Grand Slam / No Grand Slam - Thoughts..

First topic message reminder :

Before a ball was kicked in the 6 Nations, I felt the England v Ireland game was going to be the decider, but didn't think it would be a Grand Slam decider. I had predicted Ireland would have lost to France and England would have lost to France to (Got one of them right). But I did think this final game would be for a Triple Crown and the title.

Now Ireland are already title winners, but chasing the Triple Crown and Grand Slam. It may be St Paddy's day, but lets not forget, its in Twickenham and England are hurting. Can the broken chariot be fixed with a win, which will see England rip back their 2nd place IRB ranking spot or will the chariot be written off against a green wall. If England lose without a losing BP, they even risk finishing 5th in this years tournament, a tournament that was talked about being their 3rd successive title, something no team has done in the 6 Nations.

Personally, I think England will see this as an opportunity of revenge. A chance to spoil Ireland's Grand Slam party, just as Ireland has done to them before.

So, is this going to be Ireland's 3rd Grand Slam or are England going to be party poopers... Thoughts.

ebop wrote:Does Ireland have an Irish rugby coaching academy? Where they train Irish rugby coaches

Yes, it's a place called New Zealand.

Back to the topic, I went for no grand slam. England are at home, it's a long time since the lost 3 in a row, there are a number of players who will want to prove their worth. Their wings and fullback are good at contesting the high ball threat, they have and 1 through 5 are arguably fine. Back row, half backs and centres don't look balanced or settled. But they could get at least partially resolved in a week.

Also, Irelands only away game so far was at the start of the campaign against a france with a new coach, no consistency, who were ripe for the picking yet we only managed to win with a last gasp drop goal.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Back to the topic, I went for no grand slam.  England are at home, it's a long time since the lost 3 in a row, there are a number of players who will want to prove their worth.  Their wings and fullback are good at contesting the high ball threat, they have and 1 through 5 are arguably fine.  Back row, half backs and centres don't look balanced or settled. But they could get at least partially resolved in a week.

Also, Irelands only away game so far was at the start of the campaign against a france with a new coach, no consistency, who were ripe for the picking yet we only managed to win with a last gasp drop goal.

This is a masterclass in cute hoorishness if ever I saw one.

rodders wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Back to the topic, I went for no grand slam.  England are at home, it's a long time since the lost 3 in a row, there are a number of players who will want to prove their worth.  Their wings and fullback are good at contesting the high ball threat, they have and 1 through 5 are arguably fine.  Back row, half backs and centres don't look balanced or settled. But they could get at least partially resolved in a week.

Also, Irelands only away game so far was at the start of the campaign against a france with a new coach, no consistency, who were ripe for the picking yet we only managed to win with a last gasp drop goal.

This is a masterclass in cute hoorishness if ever I saw one.

Boorishness as well.

Pot Hale wrote:

Cyril wrote:This is the first Irish win since 2009. 2014 and 2015 were shared with Ireland/England/Wales and Ireland/England respectively.

Ireland seem to be claiming moral victories again.

Points difference is used to determine the winner.  As you well know, TH.

On that point, it would be interesting to see how titles won on points scored difference would be decided under the current system i.e. bonus points.

Would Wales still win in '13; Ireland in '14 and '15?

miaow wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Cyril wrote:This is the first Irish win since 2009. 2014 and 2015 were shared with Ireland/England/Wales and Ireland/England respectively.

Ireland seem to be claiming moral victories again.

Points difference is used to determine the winner.  As you well know, TH.

On that point, it would be interesting to see how titles won on points scored difference would be decided under the current system i.e. bonus points.

Would Wales still win in '13; Ireland in '14 and  '15?

In 2015
Ireland would have got an LBP and a TBP
England 2 TBPs
Wales LBP and TBP

- Ireland Champs on points difference.


In 2014
Ireland would have got 1 LBP and 1 TBP
England would have got the same

- Ireland Champs on points difference.



