxing

I would definitely not rule out a SNAZAR coach but it needs to be someone with pedigree. Sadly Dave Rennie would have been perfect but most Kiwis especially take no Sh*t. So long as they are empowered to do that im happy. Geoff was mentioning the squad and if kissing Nuciforas ring is what it takes to make the requisite changes then pucker up Bryn or whoever. I think i did this a while back but going on Geoffs 41 odd basis

Moore, O'Toole, Herbst
Best, Herring, McBurney
(Dooley or NIQ), Warwick, O'Hagan, McCall
Hendo, Treadwell
O'Connor, Dalton,
Murphy, Coetzee, Reidy, Timoney, Hall, Ross (id keep him), Rea. (Agnew and Dunleavy in academy)
Cooney, Stewart, Shanahan
NIQ, McPhillips, Lowry/Curtis
McCloskey, Marshall, Cave, Hume, Curtis
Ludik, Stockdale, Lyttle, Gilroy, Nelson, IQ signing (Scholes/Jack Kelly?)

Theres about 37 with one nailed on NIQ at 10 and coetzee. If Dooley was landed forget about LH. Back five of the pack needs one more too whether its a top, top class lock or a good backrower. That would be 3 NIQS and i dont know if we would be allowed more. A fit Coetzee and two Muller/Wannenburg/Ruan/Terblanche kind of signings would be good leadership to bring through the youngters because thats what needs to happen for any renaissance to have longevity. O'Toole needs to be pushing Moore. McBurney needs to be pushing Herring. Dalton needs to be flying past O'Connor and Treadwell or else driving them on. The young guys in the backrow need to be pushing Murphy. Lowry and Curtis are decent ball players whether the latter plays centre or not.

Back three we look somewhat short but a good IQ scouting or project (im not 100% have we totally abandoned this now its 5yr). Time to earn your corn Bryn

Geoff i'd take what they are saying about Hendo with a pinch of salt. Would he really give up his international ambitions for Olding?

by geoff999rugby Fri 02 Mar 2018, 9:49 pm

The Henderson comment is from the other site - not anything I've heard.
The bad news is it comes from someone with obvious contacts
The good news is he has poor judgement in my view.
Be clear Henderson will not be messed around but as I said my view is the WC and his recent marriage are two powerful reason I don't think he will want to go.
The fact he went to school with Olding is why I raised the thorny question of what happens if Olding digs his heals in and is, effectively, force out. Cant see why Olding would want to stay but I raise the point.
Jackson will willing go I believe

Annoyingly someone who knows Olding and Henderson very well has invited me out for a drink on Thursday but I cant be in two places at the same time

by The Great Aukster Sat 03 Mar 2018, 9:17 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
profitius wrote:The IRFU should step in and give the organisation a spring clean and they've just the man to do that in Nucifora.
Nucifora has zero credibility north of the (hard) border, but that's irrelevant as the IRFU are probably rubbing their hands in glee at Ulster's woes. They will want to humble the Branch into total submission before offering any help. The Branch have not doffed their cap enough to D4, so they need to be broken and acknowledge who's boss before anything constructive can germinate.

Well the Committee members, Logan and Kiss were as humble as could be regarding Pienaer.
They could not have been any more submissive
Only Cunningham argued to keep him.

To be honest the IRFU can humiliate the committee members and Logan as much as they want - it is no more than they deserve for their gross incompetence in bringing this province to its knees

Baldrick's bluster was at least a season too late, and probably only served to convince the IRFU they were doing the right thing.

The IRFU have gained control over the Munster Branch on the back of bailing them out financially and Connacht because they had the sword of Damocles hanging over them. They have tried to bring the Ulster Branch into the professional era by suggesting changes to both the school and club systems that have been summarily dismissed by the Ulster Branch committee who are from the days when a try was worth 3 points. Until the grass roots level is brought into line with the rest of Ireland, the IRFU will keep their wallet closed and stand back as no more than an interested bystander

by geoff999rugby Sat 03 Mar 2018, 10:16 am

Difficult to complain about a decision before it is made Headscratch

At least he stood up to be counted - unlike Logan and Kiss

I don't agree the IRFU will wait till the grass roots is brought into line.
They will want to protect their interest.
I do agree it is an organisational change that is required.
Logan must go but we also must see a change in the committee members
Other than breathing their last breath I don't know how we get rid of these selfish,
self interested, ancient waste of spaces.

