Ulster Rugby 2017-18

by Kingshu Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was thinkung similar McCloskey for me has been better than Arnold and Farrell and just isnt being picked. Hopefully a resurgent Ulster will make it all better

by toml Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:30 pm

I would consider myself quite liberal (that means very liberal for a protestant in Ulster),but I still wouldn't want these guys back at Ravenhill even if they were found innocent.
As a group I think they have been shown to have very little respect for women. One thing that hasnt been mentioned much is the power dynamic of fairly famous sports stars abusing their status for their own personal desires. I know this is nothing new
(Rock bands of the 60s/70s and their groupies) but I think as a society we need to set an example to young women, that somone famous shouldn't have an increased sway over them.
The alledged victim at the time was 19 and resitting het a levels. She hadnt even left school. Some 19 year old girls can be very naive. Some 19 year old girls can still have one direction posters on the wall. I dont really know how to verbalise what I am trying to say, but I wouldnt want my daughter to feel she had done something right by having sex with someone because they were famous. I would like her to feel equal and not overwhelmed.

by neilthom7 Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:09 pm

I would say that whether I would want them back would depend entirely on what type of not guilty was issued (if indeed they were found not guilty) If it was the kind of not guilty were they didn't do anything wrong, that it was consensual then yeah they should be allowed back.
Given that it's much more likely they will be found innocent because it can't be proven either way then no I would not want them back.

On the subject of role models, I think no sportsman should ever be considered a role model. These guys are playing for Ulster because they are good rugby players, you don't pick people based on how much of a role model they are. They are not special, they are not role models, all they are is good at rugby.
The Pope is a role model, head of churches are role models but not sports stars. I will only make a sports star a role model to my children if they actually are a role model in their lives and nothing to do with their sport. It's a modern thing that I hate, just because they are famous or good at sports does not make anyone a role model and deciding if they should be allowed to play sport professionally based on how good of a role model they are is in my opinion nonsense.

by marty2086 Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:21 pm

It's a good point you made tom, at the same time though there are those who chase celebrity and I've seen it happen, it's the WAG culture and everything around that. I've also seen jumped up little prats who think they are gods gift because they have name someone might recognise. Also how many of us at 19 thought we were wiser than we were? I'm sure we are all thinking we are wiser than we are still.

At the end of the day none of us will ever know what happened and it probably would be best to get rid but for me it's just a dangerous precedent to set, how many journos start sniffing round looking for other players who were in Whatsapp groups talking cr@p? Or players who have fallen out with mates, girlfriends or whoever who think I'll publish something that'll make them look bad and ends up with them being fired?

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:53 pm

I tend to agree with Tom it is the disrespect of women I find unpalatable.
That is there regardless of the verdict.
No they are not role models but would I want people who behaved in this manner working in my company - the answer is no.
Maybe, like Tom having a young daughter makes me sensitive to this.
I would not want her to go anywhere near them.

Loutish behaviour I can forgive; treating other human beings as play things I cannot.
If it was only text it would have been a wrap over the knuckles and that's it, but combined with the activity it is a step too far.

Neil bringing up leaders of the church is probably not the best given some of their members activities towards
minors over the last 100 years.

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:56 pm

Gibbes has been offered a full Head Coach contract.
Still not sure he will take it though

by neilthom7 Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:04 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:I tend to agree with Tom it is the disrespect of women I find unpalatable.
That is there regardless of the verdict.
No they are not role models but would I want people who behaved in this manner working in my company - the answer is no.
Maybe, like Tom having a young daughter makes me sensitive to this.
I would not want her to go anywhere near them.

Loutish behaviour I can forgive; treating other human beings as play things I cannot.
If it was only text it would have been a wrap over the knuckles and that's it, but combined with the activity it is a step too far.

Neil bringing up leaders of the church is probably not the best given some of their members activities towards
minors over the last 100 years.

