6 Nations:Ireland v Scotland - An Craic Mór - 10 Mar 2018

First topic message reminder :

Forget the Tiddlywinks at Twickers, this one’s the proper test match with soaring Scotland taking on their Ivernian cousins.  

Ireland have it all to do on their home turf to keep their championship tilt going, and Scotland have the bit between their teeth to snatch it from them and head into the final round ready to rack up a cricket score against the hapless Italians to try reach top of the table.

Scotland started cold and lost heavily to Wales but now they’ve got their game together, they could be on a roll.  But as their coach has pointed out, their away record in the last decade has been dismal.  That’s the hurdle they have to overcome.  They have the players, the skills, and a successful game plan if they can beat Ireland at their own game at the breakdown.  

Ireland started without a few players like O’Brien, Ringrose, and then lost Furlong, Henderson and Henshaw.  All the replacements stood up - VdF, Leavy, Farrell, Porter, Ryan - and then a couple of them got injured.  But the timing looks good as Furlong, Henderson, and Ringrose are ready to re-enter the fray.  O’Brien could be back for the final round.  

Schmidt has some thinking to do on how he can outwit Townsend - attempting 60-70% possession with constant pick and goes isn’t going to cut it.  Will Sexton have his kicking boots back?   Will yet another midfield continue to weaken the defensive line?   On the other hand, will Russell turn from hero to zero if his looping passes fail to hit their target and Fall into the hands of Stockdale or Earls instead?

Both sides haven’t been shy about scoring, although they go about it in completely different ways.   Let’s see if they can keep it up.

Paddies

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 81 caps
14. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 65 caps
13. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 11 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 5 caps
11. Jacob Stockdale (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 7 caps
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 71 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 62 caps

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 76 caps
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 109 caps
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 21 caps
4. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 6 caps
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 56 caps
6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 45 caps
7. Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster) 7 caps
8. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 21 caps

Replacements
16. Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 59 caps
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 45 caps
18. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 5 caps
19. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 36 caps
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 18 caps
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 19 caps
22. Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 8 caps
23. Jordan Larmour (St Mary's College/Leinster) 1 cap

Lovely Scotsmen

Whiffy Tops
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors), Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh), Huw Jones Glasgow Warriors), Sean Maitland (Saracens), Peter Horne (Glasgow Warriors), Finn Russsell (Glasgow Warriors), Greig Laidlaw (Clermont Auvergne),
Beautiful Rumblers
Gordon Reid (London Irish), Stuart McInally (Edinburgh), Simon Berghan (Edinburgh), Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh), Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors), John Barclay (Scarlets, captain), Hamish Watson Edinburgh), Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors).
Extras:
Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors), Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors), Willem Nel (Edinburgh), Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors), David Denton (Worcester Warriors), Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors), Nick Grigg (Glasgow Warriors), Lee Jones (Glasgow Warriors).

George Carlin wrote:

Yoda wrote:It could all come down to breakdown interpretation. Who's the ref? Poite style ref compared to  Barnes type ref would be the extremes. Hopefully nigel is incharge he likes a fast pace and doesn't miss a thing whilst being sympathetic with the game. England fan BTW with no whinges. Looking forward to this clash!

Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Assistant 1: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Luke Pearce (England)
TMO: George Ayoub (Australia)

Oh boy Barnes doesn't like Ireland's breakdown does he or sexton! Could be significant but I sincerely hope not. Still looking forward to it more than the France England match. Best of luck boys and may the best team win!

jimbopip wrote:Apparently Tim Visser is not in the squad because he injured his head playing for Harleyqueens at the weekend.

How many times have we begged him to be careful and not throw himself recklessly into tackles?

The man has no sense of self-preservation.

His attempt for baths try was pretty comical.

I see Scotland have gotten their 'Ref Appeal' in.  These are becoming the norm.

Mike Blair says: "We are trying to play a good brand of rugby and I hope the officials appreciate what we're trying to do."

The inference was in reference to Gatland's comments about Ireland slowing play down and cutting the amount of time the ball was in play.

Good side Ireland!  They even control TIME!

Anyway, appealing to Barnes of all people.  Not exactly an urgent request when it comes to us and him (over to Guns for the scientific details)

But I just laughed a little.  Ireland play a pretty good brand of rugby themselves - maybe not the prettiest and daintiest but hard boiled and at times ravishingly physical.  Maybe Ireland should appeal to refs for less ballet and tap-dancing tolerance and allow more time for rugged MMA fistfighting?