In 2013

Wales would not have got any BPs
England would have got 1 TBP

- England would have been champs if the rules had been different and if the games had played out the same. As it is history books will always show that Wales manshamed England to pip them to the title.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Back to the topic, I went for no grand slam.  England are at home, it's a long time since the lost 3 in a row, there are a number of players who will want to prove their worth.  Their wings and fullback are good at contesting the high ball threat, they have and 1 through 5 are arguably fine.  Back row, half backs and centres don't look balanced or settled. But they could get at least partially resolved in a week.

Also, Irelands only away game so far was at the start of the campaign against a france with a new coach, no consistency, who were ripe for the picking yet we only managed to win with a last gasp drop goal.

Translation " it's not fair, you lot got lucky, were still the better team, the rankings mean nothing when we drop a place, the opposition are always up for playing us, your just a little island, know your place, my dad's bigger than yours. Whaaaa whaaaa whaaaa"

Think that's about right.

Went for Grand Slam because Paddy's Day is a day of Irish dreams so I can hope.

One thing I think is different with these Irish players is they don't go to give it a good try, they go to win. It doesn't mean they think they just show up but they believe they can win anywhere (except probably New Zealand). Ireland was all about passion and heart. The current Irish team is all about controlled aggression, so all the strenght but their heads are still working.

But it's still 50/50 on Saturday. But I hope there's a parade in HQ

In relation to how the North v South will go just a few points
1. These current players have been in a professional setup and surrounded by professional players and coaches their whole lives
2. Most of them have played and beaten SH teams at underage. (Think Italy improving at underage will feed through as well) This means less fear.
3. SH youngsters are playing with only current and future internationals and a lot of experienced and leadership is no longer there but up North
4. SH players use to be amazing in European teams and turned good into great or even ok in to good. Now they have little impact in improving teams example is Ulster or any French team

Interesting LondonTiger.

As I think we've seen since, it's impossible to backdate with any accuracy. Knowing Wales needed a TBP win would England have played differently from the off? Would Wales have stayed relentless in the final 10 minutes to get the 4th try?

Still slightly sceptical of the bonus point system. Ireland and England both beat Wales at home - both in very different conditions with Wales looking for a try to win the game as the clock went red. Was Ireland's victory 'worth' 5 points and England's 4? If the title as still on this weekend, and the Twickenham game proving decisive, that difference can be key - not just during the 80 minutes, but in the lead up and tactics as well. If England knew they 'needed' to deny Ireland or secure a TBP to win the title, rather than the win alone, it would change things.

You can boil it down to 'Ireland scored more than 4 tries, England didn't' in their games against Wales, but whilst bonus points even themselves out over a season of home and away games, those two games 'felt' like equal achievements for the opposition, in my opinion.

Really hard to quantify this point, and even harder to argue, but there's something that rankles.

On the topic at hand, I can see this being gruelling and close. If England go toe to toe with Ireland, and it's a game dictated by keeping hold of the ball, it'll be back and forth and home advantage will see England over the line by 1-2 points, in my opinion. They are two very similar sides in the way they play, England relying less on discipline and more on bulk, but Ireland obviously better drilled and have had more success this tournament. In all honesty, though, there's still very little between all four of the home nations - Scotland play it a lot looser than these two, and Wales fall somewhere in between in terms of styles, but it's not inconceivable that either side gets on a roll and ends up winning by 10-15 points.

That's why I'm going to hedge my bets and say England will squeak it by the most narrow of margins at home.

carpet baboon wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Back to the topic, I went for no grand slam.  England are at home, it's a long time since the lost 3 in a row, there are a number of players who will want to prove their worth.  Their wings and fullback are good at contesting the high ball threat, they have and 1 through 5 are arguably fine.  Back row, half backs and centres don't look balanced or settled. But they could get at least partially resolved in a week.