Fair point Geoff, I just meant that they are actually meant to be role models and what not where as rugby players are people who are just talented at rugby.
I think part of the issue is we treat rugby players, footballers etc as though they are something special, they are not, they are just very good at a sport many of us like to watch, in the same way there are talented mathematicians, lawyers etc

There is a good point in Marty's response though that we do have to be a bit careful we don't set a dangerous precedent where someone could just accuse someone of something and while that person might not go to jail if it cannot be proven they could lose their job etc.

We also have a duty to ensure that things like the allegations have been made don't happen as they are truly horrible crimes.

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:31 pm

Don't disagree with any of that.

Absolutely on the point of an accusation alone can never ever be enough.
However in this case we have heard enough to highlight what their attitude to women is.

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:33 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:

The rumours I am hearing is it will all be about stability going forward and fixes to the structures:
- Gibbes offered an extended contract as HQ - not sure yet if he will accept
- New CEO on the way
- Cunningham to take on a bigger role and be central to new player selection which it would appear he wasn't previously
- No more box office signings ala Piatau; only ones that meet the playing needs of the team
- NIQ signings will at a minimum but high quality - vDM gone this summer, Deysel next, Coetzee this summer if not fit to play
- Groundswell building that if innocent the two lads should stay - this runs counter to the committee wishes - but appears players want to go as well so mutual consent will be the official line

Bottom line is it has to be about making Ulster a rugby team better 1st, 2nd and 3rd otherwise we will implode
No more the case that money is the be all and end all or that the atmosphere or the culture need to be created.
Not dismissing those things but get the rugby right is to be the single minded aim and the other things will happen naturally.
Should add Gibbes now he is in charge reckons there is an absolute mountain to climb before this team are up to standard.
He was shocked how poor professionally we were when he arrived

Quoting myself in the hope we can return to Ulster and its future.
To be clear I have made significant modifications to reflect what appears to be a fast moving situation.
So this is NOT a verbatim quote
As, I think, Stand said this is far more relevant than the two lads who will be long gone during this process.

by neilthom7 Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:39 pm

It is a huge job for whoever will be in charge will have ahead of them, there are so many broken bits in Ulster Rugby that it's almost hard to know where to start with fixing them

by toml Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:47 pm

If Gibbes accepts he is probably the right man for the job, if he doesnt he isnt. He knows the challenge ahead of him and could have an easier ride in Sydney

by toml Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:52 pm

I have listened to Jim Hamilton before talking about the culture they built at Saracens before they were successful. Leinster have a culture. Munster in their hayday had a great culture. Pat Lam built a culture in Connaught.
How desperately do we need something similar.

by marty2086 Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:02 pm

neilthom7 wrote:
There is a good point in Marty's response though that we do have to be a bit careful we don't set a dangerous precedent where someone could just accuse someone of something and while that person might not go to jail if it cannot be proven they could lose their job etc.

We also have a duty to ensure that things like the allegations have been made don't happen as they are truly horrible crimes.

I wasn't meaning accusations but more texts etc that in the wrong context could look bad.

by Standulstermen Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:16 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Gibbes has been offered a full Head Coach contract.
Still not sure he will take it though

If he did i think i would renew. My boy is mad about the rugby now so if i commit to going back i need to be sure as the cost is going to go up. Gibbes being about would be a step that they know whats required and what it will take to get there

by clivemcl Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:03 am

I concede my knowledge may be poor compared to some, but I guess I’m wondering why some would be happy with Gibbes compared with a fresh search.
I assume the argument will be given that he has inherited a mess from Kiss, that there’s an injury mess, that he should get the full chance including a pre-season before we judge him.
And it may be the correct argument.
It just feels like stuff we’ve heard before.
I guess I’d just like a head coach with head coach experience. A known name. I’d genuinely take EOS. But yea, I know that’s probably the superficial Facebook fan stance. Sorry

by Standulstermen Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:58 am

Gibbes moreso than any of our previous coaches has pedigree. Look what he did down the road and in Clermont. He also comes across as someone who takes no Poopie which will be invaluable

by geoff999rugby Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:23 am

toml wrote:If Gibbes accepts he is probably the right man for the job, if he doesnt he isnt. He knows the challenge ahead of him and could have an easier ride in Sydney

That would be my view
He knows the score and will be under no illusion of what lies ahead.