Just changing coaches will not be enough.
The reality is Cunningham is the only one with any authority left, below the committees.
Everyone else has fallen or will fall on their sword

by geoff999rugby Sat 03 Mar 2018, 10:33 am

The amateur nature of our province is throughout.
Take the office

Posted that the pitch was good for Cardiff this week - as Cardiff pointed out they had an alternative game.
This is the second time we have on social media posted a comment about playing the wrong team.

Look at the Season Ticket renewals.
Lot of stuff about getting mickey mouse stuff if you renew early i.e. before we know which European competition you are in.
No mention of when the last date of renewal is.
Rather than do the decent thing and reduce prices as one game less they offer a complementary ticket for a guess at one match.
So I sit in a seat, other Season Ticket holders sit either side of me - so where do our guests go.
Again not thought threw
They are many who will not renew anyway, there are a whole lot more who will not renew if we are in the Challenge Cup.
It is not on to charge the same price for an inferior product

To be honest Ulster rugby from top to bottom in a joke and the IRFU have to step in or it will collapse under its own incompetence
Shane Logans epitaph will not be World Domination, it could be the Death of Ulster rugby as a credible outfit

Cunningham is being directed by someone - its certainly not Logan, it might be committee members but I doubt it, I suspect it is the IRFU starting to make moves

by The Great Aukster Sat 03 Mar 2018, 10:44 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Difficult to complain about a decision before it is made

from BBC wrote:"Operations director Bryn Cunningham and director of rugby Les Kiss have been working with the IRFU over the past six months to reach a desirable outcome. Unfortunately, a contract extension was not possible due to the IRFU's succession policy," read the statement.

In response, the Irish Rugby Football Union's Performance Director David Nucifora said that the IRFU had "informed Ulster Rugby during the 2015-16 season that it would not sanction a further extension" of Pienaar's contract.

by Standulstermen Sat 03 Mar 2018, 10:46 am

If we are talking about rumours from the other site the word is Logan has already been told hes gone. Who by, i dont know.

by geoff999rugby Sat 03 Mar 2018, 5:03 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Difficult to complain about a decision before it is made

from BBC wrote:"Operations director Bryn Cunningham and director of rugby Les Kiss have been working with the IRFU over the past six months to reach a desirable outcome. Unfortunately, a contract extension was not possible due to the IRFU's succession policy," read the statement.

In response, the Irish Rugby Football Union's Performance Director David Nucifora said that the IRFU had "informed Ulster Rugby during the 2015-16 season that it would not sanction a further extension" of Pienaar's contract.

The thing is those two statements together don't make sense.

We are being asked to believe Ulster spent 6 months negotiating with the IRFU knowing the decision had been made the season before.
I call that out as nonsense.
I suspect the IRFU expressed concern/reservation in 15/16 and it is a case of the Beeb misquoting Nucifora
To be honest the standard of accuracy on the BBC website over the last few years has been appalling

by geoff999rugby Sat 03 Mar 2018, 5:07 pm

Been thinking about what are the Red lines re Season Ticket renewal.
Not necessarily for me but in general - I can think of 6

Logan must go
Henderson must stay
We must be in the Championship Cup
The Olding/Jackson decision must be handled professionally - not a shambles like the sacking of McLoughlin, or the panic following Anscombes departure. Given the sensitivity of the issue that would be unacceptable
NIQs - we need a credible LH, 10 and a fit backrower (a 4th NIQ will have to wait Deysel leaving)
What does the coaching set up look like - again needs to be credible

by clivemcl Sat 03 Mar 2018, 6:22 pm

We need some announcements re Payne and Coetzee. How long do they need?? If they are done they are done.

A while ago we were told Payne was training but not contact. Judging by recent video he looks to be just coaching which is a step down in terms of how close he is to returning.

by Redman Sat 03 Mar 2018, 6:36 pm

It'll be insurance Clive.

