6 Nations:Ireland v Scotland - An Craic Mór - 10 Mar 2018

First topic message reminder :

Forget the Tiddlywinks at Twickers, this one’s the proper test match with soaring Scotland taking on their Ivernian cousins.  

Ireland have it all to do on their home turf to keep their championship tilt going, and Scotland have the bit between their teeth to snatch it from them and head into the final round ready to rack up a cricket score against the hapless Italians to try reach top of the table.

Scotland started cold and lost heavily to Wales but now they’ve got their game together, they could be on a roll.  But as their coach has pointed out, their away record in the last decade has been dismal.  That’s the hurdle they have to overcome.  They have the players, the skills, and a successful game plan if they can beat Ireland at their own game at the breakdown.  

Ireland started without a few players like O’Brien, Ringrose, and then lost Furlong, Henderson and Henshaw.  All the replacements stood up - VdF, Leavy, Farrell, Porter, Ryan - and then a couple of them got injured.  But the timing looks good as Furlong, Henderson, and Ringrose are ready to re-enter the fray.  O’Brien could be back for the final round.  

Schmidt has some thinking to do on how he can outwit Townsend - attempting 60-70% possession with constant pick and goes isn’t going to cut it.  Will Sexton have his kicking boots back?   Will yet another midfield continue to weaken the defensive line?   On the other hand, will Russell turn from hero to zero if his looping passes fail to hit their target and Fall into the hands of Stockdale or Earls instead?

Both sides haven’t been shy about scoring, although they go about it in completely different ways.   Let’s see if they can keep it up.

Paddies

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 81 caps
14. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 65 caps
13. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 11 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 5 caps
11. Jacob Stockdale (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 7 caps
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 71 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 62 caps

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 76 caps
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 109 caps
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 21 caps
4. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 6 caps
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 56 caps
6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 45 caps
7. Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster) 7 caps
8. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 21 caps

Replacements
16. Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 59 caps
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 45 caps
18. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 5 caps
19. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 36 caps
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 18 caps
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 19 caps
22. Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 8 caps
23. Jordan Larmour (St Mary's College/Leinster) 1 cap

Lovely Scotsmen

Whiffy Tops
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors), Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh), Huw Jones Glasgow Warriors), Sean Maitland (Saracens), Peter Horne (Glasgow Warriors), Finn Russsell (Glasgow Warriors), Greig Laidlaw (Clermont Auvergne),
Beautiful Rumblers
Gordon Reid (London Irish), Stuart McInally (Edinburgh), Simon Berghan (Edinburgh), Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh), Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors), John Barclay (Scarlets, captain), Hamish Watson Edinburgh), Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors).
Extras:
Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors), Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors), Willem Nel (Edinburgh), Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors), David Denton (Worcester Warriors), Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors), Nick Grigg (Glasgow Warriors), Lee Jones (Glasgow Warriors).

George Carlin wrote:Just realised that nobody has beaten Ireland at home in this competition for 5 years.

Don't feel quite so bad now.

I feel terrible now. Anytime a record is mentioned, it don't take long for it to end....
We'd like our home record to last a little longer.

Anyone know when the last tme England lost at home was?

2015 RWC?

SecretFly wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Just realised that nobody has beaten Ireland at home in this competition for 5 years.

Don't feel quite so bad now.

I feel terrible now.  Anytime a record is mentioned, it don't take long for it to end....
We'd like our home record to last a little longer.

Records need to end some time!

It's this record that set Ireland and Scotland apart. I'm sure many Irish fans will say that Ireland are not playing dazzling rugby. I'd not say that Ireland have superstar players that are making the difference for them such as a Dan Carter, Jonah Lomu or a Jonny wilkinson. Ireland have a collection of very good players all playing very well as a unit.

Scotland are good team, but we need to play at the top of our game to win against top 4 opposition. Ireland are a better team and while anyone can argue who is playing better rugby, at the end of the day, Ireland are getting the results.

Good teams win when they are good
Great teams win even when they're having an off day

rodders wrote:2015 RWC?

Sorry I meant in the 6N Rodders?

2012 against Wales.

rodders wrote:2012 against Wales.

We have our work cut out.

tigertattie wrote: I'd not say that Ireland have superstar players that are making the difference for them such as a Dan Carter, Jonah Lomu or a Jonny wilkinson. Ireland have a collection of very good players all playing very well as a unit.

That's another strange-ish thing as regards Ireland.

Usually players become individual 'giants' - if they're going to become giants at all - during their International stints.

Ireland have become as you say, a place where players go to serve a pretty tightly run system.  They leave a lot of their individual instincts behind them at the door and give themselves to the strategy and patterns of the game plan.

