Joe Schmidt

best coach in world rugby

Discuss!

Yes

I have often been one of his biggest critics but fair feics to him for getting Ireland a 6N GS whilst also playing some very good rugby along the way.

I would agree. Three 6N titles in five years including a grand slam and Ireland's first win over NZ, he has also consistently beaten other southern hemisphere competition. But perhaps his greatest accolade is the incredible level of depth he has built within Irish rugby during his tenure. Schmidt's legacy will go beyond the trophies he has won, he has put in place a structure that will be lasting That, along with the fact that he has made us absolutely cut throat in our view of the reputation of other teams.

After the World Cup, depending on the situation with Hansen, I'd say he is looking good for the All Blacks job.

alive555 wrote:best coach in world rugby

Discuss!

So joe for the next Lions coach then...I mean if he is the best in the world.

but but but he has never won a grand slam. Lol.

By far Irelands greatest ever coach.

I don't care if he's the best or not.  He's ours (for now ).  We owe him much for dragging us kicking and screaming into a greater appreciation of his methodical/clinic ways, and of his patient long term views on what he wants of Irish players and Why!.  
And it showed today.  How settled and contained in their own version of rugby 'lethargy' did those Irish players look today in that first half?  They trusted so much each other and their gameplan that they seemed to control the pace of the game effortlessly - in England against a very dangerous England side.

Like I said, I don't care if he's considered the best, for now, he's ours - just like the players.  There's not a one of them I'd trade for any of the very good players on any other side.  It's not about being best, it's about the unity of a team of brothers.  That closeness is so evident.  What a bunch of men... and I included all of them, coaches and players.

We may not always win (Eddie Jones will vouch for that now) but there is something now different about Ireland and I don't think it'll be going back in a box any time soon.  They have confidence and belief in their ability and they don't need rage or fury to prove it.  They don't pick up many of the individual plaudits when journalists and fans think of best individual players in Europe but I think even in that, Europe will have to recalculate their evaluation of individual players.  Rugby is a hard game and the best players work damn hard.  Irish players work damn hard in a damn hard game.

Thank you Joe Schmidt and thanks to the players.  Wonderful day.

majesticimperialman wrote:

alive555 wrote:best coach in world rugby

Discuss!

So joe for the next Lions coach then...I mean if he is the best in the world.

If he's the best in the world he's too busy. He has a side. It's called Ireland. Maybe Hansen could take the Lions job next time if he isn't busy

majesticimperialman wrote:

alive555 wrote:best coach in world rugby

Discuss!

So joe for the next Lions coach then...I mean if he is the best in the world.

The Lions would be pointless for Schmidt as he is a coach rather than a politician. OTOH if he had already left Ireland and was offered a couple of million then why not prostitute himself?

It's not about being best, it's about the unity of a team of brothers. That closeness is so evident. What a bunch of men... and I included all of them, coaches and players.

Indeed - thats what won Ireland the slam - playing as a team and doing so calmly

Artful_Dodger wrote:I would agree.  Three 6N titles in five years including a grand slam and Ireland's first win over NZ, he has also consistently beaten other southern hemisphere competition.  But perhaps his greatest accolade is the incredible level of depth he has built within Irish rugby during his tenure.  Schmidt's legacy will go beyond the trophies he has won, he has put in place a structure that will be lasting  That, along with the fact that he has made us absolutely cut throat in our view of the reputation of other teams.

After the World Cup, depending on the situation with Hansen, I'd say he is looking good for the All Blacks job.

There is a lot to be said about this point. Although I do not think he can claim any credit for the development of players from Munster, Ulster and Connacht. He certainly did a very good job at Leinster and it is clear to see now when you look at the production line of players coming from Leinster. I do believe he has brought a development culture into Irish rugby which is up there with the best.

As to the original point, best coach in the world? I am not so sure of that, I think it is very difficult to make that claim for any coach to be honest. Credit where it is due (and I have been a major critic of his) he has done an excellent job and brought Ireland forward better than I thought he could have done.

Not sure if he’s even overtaken Gatland yet. He would need to win a few Lions tours .