Also, Irelands only away game so far was at the start of the campaign against a france with a new coach, no consistency, who were ripe for the picking yet we only managed to win with a last gasp drop goal.

Translation " it's not fair, you lot got lucky, were still the better team, the rankings mean nothing when we drop a place, the opposition are always up for playing us, your just a little island, know your place, my dad's bigger than yours. Whaaaa whaaaa whaaaa"

Think that's about right.

Can't understand how bandwagon has caused so much upset? Boorish or Hoorish?!!

Must be missing something....

carpet baboon wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Back to the topic, I went for no grand slam.  England are at home, it's a long time since the lost 3 in a row, there are a number of players who will want to prove their worth.  Their wings and fullback are good at contesting the high ball threat, they have and 1 through 5 are arguably fine.  Back row, half backs and centres don't look balanced or settled. But they could get at least partially resolved in a week.

Also, Irelands only away game so far was at the start of the campaign against a france with a new coach, no consistency, who were ripe for the picking yet we only managed to win with a last gasp drop goal.

Translation " it's not fair, you lot got lucky, were still the better team, the rankings mean nothing when we drop a place, the opposition are always up for playing us, your just a little island, know your place, my dad's bigger than yours. Whaaaa whaaaa whaaaa"

Think that's about right.

I am starting to get confused but according to his profile bandwagon is Irish.

I've got to be honest the closer I get the more confident I am Ireland will do it.

I don't think England can turn things around in time and Ireland are too far ahead based on the evidence so far.

I think Ireland will dominate physically and be too disciplined, England will cause problems out wide and score tries but believe Ireland will get the points they need.

The most fundamental thing is the motivation though. I think Ireland desire to win a slam is more than England's desperation not to lose. This was apparent against France where there was no real backlash from the Scottish defeat.

I don't believe anything will be different on Saturday, England will start well but I think when it comes down to the crunch moments late on they will shell up under pressure and Ireland will finish stronger.

This is really a lose lose game for England, at best they can finish second which will present a a defeat and I think that will show on Saturday.

rodders wrote:I've got to be honest the closer I get the more confident I am Ireland will do it.

I don't think England can turn things around in time and Ireland are too far ahead based on the evidence so far.

I think Ireland will dominate physically and be too disciplined, England will cause problems out wide and score tries but believe Ireland will get the points they need.

The most fundamental thing is the motivation though. I think Ireland desire to win a slam is more than England's desperation not to lose. This was apparent against France where there was no real backlash from the Scottish defeat.

I don't believe anything will be different on Saturday, England will start well but I think when it comes down to the crunch moments late on they will shell up under pressure and Ireland will finish stronger.

This is really a lose lose game for England, at best they can finish second which will present a a defeat and I think that will show on Saturday.

I agree. Ireland will more than likely dominate possession and England will more than likely give away penalties. Their defense has been by and large good though so I think Sexton will need to kick well for us to win as I can see it being a low scoring game again.

rodders wrote:I've got to be honest the closer I get the more confident I am Ireland will do it.

I don't think England can turn things around in time and Ireland are too far ahead based on the evidence so far.

I think Ireland will dominate physically and be too disciplined, England will cause problems out wide and score tries but believe Ireland will get the points they need.

The most fundamental thing is the motivation though. I think Ireland desire to win a slam is more than England's desperation not to lose. This was apparent against France where there was no real backlash from the Scottish defeat.

I don't believe anything will be different on Saturday, England will start well but I think when it comes down to the crunch moments late on they will shell up under pressure and Ireland will finish stronger.

This is really a lose lose game for England, at best they can finish second which will present a a defeat and I think that will show on Saturday.

The closer the game gets the more confident I am that England will win.

I firmly believe there is little between the sides, and as with last year home advantage will be crucial. While running in tries for fun in the last three rounds, I cannot forget how poor the Irish attack was in Paris. Sure England have issues, and Ireland are certainly capable of securing a Grand Slam. I just do not believe they will.