He has a pedigree as a Forwards coach - Leinster and Clermont are none to shabby

Kiss, Anscombe, McLoughlin, McCall (at the time of appointment) don't come remotely close
Matt Williams had the experience but as a failure not a success

by marty2086 Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:45 am

Seems Gibbes isn't the man

by Sin é Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:50 am

toml wrote:I have listened to Jim Hamilton before talking about the culture they built at Saracens before they were successful. Leinster have a culture. Munster in their hayday had a great culture. Pat Lam built a culture in Connaught.
How desperately do we need something similar.

Munster still has a great culture. Look what they have been through over the last couple of years (Axel, Rassie). Look at how easy they attract players to it.

by toml Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am

Well thats that, Gibbes felt he wasnt up to the job. Shows how big of a mountain is ahead of us. I think we have to go big. The only person in Ireland worth considering is Andy Farrell, but he is short on experience at the Helm. Doubt Lancaster would leave Leinster.
I think we need someone with serious pedigree and a fresh approach. Vern Cotter standard. Spend the money Piatau is freeing up on the DOR. No more head coach Poopie. Edinburgh look a different team under Cockerill, he has had a clear out and made them a tough team. Who could do that for us?

by marty2086 Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:04 am

tom you spoke about creating a culture, Brendan Venter surely is a man that could be considered for that. He laid the foundations at Saracens and has the experience and pedigree

by **rodders** Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:24 am

toml wrote:I have listened to Jim Hamilton before talking about the culture they built at Saracens before they were successful. Leinster have a culture. Munster in their hayday had a great culture. Pat Lam built a culture in Connaught.
How desperately do we need something similar.

Except a culture isn't developed by one man, everyone in the organisation needs to buy into it. If you read the book "legacy" it gives a great insight into how the ABs developed their modern culture of excellence after a period of disarray on and off the field in the early stages of professionalism.

Their are similarities with Schmidts approach with Ireland and why he doesn't select certain players, irrespective of their on field ability.

The problem at Ulster is that the coaches they bring in have to operate with one hand tied behind their back because of the jobs for the boys approach and legacy of arrogance from the amateur era that still runs through the branch.

This is the culture that needs addressed but continually is just papered over temporarily by the odd marquee signing or restructuring of the coaching team.

Anyone who has tried to challenge this has been weeded out, like McLaughlin and Anscombe and would expect Farrell or Gibbes would meet the same resistance.

by Redman Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am

You can forget the family stuff. As Geoff said, he knew what the job was and he didn't fancy it. That bodes fairly badly for the future that a guy of his experience doesn't feel he's upto the job.

Still, is what it is, we need to a complete clear out and start again. Someone with a proven track record of promoting youth and building foundations.

by toml Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:42 am

Maybe we need to clear the whole Ulster boardroom, have the IRFU choose a top level CEO and then have the ST holders elect a board, ending the jobs for the boys sh1te.
Bryn Cunningham seems to be unpopular, but to me he seems to be one person who has an appetite to make Ulster better, again it sounds like he has been fairly well restrained.

by clivemcl Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:44 am

It just gets worse for Ulster. Not that I felt strongly I wanted Gibbes, but the fact UR wanted him and he turned them down just adds to the downward spiral and PR disaster.
Are we now a poisoned chalice in the rugby world. A bad reputation yet?

by marty2086 Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:49 am

If Gibbes has been courted by Cheika then it might not be about the challenge but the opportunity it provides, an assistant job at Test level can open more doors than a head coach one at club level.