Payne is on a IRFU contract so however long it gets prolonged we're not paying for it. It might be that to continue to the pay out they may need to keep up the pretence of him returning. If he takes a career ending injury maybe they only pay out 50%? Not sure.

On Coetzee, it'll very much depend on what the various clauses are. I always took our statement to "standby" him with a healthy dose of scepticism. I don't think we had the option of cancelling the contract. If you're the insurance company and want to play hardball (which they are entitled to) you hold out before paying out on the contract. Remember when he got injured he was on a 3 year contract. If he returns for year 3 - 2018/2019, then the insurance company can stop paying Ulster as soon as he returns to active duty ...... even if that's as a shadow of his former self. Doesn't matter to them, as he can still "technically" play rugby.

That's my understanding albeit with a very limited grasp of the legals.

by Standulstermen Sat 03 Mar 2018, 7:12 pm

If the first op was botched then there is no reason why Coetzee cant return. Payne is surely done which is why we need to look to the youngsters.

by Redman Sat 03 Mar 2018, 7:42 pm

No one has ever been able to explain to me Coetzee's injury record.

> So he takes an ACL injury after he signs for us, but before he arrives.
> He recovers, plays a few games. Takes a knock and complains to our medical staff who say "play on son". He continues and turns out he's wrecked himself. Ulster explain that playing on had nothing to do with it and it was a MDL injury. He's out for rest of the season but it's unrelated to the ACL.
> He comes back for the start of the 2017/18 season. Plays a few games. Gets injured in training (I think). It's radio silence for a number of weeks and then they announce his ACL has been botched and he's going back to South Africa to speak to the original surgeon.

No one has ever explained how he was able to play 2 stints of professional rugby with a botched ACL, nor how it was missed that the original ACL surgery was botched?

by The Great Aukster Sun 04 Mar 2018, 3:20 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Difficult to complain about a decision before it is made

from BBC wrote:"Operations director Bryn Cunningham and director of rugby Les Kiss have been working with the IRFU over the past six months to reach a desirable outcome. Unfortunately, a contract extension was not possible due to the IRFU's succession policy," read the statement.

In response, the Irish Rugby Football Union's Performance Director David Nucifora said that the IRFU had "informed Ulster Rugby during the 2015-16 season that it would not sanction a further extension" of Pienaar's contract.

The thing is those two statements together don't make sense.

We are being asked to believe Ulster spent 6 months negotiating with the IRFU knowing the decision had been made the season before.
I call that out as nonsense.
I suspect the IRFU expressed concern/reservation in 15/16 and it is a case of the Beeb misquoting Nucifora
To be honest the standard of accuracy on the BBC website over the last few years has been appalling

There is a pattern. The outcome is completely consistent with the IRFU version. Where is the evidence to support the notion that the BBC is inaccurate?

by geoff999rugby Sun 04 Mar 2018, 10:19 am

The evidence is we are being asked believe Ulster spent 6 months negotiating a renewal for Pienaer after the decision has already been made
There were statements by Pienaer at this time stating his desire to stay.
The whole thing doesn't add up

Why would Ulster spend 6 months trying to negotiate a contract after the decision has been made ??

by geoff999rugby Sun 04 Mar 2018, 10:22 am

On Payne and Coetzee

I am no medical expert so I wont go there but everything I have heard is Payne will never play again.
At most he may do a Ferris like return play a few games and then call it a day

On Coetzee it is indeed all Insurance related but my understanding is he has to prove his fitness this summer
or his contract is null and void.
To be honest I think we were very generous to keep him on but I suspect if we had terminated in the autumn we may well have been liable for a hefty pay off.

by geoff999rugby Sun 04 Mar 2018, 2:31 pm

Worth a read

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulsters-lack-of-direction-is-the-most-frustrating-thing-of-all-36664848.html

by neilthom7 Sun 04 Mar 2018, 2:48 pm

There's a lot of hard truths in that article I suspect

by The Great Aukster Sun 04 Mar 2018, 4:20 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Difficult to complain about a decision before it is made

from BBC wrote:"Operations director Bryn Cunningham and director of rugby Les Kiss have been working with the IRFU over the past six months to reach a desirable outcome. Unfortunately, a contract extension was not possible due to the IRFU's succession policy," read the statement.