Of course at least one of us will be wrong and will have to come back eating a little humble pie.

I agree that there isn't too much between the sides. England's breakdown is a real weakness though which Ireland should be able to exploit. Home advantage should even it up.

At this point its Irelands to lose based on form.

Those are certainly the two focal points as addressed by Collapse and Tiger.

Ireland will be trying to loosen out that tight English defence - and, yep, hoping to do a better job of it away than they did against France away.

England, for their part, will have to try to get parity at the breakdown - one of Ireland's real strategy strong-points.

But then, the ref of the day might have an influence there too.

But England come to the game with one of the tightest defences.  Ireland come with some of the toughest breakdown players.

Collapse2005 wrote:I agree that there isn't too much between the sides. England's breakdown is a real weakness though which Ireland should be able to exploit. Home advantage should even it up.

At this point its Irelands to lose based on form.

I actually think there is a quite a bit between them, in all the key area Ireland is stronger - tight 5, breakdown, half backs.

The one area where England are superior is their pace in the back 3 but I think Ireland will negate that.

Even in midfield the return of Ringrose will give Ireland an edge their too, last season he made a mug out of Joseph.

The only thing I really see in England's favor is the Twickenham factor but again I see this working in Ireland favor as their motivation to win at Twickenham will be an incentive whereas England have the fear of losing their proud home record and the indignity of losing 3 games on the bounce.

This will help England early on but ultimately will work against them I believe.

I see Ireland starting strong, England responding in the middle part of the game and then Ireland finishing the stronger. I just see Ireland being too well drilled and experienced for this English side to deal with.

This makes interesting reading:

England coach Eddie Jones has enlisted some unusual help ahead of Saturday's pivotal Six Nations finale against Ireland in the form of match assistant referee Marius van der Westhuizen.

In news that is sure to raise eyebrows in the Ireland camp, the South African took charge of England's training session at their Pennyhill Park base according to the London Times. It is reported that Ireland were unaware of his presence in Surrey.

It is not unusual for teams to enlist the help of international officials ahead of big Test matches. Irish referee John Lacey has been a regular attendee at Ireland’s sessions during this international window and held the whistle during Tuesday’s session at Carton House.

However, World Rugby's rules stipulate that a referee cannot assist a team he will referee during that international window or tournament, but there are no such regulations governing assistant referees.

Van der Westhuizen was part of the three man team who took charge of England's defeat against France last weekend, along with referee Jaco Peyper and Angus Gardner.

The trio will take charge of Saturday's clash with Australian Gardner swapping places with Peyper to taking charge at Twickenham having held a flag last weekend in Paris.

The stakes are high for both sides, with Ireland needing a win to secure a third Grand Slamin their history and England looking to get back to winning ways after two defeats on the road - their first back-to-back losses of Jones' era.

England’s discipline has been a major concern in the tournament to date, with Jones’ side conceding 15 penalties at the Stade de France.

The breakdown has been a particular area of concern for the faltering English side, who were penalised nine times at the ruck area.

According to the Times, World Rugby have no concerns about England gaining a competitive advantage from the presence of the assistant referee at their session.

The IRFU had no comment on the appearance of van der Westhuizen at England's training when contacted by independent.ie. World Rugby and Six Nations have been contacted for comment.

(https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/eyebrows-raised-as-saturdays-assistant-referee-van-der-westhuizen-joins-england-training-36703856.html)

That's definitely dodgy. Ref involved in matches shouldn't attend training camps. Clearly a conflict of interest.

I don't think it will make much difference though.

rodders wrote:I've got to be honest the closer I get the more confident I am Ireland will do it.

Weirdly - I'm more confident about this game than the France or Wales game.

Ireland are a different animal now - I have never seen them so consistently ruthless or doggedly determined to win.

I think if they can start strongly against England, England might just get the jips.

Definitely dodgy - England to get all the LOs. However this advantage will be negated when LCD gets on.