It works relatively well as the system then is more important than the players used to effect it, which has the benefits of ensuring that the wheels don't come off when a few 'special' players drop out due to bad form or injury.  O'Brien was hardly missed this season.  We've had three change of centres, each of which picked up more praise than the previous incumbent when most observers felt we couldn't afford to do without Henshaw at all.

But I think we have individuals that prove more of their individual worth at Provincial level than they do at International actually.  That's when they seem to be given more licence to be the kinds of players their instincts drive them to be. At International, the game plan is master.

Collapse2005 wrote:

rodders wrote:2012 against Wales.

We have our work cut out.

"Records need to end sometime"

Joe Schmidt gave a good quote "History doesn't protect you from the future."

You look at BOD or POC. Legends of the game really. I'd not say any of the current crop of players could claim to be as good as either of these two. The players that Ireland do have are very good and the team is greater than the sum of its parts.

Where things have particularly worked out for Ireland is that the game plan is indeed master, but arguably your two best players are Murray and Sexton and these guys control the game plan. As a former forward, it pains me to say, but a team's 9 and 10 are the linch pin that dictates the outcome of games.

I'd use the same argument as to why England are struggling just now due to losing Youngs. Also Ford needs time and space on the ball and needs a big bullying pack to give him this. As they are getting mullered at the breakdown he's not getting the armchair ride so is struggling.

Scotland are struggling as we only play well when Finn Russell plays well and he's up and down at the moment.

Wales are shuffling about their 9/10 at the moment as they are basically rebuilding their team.

France, Ditto

If you put up a scale of where players perform from zero (the ability of Duncan Weir) to 100 (the ability of Dan Carter) then Finn Russell floats between 40 and 90 while Sexton floats between 70 and 85. When Finn is playing at his peak, I'd say he's got more ability that Sexton, but Sexton is far more consistent.

Ability will will you a man of the match medal. Consistency wins you tournaments

I'll let you choose which is more important

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

rodders wrote:2012 against Wales.

We have our work cut out.

"Records need to end sometime"

Joe Schmidt gave a good quote "History doesn't protect you from the future."

And yet when I offer that to my wife just once, I've got some sort of 'attitude problem'...

tigertattie wrote:You look at BOD or POC. Legends of the game really. I'd not say any of the current crop of players could claim to be as good as either of these two. The players that Ireland do have are very good and the team is greater than the sum of its parts.

Where things have particularly worked out for Ireland is that the game plan is indeed master, but arguably your two best players are Murray and Sexton and these guys control the game plan. As a former forward, it pains me to say, but a team's 9 and 10 are the linch pin that dictates the outcome of games.

I'd use the same argument as to why England are struggling just now due to losing Youngs. Also Ford needs time and space on the ball and needs a big bullying pack to give him this. As they are getting mullered at the breakdown he's not getting the armchair ride so is struggling.

Scotland are struggling as we only play well when Finn Russell plays well and he's up and down at the moment.

Wales are shuffling about their 9/10 at the moment as they are basically rebuilding their team.

France, Ditto

If you put up a scale of where players perform from zero (the ability of Duncan Weir) to 100 (the ability of Dan Carter) then Finn Russell floats between 40 and 90 while Sexton floats between 70 and 85. When Finn is playing at his peak, I'd say he's got more ability that Sexton, but Sexton is far more consistent.

Ability will will you a man of the match medal. Consistency wins you tournaments

I'll let you choose which is more important

I would agree with that, but add that it's even more focused than that. This applies to individual moments within games. Russell certainly can create a try from nothing better than sexton. But Sexton makes touch on penalties, organises the team, and provides the final pass against a defense under the cosh. Both result in tries, but with sexton's approach, it happens more often.

This is why Russell going to France is a disaster, he will be ruined out there. Poorly managed and overplayed, could be a real problem for Scotland.

Like I said, Ireland, because of their style, suppress the more individualistic instincts.  But even so, BOD and POC only became legends when they became legends.  It needs time.  You don't walk into a shirt (an oversized one in BOD's early years ) and simply become a legend.  Even in those early years, we knew he had something but it needed constant proving over the years and then it dawned on people in time.... yep, legend.

So with the new batch coming through.  There are more potential 'BODs' in and around Ireland International now than there has been at any time since ...well, BOD.  These younger crew have to be given time and the competitions to prove themselves in but anyone who has seen snippets from someone like Carbury or Ringrose or Larmour or Van der Flier in action know that we have players with the potential to light up any high end International contest of the future.  For now, the older generation are still chugging along though (effectively) and holding the spots for now.

I think russell going to France will be the making of him - he will not be as protected and will have to learn some discipline

I don't think it is a great move rugby wise for Russell.