If a new Chief Exec is coming in there are also a lot of unknowns, unlikely if Logan is leaving that a successor will be in place anytime soon so it's a big risk as he could be handcuffed by an overbearing boss

by toml Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:49 am

5 minutes research and everyone without a massive stomach for BS will turn us down

by Sin é Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:13 pm

How about Jim Mallinder? He did a good job with Northampton. Other person I think who might be good is Rob Penney. Big personality and really good with young players. David Humphreys thought his personality was too strong for Ulster when Ulster recruited Anscombe and Munster Penney.

by Pete330v2 Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:25 pm

I am relieved to be honest, we can now start waving a big fat cheque around and hopefully attract an experienced head coach. None of the DOR rubbish to blur the lines of command, just a head coach. We need a forwards coach obviously as well as a defence coach. Time to do another global search eh?

Gibbes may be many things but experience at head coach is something he's missing.

by marty2086 Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:37 pm

Pete, it will all depend on if Dundon and Peel stay or go and if a new coach is given free reign to create their own setup. If Payne is to retire then for me he has to be kept around even move him into the academy and give him room to develop as a coach and pass his knowledge on to the next generation.

by Pete330v2 Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:52 pm

marty2086 wrote:Pete, it will all depend on if Dundon and Peel stay or go and if a new coach is given free reign to create their own setup. If Payne is to retire then for me he has to be kept around even move him into the academy and give him room to develop as a coach and pass his knowledge on to the next generation.

If we were to get a decent coach wouldn't he be better to bring in his own team anyway Marty?
Perhaps Ulster will be the proverbial sinking ship and Dundon and Peel will end that speculation themselves.
It really has been one thing on top of another this season but I don't for a second think that Ulster will be seen as a poisoned chalice. It'll be a challenge but if a head coach doesn't love a challenge then we don't want that particular head coach. I'm sure we're somewhere near the rock bottom that this group of players can achieve so to get a sizeable improvement wouldn't be that difficult a job for a coach worth his salt so lets hope they'll start lining up now with their best suits and CVs at the ready.

What must Moore and Murphy think ?

What must Doak and Clarke think ?

Final thought......Eddie O'Sullivan has been circling Ravers for some time now like a vulture eyeing up the dying beast.

by **rodders** Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:55 pm

Looks like Farrell is being lined up after the next RWC. They've known for some time Gibbs was leaving the question is who will manage in the interim if he leaves in the summer.

Eddie is not interested because he is busy with this American venture of converting ex NFL players to rugby.

by marty2086 Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:24 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Pete, it will all depend on if Dundon and Peel stay or go and if a new coach is given free reign to create their own setup. If Payne is to retire then for me he has to be kept around even move him into the academy and give him room to develop as a coach and pass his knowledge on to the next generation.

If we were to get a decent coach wouldn't he be better to bring in his own team anyway Marty?
Perhaps Ulster will be the proverbial sinking ship and Dundon and Peel will end that speculation themselves.
It really has been one thing on top of another this season but I don't for a second think that Ulster will be seen as a poisoned chalice. It'll be a challenge but if a head coach doesn't love a challenge then we don't want that particular head coach. I'm sure we're somewhere near the rock bottom that this group of players can achieve so to get a sizeable improvement wouldn't be that difficult a job for a coach worth his salt so lets hope they'll start lining up now with their best suits and CVs at the ready.

What must Moore and Murphy think ?

What must Doak and Clarke think ?

Final thought......Eddie O'Sullivan has been circling Ravers for some time now like a vulture eyeing up the dying beast.

If Dundon and Peel are good coaches there might be value in keeping them around, makes a transition easier but do think it has to be up to whoever will be in charge. It'll come down to what happens next, will Logan stay or go and if he goes who comes in and what will they bring to the table? What will Bryn look to do with his new found power?

Tune in next week to Ulster in Crisis....

by Standulstermen Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:27 pm

There may be value in keeping them on but realistically we should learn from our mistakes and let whoever is coming in do so with a clean slate. Penney is a good shout from Sin but i doubt he would be tempted back after making Japanese money. Its hard to say who is about in the SH with guys like Rennie and Chris Boyd snapped up.