Anyhoo, England will win at HQ, home advantage to take it - Ireland aren't that strong.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Definitely dodgy - England to get all the LOs. However this advantage will be negated when LCD gets on.

Anyhoo, England will win at HQ, home advantage to take it - Ireland aren't that strong.

Probably what Irish fans would have said about England before the 6Ns started (After all Rodders did predict Italy would beat us ), but I do not believe Ireland are as strong as their fans believe. I will happily apologise should I be wrong come Saturday.

Barney McGrew wrote: Ireland aren't that strong.

Luckily they don't have to be to beat England!

Stewie15 wrote:This makes interesting reading:

England coach Eddie Jones has enlisted some unusual help ahead of Saturday's pivotal Six Nations finale against Ireland in the form of match assistant referee Marius van der Westhuizen.

If true then this is desperation stuff from Jones.

LondonTiger wrote:Probably what Irish fans would have said about England before the 6Ns started, but I do not believe Ireland are as strong as their fans believe. I will happily apologise should I be wrong come Saturday.

England may well win.

However, as a normal pessimist and someone who never wants to jinx things, for once I am feeling quietly (or not so quietly now i am writing on a public forum) confident.

Joe has got this team micro-managed to point where they are almost machine like in their efficiency. But yet they have smart leaders all through the team that can react and adapt to changing circumstances; Sexton, Murray, Best POM to name a few.

I think Eddie wants England to think for themselves more and doesn't micro-manage to the same degree, yet he doesn't have as many player-leaders in his team as Ireland. Beyond Owen Farrell, who pulls the team up to the next level?

I also think having the Championship in the bag is great for Ireland as it takes away the stress of possibly coming away with nothing. They can throw the kitchen sink at a Grand Slam.

If England win I don't think it will be because Ireland bottle it

LondonTiger wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Back to the topic, I went for no grand slam.  England are at home, it's a long time since the lost 3 in a row, there are a number of players who will want to prove their worth.  Their wings and fullback are good at contesting the high ball threat, they have and 1 through 5 are arguably fine.  Back row, half backs and centres don't look balanced or settled. But they could get at least partially resolved in a week.

Also, Irelands only away game so far was at the start of the campaign against a france with a new coach, no consistency, who were ripe for the picking yet we only managed to win with a last gasp drop goal.

Translation " it's not fair, you lot got lucky, were still the better team, the rankings mean nothing when we drop a place, the opposition are always up for playing us, your just a little island, know your place, my dad's bigger than yours. Whaaaa whaaaa whaaaa"

Think that's about right.

I am starting to get confused but according to his profile bandwagon is Irish.

I think that they must have cast him out or something! Pretty sure he is/was Irish!

Not sure was he did though.

stub wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Back to the topic, I went for no grand slam.  England are at home, it's a long time since the lost 3 in a row, there are a number of players who will want to prove their worth.  Their wings and fullback are good at contesting the high ball threat, they have and 1 through 5 are arguably fine.  Back row, half backs and centres don't look balanced or settled. But they could get at least partially resolved in a week.

Also, Irelands only away game so far was at the start of the campaign against a france with a new coach, no consistency, who were ripe for the picking yet we only managed to win with a last gasp drop goal.

Translation " it's not fair, you lot got lucky, were still the better team, the rankings mean nothing when we drop a place, the opposition are always up for playing us, your just a little island, know your place, my dad's bigger than yours. Whaaaa whaaaa whaaaa"

Think that's about right.

I am starting to get confused but according to his profile bandwagon is Irish.

I think that they must have cast him out or something! Pretty sure he is/was Irish!

Not sure was he did though.

Well I guess that baboon assumed he was English and therefore felt he was being mealy mouthed about Ireland, hence his "translation"

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Definitely dodgy - England to get all the LOs. However this advantage will be negated when LCD gets on.

Anyhoo, England will win at HQ, home advantage to take it - Ireland aren't that strong.