The fast paced, attacking style of play at Glasgow suits him but I can see the slower, stop start nature of the Top 14 being a source of frustration.

It will be very interesting to see how Russell gets on in France, could go either way.

Apart from not claiming one high ball, I actually thought he had a very solid game against Ireland - we created a lot of chances, to which has crisp passing contributed.

I think it will be a disaster. There is no depth after Russell, so Racing forcing him to play more games, play half fit could ruin him and therefore Scotland. Now the SRU has no control over the game management of probably their most important player.

Scotland's strength is the teamwork within the back line to be able to play at such a high tempo, if your 10 can no longer make training camps, this will suffer.

....or alternately, the accepting environment which he currently enjoys at Glasgow has sheltered him from the realities of developing the pragmatic/controlling side of his game, resulting in debacles like we saw in Cardiff. The relentless pressure and scrutiny he will face in Paris could be the spur he needs to truly fulfil his outrageous talent.

Not saying it will happen mind, just that it could.

SecretFly wrote:Like I said, Ireland, because of their style, suppress the more individualistic instincts.  But even so, BOD and POC only became legends when they became legends.  It needs time.  You don't walk into a shirt (an oversized one in BOD's early years ) and simply become a legend.  Even in those early years, we knew he had something but it needed constant proving over the years and then it dawned on people in time.... yep, legend.

Ringrose will never achieve legendary status because he isn't selfish enough. For example, Stockdale's last try with a pass from Ringrose. BOD would never have passed that.

To achieve legendary status, you need to have a big personality. Someone like David Wallace deserves to be on the same legendary status of POC & BOD, but he was/is a much quieter individual.

All the new lads (bar Furlong maybe) maybe have the skill/talent, but they lack the big personality that made POC a legend.

Is that why Simon Zebo's is so legendary in Munster? Because he is a bit of a character and can spin a few records on the decks?

Sin é wrote:
All the new lads (bar Furlong maybe) maybe have the skill/talent, but they lack the big personality that made POC a legend.

That's cause Joe weeded out the tall poppies.

SecretFly wrote:Then what about today's game and the relieved wink from Faletau was enough to signify the Italian was fine?

It did seem more a shoulder neck stinger than a knock out with Healy.  As the guys in TV3 said, he looked in pain with the shoulder region and even that grimace of pain and alert discomfort in itself whilst standing had no wonky away-with-the-fairies look about it.

Looks like a shoulder to me Fly

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Like I said, Ireland, because of their style, suppress the more individualistic instincts.  But even so, BOD and POC only became legends when they became legends.  It needs time.  You don't walk into a shirt (an oversized one in BOD's early years ) and simply become a legend.  Even in those early years, we knew he had something but it needed constant proving over the years and then it dawned on people in time.... yep, legend.

Ringrose will never achieve legendary status because he isn't selfish enough. For example, Stockdale's last try with a pass from Ringrose. BOD would never have passed that.

BOD was generous his whole career. He always passed the ball..... mostly to himself.

eirebilly wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Then what about today's game and the relieved wink from Faletau was enough to signify the Italian was fine?

It did seem more a shoulder neck stinger than a knock out with Healy.  As the guys in TV3 said, he looked in pain with the shoulder region and even that grimace of pain and alert discomfort in itself whilst standing had no wonky away-with-the-fairies look about it.

Looks like a shoulder to me Fly

Got any movie footage there billy of Healy motioning to his shoulder neck area........... with clarity too - pain but clarity?

Anyway, ain't he back in the mix for the weekend? Don't you have to go through longer back-to-play procedures if it was a HI?

Sin é wrote:

All the new lads (bar Furlong maybe) maybe have the skill/talent, but they lack the big personality that made POC a legend.

POC is a legend coz he is more intelligent than Stephen Fry

Collapse2005 wrote:Is that why Simon Zebo's is so legendary in Munster? Because he is a bit of a character and can spin a few records on the decks?

He has a big personality and will be sadly missed in Munster. The kids absolutely adore him.

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Is that why Simon Zebo's is so legendary in Munster? Because he is a bit of a character and can spin a few records on the decks?

He has a big personality and will be sadly missed in Munster. The kids absolutely adore him.

They should have coughed up more Piggy Bank money to keep him then! It's a bit late for them to be crying into their cornflakes bowls now, they had their chance and blew it!

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
All the new lads (bar Furlong maybe) maybe have the skill/talent, but they lack the big personality that made POC a legend.

That's cause Joe weeded out the tall poppies.

Seriously, though. They are all fairly boring now. You'd miss players like DOC and Fla (though Fla was on fire on Twitter for the Munster Junior Cup)!

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