Maybe a Tony Brown but he might be in Japan too at present. Whoever they identify needs to be given 100% control over the team affairs though with zero meddling.

by geoff999rugby Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:37 pm

rodders wrote:Looks like Farrell is being lined up after the next RWC. They've known for some time Gibbs was leaving the question is who will manage in the interim if he leaves in the summer.

That would be an awful decision.
Nothing wrong with Farrell but we simply cant afford to tread water for 18 months + till he becomes free.
We need to get this sorted and sorted NOW

Dundoon and Peel stay or go - should be totally up to a new Head Coach.
No one else counts and no one else should be involved.

Since Humphreys left our Committees and our CEO have been an incompetent disgrace.
They were incompetent before just the rugby under Humphreys, McLoughlin and Muller hid that fact

As for Gibbes as I suspected he never really wanted the top job and when he realised what a shambles we are he definitely didn't want it

by clivemcl Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:37 pm

I seriously hope we aren’t being given another IRFU cast off that we will be expected to wait over a season for. We need to start building this back up. Without delay.

Edit: beat me to it Geoff!

by geoff999rugby Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:44 pm

Still no Henderson signed for next year

If you were him would you sign ???

I'd be cheeky and ask for a 1 year contract to see me through to the World Cup.
That or go suggest going south to join Munster alongside Bierne

The good news is he is just married so probably not interested in going anywhere.
In reality that and the World Cup are the two things that will stop him going - otherwise I think he would

Thought I'd cheer you up Smile

by marty2086 Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:48 pm

geoff, talking about the committees, who has the power to overhaul and changes things within Ulster?

by clivemcl Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:48 pm

I could see him head down the road to be honest. He’s probably making mates in Ireland squad, his closest mates are caught up in a controversy, the club is a mess. I wouldn’t be all that surprised if he looked for fresh start elsewhere too. Who knows if his wife would mind. I think mcKinleys girlfriend moved with him to Italy.

by geoff999rugby Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:04 pm

Henderson did go to school with Olding but since his marriage he has led a very different life style to Olding and Jackson, and to be fair he always has
I put across Munster as an alternative very much tongue in cheek - nothing to suggest it will happen - yet

The committees are a funny one.
Sometimes seem to a law to themselves and are seen as custodians of the game here.
Sadly our lot seem more interested in ensuring they get plenty of freebies and travelling benefits than doing anything to progress Ulster rugby
I suspect IRFU would have to step in to oust our fossilized, selfish waste of spaces

In all of this our CEO has been so absent he should charged with dereliction of duty.
Has taken the phrase 'waste of space' to a whole new level

by Redman Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:30 pm

You have to wonder why they've sacked Kiss without being sure that Gibbs was here for the long term.

Poor performance happens, sacking coaches happen. But for this to play out twice in the space of 2 months is just shocking.

by **profitius** Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:46 pm

The IRFU should step in and give the organisation a spring clean and they've just the man to do that in Nucifora.

Its not all bad as they've now a chance to make changes. Things are a mess in Ulster but it can be turned around fairly quickly. What is needed is a big personality who will demand the respect of the players. Les Kiss was too quiet and laid back.

On the playing side the deadwood needs to be removed. No offence to them but there are too many plodders there especially in the front row.

Is Bryn Cunningham in charge of the signings? If so he needs to be removed. Signing big name, injury prone players is not the way to go. Piutau has been good but they should spend those wages on some forwards. Jordi Murphy is a good start. I'm not sure about Marty Moore though.

- Start a new rebuild of the squad. Make sure good foundations are laid.
- Get in a good coaching team that take no sh!te.
- Clear out the poor players and those with a bad attitude.
- Blood the next generation. Short term pain for long term gain. Now is the time.
- Change the player signing strategy to get more bang for their buck.

by geoff999rugby Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:57 pm

In principal I agree but a few points

The issue is bigger than just the rugby - major overhaul of committees i.e. New members required
New CEO required.