England might win...home advantage and all - crowd noise boosting them at the right moments.

But Ireland are strong.  And I've always been cautious of saying so about Ireland.  

A few of their opponents this year have done the post-game analysis and have come up with the idea that but for a few things going against them (their own little errors) the result of the games might have/would have been different.

I observe it differently.  I say Ireland went through this competition with a glaring and repeating weak point that allowed sides the gimme space to work some nice tries through.  I salute the tries and their use of the very visible hole down our flanks.  But if we do an 'If' with Ireland and say 'if' that hole had not been present, and 'if' Ireland hadn't squandered some of their own chances at increasing their points, then Ireland looked totally dominant, comfortably superior in just about all other facets of the game - including that old fabled super-fitness stuff.
Scotland charged around through a 2nd quarter period and perhaps tested this Ireland side's resilience and fitness like no other for quite a number of years.  And yet I think their heart sank somewhat when they realised Ireland weren't cracking or crumbling under the strain.  They were being worked extremely hard but they didn't implode.  Super-fitness to match that lauded by other sides.

So, having said all that - England are a very good side still, have some rapid fire players that will hurt you in an instant, they're at home, they are wounded.  They could win by 10 if in the mood and if they catch Ireland out on nerves or lack of readiness to meet the challenge.

But Ireland are that strong.  They really are.  I'm only trying to work out now whether the Irish boys will be delighted at the end or gloomy if they lose.  I'd like to see them happy and delirah!  They did a lot of good things this season.  Plenty to work on but they did some good stuff and should allow themselves true happiness regardless if they win or lose.

carpet is just excited at the prospects. Bandwagon is being reticent to join in! We'll kick some enthusiasm into him yet!

Yes, I think that you're probably right LondonTiger.

I just hope that bandwagon has learnt his lesson!!

Two of England's worst players Lawes and Hughes have been ruled out. That's probably not great news for Ireland.

Damn it!!! Can't Jones read? I distinctly put down Farrell and Robshaw on the false medical report.

Collapse2005 wrote:Two of England's worst players Lawes and Hughes have been ruled out. That's probably not great news for Ireland.

TBF they were ruled out on Monday. Now they are out for the rest of the season I believe.

Stewie15 wrote:This makes interesting reading:

England coach Eddie Jones has enlisted some unusual help ahead of Saturday's pivotal Six Nations finale against Ireland in the form of match assistant referee Marius van der Westhuizen.

In news that is sure to raise eyebrows in the Ireland camp, the South African took charge of England's training session at their Pennyhill Park base according to the London Times. It is reported that Ireland were unaware of his presence in Surrey.

It is not unusual for teams to enlist the help of international officials ahead of big Test matches. Irish referee John Lacey has been a regular attendee at Ireland’s sessions during this international window and held the whistle during Tuesday’s session at Carton House.

However, World Rugby's rules stipulate that a referee cannot assist a team he will referee during that international window or tournament, but there are no such regulations governing assistant referees.

Van der Westhuizen was part of the three man team who took charge of England's defeat against France last weekend, along with referee Jaco Peyper and Angus Gardner.

The trio will take charge of Saturday's clash with Australian Gardner swapping places with Peyper to taking charge at Twickenham having held a flag last weekend in Paris.

The stakes are high for both sides, with Ireland needing a win to secure a third Grand Slamin their history and England looking to get back to winning ways after two defeats on the road - their first back-to-back losses of Jones' era.

England’s discipline has been a major concern in the tournament to date, with Jones’ side conceding 15 penalties at the Stade de France.

The breakdown has been a particular area of concern for the faltering English side, who were penalised nine times at the ruck area.

According to the Times, World Rugby have no concerns about England gaining a competitive advantage from the presence of the assistant referee at their session.

The IRFU had no comment on the appearance of van der Westhuizen at England's training when contacted by independent.ie. World Rugby and Six Nations have been contacted for comment.