Its a lottery when Barnes refs two neutral sides in terms of which he will lean towards. He seems to be the sort of person that needs to feel in charge. If you challenge that he will make things difficult.

Barnes is more picky than some. Less "let the offence go for the flow of the game"

It will be interesting to see which team again can adapt best / get on the right side of him. Both teams will be pushing their luck at the breakdown I suspect.

I have no issue with Barnses reffing - a fine ref. He will want precision at the breakdown tho and I suspect will allow less time to fight for the ball.

TJ wrote:Barnes is more picky than some.  Less "let the offence go for the flow of the game"

It will be interesting to see which team again can adapt best / get on the right side of him.  Both teams will be pushing their luck at the breakdown I suspect.  

I have no issue with Barnses reffing - a fine ref.  He will want precision at the breakdown tho and I suspect will allow less time to fight for the ball.

I agree, Barnes, Owens and Poite are my top refs. Barnes I feel is a really good ref who makes good decisions.

No issue with Barnes as referee, he is a very good referee and as TJ states, it is down to which team adapts to him first. In the past, Ireland have not been wise enough to adapt to him which leads to some people thinking he has a dislike for Ireland and is the reason why Ireland lose so much under him.

eirebilly wrote:No issue with Barnes as referee, he is a very good referee and as TJ states, it is down to which team adapts to him first. In the past, Ireland have not been wise enough to adapt to him which leads to some people thinking he has a dislike for Ireland and is the reason why Ireland lose so much under him.

Nice try Billy but I doubt Barnes is reading this thread.

Just wait and see what the penalty count is on Saturday for Ireland.

Point stands rodders, Barnes is a top referee but is overly pedantic with his breakdown rulings which disrupts Irelands game plan. This is not new information, it is very old and it is up to Ireland to adjust to his rulings not for Barnes to adjust to Irelands playing style.

Sorry Billy but that is not the case at all, he lets the opposition away with murder at the breakdown and then pings Ireland.

Take a look at last seasons game against Wales for an example of how one sided he is.

Rory Best just laughed at one point as he was on to Barnes about Wales slowing the ball down all game, then the first time Ireland compete he pings them for doing the same.

He's a complete crook.

So you think he is specifically biased against Ireland rodders?

eirebilly wrote:Point stands rodders, Barnes is a top referee but is overly pedantic with his breakdown rulings which disrupts Irelands game plan. This is not new information, it is very old and it is up to Ireland to adjust to his rulings not for Barnes to adjust to Irelands playing style.

It's not as if Scotland don't get up to skullduggery at the breakdown. However Barclay typically has a good rapor with Barnes, he manages him quite well.

eirebilly wrote:So you think he is specifically biased against Ireland rodders?

Yes.

I do to. Not sure if it is conscious or sub conscious but he is definitely shows bias.

I also don't think it is right to have an English ref for this game when England's best hope to win the championship is for an Ireland loss.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Point stands rodders, Barnes is a top referee but is overly pedantic with his breakdown rulings which disrupts Irelands game plan. This is not new information, it is very old and it is up to Ireland to adjust to his rulings not for Barnes to adjust to Irelands playing style.

It's not as if Scotland don't get up to skullduggery at the breakdown. However Barclay typically has a good rapor with Barnes, he manages him quite well.

All teams are not innocent at the breakdown but I would say that Ireland and the All Blacks are the two teams that are on the boarder line at the breakdown more than any other teams. Barnes' pedantry is at the breakdown, its known and teams have to adjust.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:So you think he is specifically biased against Ireland rodders?

Yes.

Disagree entirely rodders. Do Wales have a right to say that Jackson was biased against them last game as he did not allow them to compete at the breakdown?

I disagree. That really isn't reflected in Ireland's overall penalty count over the last 10 years. NZ maybe but Ireland tend to be very disciplined overall.

eirebilly wrote:So you think he is specifically biased against Ireland rodders?

And Saints.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:So you think he is specifically biased against Ireland rodders?

Yes.

Disagree entirely rodders. Do Wales have a right to say that Jackson was biased against them last game as he did not allow them to compete at the breakdown?

Well that is for Wales to decide but we aren't talking about one game here, there is a pattern over many years of Barnes one sided refereeing against Ireland.

Remember Ferris yellow card for tackling Davies, where one foot leaves the ground and in the same game Davies gets a yellow for drop Ryan on his head in one of the worst tip tackles you'll ever see?