Oh Christ.... this Lions virus never dies no matter what the docs throw at it!!!!

Please go away Big Pussies until your time comes around again, you just know you're gate crashing parties you're not invited to.

There is no doubt he is the best coach Ireland have ever had, surely the begrudgers can admit to that.

This Grand Slam has certainly cemented him as Irelands top coach but Ireland have seriously good players and an excellent professional rugby set up. I wouldnt neccessarily buy into the idea that Schmidt is working miracles anymore than Eddie Jones was working miracles in the previous 2 years.

Joe is a good coach, the best Ireland have had.

But the best coach in the "WORLD"?

Don't know. Maybe it is just down tooooo the luck of the Irish.

eirebilly wrote:

There is a lot to be said about this point. Although I do not think he can claim any credit for the development of players from Munster, Ulster and Connacht. He certainly did a very good job at Leinster and it is clear to see now when you look at the production line of players coming from Leinster. I do believe he has brought a development culture into Irish rugby which is up there with the best.

As to the original point, best coach in the world? I am not so sure of that, I think it is very difficult to make that claim for any coach to be honest. Credit where it is due (and I have been a major critic of his) he has done an excellent job and brought Ireland forward better than I thought he could have done.

He has played a huge part in player development from all provinces. Its well documented that he monitors all prospects and gives them work ons and goals. He also includes them in camps and calls them personally.

All that before they are even the Ireland squad.

Look lads, I suggest nobody even thinks about us. We're not worth it and neither is Joe. The players are only a bunch of hoofers, muckers, chancers and farmer boys. They don't threaten nobody and only got a lucky streak.

Wales is the new team to be scared of. France are coming back to the boil. Scotland are the Brazil of Rugby Union. Italy are getting there......
Australia are going to be playing with sunny smiles again soon. South Africa are going to knock the bejaysus out of all of us again very soon and England are still the genuine Number 2 side in the world.

Leave us alone Don't think about us. We're not here.

To be honest, I don’t think you’re far from the truth, Fly. Enjoy your moment though

Cyril wrote:To be honest, I don’t think you’re far from the truth, Fly. Enjoy your moment though

5th Lol.

Two accounts and no ban yet?

It appears this site is happy with sock puppet conversations. It fits with the whole World Rugby corruption and reffing scandals. Hopefully it doesn’t extend to getting your boys out of trouble.

mikey_dragon wrote:Not sure if he’s even overtaken Gatland yet. He would need to win a few Lions tours .

The NZ press had annointed Joe next AB coach about 20 minutes after the game yesterday.

Cyril wrote:Two accounts and no ban yet?

Ban for what? I have never once pretended the two accounts werent both mine. Sounds like you are in the mood for a massive whinge

Cyril wrote:It appears this site is happy with sock puppet conversations. It fits with the whole World Rugby corruption and reffing scandals. Hopefully it doesn’t extend to getting your boys out of trouble.

You have clearly made your mind up who is guilty and or innocent.

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Not sure if he’s even overtaken Gatland yet. He would need to win a few Lions tours .

The NZ press had annointed Joe next AB coach about 20 minutes after the game yesterday.

You had us until ‘NZ press.’ Those chumps are almost as bad as the chumps that just finished 5th in the 6 Nations .

Joe couldn't teach nothing to the New Zealanders so he'd get bored soon and they'd ignore him anyway:  "Ruck resourcing???  Us backs?  - you're crazy, mate?".

The coach of New Zealand is the biggest skit and reasonably well paid retirement pension on the planet.  If anybody seriously thinks that Hansen coaches that team on his own and that it's all coming from his bright mind, then I gotta say, naivety is being had big time by the big marketing ruse.

New Zealand rugby is a corporation, run by an entire phalanx of multiple legs and arms and brains stretching through the whole nation.  Hansen is the figurehead that does the speeches, the honorary President.

I think an individualist coach, like Schmidt is; a stubborn coach, like Schmidt certainly is, I don't think they'd enjoy being with New Zealand.  The sense of control and autonomy is something you have to pretend you have but I don't think you have much.