In response, the Irish Rugby Football Union's Performance Director David Nucifora said that the IRFU had "informed Ulster Rugby during the 2015-16 season that it would not sanction a further extension" of Pienaar's contract.

The thing is those two statements together don't make sense.

We are being asked to believe Ulster spent 6 months negotiating with the IRFU knowing the decision had been made the season before.
I call that out as nonsense.
I suspect the IRFU expressed concern/reservation in 15/16 and it is a case of the Beeb misquoting Nucifora
To be honest the standard of accuracy on the BBC website over the last few years has been appalling

Here is the same quote direct from the IRFU website:
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/37891.php
and from the IE:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/ruan-pienaar-i-dont-want-to-leave-ulster-418852.html

The statements were made at the start of the 16/17 season and six months before that would have been in the 15/16 season - when Nucifora told UR that there would be no extension. This resulted in Cunningham and Kiss trying to negotiate a "desirable outcome" for the next six months, without success.
Baldrick has great hind sight, but Ulster need someone with vision if things are going to improve, and that is something that Bryn has hitherto failed to demonstrate.

by Standulstermen Sun 04 Mar 2018, 7:57 pm

Good article and as critical you as you will hear from a local so fair play to Bradley. Demented Mole did a good article as did Fanning in the Independent. I think with the best will in the world that Cunningham is going be about Aukster so the proof of the pudding will be seen over the next few years.

Most interesting will be the coach

by geoff999rugby Sun 04 Mar 2018, 8:07 pm

That's true Stand.
The rumours coming out of Ulster appear to suggest Cunningham was not the go to man in terms of player identification but more the man negotiating the contracts.
That appears to have changed with Kiss leaving.
We will get a true sense of the mans worth in the coming year or so

by clivemcl Sun 04 Mar 2018, 8:30 pm

So is recruitment all on Bryn then now? No pressure! I assume Logan wouldn't know a good rugby player from a bad one, and can't see why we would let an outgoing interim head coach be involved.

by Standulstermen Sun 04 Mar 2018, 8:46 pm

well you would hope any new signings would be a collaborative exercise between new head coach and Cunningham. That said by the time we get the coach will all decent avenues for players have dried up

by clivemcl Sun 04 Mar 2018, 9:25 pm

Is that how it works though? Even if a new head coach is lined up, can they be involved in signings before they are actually here?

by Standulstermen Sun 04 Mar 2018, 9:51 pm

they could have a word surely. also whoever they are could potentially open up options or markets depending on experience and where they are from

by clivemcl Sun 04 Mar 2018, 9:53 pm

You’d like to think work towards potential signings will s already ongoing whereas the search for a coach is only beginning. I hope they don’t wait till a coach is sorted before continuing with on field recruiting.

by marty2086 Sun 04 Mar 2018, 11:59 pm

Article from Fanning today stating Gibbes is going to be coaching Waikato back home and some bits to cheer everyone up.

And further down the food chain the lack of development is compounded by the malaise that extends beyond the pro set-up and into the All-Ireland League. With no clubs in the top division of that competition, how can Ulster's academy players learn their trade at a decent level? Tommy O'Hagan for example - a very promising prop forward - should be battling in Division 1A and not three rungs down, where he spends his Saturdays with Rainey Old Boys.

If the Ulster side need, as a matter of urgency, a loosehead, a second row, a number six, an outhalf and a back three player, then off the field they need to look and sound like a professional rugby organisation.

It's inconceivable that the IRFU will not want some questions answered by Ulster CEO Shane Logan on his role in all of this. It seems remarkable in a time of crisis how the man at the top of the tree has been so hard to see.

Meantime, beneath him, there is a revolving door leading to the coach's suite, and great big gaps in the playing squad. This will probably get worse before it gets better.

by marty2086 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 9:08 am

Jono Gibbes named as new Waikato NPC rugby coach

by **rodders** Mon 05 Mar 2018, 10:01 am

geoff999rugby wrote:The evidence is we are being asked believe Ulster spent 6 months negotiating a renewal for Pienaer after the decision has already been made
There were statements by Pienaer at this time stating his desire to stay.
The whole thing doesn't add up

Why would Ulster spend 6 months trying to negotiate a contract after the decision has been made ??