Ridiculous decisions again and again with Barnes and all in the same direction.

rodders wrote:

Remember Ferris yellow card for tackling Davies, where one foot leaves the ground and in the same game Davies gets a yellow for drop Ryan on his head in one of the worst tip tackles you'll ever see?

Ridiculous decisions again and again with Barnes and all in the same direction.

As I recall, Barnes asked for information from the assistant referee in that instance as he did not see it and it was the assistant referee that said it was a yellow card only. That was not Barnes' call.

Again, I feel that teams have to adjust to certain referee's as the consistency in refereeing is not there.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:So you think he is specifically biased against Ireland rodders?

Yes.

Disagree entirely rodders. Do Wales have a right to say that Jackson was biased against them last game as he did not allow them to compete at the breakdown?

Well that is for Wales to decide but we aren't talking about one game here, there is a pattern over many years of Barnes one sided refereeing against Ireland.

Remember Ferris yellow card for tackling Davies, where one foot leaves the ground and in the same game Davies gets a yellow for drop Ryan on his head in one of the worst tip tackles you'll ever see?

Ridiculous decisions again and again with Barnes and all in the same direction.

It was subsequently confirmed that that yellow Ferris got wasn't even a penalty however, it was a penalty to win the game and gifted the Welsh a victory in a game Bradley Davies should have got one of the most obvious red cards in a rugby match.

In the '09 match Barnes wouldn't let Ferris leave the pitch even though a bone was protruding from his hand.

Blunder after blunder over time Barnes has proven himself to be easily the worst ref going and definitely shows bias against Ireland IMO.

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/stephen-ferris-gives-more-detail-on-his-and-irelands-least-favourite-referee-323584

Jeez, you guys are getting your excuses in really early

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Remember Ferris yellow card for tackling Davies, where one foot leaves the ground and in the same game Davies gets a yellow for drop Ryan on his head in one of the worst tip tackles you'll ever see?

Ridiculous decisions again and again with Barnes and all in the same direction.

As I recall, Barnes asked for information from the assistant referee in that instance as he did not see it and it was the assistant referee that said it was a yellow card only. That was not Barnes' call.

Again, I feel that teams have to adjust to certain referee's as the consistency in refereeing is not there.

Amazing how his eye sight returned in time to give Ferris a yellow for a legitimate tackle.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Jeez, you guys are getting your excuses in really early

Well Scotland are unbeaten in Barnes reffed games v Ireland. You must surely be favorites?

Question on the point of ferris' injury. Is a player banned from leaving the field without permission of the ref?

Collapse2005 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Jeez, you guys are getting your excuses in really early

Well Scotland are unbeaten in Barnes reffed games v Ireland. You must surely be favorites?

Good 'un hahaha! You guys are probably gonna hammer us even if Toonie was the ref! Our only glimmer of hope is you will be bringing Ringrose in after a long lay off. Apart from that Ireland are clear faves.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Jeez, you guys are getting your excuses in really early

No Radge, I think we will probably have enough to win but not only will we need to overcome an excellent and dangerous Scottish side but the referee to do so,as Barnes history suggests he will ping Ireland for everything and award very little.

It's a pity we have Barnes as he will have too much influence on the game I feel.

That being said it won't help Scotland if the game is stop start, they'll want it as free flowing as possible and hit Ireland on the counter, whereas Ireland will want to keep it slower and smother Scotland.

Well rodders, I guess we will never see eye to eye on Barnes.

eirebilly wrote:Well rodders, I guess we will never see eye to eye on Barnes.

He'll have his good eye on Ireland and bad eye on Scotland

Barnes likes to set his stall on the penalty front early on in games, especially in rucks. I can see it being quite a stop-start first 20 minutes or so with a lot of penalties.

I think Scotland might benefit from not fully targeting the rucks early on in the game in defence in the hope that Ireland do and Barnes pings them a lot for it – getting it in his head that Ireland are the offenders so we can make the most of it later on in the game.

You do wonder how much international teams change their approach based on the ref!

Collapse2005 wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:So you think he is specifically biased against Ireland rodders?

Yes.

Disagree entirely rodders. Do Wales have a right to say that Jackson was biased against them last game as he did not allow them to compete at the breakdown?

Well that is for Wales to decide but we aren't talking about one game here, there is a pattern over many years of Barnes one sided refereeing against Ireland.

Remember Ferris yellow card for tackling Davies, where one foot leaves the ground and in the same game Davies gets a yellow for drop Ryan on his head in one of the worst tip tackles you'll ever see?

Ridiculous decisions again and again with Barnes and all in the same direction.