So in short,  St Joe, you gotta home here with people that want you.  Don't be minding them other foreign types that are trying to remind you that you're one of them.  They're lying!  We produced you.  We own you.  We got you locked in the six by six cell whenever you're not allowed out to coach, we have burned your passport, we've cut your phoneline, we hacked your computer.
Resistance is futile.  You're staying put for the next 20 years.

Gatland’s win record with Ireland was 47% from 1998-2001. He beat Wales, Argentina (although lost to them in Lens), and France in 2000 and 2001, and finished joint top with England in the 6N ( lost on PD) and nearly won against New Zealand in November losing 29-40.

Eddie O’Sullivan’s record was 64% with Ireland getting to 3rd in rankings in 2003 and 2006.

Declan Kidney won a Grand Slam and a Six Nations.  Was WR coach of year in 2009 and then it all went south. Finished W28 L23 D3 - 52%.

Joe Schmidt has three Six Nations inc a Grand Slam, beat New Zealand 40-29, SA away for first time, and a new team consecutive win record of 12. Since his start on 9 Nov 2013 he’s coached 55 W40 L14 D1 with a 73% success to date with win records of:
New Zealand 33% 1/3
Wales 43% 3.5/7
England 50% 3/6
SA 60% 3/5
Australia 67% 2/3
Argentina 75% 3/4
France 83% 5/6
Scotland 83% 5/6

Since beginning of 2016/17 season, Ireland have played 20 test matches.

Ireland P20 W17 L3 - 85%
N Zealand P18 W14 L3 D1 - 80.6%
England P19 W15 L4 -79%
Scotland P19 W12 L7 - 63%
Wales P20 W12 L8 - 60%

He’s doing okay so far I think.  Australia tour will be a real mettle tester.  SA tour got away from him, needs to win this one 2-1.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

There is a lot to be said about this point. Although I do not think he can claim any credit for the development of players from Munster, Ulster and Connacht. He certainly did a very good job at Leinster and it is clear to see now when you look at the production line of players coming from Leinster. I do believe he has brought a development culture into Irish rugby which is up there with the best.

As to the original point, best coach in the world? I am not so sure of that, I think it is very difficult to make that claim for any coach to be honest. Credit where it is due (and I have been a major critic of his) he has done an excellent job and brought Ireland forward better than I thought he could have done.

He has played a huge part in player development from all provinces. Its well documented that he monitors all prospects and gives them work ons and goals. He also includes them in camps and calls them personally.

All that before they are even the Ireland squad.

Schmidt has had nothing to do with the development of players at provinces where he has not been involved in, Leinster is the only province where he can and has had an influence (is working very well and Leinster are producing players left right and centre). That he has gotten players from other provinces involved in the Irish set up is brilliant but he is not responsible for their initial development.

A question of semantics - was Joe involved in Leinster schools (or even mini rugby player development? If not does that count as their 'initial' development?

His remit is to develop Test players and he has done that by involving so many players from all the provinces where he has already played 76 players and involved others in the training camps.
Even experienced players have their personal development programmes to be monitored against, and those are for all players. Schmidt's programme has undoubtedly provided the depth to cover injuries and minimise the attraction for players to move overseas.

Best coach ever to coach any sport in the history of the world. Although in fairness there are limited records pre late 19th century.

In all fairness, at the end of the day and it's a game of two halves..... Alexander the Great probably was a better coach though. No team ever beat him and he played against a lot of tough ones.
World Class coach.

Yeah but how many heinos did he win?

How can you tell? There are so many different parts of the job that its so difficult to compare. One thing that is clear is tho that his team looked the best prepared and the most cohesive which is a sign he is very good.

He seemed to get the tactics right as well. Little things like against england a lot of the time especially second half they didn't attack the breakdown much - but England still were putting 3 players into the rucks to secure ball - this then giving Ireland more players in the defensive line. Very clever I thought. England reacted to the Irish brekdowndomination by putting more players in, Ireland then reacted by stopping contesting and thus having more in the defensive line. I thought this was a large part of Irelands stopping england scoring.