They have actually known since 2013.

by geoff999rugby Mon 05 Mar 2018, 12:46 pm

Really ??? so they spent 6 months knowing it was a complete waste of time

I totally agree the IRFU expressed reservations and told Ulster they were not happy with an extension.
What I don't accept is that a definitive no was made clear.

by geoff999rugby Mon 05 Mar 2018, 12:51 pm

I see that the final date for Season Ticket renewal is Apr 30th - last year it was May 31st.
This is pretty insulting as we may well not know what competitions we are in next year.
Looks like a Province trying to bounce people into renewing knowing they may be offering an inferior product.
It has been the end of May for many years so why the change ?

Also the two year is a joke and another sign of panic.
The guess option (to make up for a lost home game) hasn't be thought through.
Were do they go if the ST holder has a seat ?

It is clear root and branch overhaul needed and that includes marketing and the office.
We are currently drowning in our organizational incompetence

When will our CEO do the decent thing and fall on his sword ?

by SecretFly Mon 05 Mar 2018, 12:53 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Really ??? so they spent 6 months knowing it was a complete waste of time

I totally agree the IRFU expressed reservations and told Ulster they were not happy with an extension.
What I don't accept is that a definitive no was made clear.

But it was more than reservations. If it was only reservations then Pienaer wouldn't be gone. The IRFU must has said bluntly enough, this isn't going to be a goer.
So was it more a case of Ulster trying to outlast an IRFU resolute 'no' (call the IRFU's bluff) and force them into a 'maybe'?

by marty2086 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 12:57 pm

Or was it a case of offer us something to balance out Pienaar staying and Ulster had nothing to give them or weren't willing to make the sacrifices required?

by clivemcl Mon 05 Mar 2018, 12:57 pm

Correct me if I’m wrong but did the re-signing of Nacewa by Leinster not give UR hope?? Was that not a similar situation?

by geoff999rugby Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:00 pm

In truth we will never know.
Never under estimate the power of miscommunication or a good old fashion cockup

In truth we have done this death and we need to focus on the dire situation we are in.
I honestly believe the very existence of the Province as a credible outfit is in danger.
The good news is there, at the 11th hour, seems to be some recognition that we have to change now
I cant see it being the committees so I suspect IRFU are making waves

Thursday needs to be forthright and honest and not a set of bland platitudes
I suspect their will be sufficient angry ST holders there who will not allow that to happen.
I hope Bryn will be forthcoming and straight with us, otherwise all manner of sh!t could hit the fan

by marty2086 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:03 pm

There's surely an argument to be made for Ulster being put on a similar path to Connacht, whereby they are exempt from the NIQ limits but for a set number of years and contingent on Ulster meeting criteria such as restructuring organisationally and in their development pathways. Failure to meet targets leads to a drop in funding etc

by SecretFly Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:05 pm

clivemcl wrote:Correct me if I’m wrong but did the re-signing of Nacewa by Leinster not give UR hope?? Was that not a similar situation?

First Nacewa went away...then he came back.
Who knows, if Ulster now get the right coach and leadership team on board, Pienaer might come back too to end his professional days with the Province?

by SecretFly Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:09 pm

marty2086 wrote:There's surely an argument to be made for Ulster being put on a similar path to Connacht, whereby they are exempt from the NIQ limits but for a set number of years and contingent on Ulster meeting criteria such as restructuring organisationally and in their development pathways. Failure to meet targets leads to a drop in funding etc

I think something like that could work. But there would have to be 'written-in-stone' guarantees of interior development pathways...and real punishment if the future becomes a lax topic if the foreign players are doing nicely.

by **rodders** Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:41 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Really ??? so they spent 6 months knowing it was a complete waste of time

I totally agree the IRFU expressed reservations and told Ulster they were not happy with an extension.
What I don't accept is that a definitive no was made clear.

Yes well I suspect as the IRFU compromised last time, on the basis that Pienaar was developing Jackson so I guess Ulster assumed they were bluffing but certainly it was made clear last time out that the contract would not be renewed.

by **rodders** Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:46 pm

clivemcl wrote:Correct me if I’m wrong but did the re-signing of Nacewa by Leinster not give UR hope?? Was that not a similar situation?