Nucifora comes with baggage here - but if he does the right thing then let bygones be bygones
It is becoming clear Cunningham has not been responsible for selecting players just negotiating contracts
Moore is better than any TH we have currently

We could get rid of most of the following and there would be no great loss
Simpson
vanDeMerwe
Ross
Cairns
Herron
Patterson
Owens
Busby
Ah You
Browne
Deysel

Not good enough but we need the numbers
Warwick
Kane
Reidy
Shanahan
Nelson

Past It
Henry
Marshall
Trimble

4 decent NIQ needed - there are currently no fit NIQ staying on next year who are of the required standard
LH
Lock
Backrow
Fly Half

That, by my fag package calculations, gives us a squad of 41 of whom 13 are very inexperienced - assumes the better Academy players get full contracts
Of the 13 the ones with the most caps are McPhillips, Rea, Jones and Stewart (for this purpose I have elevated Timoney to the senior level)

by The Great Aukster Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:30 pm

profitius wrote:The IRFU should step in and give the organisation a spring clean and they've just the man to do that in Nucifora.

Nucifora has zero credibility north of the (hard) border, but that's irrelevant as the IRFU are probably rubbing their hands in glee at Ulster's woes. They will want to humble the Branch into total submission before offering any help. The Branch have not doffed their cap enough to D4, so they need to be broken and acknowledge who's boss before anything constructive can germinate.

by Pete330v2 Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:36 pm

This in from t'other forum. Apparently Ferris on Radio Ulster essentially saying Logan is a coward and Paddy Wallace calling for him to resign.
I tend to agree, where the hell is our elusive leader during this latest crisis? Hiding under his huge bank statements?

by SecretFly Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:40 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
profitius wrote:The IRFU should step in and give the organisation a spring clean and they've just the man to do that in Nucifora.
Nucifora has zero credibility north of the (hard) border, but that's irrelevant as the IRFU are probably rubbing their hands in glee at Ulster's woes. They will want to humble the Branch into total submission before offering any help. The Branch have not doffed their cap enough to D4, so they need to be broken and acknowledge who's boss before anything constructive can germinate.

The IRFU are not that bad, Aukster. All they're asking is for all Ulster players to salute Nucifora and cry "Hail Nucifora!" before all home games.
That's reasonable enough, I think.................. Run

by Don Alfonso Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:56 pm

I always get frustrated by the "who would coach us now?" histrionics.

Someone with a bit of vision and drive. Someone that's happy to dig deep and make a difference. Given our resources and fan base, we should be able to get our equivalent of of Vern Cotter for Scotland.

Thanks Jonno. Coming to the end of the season, our forwards don't look any better coached. So you've equalled Allen Clarke. Well done.

by Pot Hale Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:38 pm

Ulster should get an Irish or English coach in. Bernard Jackman, Eddie O’Sullivan, Jim Mallinder - no SANZAR coaches.

by clivemcl Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:13 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43264496

Finally. Public calls for Logan to go. Seamus certainly led the Ferris and Wallace to directly state what I think they’d have preferred to only allude to.
Will this do much though? Does Shane feel pressure though? Or does he just hide away?

by geoff999rugby Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:23 pm

Redman wrote:You have to wonder why they've sacked Kiss without being sure that Gibbs was here for the long term.

That is very simple to explain.
Kiss simply had to go - he was no longer credible.
Ulster rugby believed that Gibbes would accept the job of Head Coach in reality and not just in name.
However, as I explained here, he never seemed convinced he wanted to be a Head Coach.
Combine that with the fact it dawned on him the job required was monumental and I suspect he said f**k that there are more enjoyable and fulfilling roles to perform nearer home.

by geoff999rugby Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:25 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:This in from t'other forum. Apparently Ferris on Radio Ulster essentially saying Logan is a coward and Paddy Wallace calling for him to resign.
I tend to agree, where the hell is our elusive leader during this latest crisis? Hiding under his huge bank statements?

Logan is as dead in the water as it is possible to be.
There seems to be a suspicion that he is only hanging around till the outcome of the trial.
He will tidy up any lose ends related to that and then he is fired (they will call it resigned)

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