How can you compare him tho with someone like Cotter? He took an abject scotland team who looked beaten before they started and turned them into a competative team. He is also the highest paid club coach in the world.

eirebilly wrote:

Schmidt has had nothing to do with the development of players at provinces where he has not been involved in, Leinster is the only province where he can and has had an influence (is working very well and Leinster are producing players left right and centre). That he has gotten players from other provinces involved in the Irish set up is brilliant but he is not responsible for their initial development.

He clearly does have a huge influence on players. Chris Farrell confirmed that he was even in regular contact with Schmidt when he was in France with specific work ons.

So he definitely does have influence on players while at their province and I think there is little doubt that players that make it into Ireland squads benefit quite significantly from Schmidts coaching.

eirebilly wrote:

Schmidt has had nothing to do with the development of players at provinces where he has not been involved in, Leinster is the only province where he can and has had an influence (is working very well and Leinster are producing players left right and centre). That he has gotten players from other provinces involved in the Irish set up is brilliant but he is not responsible for their initial development.

He's not responsible.  Neither should he be.  Do other people get paid to do things in Irish rugby?  Let them carry their own can I suppose.

But billy,  if you're suggesting he hasn't talked with, and discussed, and detailed the kind of player he needs coming through, and hasn't discussed some of those off-the-radar young players, suggesting avenues of improvement to their day-today overseers, then you really haven't learned much about him from the myriad of involved rugby people now who have talked about him and his meticulous no-stone-unturned approach to his overall job.

He's there.  He's not alone no more than he's alone as coach with the Irish set up.  But he's certainly the driver, the pusher and the pursuer of a brand of conveyor belt excellence that hasn't ever been our strongest interest area in Irish rugby.  

Only a few short years ago - and I remember it so it's not me guessing - people/fans/press, even I remember some 606ers, suggesting that when POC and BOD and one or two others were done, that would be us done too for five to six to even 10 years, because those special players 'don't grow on trees', Ireland aren't lucky enough to be able to produce enough of them and lightening doesn't hit the same spot twice too often (actually real lightening hits the same spot many many times in scientific terms )

BUT........... that was the fairytale that was being spun when those boys were retiring or close to retirement.  And I firmly believe that had not Joe Schmidt been around with his completely different philosophy, we'd be here today thinking 3rd or 4th was a good enough result in this year's 6N, considering the kind of natural talent we have right now that is good but not nearly good enough to be competing for GSs.  

It's Schmidt's psychology that good things don't have to wait that has sprinkled through the minds of players young and old.  They trust him to give them titles if they respond to his ideas - and he backs up the deal by helping them get to a title with only young sapling rookies leading the way.

TJ wrote:

How can you compare him tho with someone like Cotter?  He took an abject scotland team who looked beaten before they started and turned them into a competative team.  He is also the highest paid club coach in the world.

Em............... Ireland International were in 9th and totally broken in spirit, confidence and lost in terms of effective gameplans when Joe Schmidt turned up TJ.  So we weren't far off the standard, or indeed might have been slap bang in the same territory as Scotland were before Cotter arrived.
People have short memories for the histories of other International sides.

But you're right - 'BEST'?

Like I said at the start - I truly don't care how the world sees Schmidt.  Other Nations can believe they have a better one because of A+B reasons.  But all I know is that right now and for the foreseeable future, even being hit with losses (they'll inevitably come), I don't want any of the other good coaches out there - I just want him.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Schmidt has had nothing to do with the development of players at provinces where he has not been involved in, Leinster is the only province where he can and has had an influence (is working very well and Leinster are producing players left right and centre). That he has gotten players from other provinces involved in the Irish set up is brilliant but he is not responsible for their initial development.

He clearly does have a huge influence on players. Chris Farrell confirmed that he was even in regular contact with Schmidt when he was in France with specific work ons.

So he definitely does have influence on players while at their province and I think there is little doubt that players that make it into Ireland squads benefit quite significantly from Schmidts coaching.

That he waited 3 years to use that (modified) dummy wrap around around shows what Genius this guys is. It was a work of art.