Nothing to do with it, scrum half was identified as a problem position for the IRFU with Reddan and Boss coming close to retirement and Leinster looking to sign an NIE 9.

Subsequently McGrath has emerged as a first team player at Leinster but the concern was if Pienaar stayed only 2 of the provinces would have starting 9's who were Irish qualified, which is below the IRFUs stated strategy of having 3 players in each position.

by marty2086 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:47 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Posted that the pitch was good for Cardiff this week - as Cardiff pointed out they had an alternative game.
This is the second time we have on social media posted a comment about playing the wrong team.

Forgot about this from a few weeks ago praising Ulsters social media engagement

Case study on how Ulster Rugby is maximising digital to engage with its audience

by geoff999rugby Mon 05 Mar 2018, 5:01 pm

Well the first thing they can do is rework the website - it is bloody awful

by geoff999rugby Tue 06 Mar 2018, 11:43 am

Interestingly on the other site KotH saying

1. Schmidt couldn’t wait to get rid of Kiss from Ireland.
2.Doak wasn’t allowed to address the team when Kiss was in charge.
3.Gibbes realised within the first 2months of the season he had made a huge mistake and was looking for a way out.

From what I have heard I would be inclined to believe all 3 of those statements

by Standulstermen Tue 06 Mar 2018, 12:05 pm

doesn't reflect well on Kiss or anyone in the organisation if Gibbes felt that way.

by marty2086 Tue 06 Mar 2018, 12:26 pm

Watched the RTE documentary on YouTube the other week about the Grand Slam win and there was nothing but praise for Kiss from players, Kidney and some journos. It shows how far his reputation has fallen

by marty2086 Tue 06 Mar 2018, 12:48 pm

Neil Doak is joining Worcester as attack and backs coach

by Redman Tue 06 Mar 2018, 1:31 pm

marty2086 wrote:Watched the RTE documentary on YouTube the other week about the Grand Slam win and there was nothing but praise for Kiss from players, Kidney and some journos. It shows how far his reputation has fallen

It is a strange one. I think he was geuininely thought of as a revolutionary. When he joined I have a vivid memory of Ferris on one of the couches saying he was probably the best defence coach in the world.

That's on the outside at least. I wonder if it's an element of being a 1 trick phone. He changed the game at that point in time with the choke tackle. It proved to be exactly what we needed at that point in time ....... but as the Americans say "what have you done for me lately?"

Joe would have been one of the first to realise that the rest of his understanding of the game was subpar or completely dependent on the choke tackle. Once teams started to figure out the choke tackle they started to figure out Kiss. Thus Joe needed to shift him out.

I don't know, but it's strange to see the complete mismatch of guinuine praise with quite obvious under performance.

by **rodders** Tue 06 Mar 2018, 1:43 pm

Redman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Watched the RTE documentary on YouTube the other week about the Grand Slam win and there was nothing but praise for Kiss from players, Kidney and some journos. It shows how far his reputation has fallen

It is a strange one. I think he was geuininely thought of as a revolutionary. When he joined I have a vivid memory of Ferris on one of the couches saying he was probably the best defence coach in the world.

That's on the outside at least. I wonder if it's an element of being a 1 trick phone. He changed the game at that point in time with the choke tackle. It proved to be exactly what we needed at that point in time ....... but as the Americans say "what have you done for me lately?"

Joe would have been one of the first to realise that the rest of his understanding of the game was subpar or completely dependent on the choke tackle. Once teams started to figure out the choke tackle they started to figure out Kiss. Thus Joe needed to shift him out.

I don't know, but it's strange to see the complete mismatch of guinuine praise with quite obvious under performance.

I thought the issues with Kiss started after the 2011 RWC?

Kidney elevated him to attack/backs coach around 2012 as a response to the Leinster contingent pushing for involvement from Schmidt to help Ireland's malfunctioning attack.

He was always highly regarded as a defense coach but I suppose the issue is that is all he was and when his remit encroached into areas beyond this he was found to be out of his depth.

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