It was subsequently confirmed that that yellow Ferris got wasn't even a penalty however, it was a penalty to win the game and gifted the Welsh a victory in a game Bradley Davies should have got one of the most obvious red cards in a rugby match.

In the '09 match Barnes wouldn't let Ferris leave the pitch even though a bone was protruding from his hand.

Blunder after blunder over time Barnes has proven himself to be easily the worst ref going and definitely shows bias against Ireland IMO.

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/stephen-ferris-gives-more-detail-on-his-and-irelands-least-favourite-referee-323584

Holy sheet. This is my favourite part:

Stephen Ferris wrote:It's funny, I was yellow-carded four times in my career, and all four times it was by Wayne Barnes, so that tells you some story.

It certainly tells you the story that Mr Ferris never seemed to learn how to adapt this game play.

He seemed able to adapt to all other refs. Coincidence?

George Carlin wrote:
Holy sheet. This is my favourite part:

Stephen Ferris wrote:It's funny, I was yellow-carded four times in my career, and all four times it was by Wayne Barnes, so that tells you some story.

It certainly tells you the story that Mr Ferris never seemed to learn how to adapt this game play.

The story it tells me is that Ferris played to the laws of the game, whereas Barnes simply applied his own.

Whats not to like about Barnes?

TightHEAD wrote:Whats not to like about Barnes?

I think he's lovely. Any girl would love to bring him home to Mammy.

Well its good to know our friends across the irish sea don't like Barnes.  Makes me hopeful

Our computer model gives Ireland as strong favourites. This is largely because of Ireland's excellent record at the moment (10 games undefeated - an Irish record), at home (only 2 defeats in 26 games since 2013), and Scotland's poor record away from home. This is a purely stats based approach but generally has been quite accurate.





If you'd like the full whack then follow this shameless plug...

https://sports4cast.com/2018/03/05/2018-six-nations-week-4-ireland-v-scotland/

TightHEAD wrote:Whats not to like about Barnes?

"Okay....let's see if I can think of something else.......................... Nope...f**king Ireland is still there! Let's try counting sheep.... one, two, Ireland........... Damn!!!!!"

rugby4cast wrote:Our computer model gives Ireland as strong favourites. This is largely because of Ireland's excellent record at the moment (10 games undefeated - an Irish record), at home (only 2 defeats in 26 games since 2013), and Scotland's poor record away from home. This is a purely stats based approach but generally has been quite accurate.





If you'd like the full whack then follow this shameless plug...

https://sports4cast.com/2018/03/05/2018-six-nations-week-4-ireland-v-scotland/

Pshah. You can prove anything with facts, can't you?

Nope. But we like to try nevertheless!

Sent from Topic'it App

And before the last match, we hadn't beaten England in 10 years, and England had lost only 1 in 25. Nothing lasts forever.

Anglobraveheart wrote:And before the last match, we hadn't beaten England in 10 years, and England had lost only 1 in 25. Nothing lasts forever.

Correct. Ireland playing boring rugby must end sometime soon. The sumptuous stuff is just on the horizon!

Anglobraveheart wrote:And before the last match, we hadn't beaten England in 10 years, and England had lost only 1 in 25. Nothing lasts forever.

Thats good ti know as Ireland have never defeated Scotland when Wayne Barnes has been ref.

Lack of consistent midfield and midfield defensive communication is a big problem for Ireland in keeping their defensive structure. That has been rooted in the 12 and critically the 13 shirt. Only two players have really filled that role successfully – Payne and now Henshaw. Contrast the midfield pairings and presence of Payne/Henshaw in low or zero tries conceded with when they were absent. Obviously not all the tries conceded were out wide:

2016/17
W v NZ Chicago (3 conceded)
Henshaw, Payne, Trimble, Zebo, R Kearney
L v NZ Dublin (3)
Henshaw, Payne, Zebo, Trimble, R Kearney (Sexton, Henshaw and Stander all injured in first 22 minutes)
W v Australia (3)
Ringrose, Payne, Earls, Trimble, R Kearney (Payne, Trimble and Kearney all injured in first half)
2017 6N
L v Scotland (3)
Henshaw, Ringrose, Zebo, Earls, R Kearney (first time midfield pairing at test level – and were scalded)
W v Italy (0)
Henshaw, Ringrose, Zebo, Earls, R Kearney
W v France (0)
Henshaw, Ringrose, Zebo, Earls, R Kearney
L v Wales (3)
Henshaw, Ringrose, Zebo, Earls, Kearney
W v England )0)
Henshaw, Ringrose, Zebo, Earls, Payne