The players deserve a huge amount of credit but I'd back Joe to take Italy to the GS, it just takes, even the best players a few years to catch up to the standards he sets.

At Leinster he was able to have a more immediate impact as he had daily access to the players but now Ireland are seeing the fruits of the hard work come through.

It's not a one man show for sure but he is the chief architect, no doubt about it, it amazes me he still has the doubters.

rodders wrote:  

At Leinster he was able to have a more immediate impact as he had daily access to the players but now Ireland are seeing the fruits of the hard work come through.

Boom!

There's the rub now.

That's exactly the sly thoughts going around in my head.  If you treat Ireland like a club in slow motion - limited games, limited time to coach them; all International sides are basically club sides in slow motion.  Sometimes individual coaches don't get long enough in the job to prove it.  

In a sense that's why New Zealand got to the top and stayed there.  They're a club side that have achieved a stability between stalwart, experienced players of class added to all the time in sequence by International rookies of similar ability and class.  

The only thing young AB players need coming in to the side that they don't yet have is experience - but they have the systems drilled into their heads long before they appear, they know what's expected of them, they don't last too long if they can't achieve the standards but they have the skills and ability there ready before they get in.  

That's because the AB are a perfectly oiled club side - like Leinster is a perfectly oiled club side in terms of a smooth process between young and old.  Rotation, rotation, experience gained by rotation, rotation again and all of a sudden, for the truly big games, the old head boys are there to keep the ship straight but have gotten their bits of rest and recuperation through the season because the rotation and rookies were trusted.

So Joe worked quicker to create his rotation ideals with Leinster for the very obvious reasons rodders outlined.  But here we go, five years in - what are we seeing?  Young pups sliding into the side and showing the maturity of old hands, being trusted with big jobs in big games, much more aggression and attacking sensibility beginning to come into the side - based on that trust of younger players coming in who can now expand Joe's ambitions in how he manages games.  

When you look at some of the stars of the Autumn, Conan, Conway, Ruddock.  It seems like years ago - this 6N has a different feel.  New campaign, different selection of players mimicking new week at club level, different players brought in.  

Summer will be different again I'd expect.  Massive games, massive amount resting on a good showing.  With Beirne coming in and likely to get game time, the rotation show will go on - but the prize is still the same, the games are as important.  Players that are part of the Summer tour, and who weren't involved in the 6N, will feel as happy as the current lot if they get a series win (tough challenge!)  Players get their game time rewards along the way but it's all still one process to aim for biggest prize of all.  The younger rookies are too dumb to keep it quiet!  Joe will tell them to keep their enthusiastic mouths shut from here on in.

SecretFly wrote:
When you look at some of the stars of the Autumn, Conan, Conway, Ruddock.  It seems like years ago - this 6N has a different feel.  New campaign, different selection of players mimicking new week at club level, different players brought in.  

Summer will be different again I'd expect.

Luke McGrath, Dillane...more forgotten names.

I think, certainly since the 2015 RWC Joe has been building the panel to have 30-40 players who can slot seamlessly and we are seeing the fruits of that.

In terms of the style of play, the 6N now has the bonus points so that could be a factor in the more attacking approach but I think the slickness in the passing and interplay is similar to what we saw at Leinster around 2012-14, the style many expected he'd bring to Ireland maybe it has just taken much longer to embed.

Physically the players have improved also, we are much more dominant in the collisions and that is helping us create the space.

Things have definitely ramped up a gear since last Summer in a lot of ways.

Imagine how good Ireland could have been if we had Zeebs and Donnacha Ryan. Probably would have been a BP every match.

Tries, tries, tries! We've finally began to open up. 8 tries in the last 2 matches against England and Wales. In the previous 3 seasons they were averaging less than 1 try per game against those teams.


There's been less kicking and less one out runners. In all the attack has been transformed which is what most of the complaining was about. So fair play to JS.


The riskier approach has also been shown with his willingness to blood young players. Now, last year I had Larmour, J Ryan and Stockdale in my team for the world cup so those players were well flagged but Schmidt has integrated them into the squad superbly. I'd say the loss to Argentina is something he is determined not to happen again.