(https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/eyebrows-raised-as-saturdays-assistant-referee-van-der-westhuizen-joins-england-training-36703856.html)

Well that really pushes the envelope. It may be ok by the letter of the law, but its definetly a ruling the IRB should look at and change. I'm sure if they had thought the AR would be called in for training sessions pre game they would have spelt it out that ALL officials cannot be consutled prior to the game they officiate in. What if the AR has to take charge...

Wonder if they had the TMO in for a few "sessions" prior to the England/Wales game. Would explain a decision or two

England are struggling at the breakdown, an area where Ireland are excelling.

I can’t see England beating a brilliant Ireland team

I think England will prevail in a tight, dirty sort of match to restore a bit of pride, but not a statisfing amount. Almost equally, I would not be surprised to see the Irish juggernaut continue to sweep all aside for a deserved grand slam.

England should have enough to win if they play to their strengths and with passion and pride and do not get distracted by the various sideshows that will inevitably present themselves. They will have to be at their very best to derail this talented Irish side.

No9 wrote:

Stewie15 wrote:This makes interesting reading:

England coach Eddie Jones has enlisted some unusual help ahead of Saturday's pivotal Six Nations finale against Ireland in the form of match assistant referee Marius van der Westhuizen.

In news that is sure to raise eyebrows in the Ireland camp, the South African took charge of England's training session at their Pennyhill Park base according to the London Times. It is reported that Ireland were unaware of his presence in Surrey.

It is not unusual for teams to enlist the help of international officials ahead of big Test matches. Irish referee John Lacey has been a regular attendee at Ireland’s sessions during this international window and held the whistle during Tuesday’s session at Carton House.

However, World Rugby's rules stipulate that a referee cannot assist a team he will referee during that international window or tournament, but there are no such regulations governing assistant referees.

Van der Westhuizen was part of the three man team who took charge of England's defeat against France last weekend, along with referee Jaco Peyper and Angus Gardner.

The trio will take charge of Saturday's clash with Australian Gardner swapping places with Peyper to taking charge at Twickenham having held a flag last weekend in Paris.

The stakes are high for both sides, with Ireland needing a win to secure a third Grand Slamin their history and England looking to get back to winning ways after two defeats on the road - their first back-to-back losses of Jones' era.

England’s discipline has been a major concern in the tournament to date, with Jones’ side conceding 15 penalties at the Stade de France.

The breakdown has been a particular area of concern for the faltering English side, who were penalised nine times at the ruck area.

According to the Times, World Rugby have no concerns about England gaining a competitive advantage from the presence of the assistant referee at their session.

The IRFU had no comment on the appearance of van der Westhuizen at England's training when contacted by independent.ie. World Rugby and Six Nations have been contacted for comment.

(https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/eyebrows-raised-as-saturdays-assistant-referee-van-der-westhuizen-joins-england-training-36703856.html)

Well that really pushes the envelope. It may be ok by the letter of the law, but its definetly a ruling the IRB should look at and change. I'm sure if they had thought the AR would be called in for training sessions pre game they would have spelt it out that ALL officials cannot be consutled prior to the game they officiate in. What if the AR has to take charge...

Wonder if they had the TMO in for a few "sessions" prior to the England/Wales game. Would explain a decision or two

The assistant referee has been stood down for the game. Common sense has prevailed.

According to the WR statement, they sent him in!!!

Poor Nigel.

I think he said somewhere that as he had no game to officiate at over the weekend he'd be able to be home for a rare Welsh game in Cardiff. I think that's what he said roughly.

So now he's back on full duty in London. Some guys never get a break!

Is Nigel Owens a touch judge or the actual referee for the game?

Touch judge replacement just.... I think.

Certainly not ref. The ref for the day wasn't compromised and that would be a bit of an International incident if he was removed too.

So England “bend” the rules and still cant finish higher than 5th...

Congratulations Ireland a well deserved Grand Slam.