2017/18
W v South Africa (0)
Aki, Henshaw, Conway, Stockdale, R Kearney
W v Fiji (3)
McCloskey, Farrell, Conway, Sweetnam, D Kearney
W v Argentina (2)
Aki, Farrell, Byrne Stockdale, R Kearney
2018 6N
W v France (1)
Aki, Henshaw, Earls, Stockdale, R Kearney
W v Italy (3)
Aki, Henshaw, Earls, Stockdale, R Kearney (Henshaw injured in 10th minute)
W v Wales (3)
Aki, Farrell, Stockdale, Earls, Kearney

? v Scotland (??)
Aki, Ringrose, Stockdale, Earls, R Kearney

So just to be clear - some Ireland fans are alleging that there is a systematic bias by Wayne Barnes against the Ireland team and Irish players?

George Carlin wrote:So just to be clear - some Ireland fans are alleging that there is a systematic bias by Wayne Barnes against the Ireland team and Irish players?

em.............

I think a more accurate assessment is that one Irish fan in particular points out in stats our very unfortunate coincidental performance standards when reffed by a coach of said name above.

It's all just coincidence off course but no less frightening for Irish fans who worry that the curse of Breakdown Barnes might hit us in the ba.............  oh sorry, got carried away in me poetry there.....

George Carlin wrote:So just to be clear - some Ireland fans are alleging that there is a systematic bias by Wayne Barnes against the Ireland team and Irish players?

By my count it's 2.
Now I don't speak for all Ireland fans, but I'm happy to say neither I or my father or my three brothers thinks Barnes hates us, the general consensus is we try and play our normal breakdown style, which is what Barnes doesn't like, not us the Irish just how we approach the breakdown. And time after time we fail to adapt.

SecretFly wrote:

George Carlin wrote:So just to be clear - some Ireland fans are alleging that there is a systematic bias by Wayne Barnes against the Ireland team and Irish players?

em.............

I think a more accurate assessment is that one Irish fan in particular points out in stats our very unfortunate coincidental performance standards when reffed by a coach of said name above.

It's all just coincidence off course but no less frightening for Irish fans who worry that the curse of Breakdown Barnes might hit us in the ba.............  oh sorry, got carried away in me poetry there.....

No that's not accurate. At least two Ireland fans on here Rodders and I. Furthermore Stephen Ferris former Ireland players also believes there is some bias if you read between the lines in his article posted above along with other fans on other forums.

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

George Carlin wrote:So just to be clear - some Ireland fans are alleging that there is a systematic bias by Wayne Barnes against the Ireland team and Irish players?

em.............

I think a more accurate assessment is that one Irish fan in particular points out in stats our very unfortunate coincidental performance standards when reffed by a coach of said name above.

It's all just coincidence off course but no less frightening for Irish fans who worry that the curse of Breakdown Barnes might hit us in the ba.............  oh sorry, got carried away in me poetry there.....

No that's not accurate. At least two Ireland fans on here Rodders and I. Furthermore Stephen Ferris former Ireland players also believes there is some bias if you read between the lines in his article posted above along with other fans on other forums.

Correct.

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

George Carlin wrote:So just to be clear - some Ireland fans are alleging that there is a systematic bias by Wayne Barnes against the Ireland team and Irish players?

em.............

I think a more accurate assessment is that one Irish fan in particular points out in stats our very unfortunate coincidental performance standards when reffed by a coach of said name above.

It's all just coincidence off course but no less frightening for Irish fans who worry that the curse of Breakdown Barnes might hit us in the ba.............  oh sorry, got carried away in me poetry there.....

No that's not accurate. At least two Ireland fans on here Rodders and I. Furthermore Stephen Ferris former Ireland players also believes there is some bias if you read between the lines in his article posted above along with other fans on other forums.

Hmm.  I was trying to be diplomatic with George there.  But I think it's plain that I inferred there is always evidence, that you usually provide, that might lead any neutral observer to appreciate that Ireland and Barnes are a strange mix.
I think the record we have with him is notable.  Do I declare it as bias?  Not prepared to go that far myself.  

But it is very strange that we can never seem to 'adapt' to his reffing ways, even though Ireland are meticulous about studying the ways of individual coaches and should know that above all refs, Barnes is the one we should study most.  
Maybe now with Farrell on board we might finally be able to adapt to these very English interpretations.  Chasing after Wayne interpretations for years and still can't pin them down?  Not very Irish.. so quite peculiar.