I reckon there has been more kicking. I dont think we were kicking enough in the last two years.

Also Schmidt has been very consistent year on year with the number of new caps. Nothing new this year.

I felt like there was less kicking from us and more retaining possession even when defending those margins in our own half.  
But I didn't do any counting so I stand to be corrected on the numbers.  But it felt a much smoother attack orientated side.... and I really liked what I saw.  Composure, relentless aggression, the desire to punish the opposition any time they let us into their 22 .  It was just a much improved model of Ireland inc to my eyes. I hope we keep progressing and honing this more ruthless beast now throughout the year and into the next one.

We hardly kicked any ball in 2016 in particular. Id be surprised if we kicked more then.

Joe is a lucky coach as well. With injuries ( to the opposition as well as lack of on the Irish side), form of the opposition and maybe the odd reffing decision. You make your own luck of course plus we are unstoppable from 2 metres.

I don’t think he has that much influence on the provinces per se. The proof of that is how sh1t Ulster and Munster are playing at the moment.

He has a lucky draw for the wc. Let’s hope he makes it work in our favour.

Irelands low injury count has a lot to do with Kitman labs analysis of player performance and player management in general. We have also had our fair share of injuries. Henshaw, Ringrose, SOB, Furlong, JVdF, Earls, Conway, Payne, Henderson, Farrell. Injuries just havent had as big an impact as there is always someone ready to step up now.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Joe is a lucky coach as well. With injuries ( to the opposition as well as lack of on the Irish side), form of the opposition and maybe the odd reffing decision. You make your own luck of course plus we are unstoppable from 2 metres.

I don’t think he has that much influence on the provinces per se. The proof of that is how sh1t Ulster and Munster are playing at the moment.

He has a lucky draw for the wc. Let’s hope he makes it work in our favour.

Still can't credit the man. Haha. How many injuries to key players did kidney have in 2009? Ferris in game 5? Can't think of others. But that wasn't luck of course.
We didn't say he had influence over the provinces, but that he kept tabs with the players.

Collapse2005 wrote:Irelands low injury count has a lot to do with Kitman labs analysis of player performance and player management in general. We have also had our fair share of injuries. Henshaw, Ringrose, SOB, Furlong, JVdF, Earls, Conway, Payne, Henderson, Farrell. Injuries just havent had as big an impact as there is always someone ready to step up now.

Think you've mentioned this before, Collapse, but I can't help thinking that all top teams - certainly Wales and England (who have always seemed obsessed with the advantages that science can bring to those performance percentages) - have access to some pretty impressive analytics at British level considering the level of performance based science that is involved in the UKs priority sports at Olympics (example - cycling)
England have the bucks to have micro detailed info on all their players.  As one guy said on Off The Ball (can't remember who) but he couldn't understand that IF English players were 'knackered' during the 6N, surely the data coming in from the many science guys surrounding England's journey to the WC would have exposed it and told Eddie to lay off on the heavy duty training or choose different players?  Maybe that's Eddie's main weakness - he ignores the advice coming to him form his performance experts?

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Irelands low injury count has a lot to do with Kitman labs analysis of player performance and player management in general. We have also had our fair share of injuries. Henshaw, Ringrose, SOB, Furlong, JVdF, Earls, Conway, Payne, Henderson, Farrell. Injuries just havent had as big an impact as there is always someone ready to step up now.

Think you've mentioned this before, Collapse, but I can't help thinking that all top teams - certainly Wales and England (who have always seemed obsessed with the advantages that science can bring to those performance percentages) - have access to some pretty impressive analytics at British level considering the level of performance based science that is involved in the UKs priority sports at Olympics (example - cycling)

Well they don't you see because any data collected by clubs and regions aren't accessible outside that environment, nor have the RFU influence and control over the methods used to collect player data.

Further more the IRFU have more influence over resting of players and training load than the other countries do.

In response to the point above Schmidt does have influence, via Nucifera, in how the provinces and development teams play. It was one of the stipulations in Schmidt taking the job and something NZ also do, so that players can step up to national level more seamlessly.